Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

silvereyes · May 2020

Thanks, @HankTwo, for finally confirming the source of those statements. I was foolishly hoping that the attribution to Rich that the rumor mill had worked up was false, but it's good to have confirmation either way.

Thogard · May 2020

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust. Very embarrassing for whoever is sharing this.

idk · May 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I agree with Rich that we have not earned the new weapons as they have never been in-game before. We earned the existing weapons that will still be available.

We asked for perfected vMA and Master weapons and I am glad we got them. I will gladly do the time to get the new weapons.

Not really, VMA weapons had 1pc bonuses before, and were removed.

Now bonuses are added back to these weapons, and come from the very difficulty/mode we have already farmed.

I wonder how people would feel if they removed the stat bonuses from Perf Lokke for example, and than later added them back, but not to existing items, so you would have to re-farm them

Beacuse thats basically whats happening, and thats why so many people are upset.

Or imagine ZOS decided to remove 50% of your gold from your account, and told you to regrind it.

Your account of what has happened with the vMA weapons is rather inaccurate.

The original design of the weapon did not permit a player to enchant it as we can today. When Zos removed the static damage stat they made it so we could enchant the weapon without losing the ability altering aspect of the weapon. This also means your analogy of the gold is completely wrong and irrelevant.

There has never been a vMA weapon that was ability altering, had a static damage stat, and could be enchanted.

So again, Rich is completely correct that we have never earned this new type of vMA weapon.

zaria · May 2020

Derra wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

Just that it´s not new stuff.

ZOS nerfed the old weapons to then introduce "new ones" that reintroduce the bonus that they originally patched away.

It´s like a car company selling you a car with 4 seats in 2018.
Then they steal two seats during annual checkup in 2019.
Then they reintroduce the same car you already bought with 4 seats as a "new" 2020 model and kindly tell you that you may purchase it again if you want 4 seats for the same price that you ALREADY paid in 2018.

If that isn´t a scam i don´t know what is.
I don´t know how someone can make such a statement with a straight face - which considering the various "heh" comments he was probably laughing his behind off about how stupid we customers are.

How was the old version? Did not do either before the change.
tried looking at elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com but they did not have anything about this.
As I understand you had an extra bonus and the set bonus was an enchant as some ruined an vMA weapon changing its enchant, this was before transmuting during the sharpened meta.

HankTwo · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust just because you disagree with someone.

Trust me, I thought a lot about if I should post this or not. The reasons why I decided to do it are:

1) The account is listed as an official eso dev on the official eso discord
2) The topic discussed is of general concern for a relevant portion of the playerbase
3) Nothing private was discussed, the whole thing revolves around an in-game issue and nothing else
4) The car quote was already thrown around the forum as something Rich Lambert said, but there were a lot of rumors and no affirmation of its origin
5) ZOS refused to make a public statement on the official eso website, which I strongly believe players deserve (they promised to improve communication but it arguably got even worse)

Sephyr · May 2020

HankTwo wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust just because you disagree with someone.

Trust me, I thought a lot about if I should post this or not. The reasons why I decided to do it are:

1) The account is listed as an official eso dev on the official eso discord
2) The topic discussed is of general concern for a relevant portion of the playerbase
3) Nothing private was discussed, the whole thing revolves around an in-game issue and nothing else
4) The car quote was already thrown around the forum as something Rich Lambert said, but there were a lot of rumors and no affirmation of its origin
5) ZOS refused to make a public statement on the official eso website, which I strongly believe players deserve (they promised to improve communication but it arguably got even worse)

Thank you for stepping in where they won't. If they're not going to say this on the public forum, they should not be saying this anywhere else. Can they legally? Of course. But it does NOT make them look transparent at all.

OtarTheMad · May 2020

Look, I don't see the problem. I don't even see it as a big deal BECAUSE the new perfected weapons don't add that much power. Regrinding for them is a choice NOT a necessity which is good. Also to use an argument like change they made making them a set bonus vs an enchantment isn't that smart because like @tmbrinks said, that was a buff.

I am glad that ESO isn't like other games who raise the cap level with each expansion, that would be murder to regrind stuff all the time. This game really isn't that grindy, at least when it comes to gear.

Also to use what looks like a private conversation against ZOS isn't a good idea and I hope it doesn't affect any use of discord by the devs. I love the official ESO discord, it makes it so easy to find things game related.

silvereyes · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust. Very embarrassing for whoever is sharing this.

Not really. There are certainly communication channels where one has the expectation of privacy, but a direct message from a company rep to a customer about a product on an official account is not one of them.

zaria · May 2020

idk wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I agree with Rich that we have not earned the new weapons as they have never been in-game before. We earned the existing weapons that will still be available.

We asked for perfected vMA and Master weapons and I am glad we got them. I will gladly do the time to get the new weapons.

Not really, VMA weapons had 1pc bonuses before, and were removed.

Now bonuses are added back to these weapons, and come from the very difficulty/mode we have already farmed.

I wonder how people would feel if they removed the stat bonuses from Perf Lokke for example, and than later added them back, but not to existing items, so you would have to re-farm them

Beacuse thats basically whats happening, and thats why so many people are upset.

Or imagine ZOS decided to remove 50% of your gold from your account, and told you to regrind it.

Your account of what has happened with the vMA weapons is rather inaccurate.

The original design of the weapon did not permit a player to enchant it as we can today. When Zos removed the static damage stat they made it so we could enchant the weapon without losing the ability altering aspect of the weapon. This also means your analogy of the gold is completely wrong and irrelevant.

There has never been a vMA weapon that was ability altering, had a static damage stat, and could be enchanted.

So again, Rich is completely correct that we have never earned this new type of vMA weapon.

You kind of explains how this worked, originaly you had an damage buff, an enchant who was the arena effect so you could not enchant the weapon as it would destroy it, some did that.
How did this work with two weapons as in DW? Sets makes so much more sense.
And letting you enchant is worth far more than the perfected buff but perhaps the old buff was larger.

Now they could just change the existing weapons into perfected, its just to buff them a bit and give new names, then have the normal version being being the new set.

kapachia · May 2020

ZOS did not at least nerfed current vMA weapon to make it worthless. They are just buffing a new vMA/vDSA drops. I get their arguement. We should just thank them for not nerfing current weapons, right?

I figure, vMA/vDSA are ignored by most ESO players once we got our weapons. Who wants to just grind same thing over and over again. Unless you are shooting for that top score in the world. So instead of keep making relevant solo or group arena to keep engage customers, ZOS just wants to recycle old contents and make all of do it over again.

Maybe just leaving vMA/vDSA alone without perfected version would have been better and not annoy everyone. Yes, current version works OK. But once perfected version is available, we all have to do it again (since that is the essence of ever grinding MMO for gears).

Yes, bois and gurls. You all have to retake your Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, Analysis, Combinatorics, and etc all over again. Let's restart from kindergarten.

Casul · May 2020

I still want an official on the forums statement.

precambria · May 2020

It does if we bloody well PAYED for the new one already by doing the vet content, it's also not a car or a TV that you expect to be updated and changed every 8 months it was a item that only had 1 kind in existence which is the vet one which is the one we now have which should be considered as the vet one...... the logic....it's overwhelming

daemonor · May 2020

Upopular opinion, but hes probably right on the fact that they're not taking any power away from you, theyre adding something more powerful that everyone has the chance to go and grind for.

OtarTheMad · May 2020

I also want to mention that a lifetime ago in this game, back when veteran ranks were a thing, Master Weapons used to drop in normal. They changed that though obviously. I used to have a Master weapon that I got in normal but when they increased the veteran levels I just decon'd it. (this was before CP system)

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

daemonor wrote: »

Upopular opinion, but hes probably right on the fact that they're not taking any power away from you, theyre adding something more powerful that everyone has the chance to go and grind for.

They should've added new hardmode VMA for perfection versions then (and let regular items drop in normal). Then it won't be a boring grind at least, but some new content.

silvereyes · May 2020

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I also want to mention that a lifetime ago in this game, back when veteran ranks were a thing, Master Weapons used to drop in normal. They changed that though obviously. I used to have a Master weapon that I got in normal but when they increased the veteran levels I just decon'd it. (this was before CP system)

Yeah, and that gear cap increase was sooooo fun, right?!

I get the distinct impression that the arena weapons are just the tip of the iceberg. Prepare yourself for perfected monster set pieces in Update 27, and a gear cap increase whenever they finally get around to reworking the Champion system.

Enjoy the grind. I'm out.

OtarTheMad · May 2020

silvereyes wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I also want to mention that a lifetime ago in this game, back when veteran ranks were a thing, Master Weapons used to drop in normal. They changed that though obviously. I used to have a Master weapon that I got in normal but when they increased the veteran levels I just decon'd it. (this was before CP system)

Yeah, and that gear cap increase was sooooo fun, right?!

I get the distinct impression that the arena weapons are just the tip of the iceberg. Prepare yourself for perfected monster set pieces in Update 27, and a gear cap increase whenever they finally get around to reworking the Champion system.

Enjoy the grind. I'm out.

God they were annoying but it's been at CP 160 for quite some time and I don't see that changing, at least not in 2020.

xaraan · May 2020

Well, like I said, we can see that discussions with streamers and some players have gone on behind the scenes because they were all on the same page with their spin.

But no, it's not like buying a new car or whatever and there is a reason people use straw man arguments - b/c they need a different example to prove their point b/c the actual example doesn't work.

In the end, this is the same as raising the gear cap to 180 and making everyone regrind the same gear. It's "NEW" but not really new. It doesn't matter if you keep your old gear, it will not be weaker, but in relation, yes it will be weaker.

It's also what some players like about ESO vs other games- that it's not a gear grind for the same gear at a new level all the time. It's unfortunate one of the lead devs cares more about sticking it to players than taking care of them.

silvereyes · May 2020

OtarTheMad wrote: »

t's been at CP 160 for quite some time and I don't see that changing, at least not in 2020.

Yeah, well, most of us didn't see our time grinding vet arena weapons being invalidated in 2020 either, so...

Kind of makes one wonder why even bother grinding any content that has been around more than a year or two, if they are just going to rework the rewards system in a patch or two to drop younger, more attractive models and relegate the older vet rewards to normal.

Ragnaroek93 · May 2020

xaraan wrote: »

It's also what some players like about ESO vs other games- that it's not a gear grind for the same gear at a new level all the time. It's unfortunate one of the lead devs cares more about sticking it to players than taking care of them.

Exactly this. If this game becomes a WoW copy then why should I play the copy instead of the original?

WrathOfInnos · May 2020

TBH this doesn’t bother me much. The logic in the car analogy is valid, and I used a similar example myself before I’d heard about Rich’s comments. I recall someone else comparing it to the new model of phones released each year, and that one made sense too. Sure it would be nice if we all got free upgrades, but expecting it seems a little naive and entitled. They want us to keep doing the content, it’s not just a gift.

Things that do bother me are:
- vAS Destruction Staff becoming useless, 3 casts per proc makes it inferior to Ele Weapon or the Charged Trait (saving 2 set items)
- Master Destruction Staff being reworked so it isn’t effective for AoE/trash builds
- Blackrose Destruction Staff, the intended AoE/trash weapon, remaining useless (never ticks if using ring/pulsar as a spammable)
- Maelstrom Staff getting Spell Pen (the most useless back bar bonus), making the normal and perfect versions virtually the same for DPS (no incentive to earn the new one)
- All of the Perfected set bonuses being 80% of a standard set bonus. Just make them the same as everything else, 0.4-0.5% more DPS isn’t going to break anything

Is there a reason why every Magicka DPS arena weapon needs a major design flaw? Most of the Stamina DPS arena weapons are great.

SpiderCultist · May 2020

ESO is for casuals and grinders

not what it was in the beginning but what's become

thanks @ OP

Starlock · May 2020

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust. Very embarrassing for whoever is sharing this.

The lack of communication from ZOS is what is cringe

For consideration:

I think we need to keep in mind that large organizations - whether private sector or public sector - typically have protocols in place regarding who can talk about their products/services. In some cases, discussing things without authorization can result in disciplinary action or termination of employment. The "lack of communication" from Zenimax Media and its subsidiaries is doubtless symptomatic of this sort of PR-regulated environment. Employees can only communicate what they are allowed to.

I sincerely hope Lambert doesn't suffer any backlash because some member of our community decided it was proper to share a private conversation. I hope our community member considered this possibility when they decided to post this.

That aside, it is also not atypical for communications/PR managers to avoid commenting on customer complaints publicly. Often that's to help protect the company image, profit margins, customer privacy, etc. And it works, for the most part. Most time, customer complaints stir up the pot for a few days, maybe a week or two... and inevitably folks stop making a fuss and it blows over. The incentive for a business to change its strategy and make amends isn't there unless there is constant pressure, which rarely happens. This is not to say all companies work this way - far from it. But it is the norm for AAA publishers.

mavfin · May 2020

See, I don't see what the big deal is. They made new models, made it easier to get the older models, and moved on.

This happens all the time in MMOs. Old gear gets deprecated and/or replaced. Ok, so ESO hasn't done much of this in the past, but, if they're not going to make a new gear level above 50/160, then some things will start changing, like this change.

All I see is a bunch of people wanting 'compensation' for something, so they can have a free buff.

If you want the new weapons, go get them. Otherwise, get over it, imo.

EDIT: There will be more of this for the same reason I mentioned, as time goes on *or*, some expansion in a year or two will raise the gear level to 50/200 or 50/300 or <some other number>, and the people who are freaking out about just the Maelstrom weapons will lose their minds...

WrathOfInnos · May 2020

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

The_Auror · May 2020

God forbid we get actual new content to grind for better gear. That new trial coming out would have been the perfect opportunity.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · May 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust. Very embarrassing for whoever is sharing this.

The lack of communication from ZOS is what is cringe

For consideration:

I think we need to keep in mind that large organizations - whether private sector or public sector - typically have protocols in place regarding who can talk about their products/services. In some cases, discussing things without authorization can result in disciplinary action or termination of employment. The "lack of communication" from Zenimax Media and its subsidiaries is doubtless symptomatic of this sort of PR-regulated environment. Employees can only communicate what they are allowed to.

I sincerely hope Lambert doesn't suffer any backlash because some member of our community decided it was proper to share a private conversation. I hope our community member considered this possibility when they decided to post this.

That aside, it is also not atypical for communications/PR managers to avoid commenting on customer complaints publicly. Often that's to help protect the company image, profit margins, customer privacy, etc. And it works, for the most part. Most time, customer complaints stir up the pot for a few days, maybe a week or two... and inevitably folks stop making a fuss and it blows over. The incentive for a business to change its strategy and make amends isn't there unless there is constant pressure, which rarely happens. This is not to say all companies work this way - far from it. But it is the norm for AAA publishers.

They have communicated a lot in the last few years, Mr Lambert stepping in quickly on occasion to much praise from the community. That is why this case is strange, and I'm going to hand my praise over the OP.

Kadoin · May 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

I'm going to do vma on Monday for my imperfect reward, and get my perfect reward in the weekly mail 😂

I never got a weekly reward from vMA, careful.

HankTwo · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

The comparison doesn't work perfectly, because as you said, those sets could be earned in both normal and veteran. However, with master weapons for example this isn't the case, because they could only be earned in veteran to begin with. Closest thing we have in comparison are the monster masks I'd say. So, if ZOS would decide to move current monster masks to normal and introduce perfected ones in veteran while the content stays unchanged we would arguably have the same situation as we have right now with master weapons (with maelstrom weapons its a bit more complicated as we know).

And I would be strongly against that. Eso isn't like other mmos in this regard. Horizontal, not vertical, progression is a hallmark of this game. Over the years they actually reduced the amount of grinding you have to do (transmutation, undanted boxes, ...), and I really appreciated that. In sharp contrast, they now try to implement new grind mechanics without new content, and thats totally new to this game.

LuxLunae · May 2020

I played VMA and stopped after a few tries...I saw my bro pull his hair out getting to the end...It wasn't worth it to me at all...

I have accepted that I won't be the best at this game. I won't have the BIS, nor will I ever finish vMoL and get the skin.