Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

HankTwo · May 2020

For the people who are wondering about the origins of that car quote that was thrown around the forums, it originates from Rich Lambert himself. A friend of mine had a discussion with him on discord on the day ZOS posted the update 26 combat preview. The thread in which I originally planned to post this got nuked earlier this week (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/527600/ive-never-seen-a-worse-pts-in-my-life/p1), so here you go:

By now, I guess this is the closest thing to an "official" explanation that we'll ever get. And no, I'm not naming and shaming, I asked my friend if its ok to post this on the forum:

The last person involved in this conversation, Slashlurk, is Rich Lambert, creative director and ZOS official. You can see him here on the official eso discord: https://discord.gg/elderscrollsonline
I hope this clarifies stuff. If ZOS wants to give me a forum ban for posting this, so be it. Cheers.

Edit: fixed the discord link.

Taunky · May 2020

Not surprised.

Ackwalan · May 2020

He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · May 2020

Wow if this is true...those answers...

Is this guy a responsible working adult representing his profession or an in game troll? (slashlurk)
oO

Mindcr0w · May 2020

Hmmm. So if I have a "2018" item set, and in 2020 that item set gets nerfed, it won't automatically get updated to the "2020" version? I get to keep my 2018 version?

Attackopsn · May 2020

*Reapplies original stats they intentionally removed several years ago so that you have to refarm the bonuses that dropped on release of vma* “jUst bEcAusE yOu bOuGht it in 2018 doEsN’t mEaN yoU gEt tHe 2020”

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2020

Well... I hardly doubt it could be him (slashlurk = Rich Lambert).
I refuse to believe that Creative Director of ESO is a [snip]

[Edited to remove Profanity]

goldenarcher1 · May 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Hmmm. So if I have a "2018" item set, and in 2020 that item set gets nerfed, it won't automatically get updated to the "2020" version? I get to keep my 2018 version?

NavalOffisah · May 2020

That car logic would make sense if this was a brand new arena and people wanted the weapons from that for free. But this is like taking that 2018 car that you own, rebadging it as 2020, then saying guys you can't just have the 2020 for free when its actually the 2018 you already owned the whole time.

HankTwo · May 2020

Here is his official twitter for people who doubt this is legit:

https://twitter.com/SlashLurk

That being said, please keep it civil people, even if you disagree with what was said. This thread will be locked for sure if people start to directly bash Rich Lambert.

Edit: and from the original eso discord:

Jacozilla · May 2020

NavalOffisah wrote: »

That car logic would make sense if this was a brand new arena and people wanted the weapons from that for free. But this is like taking that 2018 car that you own, rebadging it as 2020, then saying guys you can't just have the 2020 for free when its actually the 2018 you already owned the whole time.

Agreed. But an even better reply to the analogy needs to include that for many of us, we once owned the original VMA weapons pre-original nerf.

So using this car analogy, it would be I had 2018 model w/600 hp engine, had the car forcibly confiscated and given back a 2019 model with 400hp engine, then had that same 2019 model with 400hp engine rebadged as "2020" model and told I need to rebuy my own car with weaker features than the 2018 I originally owned.

eKsDee · May 2020

Ackwalan wrote: »

He's right. Just because you bought a 2018 car doesn't mean you get the 2020 model when it comes out.

Traditionally is a game with levels, all gear becomes worthless when a new expansion comes out. ESO does not use traditional level system, but that doesn't mean you get the new stuff handed to you.

This would be right, if they recalled all 2018 models in the field, updated the computer to artificially limit the power output of the engine, released them back into the field in a global 2019 recall, then released a new model in 2020 that is literally the exact same car, just without the artificial power output limit.

Because that's literally what has happened. Both Maelstrom and Master weapons, when they were still enchant bonuses, had 1-piece bonus equivalents baked into the enchant bonuses (likely as compensation for not being able to run a different enchant, though circumstances were different back then as I don't believe back bar enchant procs worked back then as they do today).

When they changed them to act as set bonuses, they removed the 1-piece bonus equivalent, and now they've reimplemented them, and are telling us that we should regrind the same old content (that really hasn't even been updated at all, it'd be way different if they introduced a new difficulty mode that dropped the Perfected variants), just to get back the bonus that used to be on the items, the bonus that they removed.

The real kicker is the fact that these aren't even that much of an upgrade, which is why I'm not that upset about it (I'm upset, but not really angry, just disappointed/confused). No, the real kicker is the fact that you can get the same item at like 95% power level, by just running the arenas on normal, which are far, far easier to complete.

Which is why I'm not even going to be rerunning the content. It's barely an upgrade, maybe a few percent at most, that only applies when you're on your back bar, so in reality it's only a fraction of a percent better across your whole rotation. Why the hell would I regrind Maelstrom on vet, when I can just smash it out on normal half a dozen times in a row, and basically get the main benefit that these items bring?

Twilanthe · May 2020

So his attitude as the creative director leaves much to be desired. But at the same time I don't think the point of his argument is wrong.

It is like any other MMO. You spend countless hours getting the shiny BIS staff. A new update drops and suddenly it isn't BIS anymore, there is a new one you need to get, and the one you have is not only outdated, but easily obtainable by the masses. That is how MMOs work, its the carrot on the stick that keeps people playing. It only feels different because the way ESO does endgame is a little different.

Katahdin · May 2020

Yes and there was a many page thread in the Combat and Character Mechaics board that was totally ignored.

Its a slap in the face to everyone that spent hours and hours grinding those places to get those weapons and now we will have to do it again. It sucks big time and I would much rather spend my time playing the new content.

And before anyones says "no one is forcing you to". If you are part of an end game trials group, you are expected to because every little bit of increased stats per character, multiplied by 12 makes a difference.

Hurbster · May 2020

Could be worse, at least we don't get to throw ALL of our toys away every expansion as we chase the latest 'borrowed power'.

Iskiab · May 2020

Yea, he’s right. If it makes you feel better they should have just given them new names so you’d understand they’re different items.

Elsonso · May 2020

Thanks for posting. The answer people were looking for.

It is not an upgrade to the existing weapon, it is a new weapon. The old weapon is still exactly as it was before. The old one cannot be turned in as an exchange for the new one. If the players want the new one, they can farm it.

This is basically what has been said in here by numerous players.

I repeat that they probably should have just left the veteran reward and added a nerfed version for the normal, rather than trying to make a new top tier reward. I figure almost no one would have complained about that, even though there is not a more powerful weapon to collect.

This also proves @robertthebard right. I concede the battle.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2020

NavalOffisah wrote: »

That car logic would make sense if this was a brand new arena and people wanted the weapons from that for free. But this is like taking that 2018 car that you own, rebadging it as 2020, then saying guys you can't just have the 2020 for free when its actually the 2018 you already owned the whole time.

Yep, if it was new content (even cheaply made, like vMA II / vDA II with slightly different mechanics slapped in) that would be Ok. What is not Ok is that they added new gear, without adding new content. Even when they added new PvP cyro crafted sets, they added new location with those crafting stations. New tiny rooms, but still - it was new content.

As far as I recall, it is the 1st time ZOS did something like this.

Now it simply looks like they buffed the sets where they drop, but not the ones that already have dropped and are in your inventory. What is even more troubling is that now we know they can do it any time to any set. Imagine for example perfected overland sets or perfected crafted sets. Sure, those are not that hard to farm as those are tradeable - but it is still a time investment you have to do. Even if that means farming crafting mats to be able to craft & upgrade gear to gold quality - a grind is a grind. And the fact that ZOS does not respect that time is very disturbing.

HankTwo · May 2020

Twilanthe wrote: »

So his attitude as the creative director leaves much to be desired. But at the same time I don't think the point of his argument is wrong.

It is like any other MMO. You spend countless hours getting the shiny BIS staff. A new update drops and suddenly it isn't BIS anymore, there is a new one you need to get, and the one you have is not only outdated, but easily obtainable by the masses. That is how MMOs work, its the carrot on the stick that keeps people playing. It only feels different because the way ESO does endgame is a little different.

Its definitely a paradigm change in eso, though, since:

1) Even if the values of sets got changed, afaik the set IDs themselves, that dropped from PvE content never ever changed for the worse. This will happen with the next patch though. Veteran master and maelstrom arena after the patch will give better combat relevant rewards than before the patch.

2) Whenever a set got changed in the past, every single piece of that set previously earned by players got changed as well. Again, it never mattered in the past if I farmed a set before a patch or after.

Edit: Think about it this way, would you be fine with ZOS releasing better 'perfected' versions of already existing sets for every veteran dungeon in the game, even if the content itself didn't change? It opens up the potential for an endless grind without even the need to release new content.

Mindcr0w · May 2020

Twilanthe wrote: »

It is like any other MMO. You spend countless hours getting the shiny BIS staff. A new update drops and suddenly it isn't BIS anymore, there is a new one you need to get, and the one you have is not only outdated, but easily obtainable by the masses. That is how MMOs work, its the carrot on the stick that keeps people playing.

In most "any other MMO" the new BiS item would drop from new content. They wouldn't just add new gear to old content.

Also, as has been stated countless times, this isn't even technically adding something new to the game. It is restoring something that was previously taken away

huntgod_ESO · May 2020

It's more an issue that the weapons are now being given out in normal than that they've added perfected to veteran.

It would have made far more sense to add an imperfect version to normal and leave the vet alone, or as someone else mentioned adding a new difficulty for perfected versions.

So I am clear, I couldn't be happier that I can run normals and get the weapons since I was unwilling to grind Vet over and over for a 3-4% DPS increase. I do understand completely the frustration and irritation by the players who did grind it out.

mairwen85 · May 2020

Wow... Just wow, that attitude when speaking directly to a player. No wonder no one bothered to address the threads on the forums. Mind boggles that you'd have a crap chat on discord but not your official forum. 😂

Taunky · May 2020

My friend sent me this. Not exactly sure what it's regarding but it sure does look sketchy.

daemonios · May 2020

For me the issue is not needing to get new gear from time to time. Never was. That's par for the course in an MMO. My issue is needing to grind gear that I have already grinded in the past, doing 5-year-old content, instead of new gear from new content. It basically gives ZOS carte blanche to keep us chasing old content indefinitely while putting out little to no new content.

Twilanthe · May 2020

HankTwo wrote: »

Twilanthe wrote: »

So his attitude as the creative director leaves much to be desired. But at the same time I don't think the point of his argument is wrong.

It is like any other MMO. You spend countless hours getting the shiny BIS staff. A new update drops and suddenly it isn't BIS anymore, there is a new one you need to get, and the one you have is not only outdated, but easily obtainable by the masses. That is how MMOs work, its the carrot on the stick that keeps people playing. It only feels different because the way ESO does endgame is a little different.

Its definitely a paradigm change in eso, though, since:

1) Even if the values of sets got changed, afaik the set IDs themselves, that dropped from PvE content never ever changed for the worse. This will happen with the next patch though. Veteran master and maelstrom arena after the patch will give better combat relevant rewards than before the patch.

2) Whenever a set got changed in the past, every single piece of that set previously earned by players got changed as well. Again, it never mattered in the past if I farmed a set before a patch or after.

Edit: Think about it this way, would you be fine with ZOS releasing better 'perfected' versions of already existing sets for every veteran dungeon in the game, even if the content itself didn't change? It opens up the potential for an endless grind without even the need to release new content.

Oh, I did not understand that it was changes to the same set? I wrongfully assumed they were adding new sets to vet content and moving the old sets to normal.

If that is the case, and it is the same set, just buffed then that does change things.

Though will the unbuffed version still be obtainable? Because if so then even though the name is changed its still kind of a new set.

Mechanically its the same as like, if instead of adding a new set they added some crafting material you could use to upgrade it and make it more powerful, and put those behind a new grind. either way you're working to progress character power.

I dunno, it just seems to me like this is how MMOs work. And I never really liked it, but its kind of "working as intended" and a battle that can't be won short of making our own game that does it different/better and breaks the grind trend.

mairwen85 · May 2020

I'm going to do vma on Monday for my imperfect reward, and get my perfect reward in the weekly mail 😂

Firstmep · May 2020

Eso WAS a great game beacuse once you get to 160 gear, you never have to regrind it agian, not to mention transmutation.

This directly goes aganist the core phylosophy of the game.

Vaoh · May 2020

And then players wonder why PTS feedback threads are ignored. They read everything and went all “we are correct and everyone else is wrong heh”.

Sad to see. Imagine the most official ZOS statements we get now are coming from Discord DMs.... heh

VaranisArano · May 2020

Aside from the general "we'll make players spend time regrinding", it makes a certain amount of sense as a "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" move.

VMA weapons have long been held as a necessity for end-game content, particularly the destro staff and bow.

Raise the floor: those weapons are now available in the much easier normal difficulty
Lower the ceiling: the new stat bonuses are relatively minor and will require regrinding VMA

Will it work?

Honestly, I think the journey of triumphing over VMA did more to forge end-game-ready players than the weapons did.

NavalOffisah · May 2020

Taunky wrote: »

My friend sent me this. Not exactly sure what it's regarding but it sure does look sketchy.

It looks like it was from March 2018 so definitely nothing to do with VMA weapons

Ascarl · May 2020

Jacozilla wrote: »

NavalOffisah wrote: »

That car logic would make sense if this was a brand new arena and people wanted the weapons from that for free. But this is like taking that 2018 car that you own, rebadging it as 2020, then saying guys you can't just have the 2020 for free when its actually the 2018 you already owned the whole time.

Agreed. But an even better reply to the analogy needs to include that for many of us, we once owned the original VMA weapons pre-original nerf.

So using this car analogy, it would be I had 2018 model w/600 hp engine, had the car forcibly confiscated and given back a 2019 model with 400hp engine, then had that same 2019 model with 400hp engine rebadged as "2020" model and told I need to rebuy my own car with weaker features than the 2018 I originally owned.

Nope, the new maelstorm weapons have the same stats as the old model.

By the way, not cars but TVs and computers. You often get an older model rebranded as a lower tier series for a lower price. The new Intel i5 are basically 2018 i7 etc.