Unpopular Opinion: Killable Guards

Anumaril · May 2020

I'm absolutely in support of this, though it's not necessarily high on my priority list.
Do I think guards should be killable? Yes, but 2-3- should be enough to overwhelm you, and 1 should be a tough fight.
Do I think guards should have more utility? Yes, being able to do simple things like ask a guard for directions, etc, would make the world feel more interactable and alive (i.e. immersive), which I am always in support of.
Even if the killable guards were never implemented, I still think it would be neat to have the interactible aspect to them in the game.

Sange13 · May 2020

willjones1122 wrote: »

I am all for immersion, but unkillable guards is one the least of immersion breaking things in this game. For example you save numerous kings/queens/dukes/peasants etc. And you get a reward of 175 to 300 gold (and maybe a junk item you'll never use) for the quest. Go grocery shopping in daggerfall sometime. 150 gold for a tomato. Yup, a kings life is worth as much as a tomato or two. Save an entire village or 3 and maybe you can make a decent soup.

It's more to do with the fact that something being literally invincible is one of the most immersion-breaking things in the game because it's a type of cheating--it's breaking the rules of combat. As others have stated, there are dozens of other reasons this is a problem, and the weak ass argument of "it would be too easy" doesn't really hold up since there isn't much you can do about it in some circumstances. Beyond that, the "consequences" aren't even interesting--usually it's just that you die and lose your stolen goods, and if it was because you were in an inescapable area, it feels even more like you were cheated.

Thoragaal · May 2020

It would actually like having killable guards.
It's not about "I don't wanna get caught". It's that there's literally no choice once I DO get caught.
I wanna be able to have some options; escape or kill?
Are there too many guards for me to handle then I need to run.
If there's not then maybe I can take the chance of attacking the guard.
Obviously killing a guard should result in a "kill on sight" and a hefty bounty on top of that.

Luke_Flamesword · May 2020

I like idea of killable guards because that gives new gameplay possibilities but I'm afraid that this can cause too much expoliting and trolling by some players. I can imagine empty cities with dead bodies everywhere. Anyway whole idea of sneaking and stealing is "don't get caught", not "just kill anyone who stands on your way". We all know that even buffed NPC have no chance with good player in normal fight...

CMDR_Un1k0rn · May 2020

It's not broken.

Why fix it?

AcadianPaladin · May 2020

If there is a large bounty for killing a guard and the guard is as hard to kill as a dragon, that simply creates a new minigame.

Dragons get killed all the time and who cares about a bounty if you pass all your gold to an alt? Zergs of temporarily goldless guard killers roaming doing 'guard runs' for fun and the ability to loot crowded areas with near impunity? I don't want to overstate concerns (very easy to do on forums due to brevity) but I do harbor some concerns about unintended consequences.

Tandor · May 2020

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I fear that killable guards would become 'training dummies who hit back'. That is, killing guards would become a 'fun challenge' for some. I find duels in crowded areas rude/disruptive and, since that is where guards hang out, there would be plenty of rude/disruptive guard fights, adding to the problem.

Agreed. One of the worst aspects of WoW in its popular days was entering one of the two main cities and seeing a trail of corpses because some guild thought it fun to stomp through all the NPCs. I never saw the point.

Most of the accidental stealing can be prevented by taking a little care in what you do, and not having auto-loot on. That's quite apart from certain addons that assist those PC players who want to use them.

EmEm_Oh · May 2020

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I don't understand the immature desire to go around murderhoboing whole towns, and I've never seen a compelling argument for ZoS to make it trivially easy.

You realize that with killable guards, high CP characters can murder, steal, and loot for basically free money in town with no risk just by getting a good group together? Talk about the meta for gold earning! Get six guys in Daggerfall to keep the guards down and everyone can just strip all the NPCs naked and all the safeboxes bare with no consequence.

Yes, definitely allow this, because some kids want to boost the size of their nethers by bragging about killing guards.

Good points. How about allowing killable guards ONLY if you make out of the town's inner "zone"...allowing for fights outside of it. The inner population would remain protected.

Rake · May 2020

We already have killable guards.
Redguards

Volktair · May 2020

Could be really nice if they are very strong.

Just to see town fight, if ppl whitout bounty will help. It could improve immersion and add dynamics cities. Which right now are just used to go to bank or craft

Tandor · May 2020

TropicsDelight wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

but that aside what your proposing isn't the most...feasible idea as it would result in a group getting together with a trial tier tank...and just...basically taking over an entire town..and before you even think of saying "that wouldn't happen" it would...people are *** like that.

In every MMORPG I have played previously it was the things like that which players got together to do in an effort to make some brief game world change that I remember the most looking back on things.

Those kinds of player driven events are what make a true sandbox MMORPG a sandbox. The efforts to remove any ability to do anything like this creates a dry and boring game world that plays on rails and allows the players to do nothing off the narrow path developers try to strictly enforce.

The level with which ZOS managed to limit the ability to interact in the ESO game world outside of a very limited planned course/path is an engineering marvel, and in many ways created a far less interactive and alive game world than MMORPG's of the past that did not work as hard to restrict players doing things outside the box.

That's all because ESO is a theme park MMO, not a sandbox MMO. The latter allows more freedom because it is needed to make up for the lack of content, and is typically PvP-centred. Theme park MMOs are based more on adventuring and questing, and ESO certainly doesn't lack content these days.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2020

There are a lot of things ZOS can add to justice system (killable guards being one of them).

- Outfit system that would affect bounty:
If you dress up differently, your accumulated bounty will decay faster or even disappear (kinda like re-painting a car in GTA). Unless your crimes will be severe (killing spree for example) - then Guards will also look at what race you are and dressing up differently will be less effective.

- Werewolves who had Transformed into WW & back to human and no one saw that, will mean bounty accumulated during WW form will disappear once you transform back to human (assuming no NPC saw that).
Vampires will also have their bounty reduced if they change their stage, and no NPC saw that.

- If an NPC who was a witness of a crime dies - you will lose the bounty for a crime they saw. No witness means no crime.

- Killing a guard:
Only with Blade of Woe and it will give a huge bounty on your head, even if no one saw that. Just like GTA police is more reactive if you kill policeman vs killing citizens.

- Zone wide crime only:
If you steal an apple in Stonefalls and port to Deshaan - guards will not chase you. Unless you will accumulate enough bounty, so all faction zones will know who you are.
Then there are different factions, so you could port for example from Deshaan to Auridon (from EP to AD) and no one will chase you there (even if you will have a lot of bounty in EP zones). Also, if you will go for absolute ridiculous amount of bounty to be infamous "Tamriel - wide" criminal - then you will ba chased in all zones.

Scottfree2 · May 2020

No, No, No, absolutely not.

I already dislike seeing npc corpses strewn about because some muppet wants to role play mass murder, dont want anything that encourages more of that type of behaviour.

indigorune · May 2020

It's so easy to escape the guards in this game. They don't need to be killable.

Starlock · May 2020

Scottfree2 wrote: »

No, No, No, absolutely not.

I already dislike seeing npc corpses strewn about because some muppet wants to role play mass murder, dont want anything that encourages more of that type of behaviour.

Murder and mayhem isn't the problem as much as the people who do it who lack courtesy. If you're seeing corpses everywhere it's because they don't have the good sense to loot the bodies. Looted bodies disappear very quickly.

FlopsyPrince · May 2020

Any guard that proclaims that "Estre was the true queen" should be killed on the spot by everyone. Clearly a traitor and should not be allowed to be a guard!

I haven't tried it, but I didn't see a way to ban stealing on the PS4. Thus clicking just a bit off by mistake when turning in crafting dailies and you are a thief!

At least the guard is a fair ways away in Alinor (Summerset), but I am trying Velyn Harbor and the guard running the scam stands right nearby. I just liberated the harbor and that scammer claimed I was the thief they were looking for!

I would fry that idiot with my lightning staff if it was possible...!

TropicsDelight · May 2020

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Zergs of temporarily goldless guard killers roaming doing 'guard runs' for fun and the ability to loot crowded areas with near impunity? I don't want to overstate concerns (very easy to do on forums due to brevity) but I do harbor some concerns about unintended consequences.

But.. this is Tamriel, the world is at war, there are NPC raiding parties and groups all over the place, some cities are in ruins and overrun with monsters or NPC groups who destroyed the city and slaughtered the citizens or chased them out.

The only problem with the above? All of that content is static. We never see a city overrun or under attack, we only see peaceful cities that never get attacked or we see overrun cities that were taken over before we got there.

Part of the power of a MMORPG is the fact that player driven content like a raid can actually be both entertaining and bring extra life and vibrance to the world, adding some dynamic content to an otherwise very static game world. This should not be feared by MMORPG designers, this should be embraced.

In Everquest the Velious expansion actually went so far as to create 3 factions and you could make friends with one of the factions and they would function as towns for you while the other two became raiding areas. It was all dynamic and you could change your factions slowly over time by killing the other factions to repair rep in one area or another. It was very cool.

Casterial · May 2020

TropicsDelight wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Zergs of temporarily goldless guard killers roaming doing 'guard runs' for fun and the ability to loot crowded areas with near impunity? I don't want to overstate concerns (very easy to do on forums due to brevity) but I do harbor some concerns about unintended consequences.

But.. this is Tamriel, the world is at war, there are NPC raiding parties and groups all over the place, some cities are in ruins and overrun with monsters or NPC groups who destroyed the city and slaughtered the citizens or chased them out.

The only problem with the above? All of that content is static. We never see a city overrun or under attack, we only see peaceful cities that never get attacked or we see overrun cities that were taken over before we got there.

Part of the power of a MMORPG is the fact that player driven content like a raid can actually be both entertaining and bring extra life and vibrance to the world, adding some dynamic content to an otherwise very static game world. This should not be feared by MMORPG designers, this should be embraced.

In Everquest the Velious expansion actually went so far as to create 3 factions and you could make friends with one of the factions and they would function as towns for you while the other two became raiding areas. It was all dynamic and you could change your factions slowly over time by killing the other factions to repair rep in one area or another. It was very cool.

I do agree, I wish ZOS did better with their PVP and followed through lore. Outside of Cyrodiil it's FAR too peaceful.

And about guards, random city raid events would be cool if guards were killable and it was dynamic

TropicsDelight · May 2020

Scottfree2 wrote: »

I already dislike seeing npc corpses strewn about because some muppet wants to role play mass murder, dont want anything that encourages more of that type of behaviour.

That is usually not roleplaying, that is people doing the Dark Brotherhood. The daily quests they give out send you all over the world to kill random citizens or specific targets and every time I do one of those quests that are I am sent it pretty much the bloodbath you speak of because there are people all over sneaking around to kill people to complete the same quest.

I gotta ask though, "that type of behavior", this is the Elder Scrolls, the world of this game has always been violent, wars, people dying. Is the chaos and death not actually part of the actual world lore? When you go into the wilds you come up to burned out buildings and corpses strewn everywhere. That is Tamriel, that is the Elder Scrolls world we inhabit.

JKorr · May 2020

Casterial wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Why are you using necro skills in towns, near guards? I have more than one necromancer. None of them have even gotten a warning from the guards, let alone insta-killed because of illegal transformations.

If you're dueling, there just might possibly be open space free of guards and problems OUTSIDE of town. Just a few miles with no restrictions or guards.....

One issue is, guards will actually run from across the map to wack you sometimes randomly like its a glitch.

In Riften for example, people will duel where no guard is in sight, then a guard sprints from a bridge, across the bridge, to the tavern, wacks you, then god mods himself to speed 300% and sprints back.

I still haven't seen a clear argument as to why guards shouldn't be killable, just people going "Leave it as is"

Gosh. Its almost like the guards don't appreciate people trying to kill each other IN TOWN. I mean, Riften isn't all the large. The areas OUTSIDE the town walls is a heck of a lot larger than the space IN the town. Lots to flat areas, open spaces, no wayshrine to get in the way of the duelists, no npcs or players to be harassed or effected by AOEs being fired off....

People who want to duel should be immediately ported to Boethiah's pocket dimenion arena. Away from town, away from the wayshrines, banks, crafting stations and taverns. That way no overly protective guard would be able to "run in and whack you" because you're not fighting IN TOWN.

Casterial · May 2020

JKorr wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Why are you using necro skills in towns, near guards? I have more than one necromancer. None of them have even gotten a warning from the guards, let alone insta-killed because of illegal transformations.

If you're dueling, there just might possibly be open space free of guards and problems OUTSIDE of town. Just a few miles with no restrictions or guards.....

One issue is, guards will actually run from across the map to wack you sometimes randomly like its a glitch.

In Riften for example, people will duel where no guard is in sight, then a guard sprints from a bridge, across the bridge, to the tavern, wacks you, then god mods himself to speed 300% and sprints back.

I still haven't seen a clear argument as to why guards shouldn't be killable, just people going "Leave it as is"

Gosh. Its almost like the guards don't appreciate people trying to kill each other IN TOWN. I mean, Riften isn't all the large. The areas OUTSIDE the town walls is a heck of a lot larger than the space IN the town. Lots to flat areas, open spaces, no wayshrine to get in the way of the duelists, no npcs or players to be harassed or effected by AOEs being fired off....

People who want to duel should be immediately ported to Boethiah's pocket dimenion arena. Away from town, away from the wayshrines, banks, crafting stations and taverns. That way no overly protective guard would be able to "run in and whack you" because you're not fighting IN TOWN.

[snip]

You must have never been to Riften, but please go to the inn and see why people duel there.

Also, Whats your reasoning to unkillable guards? Your reason sounds like "So I dont lag in cities" get a better PC lol

[Edited to remove Baiting]

VoxAdActa · May 2020

Tell you what.

Guards are killable, but only if it flips a PvP switch on you and all the other players in the zone can help the guards kick your butt.

How's that for immersion?

Casterial · May 2020

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Tell you what.

Guards are killable, but only if it flips a PvP switch on you and all the other players in the zone can help the guards kick your butt.

How's that for immersion?

Sure, as long as the players who attack me also can be attacked back. Lol

Thoragaal · May 2020

Casterial wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Tell you what.

Guards are killable, but only if it flips a PvP switch on you and all the other players in the zone can help the guards kick your butt.

How's that for immersion?

Sure, as long as the players who attack me also can be attacked back. Lol

Sort of like contested territory in WoW; can only be attacked once you've attacked the enemy.
I like this idea even more now!

Eifleber · May 2020

*

We already have people "sneaking" around in towns killing NPCs in broad daylight in front of lots of other players. Quite annoying to leave your house and see players sneak up to the cleaning lady and kill her from behind. All the time. Sometimes there's even multiple bodies lying around.
I find that extremely un-immersive. Especially annoying if it's quest givers like the Fighting guild crafting trainer in N Elseweyr that seems to be more often dead than not.

Keep guards unkillable. If you want to kill guards play WoW.
*

finehair · May 2020

Casterial wrote: »

In Summary:
Make guards killable, tune them to be like a mini boss fight, something you really should run away from, but can fight if you really want to.

you do realise people would start hunting down guards just to prove their insane dps? they will be the new dps dummies

even "not mini boss" fight mechanics are being cheesed because of high dps, those guards have no chance just saying

Gundug · May 2020

I would enjoy guards no longer being immortal if they were on par with a vet DLC dungeon boss or DLC world boss, and player bounties no longer had a decay.

robertthebard · May 2020

Casterial wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No. Just don't steal and don't use illegal abilities in town.
I say that as someone who often steals coins from the banker without meaning to.

The fact is, you can steal when trying to interact with crafting writs, guild stores, or just exploring. Its pretty bad that you'll randomly steal and usually results in a guard beating you to death. Also, a class shouldn't be punished, especially for people who paid $40 for it.

Why are you opposed to guards being killable? Does it ruin your immersion? Because for me, a person not being killable means they're a Daedric Prince, and clearly.... They are not.

You know, I'd probably agree, if it weren't for the big red warning labels about specific abilities within LoS of guards? Sorry, but that smells a lot more like "I don't want consequences" than anything else. I've certainly never started a campaign to make them killable when I've been caught out pickpocketing, or assassinating NPCs, you know, doing illegal things and being caught by guards? Personally, I like that they can't be killed because it adds some spice to these activities.

DovahkiinHeart · May 2020

Laughs in add-ons

Sevn · May 2020

finehair wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

In Summary:
Make guards killable, tune them to be like a mini boss fight, something you really should run away from, but can fight if you really want to.

you do realise people would start hunting down guards just to prove their insane dps? they will be the new dps dummies
even "not mini boss" fight mechanics are being cheesed because of high dps, those guards have no chance just saying

He keeps ignoring this as it's been said several times. He keeps asking for legitimate reasons but keeps ignoring the most glaring one.

It's a fact towns would now become battlegrounds all over Tameriel as random players and entire guilds try to take down as many guards as possible for no other reason than bragging rights.

It would be horrible just trying to get from one side of town to the other with all the lag. Imagine trying to do some banking while a group of players all try to kill a guard, inside the bank...

Talk about immersion breaking.