Quest Journal Lore Library Does Not Include A List of Crafting Style Motifs

Shadowshire · May 2020

Several weeks ago, I noticed that the Quest Journal Lore Library for a new character did not include a Crafting section that lists the gear Style Motifs which the character has learned. It included only Shalidor's Library. So I assumed that the game client would display the Lore Library Crafting section after the character learned at least one Style Motif.

However, that has not happened. The character has learned motifs required to craft at least 15 different Styles of gear (and has reached Level 50 CP 160). For what it is worth, the Quest Journal Lore Library includes a Crafting section for each and every other Level 50 CP 160 character that I play, regardless of their Class or Skill Lines.

The following screenshot was taken without any add-on(s), or their libraries, loaded for the character:

I cannot recall whether I must take some specific action to add the Crafting section to the Lore Library. I believe that the character found and read several Lore Books, which are in Shalidor's Library, before the character learned any Crafting Style Motifs. It is possible that I used several Style books for 9 of the 10 racial styles (which were transferred from a "mule toon") before the character read any Lore Book in Shalidor's Library -- but I doubt that I did so.

Please advise.

kringled_1 · May 2020

Your character needs to finish the Mage's guild story line and acquire Eidetic Memory from Shalidor for those to show up there.

Shadowshire · May 2020

@kringled_1

kringled_1 wrote: »

Your character needs to finish the Mage's guild story line and acquire Eidetic Memory from Shalidor for those to show up there.

For what it may be worth: I thought the same thing, and you are quite likely correct. Also, I considered whether an add-on has been developed that adds the Crafting Style Motif section to the Lore Library. However, I have not been able to identify such an add-on, and the character in the OP loads almost all of the same large array of add-ons as my other characters do.

Regardless, it makes no sense at all -- from a design perspective -- to require a character who crafts to complete the Mages Guild quest line in order to have the Crafting Style Motif section added to the Lore Library. After all, as shown in the OP screenshot, every character has Shalidor's Library in their Quest Journal Lore Library -- regardless of whether the character ever reads a Lore Book or ever completes the Mages Guild quest line.*

In conclusion: I don't know whether (a) there actually is such a requirement, or (b) the absence of the Crafting section after a character has learned one or more Crafting Style Motifs is a bug in the game software -- i.e., regardless of whether the character has done anything for the Mages Guild.

Perhaps Support will be able to find out which of those two choices is the case. But it will probably require them a long time to respond, if ever they do. Which ZOS person is in charge of this section of the forum?

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* IIRC, the Eidetic Library was not in the original game design, although its documents and books were in the game, and neither was the Crafting Style section of the Lore Library. When I began playing TESO there were only armor and weapon "styles" for the original 9 races. The knowledge needed to craft each original style was acquired by finding a single book, as it is today. Then books for the respective Ancient Elf, Primal, Barbaric, and Daedric styles were added.

Playing the Imperial race and crafting for it was a bonus feature of the TESO "collector's edition" software. Later, a rare Imperial style book was added that would enable a player who did not buy that edition (or the Crown Store upgrade to it) to craft Imperial style gear. Since then, each new style has been available either as a rare single book, or by using each of fourteen separate "chapters" which are more commonly available.

kringled_1 · May 2020

This will sound arrogant, but it simply is not a question for debate. If you want that section to open up, you need eidetic memory, and I've specifically done the mages guild story line just for access to that page as it's a convenient tool to monitor motif knowledge.
Addons will not give access to that, and it is not a bug. You may or may not get a useful answer from Support, and answers from zos on the forums to questions like this are rare.
As far as the logic goes, I agree if you look at it the way you are, it doesn't make sense. However, when you look at it from what the lore library is supposed to do, it's all consistent. Shalidors library is there for all characters because it's the way for people to monitor their progress against mages guild lore books. Eidetic memory is there to let players review the lore text for any books they've found, whether or not they progress anything, and crafting motifs are part of that. Most (all?) motifs can be tracked separately, either in the crafting achievements, or in the achievement section for the particular dlc/chapter associated with that motif.

Shadowshire · May 2020

@kringled_1 Thank-you for your reply.

Whether ZOS considers requiring a character to complete the Mages Guild quest line just to obtain the Crafting Style section to be a bug, it certainly appears to be an oversight in the development of that feature of the game.

Please note that neither the Eidetic Library nor the Crafting Styles section of the Quest Journal Lore Library per se are displayed in the screenshot included in the OP. Who would know that they even exist without undertaking and completing the Mages Guild quest? They wouldn't -- unless some other player(s) or wikis and game guides, etc. tell them about those features.

It seems reasonable to consider the books from which characters learn crafting styles to be a genre of Elder Scrolls lore. So it is reasonable to "collect" them in the Lore Library. Nonetheless, Shalidor's Library has all Lore Books which are of interest to the Mages Guild. The Eidetic Library is an entertaining feature, but for the unfortunate fact that so many of its documents and books either cannot be found or cannot be read by characters in all "instances" of the game on the PC and EU mega-servers, respectively. (Yes, I am acquainted with the Bug Report discussions which are devoted to that problem.)

Other than "lore" there is no particular association between (a) the Mages Guild and (b) crafting armor, weapons, and jewelry. A character does not have to become a Mage to learn crafting. So, there is no evident justification to associate crafting style "books" either with the Mages Guild or with eidetic memory. Insofar as books from which a character learns to craft items could be collected for a library, then why not the Crafters Guild Library instead?

Oh, right ... explicitly creating such a Guild in the Skills UI in which to list Crafting skills as abilities, whether with any passives, makes too much sense. Do crafting characters have a Guild Hall anywhere in Tamriel?* hmmm .......

Be that as it may, a question remains:

Is it necessary to allocate a Skill Point(s) to any Mages Guild ability and/or passive in order to complete the guild quest chain, thus gain access to the Crafting Styles section of the Quest Journal Lore Library?

Perhaps I will just have to try it to see whether I can do that. Albeit, all of my characters always have a Skill Point allocated to the Mages Guild passive "Persuasive Will". Whether it is worth the time and effort to complete the Mages Guild quest chain just to activate the Crafting Styles section of the Lore Library is a matter of the player's judgement.

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* There is a players guild named Craftaholics as well as at least one other that is devoted to furnishing Homesteads with various "themes" or functions as inns, bars, workshops, etc.

deleted221106-002999 · May 2020

You probably already know this but the motifs you refer to are listed under achievements-->crafting-->general.

But if you want them in that library, as others have already stated, you need to finish the mages guild quest line.

VaranisArano · May 2020

Shadowshire wrote: »

@kringled_1 Thank-you for your reply.

Whether ZOS considers requiring a character to complete the Mages Guild quest line just to obtain the Crafting Style section to be a bug, it certainly appears to be an oversight in the development of that feature of the game.

Please note that neither the Eidetic Library nor the Crafting Styles section of the Quest Journal Lore Library per se are displayed in the screenshot included in the OP. Who would know that they even exist without undertaking and completing the Mages Guild quest? They wouldn't -- unless some other player(s) or wikis and game guides, etc. tell them about those features.

It seems reasonable to consider the books from which characters learn crafting styles to be a genre of Elder Scrolls lore. So it is reasonable to "collect" them in the Lore Library. Nonetheless, Shalidor's Library has all Lore Books which are of interest to the Mages Guild. The Eidetic Library is an entertaining feature, but for the unfortunate fact that so many of its documents and books either cannot be found or cannot be read by characters in all "instances" of the game on the PC and EU mega-servers, respectively. (Yes, I am acquainted with the Bug Report discussions which are devoted to that problem.)

Other than "lore" there is no particular association between (a) the Mages Guild and (b) crafting armor, weapons, and jewelry. A character does not have to become a Mage to learn crafting. So, there is no evident justification to associate crafting style "books" either with the Mages Guild or with eidetic memory. Insofar as books from which a character learns to craft items could be collected for a library, then why not the Crafters Guild Library instead?

Oh, right ... explicitly creating such a Guild in the Skills UI in which to list Crafting skills as abilities, whether with any passives, makes too much sense. Do crafting characters have a Guild Hall anywhere in Tamriel?* hmmm .......

Be that as it may, a question remains:

Is it necessary to allocate a Skill Point(s) to any Mages Guild ability and/or passive in order to complete the guild quest chain, thus gain access to the Crafting Styles section of the Quest Journal Lore Library?

Perhaps I will just have to try it to see whether I can do that. Albeit, all of my characters always have a Skill Point allocated to the Mages Guild passive "Persuasive Will". Whether it is worth the time and effort to complete the Mages Guild quest chain just to activate the Crafting Styles section of the Lore Library is a matter of the player's judgement.

=========== ==========
* There is a players guild named Craftaholics as well as at least one other that is devoted to furnishing Homesteads with various "themes" or functions as inns, bars, workshops, etc.

No, you don't have to put in skill points.
You just have to do the Mages Guild quests.

While its true that non-MG players can still be crafters, its a holdover from Pre-One Tamriel when players were expected to complete the Mages Guild quest as they leveled up. Consider this just another example of ZOS getting players to experience ALL of the content in the game via gating rewards behind it. If you don't want to gain the Eidetic Memory, the alternative is to look at the crafting achievements scattered around the different achievement categories.

Shadowshire · May 2020

@kringled_1 @Souterain @VaranisArano

Thank-you all for your replies.

Learning a Crafting Style Motif is usually recorded as an Achievement -- either in the original Base Game crafting category (IIRC one or more are not acknowledged), or in a crafting category for the corresponding DLC or Chapter in which the specific style was introduced.

Apparently, the add-on Trait Buddy* uses those Achievements to determine which motifs, and motif chapters, to display for its Motifs feature. Unfortunately, for a long time the majority of the Achievements records for one of my characters were corrupt. That of course, caused every add-on feature that depended upon them to display incorrect output. (Also, since I am red-green colorblind, the extensive use of "green" throughout the Trait Buddy output renders most of its features useless for me. But I don't want pursue a discussion of that add-on per se.)

As to why the Crafting Style section is only displayed after the character has completed the Mages Guild quest-line, I doubt that it was deliberately implemented that way to encourage players to "experience all of the content of the game". Granted that, for better or for worse, ZOS marketing and the game designers are often clever.

But I look at TESO development from the perspective of a former systems analyst, development project manager, software designer, and programmer. The growing multitude of uncorrected bugs with new design flaws and yet more bugs in (or as a result of) released upgrades and new content has been a sad spectacle to experience. In my time, quick-and-dirty development which produced incorrect and/or misleading output from valid input -- whether unreliable performance -- would never be accepted by any person or organization, especially when the software is "mission critical".

The historical fact is that developing TESO shifted to the prototype method because the game produced by the traditional paradigm was failing to gain enough players. In the prototype method, developers introduce features, then either remove them, or modify and/or expand features according to the user "feedback" which they receive. They also might introduce a new feature if and when enough "users" make a good case for one. That said, the extent to which user "feedback" and suggestions influences TESO development is rather vague, to me.

Nonetheless, the clearest example of this is One Tamriel. ZOS marketing research discovered that The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim was more popular with players than TESO, and delved into the reasons as to why they preferred to play it. The hasty hatchet job on the existing software to transition to One Tamriel left scars and anachronisms which remain today. But it did, for two or three years, result in a remarkable increase in the number of players.

Enough said, I hope.

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* Thus far, I am not familiar with the add-on Craft Store, which also obtains and displays data as to whether a Style Motif has been learned.

newtinmpls · May 2020

kringled_1 wrote: »

This will sound arrogant, but it simply is not a question for debate. If you want that section to open up, you need eidetic memory, and I've specifically done the mages guild story line just for access to that page as it's a convenient tool to monitor motif knowledge.

Also some of the books are pretty darn cool to read.

VaranisArano · May 2020

In case it wasn't clear, the reason why the crafting motifs are included in Eidetic Memory is because that's the whole ""this reward gives you the checklist of every book in the game" while Shalidor's Memory doesn't.

This wasn't a problem, pre-One Tamriel, because everyone was more or less expected to complete the Mages Guild as they leveled up, due to level-locked quests.

After One Tamriel, ZOS didn't change it. Why should they? Its a unique reward for completing the Mages Guild that incentivizes players to run that questline, and thus leaving it the way it is benefits ZOS by encouraging players to complete content they might otherwise skip.

When aspects of game design are inconvenient for players, its often because there is some benefit to the game developers. Offer feedback as you please, of course, but personally my feedback is that doing the Mages Guild questline is a fine hurdle to jump over given that the achievements or checking your crafting/outfit station are an inconvenient but viable alternative to checking your motif knowledge without add-ons.

Shadowshire · May 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

In case it wasn't clear, the reason why the crafting motifs are included in Eidetic Memory is because that's the whole ""this reward gives you the checklist of every book in the game" while Shalidor's Memory doesn't.
....

Well, in the original design, only the books in Shalidor's Library were Lore Books. The rest were just documents which a character might find and read in the course of adventuring. (Announcing them as "lore books" on the HUD is just an example of quick-and-dirty programming. Why create a new announcement when the existing one will do?)

Without a Forum search feature that limits the search to the Patch Notes, I don't have the time to read through them to verify whether the Crafting Motifs section was added to the software at the same time that Eidetic Memory was added as a bonus for completing the Mages Guild quest line. (That is, I don't have an eidetic memory, myself.

)

That said, IIRC, the Crafting Motifs section was added some time after my two sorcerers had already completed the Mages Guild quest line, when they were respectively cursed by Shalidor's "gift" -- upon which the Eidetic Library magically appeared in the Quest Journal Lore Library for each character. At that time, I already had a rather long list of the Style Motifs which they had learned on a sheet of paper in a memo pad.

< topic drift >

In TESO, so many entries in the Eidetic Library are missing or unavailable that I stopped explicitly searching for them on the characters which I developed subsequently. It just requires too much time and effort to constantly report the ones that my characters cannot find or cannot access. And more time and effort searching the Bug Forum discussions on the matter, of course. Occasionally, ZOS has made changes to rectify a few specific problems. For at least one small number of the documents, the changes actually made matters worse by gathering the "problem" ones into an area which characters cannot access. Regardless, is clear that it is not a priority for the software development staff to remedy the flaws in this feature.

Frankly, I have spent at least as much time and effort reporting design flaws and implementation errors ("bug") to the ZOS developers, and attempting to help other players deal with them and find "workarounds" , as I have actually playing the game.

Then there has been much time and effort reporting design flaws and implementation errors ("bug") to add-on developers. But forget about playing TESO without any add-ons!! Its native UI features are so primitive as to be essentially worthless for playing some aspects of the game. TESO would not have anywhere near as many players as it does without them.

Don't get me started. .....