Please help me figure out what I'm doing wrong (healer)

Twilanthe
Twilanthe
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Me and a couple friends have been doing dungeons lately. I went healer because they are both DPS. I'm really enjoying healing, but now that we are level 50 and doing pledges and the second number dungeons, I am beginning to struggle.

For reference I am an argonian necromancer using the Alcast necromancer healing build. I've got the Kagrenac's Hope set so far, but the rest of my gear is stuff I have gotten in dungeons. I have 315-ish champion points. In most cases I've been doing more DPS than healing because just my spirit mender and keeping combat prayer on the ground seems to be enough to keep everyone topped up, and I use Resistant Flesh when I need to. there are only a few fights where I've needed to really focus on healing. On some boss fights I need to focus almost entirely on healing, so I put down Blockade and Boneyard to help with DPS but otherwise focus on healing.

Last night me and one of my friends did a dungeon, I forget which one it was. But the final boss (I think it was the final boss) was a fire elemental on a big stone circle on the ground. He eventually splits into two smaller elementals. And on either side of the circle are altars that give abilities that seem to hurt them. I really struggled with this fight, and we wiped many times. Each time they tried to vote kick me and said I wasn't healing. Because I was playing with a friend the vote failed and we would try again. I asked if there was any mechanics we were missing and they just said no I was a crap healer and it was my fault. I was entirely focused on healing during these fights, and reserving my ultimate for bringing people up, but it still wasn't enough.

I found this fight difficult for two major reasons. The first was that people were scattered everywhere, someone would need a heal and be clear across the area and out of my reach. So they would die before I could get close enough to drop Resistant Flesh on them a couple times to get them up. Or when I used Radiating Regen it wouldn't reach them. And people were moving around so much that my cheaper AOE Combat Prayer was pretty much useless and I'd try to keep it under where I could, but people would run out of it pretty quickly.

The other issue was the point in the fight where we kept going down, when the ground was pretty much entirely covered in bad stuff, I can barely find a safe space. I try to keep out of it, and heal, and get to people across the other side, but get stuck or knocked down by falling rocks. Several times I would just end up dying because I'd get pinned down, unable to use abilities to even heal myself. (the worst part was on one of the wipes I got that really annoying glitch where all my abilities are suddenly trying to use Stamina instead of Magicka, so I run out in seconds and am stuck. I had to /reloadui to fix it in the middle of the fight and we wiped again). I think we wiped a total of 8 or 9 times before I finally got tired of them being so angry with me and just dropped the group and logged for the night.

I am really hoping someone can see some glaring thing I am doing wrong and can fix, and it's not just that I'm not good enough, because I do enjoy healing and would like to eventually be able to heal Vet dungeons. But if I am struggling this much in just regular dungeons and the II versions of them, I don't know if I'll ever be able to do vet dungeons, let alone trials. We are partly hoping to just get another friend to join as a tank, then we can die over and over until we succeed and no one will be a jerk about it. But at the same time I really would like to improve. I'm just not sure what I am doing wrong. I would welcome any advice and constructive criticism.
Lüc - Argonian Necromancer Healer
PC-NA
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    It sounds like you had vBRF as your dungeon.
    Now then, let me first reassure you, that it wasn't your fault. Here are the reasonings.

    1. If the dps is to far away, it is his fault.
    2. If there are too many fires around so the dps can't position well, the amount of fire is because group dmg is low.
    3. If the tank can't position well, it is his fault.
    4. If nobody is using altars properly it can't be only your fault.
    5. If most of the fire is in bad positioning it is the tanks fault.
    6. If they are running away from your heals, it is their faults.

    Now that we established it isn't your fault (or at least not entirely), gonna give you heads up, dlc dungeons are usually harder than non dlc by a large margin, so lack of experience also plays a lot in those cases. Don't beat yourself up, most of us had the shock of suddenly walking into mechanics, you get used to it.
  • Twilanthe
    Twilanthe
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    zvavi wrote: »
    It sounds like you had vBRF as your dungeon.
    Now then, let me first reassure you, that it wasn't your fault. Here are the reasonings.

    1. If the dps is to far away, it is his fault.
    2. If there are too many fires around so the dps can't position well, the amount of fire is because group dmg is low.
    3. If the tank can't position well, it is his fault.
    4. If nobody is using altars properly it can't be only your fault.
    5. If most of the fire is in bad positioning it is the tanks fault.
    6. If they are running away from your heals, it is their faults.

    Now that we established it isn't your fault (or at least not entirely), gonna give you heads up, dlc dungeons are usually harder than non dlc by a large margin, so lack of experience also plays a lot in those cases. Don't beat yourself up, most of us had the shock of suddenly walking into mechanics, you get used to it.

    Thank you for the encouragement. I did not realize I was in a vet dungeon, but that also helps explain why it was so hard compared to the others I have done. I am not entirely sure I am ready for vet content just yet. But I am glad that the issue isn't entirely that I was just not good enough.
    Lüc - Argonian Necromancer Healer
    PC-NA
  • mobicera
    mobicera
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    You may have been in normal or vet, but you were most definitely in blood root forge a dlc dungeon.
    Dlc dungeons have more mechanics than base game dungeons, things also hit harder.
    I have a feeling all mechanics were being ignored on this last fight making it harder for no real reason.
    Things you can do to help hit dps with heals that need to be mobile is the regeneration hot from the restoration tree.
    But really I don't think you were solely at fault here at here.
    To be blunt dungeons in this game don't even require a healer, sometimes a healer may make certain dungeons easier for some groups but its not really needed.
    So if you're dps was dying repeatably and just blaming you they actually are not any good themselves and are probably just looking for a scapegoat.
    Support roles in this game are more about supporting your group, however this may be.
    For heals buffing with major courage and minor berserk, keeping resources flowing, keeping your wall down for off balance, etc is just as important as keeping hots going and in 4 person perhaps more important.
  • newtinmpls
    newtinmpls
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    I was reading your post and found it really thought provoking. Here are some of the thoughts that were provoked :)
    Twilanthe wrote: »
    I am really hoping someone can see some glaring thing I am doing wrong and can fix,

    First, yes, you are struggling with a pain in the parts learning curve that is both "non-to-Vet" AND "Base-to-DLC" these are tough for everyone, including the DPS and tank. Everyone needs to work together.

    So there isn't going to be one glaring thing, it's going to be a LOT of tiny tweaks.

    I'll comment on some of what you have said:
    Twilanthe wrote: »
    In most cases I've been doing more DPS than healing because just my spirit mender and keeping combat prayer on the ground seems to be enough to keep everyone topped up

    In lots of sections of the dungeon, this is pretty usual. Poorer DPS's will NOT see it and may think they are doing better than the actually are. This is not on you, it's just a thing.

    You have identified a few things that can be improved:
    Twilanthe wrote: »
    I've got the Kagrenac's Hope set so far, but the rest of my gear is stuff I have gotten in dungeons.

    Well, I do enjoy Alcast, but I would not have recommended that set for a healer. The DPS' should be doing the rezzing. My next thought is that even with this set (which may work for your build, so don't necessarily listen to me), I would want you to be wearing another 5-pc set AND a monster helm set (you may be doing this, but you don't mention them).

    Spell power cure (drops in White Gold Tower) is a nice healer set, because when your healing is going well, you top off the DPS damage. Note that the last ability:
    (5 items) When you heal yourself or an ally that is at 100% Health, you have a 50% chance to give the target Major Courage for 10 seconds which increases their Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 258.

    Sanctuary is another good healer set (drops in Banished Cells)
    (5 items) Increases your healing received by 12% for you and up to 11 group members within 10 meters of you.
    HOWEVER as you noted, if the DPS are kiting all over the map; this will not be as effective.

    Depending on your Crit Healing ability, Combat Physician might be a possible choice (Drops in Wayrest Sewers)
    5 items: When you critically heal yourself or an ally, you grant your target a damage shield that absorbs 8195 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.
    NOTE this is probably not needed in most situations, but a proc'ed extra damage shield can be handy when there is red all over the darn place. Your description of the above fight made me consider this.

    Monster Helms:
    There are a tone of good ones, and in non-vet it won't make a ton of difference. You can go two ways; either use a set that has an effect you like (I personally prefer Chokethorn, but the radius is going to decrease once Greymoor drops, so that's gonna be a bummer) OR you can layer sets, like use Shoulders/Head using one each of Earthgore, Sentinel of Rkugamz; Sympthony of Blades and/or Troll King because all of those have "+4% healing done" as the 1-peice bonus.
    Twilanthe wrote: »
    The other issue was the point in the fight where we kept going down, when the ground was pretty much entirely covered in bad stuff, I can barely find a safe space.

    There are times when some kind of shield or damage mitigation can come in handy. Last night on Vet Wayrest I, I was really glad to have Harness Magicka (morph of the light armor skill "annulment") but depending on your build, the other morph might fit you better.

    Damage mitigation can also be accomplished using the Fighter's guild skills that start with "circle of protection"; the "ring of preservation" morph mitigates damage AND helps stamina regen AND heals folks standing in it. However it can only be cast literally at your own feet, so if you have dancing/range DPS's it's less useful for them.

    The other thing to consider is your ulti. One I really like is the Resto Staff Ultimate, which does more than just heal:
    Release the rejuvenating energies of your staff to swirl around you, healing you or an ally for XXX Health every 1 second for 5 seconds. When you activate this ability you automatically cast Regeneration, Blessing of Protection, and Steadfast Ward at no cost. These will update based on which morph of each ability you have taken.

    I also have to ask - have you messed about with Renewing Animation? It's a morph of Living Death. The description says "Bring your allies back from the brink of death, resurrecting up to 3 allies at the target location. You restore XXXX Magicka and Stamina for each ally you attempt to resurrect." Which implies you might be able to toss it from a distance. I don't know - I've not used this one, but it looks interesting.
    Twilanthe wrote: »
    I asked if there was any mechanics we were missing and they just said no I was a crap healer and it was my fault.

    No it was not your fault that the DPS's were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. However, I would HIGHLY recommend that you talk about this (in zone or in chat) at the beginning of any run. If you have a heal/ability you can throw with a visible effect/border (and if they can't see it, remind them to go into settings and turn ON the ability to see other's abilities/animations).

    It will depend on what you have: Templar "Cleansing Ritual" and all it's morphs have really easily visible boundaries. For a Warden, Healing Seed and it's morphs are also pretty visible. I'm not sure how visible Grand Healing (resto staff ability) and it's morphs are.

    Basically you throw out something visible at the beginning of the dungeon, and you remind the others that if they are farther than that away from you, then your heals won't reach and they better have decent self-healing. You just focus on "these are the heals I offer" and then let it go (because if they are jerks, you can't change that).

    If the DPSs need heals, they should be running toward the healer.
    If the DPSs are being targeted/chased by adds/whatever, they should be running toward the tank.

    If they are not doing either of those things, and are still fussing like toddlers, then you are not the problem.

    My 2 cents.
    YMMV

    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • FakeFox
    FakeFox
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    From your post I can't really tell if you are doing something wrong with your healing or not, but the situation you describe does not sound like a healing problem to me, more like low DPS and bad movement.
    Anyway, if DDs constantly go out of range or do other dumb things, I personally don't bother and just let them die. Of course you can and probably should, if you want to succeed, tell them to position correctly, but if they don't listen it's not your fault.
    That said however, there are of course situations that require a lot of movement and maybe splitting up and you should of course learn to heal in those situations. What I personally did to train my positioning, movement and situational awareness, was playing dungeons with nothing but combat prayer.
    EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    newtinmpls wrote: »
    However, I would HIGHLY recommend that you talk about this (in zone or in chat) at the beginning of any run. If you have a heal/ability you can throw with a visible effect/border (and if they can't see it, remind them to go into settings and turn ON the ability to see other's abilities/animations).


    Ye this part is wrong, even with the no ally effects setting, you see friendly effects, it only get rids of the non friendly ones. (Ones that don't affect you)

    Also twilante, I assumed you got into vBRF, but if you don't do vets, it is entirely possible it was normal. Normal dlc is harder than vet non dlc many times, don't beat yourself :D
    Edited by zvavi on May 10, 2020 11:32PM
  • newtinmpls
    newtinmpls
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    zvavi wrote: »

    Ye this part is wrong, even with the no ally effects setting, you see friendly effects

    For me, I couldn't see the cool "closing fist" of the Stormfist monster set until I had it enabled.
    FakeFox wrote: »
    there are of course situations that require a lot of movement and maybe splitting up and you should of course learn to heal in those situations. What I personally did to train my positioning, movement and situational awareness, was playing dungeons with nothing but combat prayer.

    Combat prayer cannot heal two people who are on opposite sides of a large room.

    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    newtinmpls wrote: »
    For me, I couldn't see the cool "closing fist" of the Stormfist monster set until I had it enabled.

    It doesn't affect you though. so u won't see it.
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