Take away from today's twitch stream

BackStabeth · May 2020

Fixes were mentioned, however the fixes mentioned were all related to new material being released. So what does that mean? It means that the new content has bugs, and by introducing the new content they are introducing new bugs and attempting to fix them with the recent updates.

How about fixing the bugs and issues that already exist? Releasing new content means releasing new bugs into an environment that already has far too many bugs.

It was mentioned that the new archeology system is like "Indiana Jones"? It's not, it's introducing new bugs. Indiana Jones didn't have to deal with software issues, hardware issues, etc.

It was mentioned several times that people who work at ZoS play the game. As if that means they understand the issues playing ESO. If that is the case, then I am far more disappointed in ZoS than previously. I thought that the major issues that prevent the game being played fluidly, the hardware and software issues, the problems related to animation, all the things that cause people to leave were things that those who work for ZoS did not understand how incredibly frustrating it makes the game, and how many leave because of the issues. Now however, since it has been repeated so many times that people play the game that means they know, they understand exactly the issues and problems related to our being able to play the game. So to be clear this is my take away.

1. It was stated several times that the people employed at ZoS play the game. That means they know how incredibly frustrating the game is, they know it's broken, they know there are major bugs and issues with game play.
2. New content is more important than fixing existing problems and bugs. It was mentioned that the updates have bug fixes for the new content not even released yet, not for issues and problems that have persisted for years but related to the new content not released yet.
3. Any conversation related to fixing current issues and problems was avoided and not mentioned at all.
4. If a company cares about their customers, if they care about the people paying the money that pays their wages, they should at every opportunity address the issues and problems related to their product. ZoS does not do this, they ignore addressing issues as if by doing so people won't remember all the issues and problems related to game play. As if talking about them will bring more attention to them. That makes me feel that if they are avoiding talking about fixes, that they are not intending or working on fixes. They did talk about fixes related to new content, and I feel that's because they are focused on the new content to generate even more income and not focused on fixing the game that is effectively broken and issues that have existed for years.
5. While excavation was being shown off, there was a disconnection. We all experience these things but the twitch stream team wasn't surprised, there was nothing even mentioned about it as if it was expected. Nothing was said about it, no apologies for the issues, they just keep right on going.
6. Some of the new things needed for the Antiquities system are found in dungeons. The queue for dungeons is broken, it sometimes takes over 30 min to queue for a dungeon. How are we, if we are casual players, able to engage in content where we have to wait so long just to get into dungeons, let alone all the other bugs and issues related to game play.

I don't want to take away from the hard work that people at ZoS do, there is a lot of it and it should be recognized. I have nothing against anyone personally at ZoS. My problem is strictly related to an inability to fluidly play ESO because of the bugs, latency, hardware/software issues, animation issues, all the problems that make the game unplayable at times. I love ESO, but I will eventually leave if things are not fixed and the other issues improve. I see no point in paying for frustration, I want to enjoy my entertainment dollar and time. It honestly has become more and more difficult for me to enjoy ESO and to justify spending any money on the game at all.

It seems to me the focus is on exciting people about new content, and not spending money on fixing issues. That only works for awhile and requires new content to constantly be added as fast as possible. Each time new content is introduced, more bugs are introduced. If the bugs and issues are not resolved before the introduction of new content that means more bugs and more issues accumulate with each new content update. That means the issues and problems are getting worse, and worse, and worse.

Things need to be fixed, there are no excuses for not fixing the problems. There are no excuses for not addressing the issues and letting customers know that you understand there are issues and you have people working on them, fixing them. As it stands now there is always a general statement fixes are coming but these things have been promised since 2015 from what I can tell, and never resolved after 5-6 years.

SydneyGrey · May 2020

Greymoor hasn't been released yet. Of course it has bugs ... that's why it's on the test server right now, to fix them before it goes live. That's the whole point of the test server.

darthgummibear_ESO · May 2020

My takeaway is that Bethesda is so broken they can't even distribute crates properly. Still haven't gotten mine.

Pauls · May 2020

Nothing about lag will be fixed, enjoy your game which is playable not when you want but when server lags bit less so you can play

Dark_Lord_Kuro · May 2020

Why is it on test server if not to fix what the can before going to live?

Skullderic · May 2020

Maybe put LIVE on the PTS a while. Fix your crap Zos. (To many bugs to even start to list)

Universe · May 2020

rotaugen454 · May 2020

My takeaway was the red and black senche cub pet I got from the crate drop.

MilkJugg24 · May 2020

As someone who has been hovering around the PC Technical Support forum a lot recently, there seems to be many issues that ZOS doesn't have information about or chooses not to talk about. I have a feeling that they are seeing these issues, but simply do not have a solution or clue as to go about solving them.

When the publisher is expecting a quota of content like we see with this year's timeline, the priority will always be pushing content over fixing existing systems. This problem is not exclusive to ESO as a live service game. It affects a lot of other titles out there, some are just more successful at mitigating these problems than others.

I do hope that this quarantine perhaps causes a shift in their priorities and gives them an excuse to work backwards for a bit. I think a large majority of players, including myself, wouldn't mind a half-year cycle of nothing but bug fixing or more. Some of that however takes time, and is not something that everyone working on the game can work on. I haven't seen much in regards to Quality Assurance positions becoming available. I would love to do some on-boarding, and work remotely with ZOS to help them.

eso_lags · May 2020

BackStabeth wrote: »

Fixes were mentioned, however the fixes mentioned were all related to new material being released. So what does that mean? It means that the new content has bugs, and by introducing the new content they are introducing new bugs and attempting to fix them with the recent updates.

How about fixing the bugs and issues that already exist? Releasing new content means releasing new bugs into an environment that already has far too many bugs.

It was mentioned that the new archeology system is like "Indiana Jones"? It's not, it's introducing new bugs. Indiana Jones didn't have to deal with software issues, hardware issues, etc.

It was mentioned several times that people who work at ZoS play the game. As if that means they understand the issues playing ESO. If that is the case, then I am far more disappointed in ZoS than previously. I thought that the major issues that prevent the game being played fluidly, the hardware and software issues, the problems related to animation, all the things that cause people to leave were things that those who work for ZoS did not understand how incredibly frustrating it makes the game, and how many leave because of the issues. Now however, since it has been repeated so many times that people play the game that means they know, they understand exactly the issues and problems related to our being able to play the game. So to be clear this is my take away.

1. It was stated several times that the people employed at ZoS play the game. That means they know how incredibly frustrating the game is, they know it's broken, they know there are major bugs and issues with game play.
2. New content is more important than fixing existing problems and bugs. It was mentioned that the updates have bug fixes for the new content not even released yet, not for issues and problems that have persisted for years but related to the new content not released yet.
3. Any conversation related to fixing current issues and problems was avoided and not mentioned at all.
4. If a company cares about their customers, if they care about the people paying the money that pays their wages, they should at every opportunity address the issues and problems related to their product. ZoS does not do this, they ignore addressing issues as if by doing so people won't remember all the issues and problems related to game play. As if talking about them will bring more attention to them. That makes me feel that if they are avoiding talking about fixes, that they are not intending or working on fixes. They did talk about fixes related to new content, and I feel that's because they are focused on the new content to generate even more income and not focused on fixing the game that is effectively broken and issues that have existed for years.
5. While excavation was being shown off, there was a disconnection. We all experience these things but the twitch stream team wasn't surprised, there was nothing even mentioned about it as if it was expected. Nothing was said about it, no apologies for the issues, they just keep right on going.
6. Some of the new things needed for the Antiquities system are found in dungeons. The queue for dungeons is broken, it sometimes takes over 30 min to queue for a dungeon. How are we, if we are casual players, able to engage in content where we have to wait so long just to get into dungeons, let alone all the other bugs and issues related to game play.

I don't want to take away from the hard work that people at ZoS do, there is a lot of it and it should be recognized. I have nothing against anyone personally at ZoS. My problem is strictly related to an inability to fluidly play ESO because of the bugs, latency, hardware/software issues, animation issues, all the problems that make the game unplayable at times. I love ESO, but I will eventually leave if things are not fixed and the other issues improve. I see no point in paying for frustration, I want to enjoy my entertainment dollar and time. It honestly has become more and more difficult for me to enjoy ESO and to justify spending any money on the game at all.

It seems to me the focus is on exciting people about new content, and not spending money on fixing issues. That only works for awhile and requires new content to constantly be added as fast as possible. Each time new content is introduced, more bugs are introduced. If the bugs and issues are not resolved before the introduction of new content that means more bugs and more issues accumulate with each new content update. That means the issues and problems are getting worse, and worse, and worse.

Things need to be fixed, there are no excuses for not fixing the problems. There are no excuses for not addressing the issues and letting customers know that you understand there are issues and you have people working on them, fixing them. As it stands now there is always a general statement fixes are coming but these things have been promised since 2015 from what I can tell, and never resolved after 5-6 years.

Fair assessment

BackStabeth · May 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Greymoor hasn't been released yet. Of course it has bugs ... that's why it's on the test server right now, to fix them before it goes live. That's the whole point of the test server.

The point is that ZoS is focused on fixing bugs in the new release, not fixing bugs or issues that have existed for 5-6 years. They take our money, they produce new content and add that type of value to the game, sure. But each time they add value they add more bugs, they add more time to fix more issues that will arise when the ones the ones that have existed for 5-6 YEARS have et to be taken care of.

The point is that they are focused on new content and not on existing content that has been broken for a very long time.

So on the test server, the labor should be spent on fixing the issues, the bugs, the problems that make the game unplayable BEFORE fixing the issues on the new content.

Get it now?

Nanfoodle · May 2020

[Snip]. Stop making content is the fastest way to kill an MMO. Yes they need to fix stuff but a different set of people are making new content. How people don't get this blows my mind.

[Edited for bait]

newtinmpls · May 2020

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. It was stated several times that the people employed at ZoS play the game.

I suspect that what this means was to please quit pointing out in the forums that ZoS does not have much understanding of just how frustrating the game is. I say that because I'm not hearing much in the way of detail, such as:

Did they mention when (primetime?)

Did they mention how often (daily/weekly)

Did they mention what kind of content (Overland/Battlegrounds/Vet Undaunted/Maelstrom?)

geonsocal · May 2020

oh man, I thought I was gonna read something i didn't already know...

same as it ever was

[Snip]

[Edited for bait]

worrallj · May 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

[Snip] Stop making content is the fastest way to kill an MMO. Yes they need to fix stuff but a different set of people are making new content. How people don't get this blows my mind.
[Edited for bait]

There is a whole untapped customer base out there that hates theme park quests, thinks the crown store is dumb, and just wants to pvp. The zos business model needs to figure out how to get money from them. Until then zos is going to view them as free loaders and not a priority. Most obvious way to do that is to create a subscription only cyrodiil. Only then will they have the financial incentive to prioritize fixing it.

SmukkeHeks · May 2020

The easiest way to attract new money? New material

The easiest way to lose loyal money? Keep the above satisfied with new material and never look back on former launched material and the bugs that are in it

The first are easy to keep satisfied but the second they move down to the loyal part of the segment, the loyalty need more than just new launch.

Maybe new money seems luring, but it’s the loyal that keeps the fat in the butter.....

AinSoph · May 2020

Interesting that ZOS states Antiquities as "Indiana Jones" but I don't actually think there are any dig spots in any places except overland and you also find/dig up items ala Minesweeper. They could at least make enemies spawn at false/failed digs or even fake leads.

Darkhorse1975 · May 2020

Didnt Indiana Jones have to play types of mini games to locate the stuff that needed to be safely in a museum?

Indiana-Jones-Map-Room.gif?ssl=1

silvereyes · May 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Yes they need to fix stuff but a different set of people are making new content

While true that there are different teams for content design, server performance and QA, there are several points that this argument glosses over:

Companies are staffed according to their priorities and needs. If content is the priority, limited budget resources get allocated to hiring creative positions like artists and writers and voice actors. If the priority is performance and quality, they hire better engineers, architects and testers.
It's not just content design that has been appropriated for selling Chapters. To justify the cost of a Chapter, people demand shiny new exclusive systems like Jewelry Crafting and Antiquities, each of which were in development for over a year. Not that I'm sad about JC, but I think I would rather have guild tools that consistently worked.
The combat team has also been appropriated every time a new class or skill line gets introduced to sell a Chapter. Whether you like or the new classes and skill trees or not, developing them and balancing around them takes coders and play testers that could otherwise have been used to improve core gameplay quality.

I'm not saying all new content should be abandoned. Not by far. I just think that the pendulum has swung way too far towards content creation, to the point where it's harming the game and leaving behind too much technical debt.

ZOS_Volpe · May 2020

Greetings,

After removing a few baiting posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Nanfoodle · May 2020

worrallj wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

[Snip] Stop making content is the fastest way to kill an MMO. Yes they need to fix stuff but a different set of people are making new content. How people don't get this blows my mind.
[Edited for bait]

There is a whole untapped customer base out there that hates theme park quests, thinks the crown store is dumb, and just wants to pvp. The zos business model needs to figure out how to get money from them. Until then zos is going to view them as free loaders and not a priority. Most obvious way to do that is to create a subscription only cyrodiil. Only then will they have the financial incentive to prioritize fixing it.

I'm a PvPer myself. I'm dying to get back to Cyrodiil but the people only PvP are a smaller group then the people who do both PvP and PvE. Content creation is more then just quests. It's also new sets and skills so players can make new play styles. Also don't forget events, crafting and exploration. A game that does not go forward with development will lose allot of its player base. Fix things yes but stop asking Zeni to stop making new content. Both are needed.

TheImperfect · May 2020

The streams subject was the antiquities, not bug fixes. ZOS have said they are working on bug update fixes all this year alongside what they are doing and some was with the last update.

Sarousse · May 2020

Input delay fixes are worked on and will be put on PTS.

That means they won't be tested.

So what will happen ? Next update will go out, input delay and lag will still be there.

Nothing new here.

Elsonso · May 2020

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why is it on test server if not to fix what the can before going to live?

This, but also to balance gear, quests, monsters, and the like before going live.

newtinmpls wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. It was stated several times that the people employed at ZoS play the game.

I suspect that what this means was to please quit pointing out in the forums that ZoS does not have much understanding of just how frustrating the game is. I say that because I'm not hearing much in the way of detail, such as:

Did they mention when (primetime?)

Did they mention how often (daily/weekly)

Did they mention what kind of content (Overland/Battlegrounds/Vet Undaunted/Maelstrom?)

Most people just throw out "they don't play their game" in frustration. I doubt they seriously believe it. There is too much easy evidence to the contrary. However, since you asked, my internet search on the last question turned up this for 2020.

Lambert:

He has completed vet Maelstrom at 590k. Looks like he does VMA with both magicka NB and stamplar. I assume has earned multiple VMA weapons.
He has Selene's Savior from Lair of Maarselok.
He has Cold-Blooded Killer from Icereach
In PVP his character is a Prefect.

I am sure there is more stuff out there, but this was the easy to get stuff.

BackStabeth · May 2020

AinSoph wrote: »

Interesting that ZOS states Antiquities as "Indiana Jones" but I don't actually think there are any dig spots in any places except overland and you also find/dig up items ala Minesweeper. They could at least make enemies spawn at false/failed digs or even fake leads.

Ultima Online had a treasure system where you would dig up chests, depending on the difficult of the chest you dug up, it was harder to unlock and after doing so enemy monsters would spawn and try to kill you.

Many times for the most difficult chests, people went in parties.

I'm not really that excited over the antiquities however, I am actually kind of dreading the introduction of new bugs into an already broken game.

BackStabeth · May 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

[Snip]. Stop making content is the fastest way to kill an MMO. Yes they need to fix stuff but a different set of people are making new content. How people don't get this blows my mind.

[Edited for bait]

When you manage a company you look at figures like labor percentage, man hours to profit margin you know? So imagine a spreadsheet, and in that spreed sheet there is a column for how many hours of labor they pay for each month. Call those hours, resources. On a different column it shows profit for that month. They in yet another column is gross profit, what percentage of profit was spent on labor, etc etc etc.

If all the "resources" or labor hours/coding hours, are spent on new content, and those managing cannot go above a certain labor percentage then all your resources are spent on creating new content and none are left over for fixing bugs.

How do you not understand this? It's really simple. I have to be careful how much I spend in labor, so I try to keep my labor percentage lower than 7%, that allows me to pay my employees a living decent wage, and yet allows me to pay the rest of the bills and have a small profit.

With ESO, ZoS has to figure out investor percentage, labor percentage, upgrades, building costs, and on and on and on. Point is, they can't spend more on labor because something else suffers, like paying their investors for example. So where do the labor hours come from to fix the problems and issues? They are not coming from the labor hours that are spent creating new content, nor are they coming from the labor hours spent to fix the bugs related to the new content. It was announced that the next update will include fixes to bugs found in the un-released content. In other words, ZoS is fixing bugs related to the new release, but not fixing bugs, issues and problems related to bugs, issues and problems that have existed for 6 years.

Are you starting to understand and see the full scope of the problem? It matters where the money spent on labor is being spent, not that the people creating are different than the people fixing.

And another side note here. The people who create the code for new content? Well, they comment the code so they can go back later and understand what it is they were doing better. It's always better to have the person who created the code, to fix it as well. EVE Online ran into this problem where the programmers who created the original code no longer worked for them, so they had to re-code entire systems and scrap older systems instead of revamping them, because the people who came after had no idea how to alter the old code.

ESO will experience the same issues if they do not fix the older code before introducing new code. And yes, they need the people who wrote the original code to fix the problems, they are far better educated in that particular code than someone who didn't write it.

[Edit to remove bait]

Kidgangster101 · May 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Greymoor hasn't been released yet. Of course it has bugs ... that's why it's on the test server right now, to fix them before it goes live. That's the whole point of the test server.

@SydneyGrey yeah you know Necro blastbones was bugged for months right? It literally just got fixed almost a year later, along with many other bugs that we're reported with elsywr. Yet they didn't fix many of the bugs and pushed out there content just like op stated.

A lot of players won't play on pts because they report things wrong and zos doesn't fix it and just goes through with their original plans. (Frostvault was released buggy and still is as well)

So now what does the test server exists for a reason exactly?

BackStabeth · May 2020

mrsrobot wrote: »

The streams subject was the antiquities, not bug fixes. ZOS have said they are working on bug update fixes all this year alongside what they are doing and some was with the last update.

Nothing has been fixed, still random load screens, still stuck in animation, still lag in every aspect of the game where there are more than 4 players nearby, still draw distance issues and getting stuck in tiles not resolved yet, still feared into terrain, still bar flipping issues, blocking issues, PVP issues, PVE issues and many of these issues, bugs, problems that make the game unplayable at times have existed without being fixed for 6 years now.

There is another group of people who consistently over-promise and under-deliver. How about this for a meaningless joke. If pro is the opposite of con, then what is the opposite of progress?

Anyway, the world continues to move forward, governments rise and fall, people have kids, grow old, retire, die and yet? ESO continues to go on and on broken and buggy as it is.

Tarrocan · May 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Greymoor hasn't been released yet. Of course it has bugs ... that's why it's on the test server right now, to fix them before it goes live. That's the whole point of the test server.

LOL how long do u play this game? Do u really think that this update has no bugs after release?

Lysette · May 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why is it on test server if not to fix what the can before going to live?

This, but also to balance gear, quests, monsters, and the like before going live.

newtinmpls wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. It was stated several times that the people employed at ZoS play the game.

I suspect that what this means was to please quit pointing out in the forums that ZoS does not have much understanding of just how frustrating the game is. I say that because I'm not hearing much in the way of detail, such as:

Did they mention when (primetime?)

Did they mention how often (daily/weekly)

Did they mention what kind of content (Overland/Battlegrounds/Vet Undaunted/Maelstrom?)

Most people just throw out "they don't play their game" in frustration. I doubt they seriously believe it. There is too much easy evidence to the contrary. However, since you asked, my internet search on the last question turned up this for 2020.

Lambert:
He has completed vet Maelstrom at 590k. Looks like he does VMA with both magicka NB and stamplar. I assume has earned multiple VMA weapons.

He has Selene's Savior from Lair of Maarselok.

He has Cold-Blooded Killer from Icereach

In PVP his character is a Prefect.

I am sure there is more stuff out there, but this was the easy to get stuff.

This proves nothing for a guy, who has unlimited access to the database and can give himself any rank he wants and any achievements he wants just by changing the database entries. Same for gear and resources - i doubt that any of them is actually playing their game - it is work, why would they want to play it in their spare time.

essi2 · May 2020

Lysette wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why is it on test server if not to fix what the can before going to live?

This, but also to balance gear, quests, monsters, and the like before going live.

newtinmpls wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. It was stated several times that the people employed at ZoS play the game.

I suspect that what this means was to please quit pointing out in the forums that ZoS does not have much understanding of just how frustrating the game is. I say that because I'm not hearing much in the way of detail, such as:

Did they mention when (primetime?)

Did they mention how often (daily/weekly)

Did they mention what kind of content (Overland/Battlegrounds/Vet Undaunted/Maelstrom?)

Most people just throw out "they don't play their game" in frustration. I doubt they seriously believe it. There is too much easy evidence to the contrary. However, since you asked, my internet search on the last question turned up this for 2020.

Lambert:
He has completed vet Maelstrom at 590k. Looks like he does VMA with both magicka NB and stamplar. I assume has earned multiple VMA weapons.

He has Selene's Savior from Lair of Maarselok.

He has Cold-Blooded Killer from Icereach

In PVP his character is a Prefect.

I am sure there is more stuff out there, but this was the easy to get stuff.

This proves nothing for a guy, who has unlimited access to the database and can give himself any rank he wants and any achievements he wants just by changing the database entries. Same for gear and resources - i doubt that any of them is actually playing their game - it is work, why would they want to play it in their spare time.

Just a friendly reminder that conspiracy theories are prohibited by the forum ToS @Lysette