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The vampire cost increase is good because....
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »Oh, Jerry... where to even begin...
This debate is indeed silly. Vampires in the whole franchise used to have one characteristic and now it's reversed. No matter how you see it - people will be annoyed and rightly so. How do you think people would react when one day stamina dragonknights woke up to see their class had now the skills of a magicka nightblade? Yes, they could adapt, but this isn't the point. They did not sign up for that, THAT is the point. And it can't be denied.
Your super secret uber build is... yeah, I don't give a crab. If you think a magicka melee spammable and a CC that doesn't work on running people make you OP, well, godspeed. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefits, but you're vastly overestimating them.
But your true colors shine through near the end. You criticize people for choosing vampires for their benefits, the passives. They CHOSE vampires for their unique traits.
Yet, you go ahead and claim they NOW had to choose. No. No, they already did.
It's your remark about the new active abilities that reveals it. You explicitly said vampires SHOULD be defined by active abilities. No. Not in this franchise, buddy. Vampires have always been about the passives. If you like the upcoming changes, that is YOUR opinion. And you are as subjective on the matter as you accuse the current vamp players to be.
But our subjectivity is objectively right. Because this is how vamps have always worked. ZOS are changing the rules and changing what vampires are. That is NOT "how it should be". As I compared to Mehrunes Dagon - ZOS cannot just go ahead and replace Altmer magicka racials with weapon/stamina ones and change them from the best spellcasters to the best warriors because they feel this to be "how it should be". There are rules to make a created world believable and work. Every good writer knows that. So no, ZOS shouldn't tamper with this and this is not "how it should be".
So there aren't a substantial number of vampires because of their traits, passive regen, etc, but they chose them for traits? Here's a subtle hint, this is directly contradictory, and it also contradicts everything I'm seeing complained about in all of these threads. The common theme is "I got it for the passives, because the actives were crap, and now I'm going to have to play as an actual vampire, or have my costs increased". So what people really did was take vamp to be the best (insert class that doesn't require vampire to play here) they could be? Something doesn't add up there, and I suspect that that's what ZoS is thinking too, maybe?
That's basically the truth of it.
These changes are good for players who actually want to use Vampire abilities.
For people who just used it for a passive or two and didn't care for the actual skill line there isn't much here to like. But players who utilized Vampiric abilities into their rotations and fighting style are going to love Greymoor. And the new stage system allows players to choose what combination of Vampire + (insert class) they want to be. Which is something I was worried Greymoor wouldn't allow for. But after testing the changes on the PTS myself, I learned that it does. In fact it actually strengthens combination Vampire builds, because the penalties at lower stages are very manageable and you are no longer punished for using Vampire skills.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 7:55PM1 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »So there aren't a substantial number of vampires because of their traits, passive regen, etc, but they chose them for traits? Here's a subtle hint, this is directly contradictory, and it also contradicts everything I'm seeing complained about in all of these threads. The common theme is "I got it for the passives, because the actives were crap, and now I'm going to have to play as an actual vampire, or have my costs increased". So what people really did was take vamp to be the best (insert class that doesn't require vampire to play here) they could be? Something doesn't add up there, and I suspect that that's what ZoS is thinking too, maybe?
That is the gist of what they said on their live stream back in January, they want to make vampirism more of an active choice rather than just a passive after thought. But at the same time, I do not think it is right to think that the current iteration of such design is the end all and the be all. I think they should do some tweaking to address some actual concerns (Such as wanting to be a vampire because of rp reasons, but not being able to afford the cost increase if your say a healer or tank). I feel like there can be some compromises made to this system in order to make it more of an active choice without shooting yourself down. Such changes could be as simple as changing the cost progression to 0/5/10/15, providing the most human side at stage 1, no cost increase, but higher cost vampiric abilities, and only access to one passive. And should one choose to use vampiric abilities and want their cost lowered, or they want access to more of the passives, the could increase their stage and still have to make a decision as to how far they would go before the detriment is something they dont want to mess with. Alternatively, the ability cost increase could be scrapped all together in place of more
fire damage rather than less of it on the PTS. Something such as changing the fire damage to 10/20/30/40% would be significant enough to make that conscious decision as to whether or not higher stages are worth it for your build.1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ah, you two. Yes, I get it, you didn't want people to pick vampirism for the passives and you want to play a vampire class you have seen in other RPGs or whatnot. It doesn't matter. ZOS are pulling a 180 on vamps and people will not like that. It's the reality with such drastic changes.
As for the stage argument, aren't you contradicting yourself? On one hand, you preach for people to play as an "actual" vampire, but when it comes down to it, you advise not to actually progress to full vampire state? That just doesn't add up.
Well, wasn't really my point, anyway. I honestly can't tell how vamp will perform in the future. Neither can you, btw, the PTS is not the full game. And not nearly a week is not enough testing time. Nah, I'm simply explaining why people are mad and why they are rightfully so. That is all.6 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ah, you two. Yes, I get it, you didn't want people to pick vampirism for the passives and you want to play a vampire class you have seen in other RPGs or whatnot. It doesn't matter. ZOS are pulling a 180 on vamps and people will not like that. It's the reality with such drastic changes.
As for the stage argument, aren't you contradicting yourself? On one hand, you preach for people to play as an "actual" vampire, but when it comes down to it, you advise not to actually progress to full vampire state? That just doesn't add up.
Well, wasn't really my point, anyway. I honestly can't tell how vamp will perform in the future. Neither can you, btw, the PTS is not the full game. And not nearly a week is not enough testing time. Nah, I'm simply explaining why people are mad and why they are rightfully so. That is all.
It adds up fine.
You're playing as a Vampire regardless of what stage you are in. There is no contradiction there.
The stages represent how far gone as a Vampire you are... or how "corrupted" you are as the game puts it. So just choose which stage best reflects how large a role Vampirism plays in your build. It makes perfect sense. A fully corrupted Vampire would naturally use more Vampire Abilities than one who is only slightly corrupted. It's actually a well thought out and interesting system if you would just give it a chance instead of just dismissing it out of hand from what seems pure conservative ideology.
Sometimes change is good.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 8:47PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »So there aren't a substantial number of vampires because of their traits, passive regen, etc, but they chose them for traits? Here's a subtle hint, this is directly contradictory, and it also contradicts everything I'm seeing complained about in all of these threads. The common theme is "I got it for the passives, because the actives were crap, and now I'm going to have to play as an actual vampire, or have my costs increased". So what people really did was take vamp to be the best (insert class that doesn't require vampire to play here) they could be? Something doesn't add up there, and I suspect that that's what ZoS is thinking too, maybe?
That is the gist of what they said on their live stream back in January, they want to make vampirism more of an active choice rather than just a passive after thought. But at the same time, I do not think it is right to think that the current iteration of such design is the end all and the be all. I think they should do some tweaking to address some actual concerns (Such as wanting to be a vampire because of rp reasons, but not being able to afford the cost increase if your say a healer or tank). I feel like there can be some compromises made to this system in order to make it more of an active choice without shooting yourself down. Such changes could be as simple as changing the cost progression to 0/5/10/15, providing the most human side at stage 1, no cost increase, but higher cost vampiric abilities, and only access to one passive. And should one choose to use vampiric abilities and want their cost lowered, or they want access to more of the passives, the could increase their stage and still have to make a decision as to how far they would go before the detriment is something they dont want to mess with. Alternatively, the ability cost increase could be scrapped all together in place of more
fire damage rather than less of it on the PTS. Something such as changing the fire damage to 10/20/30/40% would be significant enough to make that conscious decision as to whether or not higher stages are worth it for your build.
5% is very manageable. My Vampire Tank and Healer (I play both as a Vampire) has had no problems dealing with it. It's a fair trade off for anyone who is wanting to actually make use of their Vampire abilities.
That isn't to say I wouldn't like to incur a zero penalty. Of course I would. But setting my personal bias aside, I can understand why the developers did it... otherwise everyone would become a Vampire. And that is contrary to their stated goal, which is to make Vampire exclusive for people who actually want to play as a Vampire and use their abilities. And we already know first hand that just fire damage increases alone would probably not accomplish that (it didn't before).Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 9:02PM1 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭5% is very manageable. My Vampire Tank and Healer (I play both as a Vampire) has had no problems dealing with it. It's a fair trade off for anyone who is wanting to actually make use of their Vampire abilities.
That isn't to say I wouldn't like to incur a zero penalty. Of course I would. But setting my personal bias aside, I can understand why the developers did it... otherwise everyone would become a Vampire. And that is contrary to their stated goal, which is to make Vampire exclusive for people who actually want to play as a Vampire and use their abilities.
I agree, it is manageable. However even if it is, a valid point Ive seen being made is that since there is no vampiric abilities that synergize with a traditional role of healer or tank, why should a healer or tank be a vampire? If lets say someone wants to roleplay a healer or tank WW, they can at no detriment to themselves, simply only use the ultimate in more solo play environments. The same cannot be said about vampirism. It is a matter of worth, as even at stage 1, if they gain nothing from it that synergizes with that role why should they receive a cost penalty?
Such thoughts have lead me to be completely fine with a 0/5/10/15 progression on the ability cost, but the PTS will be updated tomorrow, I am interested to see if they address vampirism.6 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You're playing as a Vampire regardless of what stage you are in.
No, you're not. If you stay at stage one all the time, you are literally avoiding playing as a vampire. When you advance in stages in TES, you gain access to new traits and abilities at the cost of some typical undead weaknesses. That is the defining characteristic of vampires in TES. You don't lose access to existing abilities. Until now, potentially. Your solution does not work, and it STILL DOES NOT ADDRESS THE REAL QUESTION.
You need to get it through your head that we're not asking for no penalties. We're looking at the current state of the PTS vampire and asking whether or not these penalties are too strong or if they are even the right penalties to have. "Stay at stage one" is a completely nonsensical, ridiculous answer to that question that's right up there with "Let them eat cake."Edited by Glurin on April 26, 2020 9:10PM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."10 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »5% is very manageable. My Vampire Tank and Healer (I play both as a Vampire) has had no problems dealing with it. It's a fair trade off for anyone who is wanting to actually make use of their Vampire abilities.
That isn't to say I wouldn't like to incur a zero penalty. Of course I would. But setting my personal bias aside, I can understand why the developers did it... otherwise everyone would become a Vampire. And that is contrary to their stated goal, which is to make Vampire exclusive for people who actually want to play as a Vampire and use their abilities.
I agree, it is manageable. However even if it is, a valid point Ive seen being made is that since there is no vampiric abilities that synergize with a traditional role of healer or tank, why should a healer or tank be a vampire? If lets say someone wants to roleplay a healer or tank WW, they can at no detriment to themselves, simply only use the ultimate in more solo play environments. The same cannot be said about vampirism. It is a matter of worth, as even at stage 1, if they gain nothing from it that synergizes with that role why should they receive a cost penalty?
Such thoughts have lead me to be completely fine with a 0/5/10/15 progression on the ability cost, but the PTS will be updated tomorrow, I am interested to see if they address vampirism.
That's a fair argument in respect to vampire healers and tanks who do not incorporate vampire abilities into their tool kits. For those who do though, Geymoor is a substantial buff because they can now use their vampire abilities regularly without having to worry about rapidly advancing to stage 4 and incurring all of the penalties that go along with it. I would also point out the drain can be useful as a tank and mist form could be valuable as a healer, especially in PvP.
But I do take your point as to why a healer or tank who do not use vampire abilities would feel penalized by these changes. Then again, doesn't that beg the question: why even be a vampire in the first place if you don't plan on using any of their skills?
And some of the newer abilities - like mesmerize - could possibly benefit a healer as well, though I'll admit I haven't really experimented with that one yet. And blood frenzy is great for tanks when they have a need for some offense. Your suggestion to add a fire damage increase rather an ability increase looks reasonable. But as I added in my last post , we already know that will likely be ineffective at reserving the vampire skill line for players who actually use vampire abilities - which is a goal for the developers here. Though on second thought, who knows... with the regen passive gone that might would work after all.
Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 9:35PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, you are. It doesn't matter if you're a stage 1 Vampire or a stage 4 Vampire... you are still playing as a Vampire.
No, you need to get it through you head that I never said you were asking for no penalties.You need to get it through your head that we're not asking for no penalties.
In fact I said the opposite about you, and that you were intent on needlessly punishing your character for no good reason.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 9:28PM0 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie5 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah, I can go around calling myself a secret agent or a brain surgeon. Doesn't mean that I am one. The same applies here. You go get stage one vampirism and then actively avoid doing anything that is vampire. You're not a vampire. You're just some guy who wrote "vampire" on his name tag."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Ever yone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 9:58PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah, I can go around calling myself a secret agent or a brain surgeon. Doesn't mean that I am one. The same applies here. You go get stage one vampirism and then actively avoid doing anything that is vampire. You're not a vampire. You're just some guy who wrote "vampire" on his name tag.
No that is the old (or I guess current, technically) system. I have tried to explain this to you.
In the new system under Greymoor, a stage 1 Vampire does not need to neglect using their Vampire skills in order to maintain their stage.
And the game calls a Stage 1 Vampire - a Vampire. So yes, they are a Vampire. The game defines what is or isn't considered a vampire on ESO. Not you.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 10:06PM1 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Everyone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Nah, it is over roasted and needs lots of work.3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Everyone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Nah, it is over roasted and needs lots of work.
A mere 5% ability increase is not going to lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds Xmeow. I can tell you this from personal experience, because all of my previous builds have survived just fine. They just require you to lower your stage.
5% is not going to make or break any decent build.1 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Everyone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Nah, it is over roasted and needs lots of work.
A mere 5% ability increase is not going to lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds Xmeow. I can tell you this from personal experience, because all of my previous builds have survived just fine. They just require you to lower your stage.
5% is not going to make or break any decent build.
And I can tell you from my experience that it is not how you’re making it out to be.
The penalties are too much and misguided. They need to be toned down simple.
Now note what I said, my experience okie.
Then note what you’re saying, your experiences and your builds you play. That doesn’t mean it is okie.
Who knows what your builds are or how you play....It is just your opinion.
ZOS needs to take everyones feedback that has been given the proper way and make their decisions from there.
What is the core issue for me....is that the penalties which most agree for vampires are too harsh. Especially compared with WW’
ZOS just needs to look it over and readjust it. Which is what the PTS is there to do, help tweak issues before going live. Nothing to go in circles about.
Edited by xXMeowMeowXx on April 26, 2020 10:21PM5 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If the penalties were not so drastic for feeding I'd totally do it.... up to a point I saw it as worthwhile. Like for example as a magDK I might not want the stage 4 invisibility so I wouldn't go that far. As it stands right now on the PTS its not even really worthwhile to go past stage 1 since it limits what I'm capable of doing. Can I make it work? Sure, yeah I guess I could but I wouldn't go that far when going into PVP. Bad enough flame enchantments, flame siege weapons, and flame abilities exist on multiple classes on top of the Fighter's Guild stuff available to all Stam builds.
Speaking of flame I find it funny they add this cost increase but then lower the overall flame damage. Like... really? If anything they should have raised the flame damage and scrapped the concept of ability cost increases entirely. Flame should be the constant and ever present threat to a vampire's existence, and it should be extreme enough for them to take an active consideration at increasing their stage. Are the benefits worth making this weakness go up? If not they won't go higher up. You already see this thinking progress on live and the highest it goes is 25%. Think that making it 10%/20%/30%/40% is a good idea. Also -0%/-25%/-50%/-75% less health regeneration while we're at it. -100% as it is on the PTS creates a lot of problems with enjoying this game, especially when going down tricky terrain.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Everyone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Nah, it is over roasted and needs lots of work.
A mere 5% ability increase is not going to lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds Xmeow. I can tell you this from personal experience, because all of my previous builds have survived just fine. They just require you to lower your stage.
5% is not going to make or break any decent build.
And I can tell you from my experience that it is not how you’re making it out to be.
The penalties are too much and misguided. They need to be toned down simple.
Now note what I said, my experience okie.
Then note what you’re saying, your experiences and your builds you play. That doesn’t mean it is okie.
Who knows what your builds are or how you play....It is just your opinion.
ZOS needs to take everyones feedback that has been given the proper way and make their decisions from there.
What is the core issue for me....is that the penalties which most agree for vampires are too harsh. Especially compared with WW’
ZOS just needs to look it over and readjust it. Which is what the PTS is there to do, help tweak issues before going live. Nothing to go in circles about.
Most of the negative feedback is coming as a result of people trying to play builds that are not focused around using vampiric skills at stage 4. In that case, the feedback is not productive because it's a self-inflicted problem.
If you like, you can give me a rough outline of your character and the rotations you use and I'll go test it out for myself on the PTS and see if the 5% penalty truly does hinder it as much as you say. If i find that to be the case, I'll gladly retract my earlier statement. Because though you say it's my opinion (and you're right, I guess it is) it's very difficult for me to view my comment that a 5% ability cost penalty is not going to reduce every Vampire to either RPing or some niche PvP build as anything but fact. It certainly didn't me, and I don't think I am just dreaming it.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 10:41PM1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
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"Tell me your build so I can let you know whether your opinions re: the impending changes to it are valid or not."xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Everyone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Nah, it is over roasted and needs lots of work.
A mere 5% ability increase is not going to lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds Xmeow. I can tell you this from personal experience, because all of my previous builds have survived just fine. They just require you to lower your stage.
5% is not going to make or break any decent build.
And I can tell you from my experience that it is not how you’re making it out to be.
The penalties are too much and misguided. They need to be toned down simple.
Now note what I said, my experience okie.
Then note what you’re saying, your experiences and your builds you play. That doesn’t mean it is okie.
Who knows what your builds are or how you play....It is just your opinion.
ZOS needs to take everyones feedback that has been given the proper way and make their decisions from there.
What is the core issue for me....is that the penalties which most agree for vampires are too harsh. Especially compared with WW’
ZOS just needs to look it over and readjust it. Which is what the PTS is there to do, help tweak issues before going live. Nothing to go in circles about.
Most of the negative feedback is coming as a result of people trying to play builds that are not focused around using vampiric skills at stage 4. In that case, the feedback is not productive because it's a self-inflicted problem.
If you like, you can give me a rough outline of your character and the rotations you use and I'll go test it out for myself on the PTS and see if the 5% penalty truly does hinder it as much as you say. If i find that to be the case, I'll gladly retract my earlier statement. Because though you say it's my opinion (and you're right, I guess it is) it's very difficult for me to view my comment that a 5% ability cost penalty is not going to reduce every Vampire to either RPging or some niche PvP build as anything but fact.
You have zero self-awareness.Edited by Langeston on April 26, 2020 10:46PM7 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If the penalties were not so drastic for feeding I'd totally do it.... up to a point I saw it as worthwhile. Like for example as a magDK I might not want the stage 4 invisibility so I wouldn't go that far. As it stands right now on the PTS its not even really worthwhile to go past stage 1 since it limits what I'm capable of doing. Can I make it work? Sure, yeah I guess I could but I wouldn't go that far when going into PVP. Bad enough flame enchantments, flame siege weapons, and flame abilities exist on multiple classes on top of the Fighter's Guild stuff available to all Stam builds.
Speaking of flame I find it funny they add this cost increase but then lower the overall flame damage. Like... really? If anything they should have raised the flame damage and scrapped the concept of ability cost increases entirely. Flame should be the constant and ever present threat to a vampire's existence, and it should be extreme enough for them to take an active consideration at increasing their stage. Are the benefits worth making this weakness go up? If not they won't go higher up. You already see this thinking progress on live and the highest it goes is 25%. Think that making it 10%/20%/30%/40% is a good idea. Also -0%/-25%/-50%/-75% less health regeneration while we're at it. -100% as it is on the PTS creates a lot of problems with enjoying this game, especially when going down tricky terrain.
I haven't found the latter stages worthwhile on any of my builds either. But I also haven't tried to make a purely Vampiric build yet either - which is obviously what the higher stages are designed for. So that makes sense.
It will be interesting to see what players come up with. Because I suspect some good Stage 4 Vampire-centric builds are on the horizon. But existing builds that were not designed to accommodate the new stages and skills are likely not going to be compatible.
Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 10:47PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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"Tell me your build so I can let you know whether your opinions re: the impending changes to it are valid or not."xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »Sure but a werewolf can still go into Human form and have not drawbacks. 20% increase 100% of the time is not good gameplay or build diversity.
And also have that juicy stam recovery just for having it slotted.
They need to drastically fix things and not box in Vampires to RPing and niche PvP builds but give it more diversity simple.
WW is so much the better option for builds with the changes they made to the puppers. The difference between the two is is quite unbalanced.
Anyone pushing otherwise just is biased towards vampires out of some other agenda. This is certainly not a concern with balance in the least.
c'est la vie
The 5% penalty at stage 1 is very manageable and does not lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds. Everyone one of my Vampire builds prior to Greymoor survived just fine (in fact they were strengthened).
If anything, the Greymooor expansion will increase diversity among Vampires because it allows for more Vampire-centric builds that were not possible before, and without compromising the previous builds that were in place.
Nah, it is over roasted and needs lots of work.
A mere 5% ability increase is not going to lock Vampires into RPing and niche PvP builds Xmeow. I can tell you this from personal experience, because all of my previous builds have survived just fine. They just require you to lower your stage.
5% is not going to make or break any decent build.
And I can tell you from my experience that it is not how you’re making it out to be.
The penalties are too much and misguided. They need to be toned down simple.
Now note what I said, my experience okie.
Then note what you’re saying, your experiences and your builds you play. That doesn’t mean it is okie.
Who knows what your builds are or how you play....It is just your opinion.
ZOS needs to take everyones feedback that has been given the proper way and make their decisions from there.
What is the core issue for me....is that the penalties which most agree for vampires are too harsh. Especially compared with WW’
ZOS just needs to look it over and readjust it. Which is what the PTS is there to do, help tweak issues before going live. Nothing to go in circles about.
Most of the negative feedback is coming as a result of people trying to play builds that are not focused around using vampiric skills at stage 4. In that case, the feedback is not productive because it's a self-inflicted problem.
If you like, you can give me a rough outline of your character and the rotations you use and I'll go test it out for myself on the PTS and see if the 5% penalty truly does hinder it as much as you say. If i find that to be the case, I'll gladly retract my earlier statement. Because though you say it's my opinion (and you're right, I guess it is) it's very difficult for me to view my comment that a 5% ability cost penalty is not going to reduce every Vampire to either RPging or some niche PvP build as anything but fact.
You have zero self-awareness.
I never said anything about letting him know if his opinions were valid or not.
If you are going to quote me, then I would prefer you actually use my words...not put words in my mouth and pretend I said things I never did. So I think you are the one who could do with a bit of "self awareness".
I asked (politely I may add) about his build and rotations because I was interested to go test them out for myself to see. Because I have a hard time believing a 5% penalty could reduce any build to just RPing. But if it turns out I'm wrong and a 5% penalty truly does have such an impact I said I would happily retract the statement. Notice how what I actually said bears absolutely no resemblance to that smug quote you attributed to me.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 10:59PM0 -
Paradisius✭✭✭✭That's a fair argument in respect to vampire healers and tanks who do not incorporate vampire abilities into their tool kits. For those who do though, Geymoor is a substantial buff because they can now use their vampire abilities regularly without having to worry about rapidly advancing to stage 4 and incurring all of the penalties that go along with it. I would also point out the drain can be useful as a tank and mist form could be valuable as a healer, especially in PvP.
But I do take your point as to why a healer or tank who do not use vampire abilities would feel penalized by these changes. Then again, doesn't that beg the question: why even be a vampire in the first place if you don't plan on using any of their skills?
And some of the newer abilities - like mesmerize - could possibly benefit a healer as well, though I'll admit I haven't really experimented with that one yet. And blood frenzy is great for tanks when they have a need for some offense. Your suggestion to add a fire damage increase rather an ability increase looks reasonable. But as I added in my last post , we already know that will likely be ineffective at reserving the vampire skill line for players who actually use vampire abilities - which is a goal for the developers here. Though on second thought, who knows... with the regen passive gone that might would work after all.
I believe that its less of a "I refuse to use vampire abilities" and more of "The vampire abilities currently dont offer anything to compliment my role" Drain could be useful but leaves you vulnerable to interrupts, however mistform will be of universal popular use in pvp. And yes, blood frenzy offers an offensive boost, such boost is not really a compliment to the role and more of like a universal benefit should the need arise (For example if your group dps is lacking). As for the "why?" it may just be character rp, ive seen people say they like to think of their characters as this vampiric being, and to still be a healer as per their character personalities. This new iteration of vampire makes that a rough pill to swallow when you cant make good use of the vampire abilities and have a 5% cost increase at the lowest stage.
Now reworking these abilities this late into development seems silly at best, so a less sever punishment at earlier stages could make these people feel like they can be a vampire, and invest into those abilities (With the catch of a higher cost due to vampirism stage 1) should they find a situation to do so.4 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Speaking of flame I find it funny they add this cost increase but then lower the overall flame damage. Like... really? If anything they should have raised the flame damage and scrapped the concept of ability cost increases entirely. Flame should be the constant and ever present threat to a vampire's existence, and it should be extreme enough for them to take an active consideration at increasing their stage. Are the benefits worth making this weakness go up? If not they won't go higher up. You already see this thinking progress on live and the highest it goes is 25%. Think that making it 10%/20%/30%/40% is a good idea. Also -0%/-25%/-50%/-75% less health regeneration while we're at it. -100% as it is on the PTS creates a lot of problems with enjoying this game, especially when going down tricky terrain.
-75% health recovery is what we currently have and I can tell you even at that level it's basically not even an issue. Pushing that all the way to -100% though, that makes an impact because now your only source of healing is healing actions. Spells, potions, that sort of thing. Definitely noticeable when going over rough terrain, like you said.
Now, with regards to the fire damage, I'm not so sure about bumping that up. Or at least, we'd need some testing done. The thing is, that gets coupled with the health recovery debuff, so it adds up to a much greater effect than looking at the two of them individually does."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
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I haven't found the latter stages worthwhile on any of my builds either. But I also haven't tried to make a purely Vampiric build yet either - which is obviously what the higher stages are designed for. So that makes sense.
It will be interesting to see what players come up with. Because I suspect some good Stage 4 Vampire-centric builds are on the horizon. But existing builds that were not designed to accommodate the new stages and skills are likely not going to be compatible.
My disappointment is the fact my build and play style doesn't work with ZOS's intended vampire play style. If anything it doesn't feel vampiric but more like a werewolf with a different resource being used. I wanna play a refined vampire that's a master of powerful spells and manipulation like the Cyrodiil Vampyrum Order, The Spell swords of the Aundae, or the strong and powerful warriors of the Quarra clan. I don't wanna be an over glorified blood fiend swiping at people with their long finger nails.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK7 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »Now reworking these abilities this late into development seems silly at best, so a less sever punishment at earlier stages could make these people feel like they can be a vampire, and invest into those abilities (With the catch of a higher cost due to vampirism stage 1) should they find a situation to do so.
A complete rework? No, I don't think anyone is asking for that. Adjustments to current numbers or the removal and/or replacement of certain stats, now that is entirely within reason and is in fact the express purpose of putting something like this on the PTS for everyone to play around with before it goes to Live."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Paradisius wrote: »That's a fair argument in respect to vampire healers and tanks who do not incorporate vampire abilities into their tool kits. For those who do though, Geymoor is a substantial buff because they can now use their vampire abilities regularly without having to worry about rapidly advancing to stage 4 and incurring all of the penalties that go along with it. I would also point out the drain can be useful as a tank and mist form could be valuable as a healer, especially in PvP.
But I do take your point as to why a healer or tank who do not use vampire abilities would feel penalized by these changes. Then again, doesn't that beg the question: why even be a vampire in the first place if you don't plan on using any of their skills?
And some of the newer abilities - like mesmerize - could possibly benefit a healer as well, though I'll admit I haven't really experimented with that one yet. And blood frenzy is great for tanks when they have a need for some offense. Your suggestion to add a fire damage increase rather an ability increase looks reasonable. But as I added in my last post , we already know that will likely be ineffective at reserving the vampire skill line for players who actually use vampire abilities - which is a goal for the developers here. Though on second thought, who knows... with the regen passive gone that might would work after all.
I believe that its less of a "I refuse to use vampire abilities" and more of "The vampire abilities currently dont offer anything to compliment my role" Drain could be useful but leaves you vulnerable to interrupts, however mistform will be of universal popular use in pvp. And yes, blood frenzy offers an offensive boost, such boost is not really a compliment to the role and more of like a universal benefit should the need arise (For example if your group dps is lacking). As for the "why?" it may just be character rp, ive seen people say they like to think of their characters as this vampiric being, and to still be a healer as per their character personalities. This new iteration of vampire makes that a rough pill to swallow when you cant make good use of the vampire abilities and have a 5% cost increase at the lowest stage.
Now reworking these abilities this late into development seems silly at best, so a less sever punishment at earlier stages could make these people feel like they can be a vampire, and invest into those abilities (With the catch of a higher cost due to vampirism stage 1) should they find a situation to do so.
Alright. I'll concede for the sake of argument that vampire abilities are limited as they apply directly to the role of tanking and healing (though I still maintain tanks and healers can make good use of their abilities).
But isn't the better solution for players who find no use for vampire abilities simply not to become vampires? I mean if that is the case, what is even the point of wanting to become one? Especially now since there is no longer the coveted 10% regen passive?Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 11:06PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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I haven't found the latter stages worthwhile on any of my builds either. But I also haven't tried to make a purely Vampiric build yet either - which is obviously what the higher stages are designed for. So that makes sense.
It will be interesting to see what players come up with. Because I suspect some good Stage 4 Vampire-centric builds are on the horizon. But existing builds that were not designed to accommodate the new stages and skills are likely not going to be compatible.
My disappointment is the fact my build and play style doesn't work with ZOS's intended vampire play style. If anything it doesn't feel vampiric but more like a werewolf with a different resource being used. I wanna play a refined vampire that's a master of powerful spells and manipulation like the Cyrodiil Vampyrum Order, The Spell swords of the Aundae, or the strong and powerful warriors of the Quarra clan. I don't wanna be an over glorified blood fiend swiping at people with their long finger nails.
Have you tried your build at stage 1?
Because unless your build emphasizes Vampiric skills, it's not intended for the higher stages.
So you can still be a refined Vampire that is a master of powerful spells. You just have to lay off the "corruption" and not become a blood fiend swiping at people. The choice is still yours.
I don't play any of my Vampire builds at stage 4 and I'm having a blast with them.Edited by Jeremy on April 26, 2020 11:10PM1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭But isn't the better solution for players who find no use for Vampire abilities simply not to become vampires?
Not at this stage, no. And not if we want to stay in keeping with the overall concept of vampires as they have been since the beginning of TES series.
Vampirism has always been a bit like putting an accent on your character, except that accent is things like bad sunburn, aversion to fire, a liquid diet, etc. It has never, ever been about strictly adhering to a single, extremely narrow set of abilities. Even werewolves get more freedom than that, despite being all about the transformation into a beast. Vampires have always been a very versatile playstyle, able to be mages or warriors or thieves or whatever else. And no, not because they could just feed and be an almost-not-a-vampire. It's because the vampirism integrated into whatever you were already doing. It didn't ever overwrite it with some predefined, alien loadout and force you to do things that way."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, you mean.
There is no reason for anyone to become a Vampire if they can find no use for their abilities. That should be common sense, and is exactly what the developers were aiming for.Vampirism has always been a bit like putting an accent on your character, except that accent is things like bad sunburn, aversion to fire, a liquid diet, etc. It has never, ever been about strictly adhering to a single, extremely narrow set of abilities. Even werewolves get more freedom than that, despite being all about the transformation into a beast. Vampires have always been a very versatile playstyle, able to be mages or warriors or thieves or whatever else. And no, not because they could just feed and be an almost-not-a-vampire. It's because the vampirism integrated into whatever you were already doing. It didn't ever overwrite it with some predefined, alien loadout and force you to do things that way.
As I've told you countless times before, the option to play as a "versatile" vampire that still utilizes elements of mages, warriors, thieves or what ever else are still available to you by playing at the lower stages. If you let these bizarre notions of not being a complete vampire (or what ever it is) keep you from doing that because you for some reason feel you must play as a stage 4 vampire then I can't help you.
Sometimes you have to bend with the wind or break.
Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2020 12:03AM1
