The vampire cost increase is good because....

Nemesis7884 · April 2020

look we can talk about adjustments of values, i have no problems with that and this is part of the fine tuning of this pts circle

But i think there should definitely be a cost for being a vampire that strongly encourages you to either commit to being a vampire and using vampire skills or not to.

Having 90% of people being vampires just to get some passive benefits but never really using vampire skills or playing as a vampire is not only immersion breaking it is also not worth ZOS time and not worth ours...

And if people think there should be another mechanic or tool that encourages players for that commitment (without making vampires simply op in the process) than we can talk about that... if your opinion is that it should simply be a bunch of passive bonuses and skills you can freely choose from and have not drawbacks than sorry but i strongly disagree and think this would be awful.

LeHarrt91 · April 2020

What if the stages benefits/ drawbacks had a per Vampire skills slotted requirement? So the more skills slotted the lesser the drawback was and the higher the benefit was?

Deathlord92 · April 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

look we can talk about adjustments of values, i have no problems with that and this is part of the fine tuning of this pts circle

But i think there should definitely be a cost for being a vampire that strongly encourages you to either commit to being a vampire and using vampire skills or not to.

Having 90% of people being vampires just to get some passive benefits but never really using vampire skills or playing as a vampire is not only immersion breaking it is also not worth ZOS time and not worth ours...

And if people think there should be another mechanic or tool that encourages players for that commitment (without making vampires simply op in the process) than we can talk about that... if your opinion is that it should simply be a bunch of passive bonuses and skills you can freely choose from and have not drawbacks than sorry but i strongly disagree and think this would be awful.

If they gave a stamina morph to the vampire spammable hell yeah I be all for it I know what you are saying as a nb I am already seeing mark being op to the vampire build zero cost but as many have stated there’s no vampire burst heal very important in pvp and I imagine pve to many are going to suffer and no other class has access to a free cost major fracture/breach

Nemesis7884 · April 2020

and there you go...

and if you are wondering why we can never had nice things and thematically sound skill lines its exactly this need for some people to min-max everything with no regard to thematic and rp aspects...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRZD4Jm5SJU

Morgul667 · April 2020

This change makes no sense whatsoever

idk · April 2020

I see what OP is trying to say but it is nothing more than an opinion. I see no actual reference to how this all plays out via actual testing to create an informed opinion.

AndyMac · April 2020

I just ran vMA on PTS with FG on my Breton MagDK who is stage 4 vamp - I only noticed a couple of times when I ran out of mag - even then one or two heavies fixed it. Tbh, it wasn’t especially different to a live run.

So there’s no particular reason to bin vamp at this stage in any of that.

The current drawbacks need to be considered of course. You’d get a sustain and health boost just by doing it. Plus there is a LOT of serious fire damage in end game - both PVE and PVP.

Increased sustain and health regen plus reduced vulnerability matter for sure.

The new skills look OK but they’re not especially compelling really - they seem to be added flavour more than anything else.

Im not desperate about it based on what I saw on PTS, but I’ll likely seriously consider getting rid of vamp.

The new “improved” vampire looks great if you like doing vampy stuff - but a liability for endgame, on balance.

I hope ZOS wasn’t planning to make a ton of cash from these changes but they almost certainly are. That’s looking doubtful rn 😂

As always, I’ll be waiting to see what hits live before making any decisions.

Narvuntien · April 2020

So I have tested it.

The problem is that there is no PvE bonus for going all the way up to level 4, there is some PvP bonus for level 2, the level 4 bonus appears to just be a solo questers fun to be able to avoid all the combat.

So for PVE vampire abilities are magicka or health based.

Eviscerate is a melee magicka attack and so pretty much useless for PVE (except MagDK who struggle with sustain already). I really don't know why the arterial flow morph isn't ranged so it would be useful.

Frenzy: weapon/spell damage at the cost of HP is really strong when you have a full self heals available I am concerned you'll just kill yourself in PVP though.

Vampire drain: Doesn't do damage, so even with stamina or ulti gen without damage its a tank skill I guess...

Mist form: Is mist form

Vampire Lord: The transformation animation is long and the uptime is relatively short, too short to use Perfected scion to avoid the negatives in PvE.

The problem here is that the abilities are not synergistic enough to make up for the cost increases because a full vampire is basically using only two skills Arterial flow and Simmering Frenzy and everything else costs +20% (and they are forced to play in Melee)

I still hit 30K dps (MagNB self buffed 3 mil dummy) on a dummy so if you are a vampire for RP reasons you'll still be able to do content.

Lintashi · April 2020

What is strange, that topic starter wants people to rp as vampire, to make vampirism itself stand out in builds, but this current vampires are completely not lore friendly. You make average human fight a mudcrab, then mighty overlord of night fights mudcrab with same build as human, and performes worse. I play as vampire healer, roleplay it like my character dedicated centuries to learning all mysteries of life and death, and suddenly, any fresh young human surpasses my vamp in every heal possible. How lore friendly!

Banana · April 2020

Less vamps around is good.

Mindcr0w · April 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

But i think there should definitely be a cost for being a vampire that strongly encourages you to either commit to being a vampire and using vampire skills or not to.

That philosophy would work if there were enough vampire skills to round out a rotation. Doesn't really work for instance with a dps rotation with only one vamp ability that actually does damage.

With at least 2 or 3 I'd be more on board.

Savos_Saren · April 2020

Vampire VS Werewolf is no comparison at all.

Vampire = fire damage increase, 0% health recovery, 20% skill increase

Werewolf= poison damage increase

And for those of you saying "Well, you get to use other skills as a vampire..." Vampire skills aren't NEARLY AS STRONG as Werewolf skills. As a werewolf- you can buff, pounce, howl, and claw an enemy with a single rotation. A vampire does not have a specific rotation to combo-kill an enemy. The only class that could *maybe* benefit fully as a vampire is MagBlade.

Prove me wrong. Have a new werewolf vs a new vampire fight against each other in PTS.

mb10 · April 2020

Drawbacks are simply way more substantial than what you gain

grannas211 · April 2020

It’s lame AF everyone being a vampire. Make the cost increase 100%

Toanis · April 2020

Sure, vampirism currently is mainly a roll-playing thing where, you min/max the cost and benefits. That's out of the window the moment you get no passive benefit but still increased fire damage, getting also increased weapon cost is overkill.

For role-playing, the main disadvantage of vampirism was/is the Sith face, and not only will that not be changed, it will be much harder to get back to the stage 1 look after actually using your vampire abilities.

Massive mechanical disadvantages to vampire chars make them mainly an option for solo play, and in that corner ESO has to compete with dedicated vampire RPGs and adventures, like Bloodlines 2, Vampyr and Coteries of New York.

Banana wrote: »

Less vamps around is good.

Why though? Indirect Dawnbreaker nerf? No more pressure to get skins?

Paradisius · April 2020

Toanis wrote: »

Sure, vampirism currently is mainly a roll-playing thing where, you min/max the cost and benefits. That's out of the window the moment you get no passive benefit but still increased fire damage, getting also increased weapon cost is overkill.

For role-playing, the main disadvantage of vampirism was/is the Sith face, and not only will that not be changed, it will be much harder to get back to the stage 1 look after actually using your vampire abilities.

Massive mechanical disadvantages to vampire chars make them mainly an option for solo play, and in that corner ESO has to compete with dedicated vampire RPGs and adventures, like Bloodlines 2, Vampyr and Coteries of New York.

Well, if youre a vampire it makes sense to have to look like one unless you throw a skin on. And Im not sure if you tested the PTS yourself but using vampire skills no longer shortens your vampire timer, so the fear of increasing your stage just by using abilities is out the window.

Mayrael · April 2020

The cost increase is good because all just want free cloak, that's all they care, it should come with great cost as it is now!

Edit:
Vampire is now stand alone class just like werewolf, it has it all but is way much more flexible. You still can use your class and weapon skills but at greater cost, it's very very good implementation, I give ZOS big credit for it

Toanis · April 2020

Paradisius wrote: »

Well, if youre a vampire it makes sense to have to look like one unless you throw a skin on. And Im not sure if you tested the PTS yourself but using vampire skills no longer shortens your vampire timer, so the fear of increasing your stage just by using abilities is out the window.

Drinking blood, especially with that new animation is the defining activity of a vampire, so that's what roleplayers want to do when they choose to play a vampire. But while those are the people that spend hours in character generation, they will likely have an issue with having to stand in a corner for several hours after feeding to get back to a fairly decent look.

The majority of vampires in fiction are pale, yet handsome seducers, except in the moment when they feed on their victim or when they are starved. I dare say the number of players who want to play a dessicated werebat is pretty low. And even when ESO/TES wants to feed the "Our ... are different" trope, not everything that looks reasonable on paper works in practice.

Paradisius · April 2020

Toanis wrote: »

Drinking blood, especially with that new animation is the defining activity of a vampire, so that's what roleplayers want to do when they choose to play a vampire. But while those are the people that spend hours in character generation, they will likely have an issue with having to stand in a corner for several hours after feeding to get back to a fairly decent look.

The majority of vampires in fiction are pale, yet handsome seducers, except in the moment when they feed on their victim or when they are starved. I dare say the number of players who want to play a dessicated werebat is pretty low. And even when ESO/TES wants to feed the "Our ... are different" trope, not everything that looks reasonable on paper works in practice.

I don't quite understand, to me your saying that time is an issue, yet as I stated that vampire abilities do not advance your stage. If you want the pale red eyed vampire stage 1, all you need to do is simply not feed, vampire abilities no longer advance the stage, and time passing lowers] the stage. So it seems to work in your favor

ElliottXO · April 2020

I am so glad I don't have to force myself being a vampire just to be FOM (more like flavor of the past years). Let's see if 20% ability cost increase is too much or not, but finally there is a real trade-off.

[Snip]

[Edited for bait]

Toanis · April 2020

Paradisius wrote: »

I don't quite understand, to me your saying that time is an issue, yet as I stated that vampire abilities do not advance your stage. If you want the pale red eyed vampire stage 1, all you need to do is simply not feed.

My point is that there is no point in roleplaying a vampire when you can't drink blood.

With no point in roleplaying a vampire, and no point in using vampirism for mechanical advantages, vampirism becomes a niche option for a small group of people, willing to cripple their character for MMO content in order to be able to play an ugly monster. Every minute of work that went into ruining vampirism for the majority of vampire players is time that could have been better invested elsewhere.

Paradisius · April 2020

Toanis wrote: »

My point is that there is no point in roleplaying a vampire when you can't drink blood.

With no point in roleplaying a vampire, and no point in using vampirism for mechanic advantages, vampirism becomes a niche option for a small group of people, willing to gimp their characters for MMO content in order to be able to play an ugly monster. Every minute of work that went into ruining vampirism for the majority of vampire players is time that could have been better invested elsewhere.

I see, well I believe the appearance bit is a matter of taste then. However I do agree with you in the second part, vampirism is now for a much more condensed group, but honestly? I don't think I have a problem with such a change. Is the vampiric debuff too strong? perhaps, but otherwise would anyone really not pick vampires? (Otherwise, ironically enough, they wanted to not be a vampire due to rp reasons). On the current servers they offer 2 great passives, one of which nearly negates the stage 4 debuffs entirely. Id rather them find a middle ground with the debuffs to not be as taxing, but still avoid the issue of most of the playerbase negating the debuffs and only use it for undeath and blood frenzy.

Canned_Apples · April 2020

They should never base anything off of RP. The RP community is far smaller than the min-max/pvp/casual community.
Maybe 0.01% of people actually play with “RP” skills.

The vampire skill line/rework- like all the other reworks/changes- are a bust.

Feedback is often ignored so.... yeah.

Mayrael · April 2020

Canned_Apples wrote: »

They should never base anything off of RP. The RP community is far smaller than the min-max/pvp/casual community.
Maybe 0.01% of people actually play with “RP” skills.

The vampire skill line/rework- like all the other reworks/changes- are a bust.

Feedback is often ignored so.... yeah.

Because feedback =/= always good ideas. Players are players, they will all vote for broken things just because they want to abuse them, role of developer is to make things balanced. ZOS is not perfect in this matter, but few really is, and their ReVamp is made actually very good. It is very flexible and can be utilized in many ways. Vampires are no longer passive buffs for class, that's all. If you want to play vampire you will be stronger, if you picked vamp just to buff your class, sorry that's not going to happen anymore.

Septimus_Magna · April 2020

First off, I like the fact that vamp is no longer just used for the passive regen.

But I think the trade-off is too big in most cases. You basically have to give up most of your class, weapon and guild skills to make vamp work. In pve players are struggling with a 5% cost increase from NMA that only comes with benefits.

For ultimates I honestly think the cost increase is fine, you're a vampire so you should feel the need to use the vamp form ult. For normal abilities I think the cost increase should be less, something like 2/4/6/8% would be better suited. There are already drawbacks for being a vamp with the reduced flame resist and health regen, adding a significant cost increase for most abilities seems over the top.

Another option would be to reduce healing taken for vamp stages by 10/20/30/40%, lore-wise I think this would make more sense than a cost increase for powerful magical beings.

ZaroktheImmortal · April 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

(to normal skills on stage 4) it forces people to either dedicate themselves to being a vampire or not - same as with werewolves... no just slapping on some passive benefits without truly being living as a vampire and also dedicating a character / rping to it and that is GOOD

less non lore friendly shallow min maxing and more dedication to a theme that comes with benefits and drawbacks

Cause werewolves are forced to have their penalties at all times and can't just be a werewolf without even changing? Oh wait, they can. And rping it? Not everyone on the game does roleplay.

ZaroktheImmortal · April 2020

Also if we're going into rping our roles sorcerers and necromancers should not be stam. Werewolves should be forced to change on a full moon. And we shouldn't be able to do quest in other alliance areas in fact if we are to travel there they should attack us on sight. I mean why are they fine with someone of another alliance being around there especially if they are a race belonging to that? In fact they'd probably be suspicious of anyone of a race of another alliance trying to help them so no races of other alliances. Oh what else. Magic characters why are you joining fighters guild and stam why are you joining mages guild? That's totally not right in rp play your characters dammit clearly this game is all about roleplaying. And you all have to make up back stories for your characters now. And why are we all doing the same starting quests if we're rping as characters? Everyone needs one tailored to their specific character background. We're also to only talk IC unless using ooc tags so no more asking for help in chat. Tamerial doesn't have phones. In fact eliminate whispers.

ZaroktheImmortal · April 2020

Actually should get rid of zone chat all together only able to talk to people if they're within hearing distance. This is RP dammit.

Sarannah · April 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

(to normal skills on stage 4) it forces people to either dedicate themselves to being a vampire or not - same as with werewolves... no just slapping on some passive benefits without truly being living as a vampire and also dedicating a character / rping to it and that is GOOD

less non lore friendly shallow min maxing and more dedication to a theme that comes with benefits and drawbacks

Dedicate to being a vampire?... that means if one chooses to become one, that would be all they could realistically do in the game on that character. And still be hindered by the drawbacks, and maintaining the form. It is a game for crying out loud!

Some people who find the game too easy, seem to have used the vampire remake to convince ZOS to use that form to make the game artificially harder. This should never happen. Noone besides the 0.1% who find the game too easy would ever play a vampire again.

Lotus781 · April 2020

Seems they are pandering to a non existing minority of roleplayers but that sadly is the times we live in, the needs of the few outway the needs of the many.