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New Player Perspective: Major Problems With ESO
Amunari
✭✭✭
Player Vs Player Combat
The first major issue I experience with Elder Scrolls Online Is the power creep in Player vs Player Battlegrounds and Cyrodiiil. At the heart of player vers player combat is team work, and gear massively devalues the construct of team work. If one person can one shot your entire team and never die, what is even the point of team work? As a designer i believe one of the key fundamentals to longevity is what i term "player cooperative and competitive content". When this aspect is removed from the game the retention rates are significantly reduced, or are non-existent in a game.
Solution: Limit or set the gear level at the same level, or with in a 15% variance.
Fix Urgency: High
PvP Abuse by PvE Centric Player base
I keep repeatedly running into players who are really bad in player vs player battlegrounds who only then chuck it up to "I am just here for experience". This tells me that some major changes need to take place to discourage players from these types of mindsets and lack of effort in game play.
Solution: Create a base gain rate for "rewards", then a bonus rate for personal performance. Non-Combat related activities (capturing a base for example, but not something like carrying a ball) should not yield any bonus points toward gear, or bonus parcipation
Fix Urgency: Moderate
Lack of PvP Group Queuing
This is one of those things that absolutely turns me off about pvp in Elder Scrolls Online. I am absolutely enraged at this issue above all other major issues in this game. I would rather deal with the lag and get this option then not have lag and queue alone. Zos you should be ashamed of yourself removing this option and not adding it in some other queue / bracket this was a major ball drop on your part
Solution: Create Ranked PvP Queues that enable group / premade queuing. For bonus points make guilds incorporated (for example guilds make "teams" and can have so many, and players join the teams, and then the ranking ladder displays the team, its name, and guild its representing).
Fix Urgency: Extremely High
Dungeon Queues and abuse from players
No doubt there are some serious challenges to loose class design, and undoubtedly there are some amazing benefits to it. Of one of the major challenges that Elder scrolls Online faces, abuse of what role you "queue" as another major issue. Players are queuing as the role "healer" to damage.
Solution: The solution to this problem can be addressed in many ways. For example you could require specific spells of a specific type( for example 5 healing spells required ) and then lock all builds while in a dungeon after combat initially starts. However my out of the box thinking actually would advocate for another way to take this, one that will require a little more attention in other parts of the game (for example pvp which can then be nerfed by some diminishing returns system). I would advocate changing a few spells to have things like "when you deal damage, you heal up to 5 allies for x amount of life " as a "morph" on a few abilities. Let them queue as damage as long as they heal, and heal enough to keep the group a live.
Fix Urgency: Moderate
Performance Issues
This is a major issue, and it seems to be something the development team is undoubtedly aware of which is concerning as a designer because it tells me that this is a really big issue and player base really are not capable of tackling the seriousness of this problem. Either this is a hardware issue, or a coding issue. If it is the fore the management are in need of increasing the server hardware via upgrades to resolve the issue. If it is a code related issue then a simple solution of taking an easy day on Fridays and doing code revisions and bug fixes would help improve the stability of the game, and remove its bugs.
Fix Urgency: Very High
Trading
It is really unclear from a UI and UX design perspective where to sell things.
Solution: Rename "guild store" to "auction house" and redesign the buttons for "post" and "sell" to text based buttons marked "post" and "sell" instead of graphic-icons.
Fix Urgency: Low
Housing And Guild Halls
The concept of player housing is amazing in Elder Scrolls Online. How you can start exposure to them with these small rooms we can only call "luxury coffins" is beyond me. They are a massive turn off to something that is clearly a massive hit in the game. In fact because of the massive success the game should massively shift a lot of its focus and development resources into making these even better then they are now.
Solution: make the smaller houses larger and close the gap between the difference (in size) of small houses and large. Introduce guild halls (working like houses) and monetize it.
Fix Urgency: Low
Edited by Amunari on April 21, 2020 8:52AM The first major issue I experience with Elder Scrolls Online Is the power creep in Player vs Player Battlegrounds and Cyrodiiil. At the heart of player vers player combat is team work, and gear massively devalues the construct of team work. If one person can one shot your entire team and never die, what is even the point of team work? As a designer i believe one of the key fundamentals to longevity is what i term "player cooperative and competitive content". When this aspect is removed from the game the retention rates are significantly reduced, or are non-existent in a game.
Solution: Limit or set the gear level at the same level, or with in a 15% variance.
Fix Urgency: High
PvP Abuse by PvE Centric Player base
I keep repeatedly running into players who are really bad in player vs player battlegrounds who only then chuck it up to "I am just here for experience". This tells me that some major changes need to take place to discourage players from these types of mindsets and lack of effort in game play.
Solution: Create a base gain rate for "rewards", then a bonus rate for personal performance. Non-Combat related activities (capturing a base for example, but not something like carrying a ball) should not yield any bonus points toward gear, or bonus parcipation
Fix Urgency: Moderate
Lack of PvP Group Queuing
This is one of those things that absolutely turns me off about pvp in Elder Scrolls Online. I am absolutely enraged at this issue above all other major issues in this game. I would rather deal with the lag and get this option then not have lag and queue alone. Zos you should be ashamed of yourself removing this option and not adding it in some other queue / bracket this was a major ball drop on your part
Solution: Create Ranked PvP Queues that enable group / premade queuing. For bonus points make guilds incorporated (for example guilds make "teams" and can have so many, and players join the teams, and then the ranking ladder displays the team, its name, and guild its representing).
Fix Urgency: Extremely High
Dungeon Queues and abuse from players
No doubt there are some serious challenges to loose class design, and undoubtedly there are some amazing benefits to it. Of one of the major challenges that Elder scrolls Online faces, abuse of what role you "queue" as another major issue. Players are queuing as the role "healer" to damage.
Solution: The solution to this problem can be addressed in many ways. For example you could require specific spells of a specific type( for example 5 healing spells required ) and then lock all builds while in a dungeon after combat initially starts. However my out of the box thinking actually would advocate for another way to take this, one that will require a little more attention in other parts of the game (for example pvp which can then be nerfed by some diminishing returns system). I would advocate changing a few spells to have things like "when you deal damage, you heal up to 5 allies for x amount of life " as a "morph" on a few abilities. Let them queue as damage as long as they heal, and heal enough to keep the group a live.
Fix Urgency: Moderate
Performance Issues
This is a major issue, and it seems to be something the development team is undoubtedly aware of which is concerning as a designer because it tells me that this is a really big issue and player base really are not capable of tackling the seriousness of this problem. Either this is a hardware issue, or a coding issue. If it is the fore the management are in need of increasing the server hardware via upgrades to resolve the issue. If it is a code related issue then a simple solution of taking an easy day on Fridays and doing code revisions and bug fixes would help improve the stability of the game, and remove its bugs.
Fix Urgency: Very High
Trading
It is really unclear from a UI and UX design perspective where to sell things.
Solution: Rename "guild store" to "auction house" and redesign the buttons for "post" and "sell" to text based buttons marked "post" and "sell" instead of graphic-icons.
Fix Urgency: Low
Housing And Guild Halls
The concept of player housing is amazing in Elder Scrolls Online. How you can start exposure to them with these small rooms we can only call "luxury coffins" is beyond me. They are a massive turn off to something that is clearly a massive hit in the game. In fact because of the massive success the game should massively shift a lot of its focus and development resources into making these even better then they are now.
Solution: make the smaller houses larger and close the gap between the difference (in size) of small houses and large. Introduce guild halls (working like houses) and monetize it.
Fix Urgency: Low
8
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Mancombe_Nosehair✭✭✭✭✭Oh fantastic! Another developer thread!Edited by Mancombe_Nosehair on April 21, 2020 8:45AM22
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Amunari✭✭✭Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Oh fantastic! Another developer thread!
Serious Question: Are you here to troll, or help the game be better?7 -
redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a designerMancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Oh fantastic! Another developer thread!
Nope, it's designer now
@Amunari mind telling what do you develop and design? Not trolling, genuinely curious.
Well at least they don't falsely advertise themselves in the title of the thread.0 -
Mancombe_Nosehair✭✭✭✭✭Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Oh fantastic! Another developer thread!
Serious Question: Are you here to troll, or help the game be better?
Nobody at Zos is reading this forum. Why would they? Think about it.
May as well have fun while we are at it. Your previous thread was hilarious, it will be quite nice to have another to laugh at.
This forum has deviated so far from what it is supposed to be, we might as well have fun round here.Edited by Mancombe_Nosehair on April 21, 2020 8:58AM2 -
redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭Inn room are, except perhaps from thw one in Mara's Kiss, a perfect introduction. They're small and manageable to decorate when you're still new and don't know many recipes or have much in the way of money. Giving the playersomething bigger may indeed be a big turn off because it easyily feels overwhelming to try and outfit.
Mara's Kiss inn room is ridiculously tiny, still I'm determined to do something with it.2 -
bearbelly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Creating a near-mirror image of a closed thread (with just a different title) is going to lead to the same result.
Someone who claims to be a "developer" should be smart enough to realize that, unless they are so full of their self that they can't see anything else.4 -
Mancombe_Nosehair✭✭✭✭✭Have you considered a career in comedy?
Ps after yesterday's thread, you're my hero.6 -
Amunari✭✭✭Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Have you considered a career in comedy?
Ps after yesterday's thread, you're my hero.
"Comedy" is not for us elves. We are stern, intelligent, observant, Wise, Knowledgeable, genius, crafty, skilled, beautiful, hansom, lovely, kind, benevolent and some times malevolent (here's looking at you dark elf cousins), but never, ever in 10,000 years will you find an elf that is "funny", a dwarf.. maybe, but never an elf.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are a new player and, no offense, it shows.
1. The more experience you get, the less of a problem 1vXers are going to be. Advice: stick together with your team and don't let yourself be pulled around into a series of 1v1s by someone using line of sight to run around rocks, trees, and towers. Most successful 1vX only happens when the X play like potatoes.
2.Not happening. You will come to understand that ZOS doesn't draw the same distinction between PVP playerbase and PVE playerbase as rhe playera do. Instead, ZOS consistently demonstrates that they want ALL players to,at least try ALL of the content, and they incentivize that in various ways. BGs include daily random exp, fast AP, and style pages for those incentives. So while,the MMR could be better, you aren't going to remove PVEers - that's working as intended.
3. Assuming you mean BGs, ZOS has been trying to sort out the Battleground MMR since Morrowind. ZOS has been trying to sort out the premade/random problem since Morrowind.
If you were talking about Cyrodiil, the groupfinder option was removed because nobody used it. Try typing LFG in zone instead or, better yet, find a PVP guild to play with.
4. There are some skills that do exactly what you want, but given that crosshealing is currently a major thing in PVP, you have just discovered the issues inherent with trying to balance PVP and PVE together.
And no, it doesn't work to lock players into certain skills when there are bosses where it's better for certain roles to change - such as untauntable bosses where my tank needs to do more damage instead. "Locking" player skills/gear just isn't a practical solution to fake roles.
5. Yes, these need to be fixed. No, its not going to happen as fast as we like. Have you noticed the stickied official thread on plans for improving Performance? Here you go: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487396/official-discussion-thread-for-esos-performance-improvements-plan#latest
6. You are apparently new enough that you haven't figured out that Auction House threads are beating a dead horse around these parts. With a little practice, you'll figure out the UI even if its not what you are used to.
7. Finally, something that the housing community would love.
Most of these aren't major problems, and of the ones that are (Battlegrounds MMR/queues and Performance), you haven't said anything that ZOS hasn't heard from many others.Edited by VaranisArano on April 21, 2020 9:19AM10 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Have you considered a career in comedy?
Ps after yesterday's thread, you're my hero.
"Comedy" is not for us elves. We are stern, intelligent, observant, Wise, Knowledgeable, genius, crafty, skilled, beautiful, hansom, lovely, kind, benevolent and some times malevolent (here's looking at you dark elf cousins), but never, ever in 10,000 years will you find an elf that is "funny", a dwarf.. maybe, but never an elf.
Wood elves are funny because they are smol and speak with cockney accent
High elves are funny as English aristocrats
Dark elves are funny because N'wah
1 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is why ZOS should require prerequisites from players for feedback.
Newer players do not have the practical experience in PvP to really present any meaningful changes.
Same with PVE....Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Oh fantastic! Another developer thread!
Serious Question: Are you here to troll, or help the game be better?
Seems like you were trolling Cx.
I am not being rude towards you. Truly thought this post was a lighthearted joke to make people smile during troubled times.4 -
Amunari✭✭✭You are a new player and, no offense, it shows.
1. The more experience you get, the less of a problem 1vXers are going to be. Advice: stick together with your team and don't let yourself be pulled around into a series of 1v1s by someone using line of sight to run around rocks, trees, and towers. Most successful 1vX only happens when the X play like potatoes.
I am not interested in "do this and this will not be an issue" Arguments to problems. They are the opinions of a smaller group (the hardcore players, which btw i am one) not of people that actually want to fix the problem.
Your advocating that one player fixes the issue for themselves, but the dev team can fix all future problems with this one issue. I am not looking to fix it for me, i am looking to fix the problem, period.
2.Not happening. You will come to understand that ZOS doesn't draw the same distinction between PVP playerbase and PVE playerbase as rhe playera do. Instead, ZOS consistently demonstrates that they want ALL players to at least try ALL of the content, and the incentivize that in various ways. BGs include daily random exp, fast AP, and style pages for those incentives. So while,the MMR could be better, you aren't going to remove PVEers - that's working as intended.
About 85% of the population of a game are casual, the other remaining 15% (ish) are hardcore players. In a typical mmo, about 46% Of the player base does pvp in some capacity. These are cross-industry metrics (the averages across mmos if you will).
Since half of the population (ish) does pvp, we have a strong argument to fixing any type of "bad experience" that comes from it. I am not against pvers being in pvp, as most of that 46% are not pvp eccentric (focused) players, actually a small portion are. So the issue here is not to remove pvers from pvp, its to remove the "im in pvp, to get experience". the difference here is removing a type of player from the battleground verses removing the mentality " i dont care if you win or lose, elf, im here for booty, and im talking about the ones found on pirate ships".
3. Assuming you mean BGs, ZOS has been trying to sort out the Battleground MMR since Morrowind. ZOS has been trying to sort out the premade/random problem since Morrowind.
If you were talking about Cyrodiil, the groupfinder option was removed because nobody used it. Try typing LFG in zone instead or, better yet, find a PVP guild to play with.
I am talking about battlegrounds specifically (chaos ball, etc). Cyrodiil is another mess, and I am thinking about it in more depth. I think some stream lining and playing with values (health, damage) and what can kill what along with objectives (capture bonus etc) is the solution there.
4. There are some skills that do exactly what you want, but given that crosshealing is currently a major thing in PVP, you have just discovered the issues inherent with trying to balance PVP and PVE together.
And no, it doesn't work to lock players into certain skills when there are bosses where it's better for certain roles to change - such as untauntable bosses where my tank needs to do more damage instead. "Locking" player skills/gear just isn't a practical solution to fake roles.]
Yes there is, but i am advocating for more of it, or something like a passive buff that is applied to each role. For example people that queue as "healer" gain a buff for the run that "converts x amount of damage to group healing". it should be strong enough to carry the dungeon but still require an occasional push of a healing button. in a similar capacity, a tank role could obtain "Reduces your damage taken and generates bonus threat" for that player, regardless of their spec/class
5. Yes, these need to be fixed. No, its not going to happen as fast as we like. Have you noticed the stickied official thread on plans for improving Performance? Here you go: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487396/official-discussion-thread-for-esos-performance-improvements-plan#latest
Thanks, will look at it, but im pretty sure this is likely a code/hardware issue.
6. You are apparently new enough that you haven't figured out that Auction House threads are beating a dead horse around these parts. With a little practice, you'll figure out the UI even if its not what you are used to.[/quote]
Im not advocating for an auction house. I am advocating "guild store" text when talking to the banker and the sign above the bankers building is changed to "bank and auction house" and for "guild store" changed to "auction house". I am advocating for text and graphic user interface changes, not redesigns of the current trade system.
7. Finally, something that the housing community would love. [/quote]
And the development team also, since it will help increase their income.Edited by Amunari on April 21, 2020 9:35AM0 -
Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Creating a near-mirror image of a closed thread (with just a different title) is going to lead to the same result.
Someone who claims to be a "developer" should be smart enough to realize that, unless they are so full of their self that they can't see anything else.
Why should developers be smart? ZOS still haven't managed to fix lag and all the other bugs that have been in the game for years.
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merevie✭✭✭✭✭There are two types of guild teams in pvp.
1. You pull them apart and 70% of them are support and cannot hurt a fly. They log in and out only during raids.
2. You pull them apart and every one of them can kill three of you. Those people solo 1000s of hours and yet are invaluable in their guild teams. Be that guy/girl. Every team has 'accidents' and the ability to defend/fight matters.
Team people and solo people are not separate entities.
Edited by merevie on April 21, 2020 9:46AM1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »Have you considered a career in comedy?
Ps after yesterday's thread, you're my hero.
"Comedy" is not for us elves. We are stern, intelligent, observant, Wise, Knowledgeable, genius, crafty, skilled, beautiful, hansom, lovely, kind, benevolent and some times malevolent (here's looking at you dark elf cousins), but never, ever in 10,000 years will you find an elf that is "funny", a dwarf.. maybe, but never an elf.
You're not right. You're not even wrong. You don't even begin to understand TES lore and seem to bring into your threads some sort of notion out of D&D and WoW, which is fine, but understandably not going to earn you any praise here. Here's a tip to get you going: dwarves ARE elves in TES.Edited by daemonios on April 21, 2020 9:45AM10 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1. 1vXers aren't a problem that need to be fixed. Unless you lack situation awareness or your group sucks, in which case, the problem to be fixed is your play. This is a Learn2Play issue.
2. Again, not happening. ZOS wants casual players to at least try out ALL types of content, as we consistently see with achievements, rewards, and events. Getting players to try out a variety of content is a lot more important to ZOS than a hardcore player trying to gatekeep who should or shouldn't be allowed to participate.
4. Ugh, no thanks on the passive doing my role for me, as opposed to actually having to heal or tank. You'd make actual tanking and healing less interesting to make it easier for players to fake the roles. ZOS specifically designed PVE group content to require players to actively perform their role, including the lack of any passive threat which requires the tank to actively manage aggro and CCs while requiring the healer and DDs to be able to take hits from some of the adds. ZOS isn't going to completely redesign their intentions for group content to deal with fake roles when there's a mich simpler solution: if they are causing problems for the group, kick them.
[snip]
[edited for baiting/bashing comment]Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on April 21, 2020 4:53PM5 -
Amunari✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »1. 1vXers aren't a problem that need to be fixed. Unless you lack situation awareness or your group sucks, in which case, the problem to be fixed is your play. This is a Learn2Play issue.
and there we go with that nonsense "i super good at this game even though im a random no body" egotistical attitude. I /spit on you and players like you who think that your argument "get good kid" is of any value in an shape or form in a conversation about how to fix problems.
BTW, as a developer i also /spit on youVaranisArano wrote: »2. Again, not happening. ZOS wants casual players to at least try out ALL types of content, as we consistently see with achievements, rewards, and events. Getting players to try out a variety of content is a lot more important to ZOS than a hardcore player trying to gatekeep who should or shouldn't be allowed to participate.
Where did ZoS make you the spokesmen for their company? You do not get to decide what they do or do not want or do. Learn your role, you random try-hard wanna be nobody. No one is trying to gatekeep people from pvp, i am am however try to fix this nonsense /afk in battlegrounds. Any developer worth their goblin-meat sticks would fix this issue.VaranisArano wrote: »4. Ugh, no thanks on the passive doing my role for me, as opposed to actually having to heal or tank. You'd make actual tanking and healing less interesting to make it easier for players to fake the roles. ZOS specifically designed PVE group content to require players to actively perform their role, including the lack of any passive threat which requires the tank to actively manage aggro and CCs while requiring the healer and DDs to be able to take hits from some of the adds. ZOS isn't going to completely redesign their intentions for group content to deal with fake roles when there's a mich simpler solution: if they are causing problems for the group, kick them.
6. This is your personal reading comprehension issue, not something that actually needs to be changed.
The queue is like a wheel that has built up momentum. When it slows or stops, it is very difficult to start up again. It is more vital to the game to trample slightly on the roles identity (but providing dps the option to heal slightly less effective then a healer in non-raid based content) then to let that wheel stop.
Im not advocating we invalidate healers, I am advocating that we go in harmony with players queuing as heals or tank for the purpose of doing damage.
It would be more closer to say "we should validate more damage-tank, and damage-healing hybrid play of the game to help resolve queue related issues". Making "hybrid" game play more consistent is acceptable as it does not invalidate dedicated tanking or healing roles but it offers a "less optimized substitute" alternative.
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Amunari✭✭✭And what - there is not even enough room for character and camera - mara's kiss is a disgrace for ZOS, to even offer this as a player home is incredibly insulting.
And a major turn off to the entire experience, which could be a huge influx of money for ZoS.
All houses should start at the size of "valserinn's personal quarters" in artaeum or 1 1/2 times that size.
They should work up to manors from there and should also be as open as that room, it is important that the "feel" of the openness is not limited by walls there.
When we have a serious discussion about this we really should look at stripping walls in the houses and in place adding more adds in the "furniture shops" to allow the player to "create" their own floor plans.
If zos really wanted to dot his right they'd do a design pass on the entire thing and make a lot of the tools (like that in essential guild tools addon) and move it into the game, as well as add the ability to build the house from the ground up. a plot of land is so much more attractive if you could place the walls, etc or decide the house (with its floor plan) that is on the plot.
Edited by Amunari on April 21, 2020 10:28AM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And what - there is not even enough room for character and camera - mara's kiss is a disgrace for ZOS, to even offer this as a player home is incredibly insulting.
And a major turn off to the entire experience, which could be a huge influx of money for ZoS.
All houses should start at the size of "valserinn's personal quarters" in artaeum or 1 1/2 times that size.
They should work up to manors from there and should also be as open as that room, it is important that the "feel" of the openness is not limited by walls there.
When we have a serious discussion about this we really should look at stripping walls in the houses and in place adding more adds in the "furniture shops" to allow the player to "create" their own floor plans.
If zos really wanted to dot his right they'd do a design pass on the entire thing and make a lot of the tools (like that in essential guild tools addon) and move it into the game, as well as add the ability to build the house from the ground up. a plot of land is so much more attractive if you could place the walls, etc or decide the house (with its floor plan) that is on the plot.
Most of the other inn rooms are ok for what they are - just Mara's kiss can be used for nothing really, an insult to all from AD, who might take this as their free home without to have a look at it first.0 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And here we go again. Mind showing us prove for some of your "developer" or "designer" experience? Otherwise I will just assume you won second place in some high school programming contest and now think you are some industry veteran. At least it's in line with your suggestions.Edited by FakeFox on April 21, 2020 11:05AMEU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)6 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »1. 1vXers aren't a problem that need to be fixed. Unless you lack situation awareness or your group sucks, in which case, the problem to be fixed is your play. This is a Learn2Play issue.
and there we go with that nonsense "i super good at this game even though im a random no body" egotistical attitude. I /spit on you and players like you who think that your argument "get good kid" is of any value in an shape or form in a conversation about how to fix problems.
BTW, as a developer i also /spit on youVaranisArano wrote: »2. Again, not happening. ZOS wants casual players to at least try out ALL types of content, as we consistently see with achievements, rewards, and events. Getting players to try out a variety of content is a lot more important to ZOS than a hardcore player trying to gatekeep who should or shouldn't be allowed to participate.
Where did ZoS make you the spokesmen for their company? You do not get to decide what they do or do not want or do. Learn your role, you random try-hard wanna be nobody. No one is trying to gatekeep people from pvp, i am am however try to fix this nonsense /afk in battlegrounds. Any developer worth their goblin-meat sticks would fix this issue.VaranisArano wrote: »4. Ugh, no thanks on the passive doing my role for me, as opposed to actually having to heal or tank. You'd make actual tanking and healing less interesting to make it easier for players to fake the roles. ZOS specifically designed PVE group content to require players to actively perform their role, including the lack of any passive threat which requires the tank to actively manage aggro and CCs while requiring the healer and DDs to be able to take hits from some of the adds. ZOS isn't going to completely redesign their intentions for group content to deal with fake roles when there's a mich simpler solution: if they are causing problems for the group, kick them.
6. This is your personal reading comprehension issue, not something that actually needs to be changed.
The queue is like a wheel that has built up momentum. When it slows or stops, it is very difficult to start up again. It is more vital to the game to trample slightly on the roles identity (but providing dps the option to heal slightly less effective then a healer in non-raid based content) then to let that wheel stop.
Im not advocating we invalidate healers, I am advocating that we go in harmony with players queuing as heals or tank for the purpose of doing damage.
It would be more closer to say "we should validate more damage-tank, and damage-healing hybrid play of the game to help resolve queue related issues". Making "hybrid" game play more consistent is acceptable as it does not invalidate dedicated tanking or healing roles but it offers a "less optimized substitute" alternative.
I'm not sure its worth my time to continue to try to debate someone who thinks having situational awareness in a 1vX means being "super good". It just takes practice.
Seriously, I'm down for a debate, but drop the insults.
As for the others:
ZOS' intent: this is easily extrapolated from achievements that require ALL base game content, events that encourage players to get out of their comfort zone, rewards of different types scattered in all types of content (housing rewards in trials, style pages in BGs, etc.), and ZOS' stated desire for class reps to be experienced at PVE and PVP, and of course their desire to balance PVP and PVE together.
With that in mind, its very predictable that ZOS will encourage more casual players to join BGs, not exclude them.
Dungeon roles: this would reverse some of ZOS' original design choices such as no passive threat or balancing for the current roles. Changing that is going to have a big impact on the difficulty of group content, making it easier. ZOS generally opposes power creep - see past updates for proof. I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt they are going to invest the time and effort necessary to revamp old group content to make it fit with your design suggestions instead of continuing to follow their own. Especially not when there are easy solutions available: make your own group or kick the faker.Edited by VaranisArano on April 21, 2020 11:28AM3 -
perolord✭✭✭you can not judge the game as new player... u should know better than that... you are developer...3 -
Mancombe_Nosehair✭✭✭✭✭@VaranisArano is one of the most knowledgeable people on the forum. S/he makes he rest of us look silly by comparison, which isn't difficult based on the screeching and hyperbole that goes on here lately.
Put it this way, if more people here acted like @VaranisArano , then Zos might actually start paying attention to the forum.5 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All Inn rooms should be labeled "padded walls, and white jackets not included, will give you severe claustrophobia"
i disagree, those inn rooms, which I decorated are really nice and cozy, even the inn room in Daggerfall feels quite airy (the effect of 2 bigger paintings along it's inner wall on the right hand side) - in between and below those paintings a tee table with 2 Khajiit cushioned chairs, on the opposite side near the door is a fur bed on raised surface, space for backpack and baskets right beside it, followed by a storage chest in the corner, right beside in the middle of the small side of the room is Tythis and right beside him in the other corner a dwarven spider. This room doesn't feel claustrophobic at all - it is well planned out.1 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭For reasons uknown, ZOS really likes "group play" in PVP. This has caused problems for those who doesn't enjoy it, or have none to do it with. The state of Xbox EU now is like, everyone is running in or making a ballgroup ready. Everything else is like irrelevant now. If you don't belong to one, you can "smallscale", "solo" or "zerg" all you want - but when you run into one of these groups, it's over if you don't leave the area.
Each of these players are utterly useless by themselves, chain or nail one of them down so they are torn out of the group, and they generally lack both defense and serious offensive capabilities. They run like crazy back to the safety of the group.
This affects performance greatly as well. When these groups start their bombing procedure, nothing works anymore. Press your ability like eight times, and it might eventually go off (and no, it's not a matter of pressing once and wait either, you have to do it repeatedly). CC stacks, regardless of CC immunity from previous CC's or even immovable potions or skills. It's so broken it's pointless to even try fight them without a similar group, yet this is obviously how ZOS wants us to play the game.
The one time you can wipe a group such as this without appropriate counter measures, is when they end up in loadscreen or disconnect. Then of course you can pick them off in seconds. But otherwise no, and mind you - it's obvious that this is the way they want us to play, despite the game being incapable of dealing with all the server strain it means.0 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »1. 1vXers aren't a problem that need to be fixed. Unless you lack situation awareness or your group sucks, in which case, the problem to be fixed is your play. This is a Learn2Play issue.
and there we go with that nonsense "i super good at this game even though im a random no body" egotistical attitude. I /spit on you and players like you who think that your argument "get good kid" is of any value in an shape or form in a conversation about how to fix problems.
BTW, as a developer i also /spit on youVaranisArano wrote: »2. Again, not happening. ZOS wants casual players to at least try out ALL types of content, as we consistently see with achievements, rewards, and events. Getting players to try out a variety of content is a lot more important to ZOS than a hardcore player trying to gatekeep who should or shouldn't be allowed to participate.
Where did ZoS make you the spokesmen for their company? You do not get to decide what they do or do not want or do. Learn your role, you random try-hard wanna be nobody. No one is trying to gatekeep people from pvp, i am am however try to fix this nonsense /afk in battlegrounds. Any developer worth their goblin-meat sticks would fix this issue.VaranisArano wrote: »4. Ugh, no thanks on the passive doing my role for me, as opposed to actually having to heal or tank. You'd make actual tanking and healing less interesting to make it easier for players to fake the roles. ZOS specifically designed PVE group content to require players to actively perform their role, including the lack of any passive threat which requires the tank to actively manage aggro and CCs while requiring the healer and DDs to be able to take hits from some of the adds. ZOS isn't going to completely redesign their intentions for group content to deal with fake roles when there's a mich simpler solution: if they are causing problems for the group, kick them.
6. This is your personal reading comprehension issue, not something that actually needs to be changed.
The queue is like a wheel that has built up momentum. When it slows or stops, it is very difficult to start up again. It is more vital to the game to trample slightly on the roles identity (but providing dps the option to heal slightly less effective then a healer in non-raid based content) then to let that wheel stop.
Im not advocating we invalidate healers, I am advocating that we go in harmony with players queuing as heals or tank for the purpose of doing damage.
It would be more closer to say "we should validate more damage-tank, and damage-healing hybrid play of the game to help resolve queue related issues". Making "hybrid" game play more consistent is acceptable as it does not invalidate dedicated tanking or healing roles but it offers a "less optimized substitute" alternative.
Things you said in this reply are against the TOS of the forums.
You may wish to edit them just sayin’5 -
Amunari✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
I'm not sure its worth my time to continue to try to debate someone who thinks having situational awareness in a 1vX means being "super good". It just takes practice.
Seriously, I'm down for a debate, but drop the insults.
As for the others:
ZOS' intent: this is easily extrapolated from achievements that require ALL base game content, events that encourage players to get out of their comfort zone, rewards of different types scattered in all types of content (housing rewards in trials, style pages in BGs, etc.), and ZOS' stated desire for class reps to be experienced at PVE and PVP, and of course their desire to balance PVP and PVE together.
With that in mind, its very predictable that ZOS will encourage more casual players to join BGs, not exclude them.
Dungeon roles: this would reverse some of ZOS' original design choices such as no passive threat or balancing for the current roles. Changing that is going to have a big impact on the difficulty of group content, making it easier. ZOS generally opposes power creep - see past updates for proof. I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt they are going to invest the time and effort necessary to revamp old group content to make it fit with your design suggestions instead of continuing to follow their own. Especially not when there are easy solutions available: make your own group or kick the faker.
It is my belief as a designer that the majority of mmo-playerbase these days fall in to a specific mindset(egotistical), largely due to how we developed games since the inception of online gaming. It is clear that he majority of these players who were raised on Vertical progression systems advocate for them and want them.
When it comes to better game design there is no doubt that horizontal progression systems are far, far superior to VP based progression systems. HP Systems are highly efficient, engaged players on a more intellectual level (and are all around better for many reasons; like i dont know... not killing every game that has had hp in it), but they suffer the appeal to egotism (which is largely responsible for the improved retention rates) that is found in VP based systems.
When i see other (because i myself am rank 1 experienced gamer in both pve and pvp) rank 1 players advocate for "get good kid" as their form of argument my only reply to that is "get smart kid".
Fundamentally there are major issues with this position. If you are one of the top pvpers in ESO for example advocating for this you need to demonstrate why the game should be built for you, and not say the other 10-50 people that are better or slightly worse then you. At its core the argument is about what you, the individual wants and not what is better for the over all population of the game.
The truth is this form of thinking is a result of the evolution of the industry itself. We evolved beyond VP systems and transited into HP systems. We had to grow with this, and its good for the future of gaming we did. That being said however we still have to deal with the "scars" that came as a product of evolving games from vertical progression to horizontal progression systems.
This is where we, the designers/ developers meet people like you. You are scared children who are afraid that if we do anything to "cater" to the casual player base, to the mass majority and not the few egotistical children with no better argument then "get good" that some how we will invalidate the game you play.
This is important for us as designers to recognize. It tell us that mmo's today built on VP systems are built for the purpose of your ego, and not for the others. Your demand in short of us is to allow you to abuse the other, less experienced, less capable population of the game. That is why i say i /spit on you, and people like you who argue "get good kid".
As a designer i would advocate to all other designers out there not to listen to people like you, to out right ignore you, and i would even encourage them to nerf the crap out the things you do not want to get nerfed just for the sake of pissing you off, because once we have done that we can move on to actually improving the game and not wasting insane amounts of time trying to cater to your self-esteem issue and desire to oppress mankind in video games
This will always be the case, until a genius designer like me, ghost crawler or some other equally experienced designer comes up with a solution to this problem, but its far more likely that we will just switch to designing games in 5-10 years that are founded on purist hp based systems so that we do not "start out" with this problem from the get go (which is why i believe future of gaming is in mmo-sandbox game play). The best hope you, and the get good kids crowd has for the future is to try to negotiate part of your position, because i can promise you "if you fight for all it, you will lose all of it".
these are extremely harsh words but they are intended that way for a specific reason and its not just because i went /armChairDev on you its because you make up a very small portion of the over all player base and from a business perspective it is insanity and outright stupidity to listen to any number of you, and the people who think like you.
To be clear, Complexity, One shotting noobs because they are not as invested or capable at/in the game as you is in no way healthy for the long-term aspect of this game and i strongly advise zos to go a completely different route. Every game we come across follows this cycle of trying to cater to you, the few ego-driven players.
Yes, you/we make up a small but vocal portion of the player base, but we as developers do not need your opinion at all to make informed choices. This is largely a PR Stunt by many studio's.
The development team has another approach they can take. Do you know what that is? they can simply remove your ability to 1 shot ignorant people by nerfing the power gains. They do that and all of those issues go away. That is the move ZoS should make, the very one you do not want. Do you know why they should make it? because its easier on them then trying to repeat that above mentioned cycle for years on end just to ultimately reach that position.
Principle #372 of Amunari's Design School: Power into a game = Balance out of it. It is a fundamental issue that ZoS needs to learn, that we as developers need to be mindful of.
All of that being said Let me tell you how we can find middle ground.
First, You must release the position that "if i put more time in the game, i should get the ability to 1 shot people". This position is insane Any designer that allows this to happen is asking for problems, and will definitely, definitely get them.
It all really breaks down to understanding the cause of this situation (namely the advocating of the mentioned above) which is "complexity".
To define this for you, complexity is something like "10% Attack power for every 100 agility" vs Depth, which is something like "+10% attack power" the result of this (in this example we will use wow mechanics to understand the example clearly) is something like stacking agility to get the passive + dodge/critical strike on top of the higher attack power. So depth is understanding something at first glance, where complexity has hidden mechanics to it that ultimately bring about the problem of one shotting etc.
To me as a designer it is clear why the one shotting happens, because the game does not properly enable people to understand the mechanics at first glance. This is largely due to the lack of cool downs and more stringent resource management systems. If you had these, there would be less time to spam, and as a result more time to think.
Instead you jump into BG'S with your understand of how to break that complexity paired with the already broken power creep and then you wonder why people are advocating against such systems. If you give up the above system then the road forward is clear, the game will instantly get "balanced". It is this single mechanic that drives the problems in eso, and games like it (for example eve).
I know however you, and the pvp community of hardcore upper-ranked players will never agree upon that however, because you are egotistical in your nature. You let that emotion control you, and you not it. This is why zos should never listen to you, because your not invested in the game, you are invested in yourselves.
One last note to make
ZOS generally opposes power creep - see past updates for proof.
Either you do not know what power creep is, or you are insanity ignorant of eso. Literally everything in this game is power creep.
7 Levels to a skill, to get another 7 levels?
50 levels to get max level?
I saw someone with almost 1300 CP today, more power creep.
How many levels is there on the gear for cp?
Quality of gear giving more stats?
Skills gaining more damage on morph?
Its clear that they have done absolutely nothing but added power creep in this game.Edited by Amunari on April 21, 2020 12:43PM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You know what, Amunari, you sound just as arrogant and self-centered as those you attack in your posts. And to your first belief in your post - that anyone rank 1 would look down on others - that isn't rank 1, a real rank 1 player doesn't have to do that at all. He/she can well remember what it took to get there and instead of arrogance, they might even show an urge to teach others, if they want to be taught. As long as you are not in this state of mind, you aren't rank 1 by any means.Edited by Lysette on April 21, 2020 12:39PM5
This discussion has been closed.