So, is everyone going to ignore Battle Spirit changes which is uncalled for?

Sneaky-Snurr · April 2020

Excerpt from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/update-26-combat-preview/p1

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Greetings Gang!

(...)

Lastly, in this update we are making some small adjustments to Critical Resistance and Healing affecting PvP specifically. Over the years, we’ve seen healing become quite volatile in PvP with the ability to negate a high amount of damage in just 1 ability cast for many players at once. This isn’t just 1 ability that causes this type of health bar swinging, so we are making adjustments to Battlespirit which now reduces healing taken by 60% instead of 50%.

Gearing up for PvP isn’t a simple task because of the need for Critical Resistance. The other issue regarding itemization in PvP is that it’s very limiting due to the need for building Critical Resistance. This means other popular traits and builds aren’t as viable in PvP unless you’re a glass cannon or top-end player. To bring more viable stat and set combinations into PvP play, we are now granting a baseline Critical Resistance. In conjunction with that change, we are making several adjustments to item sets which grant Critical Resistance. We also are making changes to the Impenetrable trait by reducing the value.

We hope these updates enhance your day to day adventures in ESO, and we’ll see you in Tamriel! We look forward to your feedback regarding the changes above, as well as item sets and your general playtesting experience when Update 26 hits PTS next week!

I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses (simple SWOT analysis anyone?)? Do you realise that it's a 20% HEALING NERF in PvP compared to what we have now? I play in no-CP and the heals are already not too 'volatile' to start with. If you're arguing about ball groups, then large heals are to be expected and players must do well to counter groups with organised play.

Let's suppose if these changes to Battle Spirit go into Live. Do you think it's going to solve the 'volatility' of heals (I call BS for @ZOS_BrianWheeler's reasoning) players have ie. well-geared players (WG) vs. poorly-geared players (PG)? Answer is a definite NO. What it will do is nerf everyone's heals to a large degree (20% nerf!) till those PG players can't even cope to go around Cyro/BGs with at least a fighting chance to survive.

Just please @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert, do not go through with the Battle Spirit changes, please reconsider. It will not serve the whole PvP community well especially new and PG PvP-centric players. Feeling the brunt of the nerf, I'm sure the uninstall button/New World MMO is going to sound more appealing to them. Do not mess this up, ZOS.

Justification for suggestion number 3:

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

A battle spirit that reduced armor values would've fixed a lot of this tank meta.

A clear, definable decision should be made to survive damage or deal damage.

I'm fed up with it being okay that a pvp tank can absorb twice as much damage as a dps, have more regen, health and resources but still do 90% of the damage. That's beyond broken.

So what happens?

Everyone gravitates towards these builds because meta.

Either increase damage on squishy builds or reduce armor/damage on tanky ones

@RedFireDisco
Actually, flat number armour values in Phys and Spell Resistance are barely the problem in this whole issue. It can easily be countered with penetration debuffs whose values are high enough to negate a large part of a tank's flat armour number.

Now here's where I want everyone's attention: If you find a tank or damage dealer being too tanky, the problem really lies in the inherent %-based buffs (and also debuffs) from Major & Minor Protection in which the former gives a humongous 30% damage reduction with little to no counter to. Minor gives 8% damage reduction.
Add to the problem with debuffs like Minor Maim which reduces damage dealt by enemies by 15% plus lots of cross healing received from allies.
Since nerfs are the name of the game to ZOS and there are little to no counters in the game to negate these huge buffs/debuffs, then I strongly urge ZOS to at the very least consider one of or a few of my suggestion(s).

If you're arguing that those tanky players are running solo, then just remove the cross healing received from the equation and the point still stands; %-based dmg mitigation is currently too strong with little to no counter available to render its usefulness.
Flat armour values are the least of the problem and the counters are readily available in abundance.

Potential alternatives to the healing nerfs:
Through Battle Spirit;
1.0 Limit the number of cross heals received from players
1.1 Reduce the amount of heals by x% a player can receive from 'foreign' heal sources (ie. anything other than self-initiated heals) as others have mentioned in this thread.
Maybe a limit to 1.0 & 1.1 ie. how many can be stacked on a player too. That will nerf zergs and ball groups effectively since there's only so much heals a player can receive.

2. CP adjustments;
Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.

3. %-based damage mitigation buff adjustments;
Reduce the %-based buffs ie. Major and Minor Protection by half in PvP through Battle Spirit (this includes Major/Minor Maim as well). Sets that give 5-10% damage reduction from players nerfed by half through Battle Spirit too.

Here's a link for a more furnished and condensed version of the thread, just in case you guys want to have a look (it's in the PTS section of the forum):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524745/zos-please-revert-the-changes-to-battle-spirit-alternatives-provided-therein/p1

Berek_Bloodfang · April 2020

I'm more surprised that "Hardened Ward" and similar shields weren't NERF'd some way or some how, battlegrounds is just filled with Sorcerers spamming "Hardened Ward" builds... Super boring meta to play in if you're not a Sorcerer also spamming "Hardened Ward".

Vicinia · April 2020

This is going to hurt No-CP tremendously. It will not address ball groups/zerging. It hurts certain classes more than others. It hurts small scale and solo players. Blanket nerfs rarely address the issues they're meant to solve. This isn't a solution to the "heal and tank" meta. In fact it may exacerbate that issue. Depending on how the crit resistance changes go, people may become tankier. People will try to build tankier as a result.

Here's another L for the devs.

Tommy_The_Gun · April 2020

Tbh. I think it is better if the nerf healing through battle spirit. That way PvE is untouched. It is lesser evil.

Daffen · April 2020

Yes because beeing able to face-tank and heal through pressure from other players is not skilled gameplay. Talking for cp pvp.

Vicinia wrote: »

Depending on how the crit resistance changes go, people may become tankier. People will try to build tankier as a result.

Here's another L for the devs.

Agree with this statement, i have allready decided to change out one of my sets that is going to get nerfed by these changes resulting in me becoming tankier.

Sneaky-Snurr · April 2020

Vicinia wrote: »

This is going to hurt No-CP tremendously. It will not address ball groups/zerging. It hurts certain classes more than others. It hurts small scale and solo players. Blanket nerfs rarely address the issues they're meant to solve. This isn't a solution to the "heal and tank" meta. In fact it may exacerbate that issue. Depending on how the crit resistance changes go, people may become tankier. People will try to build tankier as a result.

Here's another L for the devs.

@Vicinia
Well said.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. I think it is better if the nerf healing through battle spirit. That way PvE is untouched. It is lesser evil.

@Tommy_The_Gun
How about no nerfs to heal in PvP and PvE. My point is, if ZOS is going to address the issue, then any nerf is not the way to go. Buffs/additions/positive-adjustments to the number of utility sets/skills is a good place to start with.
One that can give options to play a certain rotation that synergise well with the changes/buffs.

Or maybe ZOS could formulate a PvP-targeted penalty for players stacking heals on each other much like how Battle Spirit adjusts only the PvP aspect of the game/mechanics, thereby leaving PvE unscathed.

Weesacs · April 2020

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm more surprised that "Hardened Ward" and similar shields weren't NERF'd some way or some how, battlegrounds is just filled with Sorcerers spamming "Hardened Ward" builds... Super boring meta to play in if you're not a Sorcerer also spamming "Hardened Ward".

This. Healing and impen nerfed but shields stay the same? Im interested in seeing the official notes.

silky_soft · April 2020

It's a shield buff for all his mag sorc mates aha.

So are Shields finally getting crits or defile?

Lapin_Logic · April 2020

Fix = Battle spirit, cap the number of sourced of healing received from any source to 2 per player, prioritising the highest source. = You + your pocket healer not the whole clown show rushing unstopping (insert 5 second load screen of Cyrodiil) through your 6 man group location leaving you just a meat smear on a blue screen.

Simple, no more zergs of 50 healing orbs with resto ults and earthgore ticking every second, heals don't need to be weaker, if a great player can land his combo on you then even a 9000 spell damage powered Breath of life won't save you from his stun/one second combo.

The only problem that needs Addressing is large group mindless heal spam that can keep an afk dude alive without him trying, not "All Healing", Besides, if you make healing weaker it just makes everyone else stay close to a healer so the clown party gets even bigger cos the damage just went UP seeing as Impenetrable is now useless, it will be heavy Divines all the way.

ArchMikem · April 2020

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses (simple SWOT analysis anyone?)

I can't believe I get to ask this more than once on this forum, but is this Starcraft? Why did Actions Per Minute even become a saying for this game anyway.

I've had to fight too many mega healing players to not be a little happy for a heal nerf, and since I'm one of those glass cannons that loses the fight after three hits anyway, the nerf won't affect me much. You can't call the change to Impen a nerf since they're going to give everyone a base Crit Resist buff to compensate, which will be nice for a lot of players who don't want to mess with their traits.

Hanokihs · April 2020

Who needs healing anyway, when basically everyone in PvP is either a tank or ganker?

My question is, why couldn't they figure out how to tweak Battle Spirit before they killed all the skills and sets that PvE players routinely used/relied on?

Iskiab · April 2020

Ah I missed this update. Not a bad change, just have to make some tweaks to shields.

YandereGirlfriend · April 2020

It appears as though those who were kvetching about Impenetrable being "overpowered" about a month ago got their wish granted to them, as here we are with the corresponding nerf.

Setting a baseline amount of Critical Resistance isn't an awful thing in and of itself but this unquenchable thirst for nerfs and power reduction is beyond fatiguing.

A more interesting solution to healing would have been making Impenetrable also reduce your Critical Healing taken and also have your Armor value reduce your regular healing taken.

That way, Impenetrable would be worse in some situations (e.g. on a Heavy Armor player) and better in others (e.g. Light/Medium Armor) without changing the actual utility of the trait. It would be the "kiss-curse" that ZOS seems to be desiring more of and it would help reduce the appeal of the Heavy Armor DPS meta in PvP.

Lapin_Logic · April 2020

Weesacs wrote: »

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm more surprised that "Hardened Ward" and similar shields weren't NERF'd some way or some how, battlegrounds is just filled with Sorcerers spamming "Hardened Ward" builds... Super boring meta to play in if you're not a Sorcerer also spamming "Hardened Ward".

This. Healing and impen nerfed but shields stay the same? Im interested in seeing the official notes.

Shields are 'Conjoured/Temporary health' they get crit currently anyway that's why they are glass cannons in low resist Light armor divines, the counter to them is crit high and hard, raw WD is great for taking a medium meat puppet to 35% to hit with a executioner, it's the rules of the game, not all builds are great VS everything and every build has it's Achilles heel, it's just unfortunate that most people use cookie cutter big armor boy with 2h swinging for a home run.

Light has shields, Med has higher resist and Dodge rolls, Heavy has higher resist, higher health and can block.

Also, if Impen is getting nerfed you will probably run more Divines so your heals will probably be the same and your damage will go up.

Gilvoth · April 2020

i love the changes and hope they stay.
and i am absolutely sure i am not alone in that thinking.
Healing and defenses are WAY too Strong right now, and the changes @ZOS_BrianWheeler is suggesting, sounds and looks like a Right step in that direction.

Vlad9425 · April 2020

Final nail in the coffin for solo play but obviously the big zergs which have like 15 healers will hardly notice this nerf making it completely pointless.

OlumoGarbag · April 2020

Vicinia wrote: »

This is going to hurt No-CP tremendously.

Couldnt agree more. The team that gets a healer will almost always win already in bgs, since healing is alot lower already then last patches, if it gets lowered even more battlegrounds will be only about spawning, getting kills, slowly dying repeat.
Let alone playing open world on a non pet sorc.

WhyMustItBe · April 2020

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

...sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM...

Part of the reason for that may be performance. ZOS has struggled to increase performance in PVP for years. If part of the reason is high Attack-Per-Minute ratios bogging down server processing overhead during combat, then discouraging playstyle that relies on button mashing to the extreme would possibly improve the situation.

However, to avoid this seeming like a punishment of skilled players, who may or may not bring significant revenue to the game through Twitch and other venues, they could do it on a timed lockout basis.

For example:

Based on kill to death ratio (with some abstraction code for scenarios where conflict ends without a death, etc.), ZOS could gradually scale up Battle Spirit on players achieving a high success rate in a way that noticeably impacted SUSTAIN specifically.

Can't sustain, can't mash.

This could scale up to an extreme degree to where button mashing balls would have bursts of effectiveness followed by 5-10 minutes of virtual noobiness as their sustain nerfs their offensive capabilities to the ground.

I feel this would be a fair compromise and far preferable to blanket reductions which hurt all demographics including those that aren't really contributing significantly to real problems.

EDIT: It also carries a certain RP value as armies realistically don't just ball up and conquer the world in one shot, they surge, then opposition forces rally and they eventually fall back to regroup.

If characters in-game never see diminishing returns in power they become like an army that never gets tired.

olsborg · April 2020

Blanket nerf to every class' heals is the wrong way to do it. Stamsorc and stamblade have the worst self-healing in the game, easily, they do not need to get their heals nerfed. The other classes are already overhealing as it is on live and won't rly feel this nerf too hard, but stamblade and stamsorc will definitely feel it.

ayu_fever · April 2020

as long as any pvp heal changes are tied to battle spirit, it wont have an effect on my pve experience, especially since i have been a healer main for years.
this isnt about pvp vs pve, but the population of heavily sided on the pve side so the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

MaxJrFTW · April 2020

Uncalled for? What game are you playing? Healing is overtuned, people aren't dying, they just hold block and heal. This is a good change.

Iskiab · April 2020

What I like about this change is it might mean there’s no need to transmute a pvp set. A mag class could wear mother’s sorrow and NMA and do okay.. maybe. Devil’s in the details.

Taleof2Cities · April 2020

It’s too early to say the sky is falling.

Let’s see what the numbers are on PTS, folks.

There is going to be some character improvement resulting from the new baseline for Crit Resist ... resulting in more options (especially in CP PvP).

Bradyfjord · April 2020

As I think about battle spirit, I wonder. If calculations per action are what is stalling the servers, then is it possible that it is battle spirit/battle leveling contributing to the performance issues we have been experiencing for the past year or so?

Perhaps the combat team is working towards a combat system that doesn't need battle spirit/battle leveling? Or if not removing it, then replacing it with a more elegant solution 'under the hood'?

Ratzkifal · April 2020

I think the worst part here is that they are, once again, doing everything at once. They are nerfing impen and crit resist sources in the same patch while adding a base crit resist. This alone will change the PvP meta a lot, so could they maybe chill and not nerf healing as well? Even if it's needed, just wait until things have been tested first.

But we all know why they are nerfing healing now too. Because they only bother to update balance 4 times a year, that's why. For comparison, as bad as Riot Games may be with balancing League of Legends, at least they keep updating their game almost once every two weeks, so when things are broken you don't have to wait THREE MONTHS UNTIL THINGS GET BETTER. It's also a lot easier to handle updates if you are taking baby steps and only change little at a time...

nk125x · April 2020

The real problem is cross heals - Limit everyone to only one rapid regen on them at any time and aoe heals to the group. This will cut the server load and never die cross heal groups.

VaranisArano · April 2020

I doubt it has anything to do with balancing ball groups. They'll be fine. They can tell their group members "hey, we need another healer or three" and they won't be hurting.

Solo players and disorganized groups, on the other hand, can't compensate so easily.

zvavi · April 2020

I mean... I find it comical that they are trying to balance a non working game mode. I mean, what are they basing the ability balance on, on if the ability can fire or not?

xinvidiousx · April 2020

paul.olesonb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm more surprised that "Hardened Ward" and similar shields weren't NERF'd some way or some how, battlegrounds is just filled with Sorcerers spamming "Hardened Ward" builds... Super boring meta to play in if you're not a Sorcerer also spamming "Hardened Ward".

i mean if you dont have any substantial heal (non pet build) what else they supposed to use? leave the sorcs alone they been nerfed enough, dont need to be in NB status

Bradyfjord · April 2020

My opinion on balance in ESO is that until performance is restored to a playable level there is no meaningful balance. How many people build for tankyness + heals so they have a little cushion for those nasty lag spikes? I'd love to fully utilize the action combat aspects of this game, but it's hard when a hit registers before you see it.

Jeremy · April 2020

It doesn't surprise me they are nerfing healing. The developers of this game have always been hostile to the concept of players being able to actually counter damage with healing. So every time healing gets strong enough to where it can actually keep players alive here comes the nerf stick because DPS has to be > everything else.

This has a lot more to do with CP than anything. Because these invincible tank/healer "metas" I keep hearing people go on about simply do not exist in none CP PvP. And the reason so many players stack heals and armor is because it's one of the few ways you can actually stay alive, especially during nasty burst damage or a lag spike. Otherwise it's just a rat race to see who lands their burst of doom first which doesn't make for very interesting or fun combat. Either you or the other guy just go splat. Wow, so fun.

Anyway, to those players on this forum who think healing is OP on this game, you should try playing some other MMORPGs out there as a healer. You would feel like a God. Healing has been in a better place on this game since the regeneration changes, but it is still miles below other games out there.