Battle Spirit changes, and how they effect CP vs no-CP. A bad precedent.

NeillMcAttack · April 2020

So, I'm a long time advocate of how painful it is to play in CP PvP compared to no-CP, and I'm fairly sure that I know the effect this will have, maybe I'm wrong, but I would really like to hear from others how they feel about this.... tweak.

I use tweak because that is all it will be in CP PvP, it will make little difference in the grand scheme of things (May as well remove the blessed CP from PvP, which I guess is a start). In CP PvP the only way to kill people (at least seasoned players) is to out number them and burst them down, or completely overwhelm them, most of the time. 20% less healing here is very little considering. You already have seasoned players that way overheal because it's so difficult not to just be design. Maybe the nerf to Impen will help a bit here, but until we know the values we can't really comment on this change, so that's for another time.

Now, what about no-CP? No-CP players will know that overhealing is only a real problem on set-ups specifically built for it, or in groups with even just a few sources of off healing present. In no-CP any mistake is quite costly, you rarely get time to just sit back on that back bar until you are completely recovered, and re-start finding your burst window, all the while people are beating down on you, again, unless completely set-up for it.

What I am trying to say is that these are two completely different environments and blanket changes like this set a bad precedent.

What I would ask ZOS to do is address off healing and self healing differently. But also adjust the numbers differently in CP compared to no-CP.

Edited after @Major_Lag lag pointed out it's 20% effective healing from all sources. Not 10%.

Major_Lag · April 2020

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

10% less healing

It's not 10%.

Old healing was 100% - 50% = 50%.
New healing will be 100% - 60% = 40%

40% / 50% = 0.8 = 80%, ergo a 20% nerf.

Still it won't even put a dent in ballgroups, it will only hurt solos and smallscale.

casparian · April 2020

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

In CP PvP the only way to kill people (at least seasoned players) is to out number them and burst them down

Well that's not true at all. You can also kill a seasoned player by being a seasoned player yourself, and having the skill, build, and experience to beat them. If you aren't on their level, why should you be able to kill them without outnumbering them?

olsborg · April 2020

A blanket nerf like that will only screw over the classes with already mediocre or bad healing, like stamblades and stamsorcs. A 10% nerf to a templar or dks healing will hardly be noticeable, but for say a stamblade it will be very, very noticecable. Bad way to do it.

NeillMcAttack · April 2020

casparian wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

In CP PvP the only way to kill people (at least seasoned players) is to out number them and burst them down

Well that's not true at all. You can also kill a seasoned player by being a seasoned player yourself, and having the skill, build, and experience to beat them. If you aren't on their level, why should you be able to kill them without outnumbering them?

Sure, once every month when dueling, or when you have a fight in Cyro that doesn't go on for 10 mins before one of you is outnumbered.

Sneaky-Snurr · April 2020

I can't brain ZOS's logic on the blanket nerf. If they feel it's too 'volatile', then it will affect those who currently have weak heals to start with. It's a ridiculous and illogical nerf and like OP said, doesn't address the root of the problem. This is going to make no-CP a b**** to play in.

The issue is, those players who complained need to take some time (smaaall amount of time) to put in some thoughts on how to improve their healing and playstyle. Opponents healing for too much? Have a major defile/heal interruption rotation ready. Own heals are weak? Slot in some healing buffs etc. Or just focus on resistance more so your heals can cover the reduced damage from having ample resistances.

Seriously, this is a (I'm not proud of saying this) a L2P issue. Healing is fine as it is in Cyro, no tweaking or meddling is required. This is also going to affect BG even more.

NeillMcAttack · April 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

10% less healing

It's not 10%.

Old healing was 100% - 50% = 50%.
New healing will be 100% - 60% = 40%

40% / 50% = 0.8 = 80%, ergo a 20% nerf.

Still it won't even put a dent in ballgroups, it will only hurt solos and smallscale.

You are absolutely right. I edited the OP.

MusCanus · April 2020

Yes, another brightest idea by the combat team. Instead of giving a reliable source of Major Defile to everyone so it can be used strategically, 20% reduction to all healing all the time. You're certainly not overhealing vs a necro, do you?

The whole battle spirit thing is a huge ugly crutch imo, always has been.
50% less damage, for example. All would remain the same balance wise if the base damage would be reduced by half and hp of all the pve enemies be shaved by half as well. Or is there something I don't get?

EDIT: Healing reduction is also an indirect buff to damage shields as they'll become more effective compared to burst healing. Of all the classes only 2 don't have a shield ability. One is necro, who has the strongest mitigation already. Can you name another one, lol?

Taleof2Cities · April 2020

@NeillMcAttack, I think we’ll need to see actual PTS numbers on how the Battle Spirit nerf interacts with the decreased need for the impen trait on gear ... before you declare the sky is falling.

PTS introduces a baseline crit resist now for all players. If players are able to replace impen gear with other traits, it might offset much of the loss or even be a wash.

Especially PvP healers ... who stand to improve their healing output by dropping 2-3-4 pieces of impen for the divines trait or another trait.

GRXRG · April 2020

There are stamdens and stamcros in no-cp who can hold 2 or 3 people on them without even being healers or tanks. It's not a cp, no-cp problem, but a class specific problem.
I find max cp pvp way more balanced than no-cp.
Classes like stamsorc or stamblade in a no-cp scenario against a stamden or stamcro of same skill level will ALWAYS lose. In cp the class difference can be shortened due to a good cp tree and build "combo".

Nerfing healing will make stamblade and stamsorc, the classes with the worse healing even worse and stamden stamcro stamplar and stamdk still able to so their things without caring.

If they leave stamcro major defile untouched i have no more hope.

OlumoGarbag · April 2020

I dont get why they cant fix the real problem, CP.
In CP almost any duell ends in a stalemate if non of both makes any big mistakes, bc every good player is overhealing. Good luck trying to tank even 1 person wearing 3 offensive light/medium sets in non-cp. I feel like the best way would be something in between. Lower the amount of CP you can set in pvp to 500ish or rework how battlespirit effects cp, by halfing every cp passive while in a pvp zone.

OlumoGarbag · April 2020

GRXRG wrote: »

There are stamdens and stamcros in no-cp who can hold 2 or 3 people on them without even being healers or tanks. It's not a cp, no-cp problem, but a class specific problem.
I find max cp pvp way more balanced than no-cp.
Classes like stamsorc or stamblade in a no-cp scenario against a stamden or stamcro of same skill level will ALWAYS lose. In cp the class difference can be shortened due to a good cp tree and build "combo".

Nerfing healing will make stamblade and stamsorc, the classes with the worse healing even worse and stamden stamcro stamplar and stamdk still able to so their things without caring.

If they leave stamcro major defile untouched i have no more hope.

Stamsorc and stamblade are both mobile classes, stamden and stamcro are not. And once they finally nerf blackrose dualwield, stamsorc and nb will have advantage of speed/disengage back. If you duell a stamden/stamcro on a mobile class without using your mobility, it serms fair that the less mobile class wins, even tho they are way to strong. Both need a nerf, but should still be better in close combat without kiting

Solariken · April 2020

Healing needed adjustment, but I would have done it differently - preferably reducing healing received from allies. Self-healing is in a pretty decent spot currently in noCP.

Major_Lag · April 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Especially PvP healers ... who stand to improve their healing output by dropping 2-3-4 pieces of impen for the divines trait or another trait.

Yes, you raise an interesting point.

Currently it's not viable to run anything other than impen on a healer - unless you are healing a 24 man zerg maybe, with plenty of meatshields to LoS behind.
But with a baseline crit resist and the group buff from the Transmutation set (and the Resistant CP in CP PvP), it should be quite viable to drop Impen - and run some or even all Divines or Divines/Infused, offsetting the loss of healing to a good degree.

Once again, this seems to prove that these changes won't affect the root of the problem (large groups with insane overhealing) much (if at all), while directly nerfing solo/smallscale play. Bah.

MusCanus · April 2020

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Stamsorc and stamblade are both mobile classes, stamden and stamcro are not. And once they finally nerf blackrose dualwield, stamsorc and nb will have advantage of speed/disengage back. If you duell a stamden/stamcro on a mobile class without using your mobility, it serms fair that the less mobile class wins, even tho they are way to strong. Both need a nerf, but should still be better in close combat without kiting

Why people keep calling stamblade a mobile class ffs? It has zero abilities or passives that increase mobility. The fact that it has to rely on being mobile, because it doesn't have other means to defend, doesn't make it better at it. Stamden and stamcro can be just as mobile, they just don't have to.

Crixus8000 · April 2020

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Stamsorc and stamblade are both mobile classes, stamden and stamcro are not. And once they finally nerf blackrose dualwield, stamsorc and nb will have advantage of speed/disengage back.

Stamsorc arguably get's the most value from brp dw. And I don't think I have ever seen a stamden or stamcro use it, since they seem to prefer snb backbar usually. So I don't see it as an advantage at all.

OlumoGarbag · April 2020

MusCanus wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Stamsorc and stamblade are both mobile classes, stamden and stamcro are not. And once they finally nerf blackrose dualwield, stamsorc and nb will have advantage of speed/disengage back. If you duell a stamden/stamcro on a mobile class without using your mobility, it serms fair that the less mobile class wins, even tho they are way to strong. Both need a nerf, but should still be better in close combat without kiting

Why people keep calling stamblade a mobile class ffs? It has zero abilities or passives that increase mobility. The fact that it has to rely on being mobile, because it doesn't have other means to defend, doesn't make it better at it. Stamden and stamcro can be just as mobile, they just don't have to.

Ummmmmm shadow image + cloak?!?
I know nb is at a very bad spot atm, but in last patches it was one of easiest classes to kite on,

OlumoGarbag · April 2020

Crixus8000 wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Stamsorc and stamblade are both mobile classes, stamden and stamcro are not. And once they finally nerf blackrose dualwield, stamsorc and nb will have advantage of speed/disengage back.

Stamsorc arguably get's the most value from brp dw. And I don't think I have ever seen a stamden or stamcro use it, since they seem to prefer snb backbar usually. So I don't see it as an advantage at all.

Im talking of a non-cp perspective, no clue about cp. If brp dw is nerfed stamsorcs can try to burst their target and if they get under pressure they use streak. Necro/stamdens in non cp use brp dw as getaway tool since you cant permablock in noncp if your not running a full block build. So yeah without brp less mobile classes lose a carry button in non cp

MusCanus · April 2020

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

MusCanus wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Stamsorc and stamblade are both mobile classes, stamden and stamcro are not. And once they finally nerf blackrose dualwield, stamsorc and nb will have advantage of speed/disengage back. If you duell a stamden/stamcro on a mobile class without using your mobility, it serms fair that the less mobile class wins, even tho they are way to strong. Both need a nerf, but should still be better in close combat without kiting

Why people keep calling stamblade a mobile class ffs? It has zero abilities or passives that increase mobility. The fact that it has to rely on being mobile, because it doesn't have other means to defend, doesn't make it better at it. Stamden and stamcro can be just as mobile, they just don't have to.

Ummmmmm shadow image + cloak?!?
I know nb is at a very bad spot atm, but in last patches it was one of easiest classes to kite on,

Shadow image + cloak on a stamblade isn't an in-combat mobility but an escape or a complete reset attempt. One-time attempt if you don't put considerable amounts into mag pool or mag regen. It's not like you can go in and out of range like on stamsorc.

Crixus8000 · April 2020

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Im talking of a non-cp perspective, no clue about cp. If brp dw is nerfed stamsorcs can try to burst their target and if they get under pressure they use streak. Necro/stamdens in non cp use brp dw as getaway tool since you cant permablock in noncp if your not running a full block build. So yeah without brp less mobile classes lose a carry button in non cp

Same, I only play no cp and I can't even remember the last time I met a stamden or stamcro with brp, all the ones I see use snb. Yet I see a lot of stamsorcs using it, since they need the survivability far more, so once it's nerfed it will just make stamsorc have an even harder time, while not solving the issue of tanks at all.

Lord_Eomer · April 2020

Best changes for healing in PVP,

Suppose not to have endless battles.

OlumoGarbag · April 2020

Crixus8000 wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Im talking of a non-cp perspective, no clue about cp. If brp dw is nerfed stamsorcs can try to burst their target and if they get under pressure they use streak. Necro/stamdens in non cp use brp dw as getaway tool since you cant permablock in noncp if your not running a full block build. So yeah without brp less mobile classes lose a carry button in non cp

Same, I only play no cp and I can't even remember the last time I met a stamden or stamcro with brp, all the ones I see use snb. Yet I see a lot of stamsorcs using it, since they need the survivability far more, so once it's nerfed it will just make stamsorc have an even harder time, while not solving the issue of tanks at all.

I played my stamsorc alot in the last weeks, with brp as well. Stamsorc needs another source of survival tho, the class passives need a rework. What got me killed in 90% of fights was streak bug.

Crixus8000 · April 2020

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

I played my stamsorc alot in the last weeks, with brp as well. Stamsorc needs another source of survival tho, the class passives need a rework. What got me killed in 90% of fights was streak bug.

Yeah true. Streak has a few bugs tbh, gets me killed a lot. I think the class mainly needs some extra dmg like a delayed burst skill though. It would help a lot and solve many issues

Commancho · April 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

Still it won't even put a dent in ballgroups, it will only hurt solos and smallscale.

Ballgroups are not a problem, immortal solo builds are frustrating. Any organised team should stay in advantage to unorganised team/player. This it how it works in real life, this is how it works in video games. Ballgroups or not, any sort of team-play should be rewarded. Personally I don't participate in ballgroups, but I love a challange they provide.

What PVP in this game needs are new PVP oriented debuffs. You can get rid off immortal builds, by cutting their healing or rescource gain with a stronger and lasting longer single target debuffs which adequate cooldowns. They will be also effective when used agains organised groups, IF used tactically (a.ka. "fishing").

Crixus8000 · April 2020

Commancho wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Still it won't even put a dent in ballgroups, it will only hurt solos and smallscale.

Ballgroups are not a problem, immortal solo builds are frustrating. Any organised team should stay in advantage to unorganised team/player. This it how it works in real life, this is how it works in video games. Ballgroups or not, any sort of team-play should be rewarded. Personally I don't participate in ballgroups, but I love a challange they provide.

Team play is rewarded, No one is immortal if they have 2+ good players hitting them unless they are actually on a full tank build but then who cares.

A player who has practiced a lot and learned how to make a good build should not automatically lose to far less experienced players just because they are in a group. If you truly use team work and are good at the game then no build would be immortal to you.

Major_Lag · April 2020

Commancho wrote: »

Ballgroups are not a problem (...)
What PVP in this game needs are new PVP oriented debuffs. (...) They will be also effective when used agains organised groups, IF used tactically (a.ka. "fishing").

LMFAO ROFL LOL

You obviously have not even the slightest clue about how ballgroups operate...
@L2Pissue, what's your take on this?

Ok, so here's "Ballgroup 101": they have dedicated purge spammers whose main job is to prevent any CCs, debuffs and DoTs from sticking to anyone for more than 1 second.

You will NEVER be able to get anything to stick unless you negate+timestop them first - which requires decent teamplay coordination already, and at that point you might as well ultidump and bomb them without wasting time trying to debuff/DoT them up.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Team play is rewarded, No one is immortal if they have 2+ good players hitting them unless they are actually on a full tank build but then who cares.

Or unless they are in a 12-24 man group spamming crossheals and purges, which works even better and requires far less skill.

Commancho · April 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Ballgroups are not a problem (...)
What PVP in this game needs are new PVP oriented debuffs. (...) They will be also effective when used agains organised groups, IF used tactically (a.ka. "fishing").

LMFAO ROFL LOL

You obviously have not even the slightest clue about how ballgroups operate...
@L2Pissue, what's your take on this?

Ok, so here's "Ballgroup 101": they have dedicated purge spammers whose main job is to prevent any CCs, debuffs and DoTs from sticking to anyone for more than 1 second.

You will NEVER be able to get anything to stick unless you negate+timestop them first - which requires decent teamplay coordination already, and at that point you might as well ultidump and bomb them without wasting time trying to debuff/DoT them up.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Team play is rewarded, No one is immortal if they have 2+ good players hitting them unless they are actually on a full tank build but then who cares.

Or unless they are in a 12-24 man group spamming crossheals and purges, which works even better and requires far less skill.

You can use a multiple tools to fish your target from a group. I do it on a daily basis.
Orrrr you can create a ball group by yourself if thats too hard xD

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Team play is rewarded, No one is immortal if they have 2+ good players hitting them unless they are actually on a full tank build but then who cares.

I care, it's flag based PVP. You can ignore one player, but when it's more of them?... There is no grace in PVP in ESO. Everyone is either supertank, tank-DD or tank-healer. Longest battle I have participated lasted for two hours in NO-CP (around ~150 players).

Major_Lag · April 2020

Commancho wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Ballgroups are not a problem (...)
What PVP in this game needs are new PVP oriented debuffs. (...) They will be also effective when used agains organised groups, IF used tactically (a.ka. "fishing").

LMFAO ROFL LOL

You obviously have not even the slightest clue about how ballgroups operate...
@L2Pissue, what's your take on this?

Ok, so here's "Ballgroup 101": they have dedicated purge spammers whose main job is to prevent any CCs, debuffs and DoTs from sticking to anyone for more than 1 second.

You will NEVER be able to get anything to stick unless you negate+timestop them first - which requires decent teamplay coordination already, and at that point you might as well ultidump and bomb them without wasting time trying to debuff/DoT them up.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Team play is rewarded, No one is immortal if they have 2+ good players hitting them unless they are actually on a full tank build but then who cares.

Or unless they are in a 12-24 man group spamming crossheals and purges, which works even better and requires far less skill.

You can use a multiple tools to fish your target from a group. I do it on a daily basis.
Orrrr you can create a ball group by yourself if thats too hard xD

"Fishing" only works on bad groups.
Against the actually good ones, you will never be able to make it work - their support is on point, they have built-in redundancy to prevent the group from wiping from losing a single purger, and they will go back for any fallen group members ASAP (or disengage and set up a camp, if the former is not a viable option).

Specifically, the best groups spread out their purging capabilities over multiple members - some of whom purge more or less full-time, whereas the others only purge in emergencies.

Purge is the hard carry tool that all ballgroups heavily crutch on... if you could remove that from the game, the ballgroups would start wiping a lot more often.
While I really like the teamplay-oriented idea behind Purge as an ability, it's currently far too powerful for what it allows in large groups.

I speak from first-hand experience BTW. I've been on both sides of the fence.
While it was an interesting learning experience, and certainly very insightful in terms of "understanding your enemy", ultimately that's not the kind of gameplay I find particularly engaging.

Commancho · April 2020

So you want me to complain about best ball groups made of great players using a voice communication, tactics etc.? Because I don't understand what is your point here? It takes a long time to organise a PVP group like that and lazy people just come on these forums and complain "ZOS, I can't kill this, I can't kill that!". I play Cyrodiil almost every evening since couple of years so I know much it takes to organise things likethat.

Besides everything has advantages and disadvantages. Ballgroups are slow and it's easy to outnumber and sourround them to break their formation with things like chains, javelins etc. Most of them are predictable and if you are in big guild you can just call for help for another group of yours. I have seen many ball groups being wiped like that by loose formations.

Major_Lag · April 2020

Commancho wrote: »

So you want me to complain about best ball groups made of great players using a voice communication, tactics etc.? Because I don't understand what is your point here?

Same issue as it was before with BG premades vs PUGs - it destroys whatever remains of "fun" gameplay for the PUGs and just turns the battlefield into an AP farm.

For the few weeks that I did run with a very good group, we only wiped on average about once per 1-2 hours (almost always purely due to lag = abilities not firing) and left mountains of corpses in our wake.

A solid, well coordinated (voicechat) group will ALWAYS be stronger than a random group of the same size.
This is true even in games which have zero group support abilities!

ESO purge is just ridiculously OP in what it does.
Sure, it is quite strong when used strategically in small groups. Yet it's far stronger when mindlessly spammed in large groups, which is the exact opposite of skilled play.

Commancho wrote: »

Ballgroups are slow

LOL

Sure, maybe the bad ones.
The group I was in was quite hard to keep up with, even with constant Major Expedition uptime and the occasional Streak.

Commancho wrote: »

I have seen many ball groups being wiped like that by loose formations.

Me too, but only ever the bad ones.

Luckylancer · April 2020

casparian wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

In CP PvP the only way to kill people (at least seasoned players) is to out number them and burst them down

Well that's not true at all. You can also kill a seasoned player by being a seasoned player yourself, and having the skill, build, and experience to beat them. If you aren't on their level, why should you be able to kill them without outnumbering them?

No, you cant kill them unless they duel you. They can run away from +10 people and they can run away from you too. Boht of you will survive.