justaquickword wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Ah yes, the "toxic Elitist" debate is Always interesting.
From personal experience pointing out that someone should Train some more before entering vet Dungeons again is Always a sure way to get them to be Angry at you no matter how Right one is. Thing is, if you Queue as tank but you do 25% Group dps something is very wrong and it makes for a very miserable experience to spend one hour in a dungeon that should be cleared in 15 minutes. Its Always nice to get called a toxic Elitist for saying that 20k Group dps is not appropiate for vet Content.

justaquickword wrote: »

Bailing is one thing. Bailing after making some snidey comment is another.
Some people should just get over themselves.
99% of us all have the capacity to copy a YouTube build and the rotations if we want to. It's just some of us just want to play the game and not let the game play us.

Then kindly do so in overland or in normal Dungeons but do not expect People in vet to pick up the slack because you want to roleplay archerkitty nr. 742 and only bow light attack.

Funny guy...

Thanks for further proving my point...

I still don't even know what point you're making?

Sounds like you want use an RP-type build, purposefully gimp your DPS, and then waste other people's time by queuing into things. It's the exact same "toxic" behavior that the OP is referring to, just in the opposite direction.

Find a group of like-minded individuals and do your stuff with them. They'll both appreciate it, and you'll probably have more fun. It's the same reason that you don't see those PUG veteran trials. Players who want to run veteran trials, want to run with other like-minded players. Players who want to improve, they want to do more DPS, they want to be better healers, be better tanks. So they form their own groups of players like them and in many cases, don't bother with the others who don't have the same mindset.

Don't make assumptions on my playstyle and motivations and I then I won't have to make the assumption you're an arrogant condescending forum troll.

I don't do any of the things you've just listed but since there's no minimum DPS threshold in place for veteran dungeons I'd be quite within my rights to do so If I so wished.

The OP was about toxic behavior in pug veteran dungeons to which I replied, giving some of my recent negative experiences when participating in them.

Just for the record, I'm not there just for the achievements, and I don't expect anyone to carry me through them. It's the best way to learn the mechanics of them. Unless you're telling me I have to research them first on YouTube to reach your ever so exacting standards..

Unless a minimum DPS level for participation in them is introduced then I don't see why anyone should be ridiculed by other group members for failing to live up to a DPS level they deem "acceptable" in their own minds.

I never once said "end game" players were responsible or that everyone acts like that, but there are certainly a few who need a reality check.

That's a whole lot of mental gymnastics to get to those statements. And... I still have no clue what point you're trying to make...

Forum troll? "ever so exacting standards" did you even read my first response in this thread... I did a vet dungeon on my tank with two DPS that COMBINED to less than 20k DPS (a level you can reach solo on a full healer specced build)... if I had those "ever so exacting standards" do you think I would have stuck around?

Sounds like you want to just fight what others say just to fight, that's what I'm getting from your responses. I'm sorry I engaged you, as it's clear it's not going to accomplish anything. You do you, that's your right, just make sure that you don't infringe on the rights of others while doing so. Have a good day.

D0PAMINE wrote: »

End game players want more people to learn. It's such a small community now and trial groups are in short supply of players to run the Vet HM trials.

That is exactly my point, if everyone tries to help out each other we will have more players at the end game, that is why i actually wanted to point out the subject because it is hard to find people for endgame content and it gets harder every day, belive me i have ton of people in my friend list who are above 810cp but haven't done single HM trial yet.

D0PAMINE wrote: »

End game players want more people to learn. It's such a small community now and trial groups are in short supply of players to run the Vet HM trials.

Oh man, That's not good!! What happened to the community? Did they move on to other areas instead, or just stop playing?

BisDasBlutGefriert wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

End game players want more people to learn. It's such a small community now and trial groups are in short supply of players to run the Vet HM trials.

Oh man, That's not good!! What happened to the community? Did they move on to other areas instead, or just stop playing?

The 'audit' of the combat system in 2019 with Scalebreaker and Dragonhold patches were wild swings and major overhauls that no one asked for and ultimately achieved very little. Having to remake entire builds and adjust entire strategies every three months just soured the game for many people. On top of that, because the swings were so wild, it was only the highest level of endgame players who managed to adapt to the changes quickly. Mid tier and lower tier endgame players struggled a bit longer to get used to them.

People who weren't endgamers but were looking to make the transition or just putting their foot through the threshold of vet trials were suddenly thrown around by the wild combat changes and were left unsure in what to do next. Whatever builds or rotations they invested in learning, practicing or getting comfortable with were quickly becoming obsolete, rendering the effort they learned into playing them absolutely futile. It was a very, very frustrating time, both in PvE and PvP. Trial guilds that I was in, that were running ten or twelve trials a week, went dead within days due to players leaving the game in vexation.

As of right now, combat is (relatively) stable, but the Harrowstorm patch has been such an absolute horror on performance that the bosses and enemies in trials aren't responsible for player deaths: server lag is. Blocking is not being executed in time, leaving players dead. Single target abilities are staying grayed out on the skill bar and are rendered useless for several seconds, sometimes minutes. Even when they're not grayed out, sometimes it takes 2-3 times to press a key in order to get the cast to work, causing a massive loss in dps.

Adds that are taunted won't run run to tanks, instead running back and forth, looking like they're too confused and can't decide on who taunted them. Amusing to see at first, but when it comes to properly stacking adds for the sake of effectively killing them, this issue renders that almost impossible. Score pushing and doing time runs has become exceptionally more difficult because of this. The big cats in Sunspire that jump? They'll sometimes stay stuck in the air for several seconds, no idea when or where they'll land. Saint Olms in Asylum Sanctorium goes full on Superman at times and just glides in the air during his jump mechanic. That jump mechanic is also broken in that some times the count isn't right. He's supposed to jump 4 times, sometimes it's 3, sometimes it's 5.

Honestly I can go on and on about all the trials, but I think you get the point. And, while I don't PvP save to get my tier 1 rewards, I've been told by several people who do PvP regularly that Cyrodiil has been an utter nightmare of performance. More so than usual.

It's like any game, it's experience based..well that's like life too really.
Imagine this : You are in a very busy office and you are new on work experience, what generally happens? You go get the coffee and fumble through old archives for the next audit...well that my was life experience at a younger age.

I believe ESO does need to get the newer players into shape, I think it's quite obvious and I've felt this impact recently too being unable to complete a roster for some harder content. There may have been a bit too much emphasis on the more casual aspects (not a derogatory term) of the game for quite some time.

There will always be nicer and meaner people out there (in game and out), I've just clung to the nicer ones and there are nice 'good' players, believe me.

idk wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Ah yes, the "toxic Elitist" debate is Always interesting.
From personal experience pointing out that someone should Train some more before entering vet Dungeons again is Always a sure way to get them to be Angry at you no matter how Right one is. Thing is, if you Queue as tank but you do 25% Group dps something is very wrong and it makes for a very miserable experience to spend one hour in a dungeon that should be cleared in 15 minutes. Its Always nice to get called a toxic Elitist for saying that 20k Group dps is not appropiate for vet Content.

justaquickword wrote: »

Bailing is one thing. Bailing after making some snidey comment is another.
Some people should just get over themselves.
99% of us all have the capacity to copy a YouTube build and the rotations if we want to. It's just some of us just want to play the game and not let the game play us.

Then kindly do so in overland or in normal Dungeons but do not expect People in vet to pick up the slack because you want to roleplay archerkitty nr. 742 and only bow light attack.

Funny guy...

Thanks for further proving my point...

I still don't even know what point you're making?

Sounds like you want use an RP-type build, purposefully gimp your DPS, and then waste other people's time by queuing into things. It's the exact same "toxic" behavior that the OP is referring to, just in the opposite direction.

Find a group of like-minded individuals and do your stuff with them. They'll both appreciate it, and you'll probably have more fun. It's the same reason that you don't see those PUG veteran trials. Players who want to run veteran trials, want to run with other like-minded players. Players who want to improve, they want to do more DPS, they want to be better healers, be better tanks. So they form their own groups of players like them and in many cases, don't bother with the others who don't have the same mindset.

I don't do any of the things you've just listed but since there's no minimum DPS threshold in place for veteran dungeons I'd be quite within my rights to do so If I so wished.

The post this comment came from was all over the place. This comment really stuck out.

Honestly, this kind of attitude that I can do whatever I want to DPS wise and I am within my rights if I wished to be is just as toxic as someone talking down to a player bashing them for how they are playing.

Honestly, it is the reason I no longer queue solo as a tank to help the GF. had been paired with my fair share of groups that lacked the DPS to get past bosses. I did not say anything but in reality, they wasted everyone's time. Too many players do not care about their DPS or how it affects the groups they are with.

For those interested in learning there are guilds, players, and guides to help them. Running with guildmates is the best way to learn and improve one's skill in playing this game. Having an attitude that there is no minimum DPS threshold so I am within my right to do what I want is a poor attitude to have if you are going to group with players.

Well said.

zantarizb14_ESO wrote: »

For me I just don't feel the need to do vet content. You can do it on normal and still experience the story and environment without the extra boss mechanics, which is enough to satisfy me.

With other games you actually miss out on important story line content if you are unable to perform at the highest level, which is why I don't play those games anymore. You spend two years experiencing a story line and then you don't get to see the conclusion... it's like getting to the end of a book to find the last 30 pages ripped out or watching a movie to have the disc glitch out 10 minutes before the end of the movie. It's a horrible experience.

I also don't do vet content for spite. It bothers me that the game lends itself to playing your character any way you want to play it, which lends itself to great variety, but then if you want to play the highest level content, you need to put your points in the magical sequence (see external third party website who have number crunching experts to tell you exactly how you should play your character) in order to succeed at that content. On the other hand... maybe that's okay since you can just chose to do the content on normal mode and leave the challenge to players who don't mind having to play cookie cutter builds.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

End game players want more people to learn. It's such a small community now and trial groups are in short supply of players to run the Vet HM trials.

Eh.... I'm not interested in "endgame". I've been there done that in other games. I'm retired. I have ZERO interest in a job - in a game I play to get away from RL.

Both of these are fine! No need to do the vet content if you don't want to. There's no difference in story in ESO.

This is more about people who are trying to do the vet content, but don't want to put in the time or effort, to make those experiences be good for all involved.

EDIT: As an addendum... most "end-game" builds aren't as "cookie cutter" as you think.. .there's a ton of variety that is used in groups. The only exception might be the groups doing score pushing/Godslayer progression in vSS HM... the DPS levels required there have narrower acceptable ranges... but for everything else, there are hundreds of viable builds.

tmbrinks wrote: »

zantarizb14_ESO wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

End game players want more people to learn. It's such a small community now and trial groups are in short supply of players to run the Vet HM trials.

Eh.... I'm not interested in "endgame". I've been there done that in other games. I'm retired. I have ZERO interest in a job - in a game I play to get away from RL.

P.S. Why haven't we learned this lesson from other games? Did we expect elite end game content to be an experience that was any different in other games where 1% of the players are doing the content? Again, I'm fine with that especially if it represents a minor effort on development to increase some numbers and add a couple extra mechanics to existing content that is available to the masses on normal mode. This is unlike other game models where massive amounts of development time is devoted to content designed for the 1%.

Did you mean "for" instead of "from"

Because I'd already say that the amount of "elite" 1% material in ESO does not take a massive amount of development. Elder Scrolls games have always been more about the story and lore, and there's a lot of that in ESO. I think they take a lot more time developing story and content accessible to all than a lot of other game.

Sorry for the confusion. It is correct as stated. The end game content is for the few. However, I was saying that I suspect ESO doesn't devote a massive amount of development time for the 1%.

I don't do it because I did it a few times and realized 'oh it's exactly the same every time'. That's not a game at all.

Tigerseye wrote: »

Yeah, I can't be bothered with it, here.

Think someone paid for a boost for me, in some trial, without telling me, when I was still low CP.

It was boring, as they were all too good for it and the leader, apparently, thought he was some kind of sergeant major and was demanding all the noobs line up behind him, on a bridge, or he wouldn't go in.

I was the only one obediently doing it, but it always makes me laugh when I see that kind of thing.

Also, I crashed during it, which is always annoying and I have the ongoing perpetual annoyance of not liking the way you are forced to move yourself and your camera, separately, here.

I can do it (even with no mouse!), like I can do weaving, but I continue to find it unnatural and annoying, especially in certain settings where you have a lot of things to look out for and no real room to manoeuvre.

I then went home and deconned everything, as I had no idea what was worth keeping (if anything) and couldn't be bothered to find out.

An altogether underwhelming experience and I say this as someone who did some "real raiding", to HC level (which was the top level, then) in WoW.

Yeah. Super boring.

Dodging out of red circles really isn't the most stimulating, challenging or fun thing to do in the world. It just isn't.

Even if you kill players who make a single mis-step.

Nor is defeating a supposedly infinitely superior enemy who just happens to be vulnerable to some inane "mechanic".

I've been MMO'ing long enough that I remember a time when that crazy crap was only in raids. Which only the teensiest, tiniest minority of players actually enjoy or play.

Dungeons used to actually be fun. Without needing to research crazy arsed "mechanics" online first or be "taught" the dungeon.

You rock up. Play your character / class / role / whatever well. Have fun with everyone. Defeat some baddies. Maybe get some nice loot.

Not that all mechanics are terrible. The Polaris dungeon in the first zone in The Secret World is actually quite good, cos its mechanics are immersive and make sense. Like not standing in water when a boss makes an electrical attack. Or the GIGANTIC end boss not being able to hurt you if you take shelter behind the pillars. But only that dungeon. The rest that I saw are the usual lazy, arbitrary garbage.

I've not seen anything praiseworthy in ESO.

Seriously, even watching that last ESO Live nearly put me to sleep. That? That was the vaunted and much praised grappling hook mechanic? Just the warden's useless vines ability.