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Everything wrong with balance in ESO

LordSkruff
LordSkruff
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Zos has been working towards the goals of balance and class identity very hard over the course of the lifetime of the game.
However I would like to share pain points that myself and many others around me as I am writing this have as we have all played for multiple years. And have a deep understanding of the combat system and balance between classes.

A few ideas I would like to mention before I get in to the specifics.
I believe each classes 'counter-play' option should be in its weakest points
For example DK has wings in order to relieve pressure from Ranged attacks to enable the class to move within melee range to achieve stronger healing and sustain where the class should shine.

balance should be calculated with Bar space in mind for example it takes 3 skills on a warden / necromancer to kill most opponents excluding ultis
Whereas on a StamDK it can take up to 6 skills with pure offensive potential to achieve a similar offensive result in DPS.

DRAGONKNIGHT as a class is recognised as the Attrition class with the Pressure melee playstyle it survives by keeping in melee range.
SORC as a class is recognised as a mobility class that relies on timied burst to kill its opponent with large aoe CC capability.
NIGHTBLADE is recognised as a stealthy class with high speed and damage based off surprise burst.
TEMPLAR is recognised as the support class it has access to purge and strong healing.
WARDEN is recognised as the class of nature and balance (ironic)
NECROMANCER is recognised as the class of the manipulation death the idea of it starting slower and gradually becoming more lethal sounds good




Dragon knight

If DK is the pressure based playstyle with its toolkit. let it pressure. its counter play tools should mitigate / reflect ranged projectiles while slowly moving towards the target to out pressure the opponent and out sustain them. and the weakness of the DK should be defile / ranged classes or countering their healing through means of distance.

From my several tests Currently burst classes are Doing = or more DPS vs a dummy with 3 damage skills than DK can do with 6 offensive skills and bash cancelling. DK pressure should see
A Stamina Necromancer with the exact same sets can pull off 18k DPS on a dummy. a STAMDK can pull off 16k DPS. this is not attrition this is labour with no reward. DK should be rewarded more for keeping in position and keeping up buffs.

In melee range the DK should be performing MORE DPS than any other class. while they are locking down an opponent They are locked themselves they have to invest time into achieving a kill. while this concept of gameplay is unique. it is severely under-rewarding.

I understand that If delayed burst classes are nerfed too harshly the killing potential drops off significantly which is why I am not calling for nerfs on the damage that warden and necromancer can deal so much
I think the DK toolkit should get a 20% buff on dot intensity.
corrosive should scale on dots for physical pen also to match the playstyle that the DK embodies Make it say 80% penetration rather than 100% so its not quite so overbearing.
magma shell is useless at its current state let it do spell pen and become a magic variant of corrosive.
also the cost of the skills excluding ultimate's should be reduced by at least 10-15% all around.
This is since DK's need to invest in more sustain than any other class to achieve a kill. being forced to invest into MORE sustain than other classes while STILL doing less DPS Then an AOE burst classes.

Having played all classes this class is not displaying Attrition its more so the opposite.


Sorcerer

Stamsorc needs its burst reworked. its currently relying on its passives in combination with dizzy and ultimate to secure a kill
I think a stamina morph of curse would be fitting as opposed to Daedric Prey with damage equivalent to roughly 75% of the current blast bones tooltip in live

Besides viable options for playstyle sorcerer is in a relatively good spot at the moment.


Night blade

For a class that is supposed to be about stealthy kills and surprise burst its one of the classes with the most mitigation at the moment.
night blade is in a bit of an identity crisis. While I think that all classes should be able to play various playstyles nightblade is capable of achieving major evasion minor maim minor protection and further mitigation giving it some of the Tankiest class toolkits available. something isn't right here zos...
Apart from this the class also is relatively okay.


Templar.

One of the biggest complaints I hear about templar is the purge. Purge is the counter play tool for the templar allowing it to relieve pressure and heal allies instead of arguing for a large nerf on this skill I think the DOTS being too weak are the bigger problem making this off heal seem strong.

Imagine if Purge was changed to single target and reduced the damage of negative effects by 50% for 6 seconds...…. this would be awful for templar. a huge nerf. however this is exactly what wings does right now. wings used to be a tool to allow for reduced stamina sustain and tankiness to push for the sustain and damage due to reduced CC's incoming from range just like templar purge works as an off heal a group heal and strong counter play all in one skill.

Make wings reflect again and level the playing field. Or at very least an absorb not like damage mitigation I mean like complete ignorance of ranged attacks and effects for 4 projectiles. or 3 seconds.

Templar also is in a similar position to DK regarding dots. due to the nerfs of the dots and the change of jabs scaling. it benefits direct damage playstyles tremendously. making stamplar one of the strongest classes to play right now.

Make puncturing sweeps scale off Dot CP
Make Biting jabs scale off Direct damage.
Bring Up the class dots by 20%

This will allow both variants of the class able to access the tactician passive should they choose so. slightly reducing the gap between stamplar and magplar.


Warden.

Warden is probably one of the most overbuffed classes at the moment at least for stamina I look at warden almost like a bomber it has snare immunity and expedition to allow for fast movement and a huge burst kit.

why does warden need major mending.
why does warden need minor protection.

let minor mending be applied to the accelerated growth passive to keep it in line with other class passives.
perhaps let ice fortress give minor resolve / ward to make it less overtuned.


Necromancer.

Um yeah blastbones snares without saying it remove this it even snares through mistform.

defile doesn't belong on a tanky burst playstyle. it covers to broad of an area of offense with one skill... I think necro would manage just fine without it.
I think it hits a little too hard maybe a 10% damage reduction would be acceptable..
in all honesty there are many various nerfs that could be made to blastbones but only one should be necessary.

another idea for blast bones is to make it almost stack. say every blast bones becomes gradually more dangerous in burst rather than basically instantly killing you. at the moment it feels like a warden rework. the class could be far more balanced AND interesting like this.

15% increased damage on dots and dot mitigation is excessive in comparison to the mitigation other classes have available.

I don't imagine necromancer being tanky by nature. more so the damage and pressure being strong with good sustain. at the moment its basically a complete package in PVP even worse than the warden its like 2x more powerful than any meta build in the past at the moment.



Edited by LordSkruff on April 15, 2020 10:11PM
  • LordSkruff
    LordSkruff
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    accidentally posted I will continue to work on this thread in order of classes
  • Lole
    Lole
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    LordSkruff wrote: »
    Zos has been working towards the goals of balance and class identity very hard over the course of the lifetime of the game.
    However I would like to share pain points that myself and many others around me as I am writing this have as we have all played for multiple years. And have a deep understanding of the combat system and balance between classes.

    A few ideas I would like to mention before I get in to the specifics.
    I believe each classes 'counter-play' option should be in its weakest points
    For example DK has wings in order to relieve pressure from Ranged attacks to enable the class to move within melee range to achieve stronger healing and sustain where the class should shine.

    balance should be calculated with Bar space in mind for example it takes 3 skills on a warden / necromancer to kill most opponents excluding ultis
    Whereas on a StamDK it can take up to 6 skills with pure offensive potential to achieve a similar offensive result in DPS.

    DRAGONKNIGHT as a class is recognised as the Attrition class with the Pressure melee playstyle it survives by keeping in melee range.
    SORC as a class is recognised as a mobility class that relies on timied burst to kill its opponent with large aoe CC capability.
    NIGHTBLADE is recognised as a stealthy class with high speed and damage.
    TEMPLAR is recognised as the support class it has access to purge.
    WARDEN is recognised as the class of nature
    NECROMANCER is recognised as the class of the manipulation death.

    If DK is the pressure based playstyle with its toolkit. let it pressure. its counter play should mitigate / reflect ranged projectiles while slowly moving towards the target to out pressure the opponent and out sustain them. and the weakness of the DK should be defile / ranged classes or countering their healing through means of distance.

    From my several tests Currently burst classes are Doing = or more DPS vs a dummy with 3 damage skills than DK can do with 6 offensive skills and bash cancelling. DK pressure should see
    A Stamina Necromancer with the exact same sets can pull off 18k DPS on a dummy. a STAMDK can pull off 16k DPS. this is not attrition this is labour with no reward. DK should be rewarded more for keeping in position and keeping up buffs.

    In melee range the DK should be performing MORE DPS than any other class. while they are locking down an opponent They are locked themselves they have to invest time into achieving a kill. while this concept of gameplay is unique. it is severely under-rewarding.

    I understand that If delayed burst classes are nerfed too harshly the killing potential drops off significantly which is why I am not calling for nerfs on the damage that warden and necromancer can deal so much
    I think the DK toolkit should get a 20% buff on dot intensity.
    corrosive should scale on dots for physical pen also to match the playstyle that the DK embodies Make it say 80% penetration rather than 100% so its not quite so overbearing.
    magma shell is useless let it do spell pen and become a magic variant of corrosive.
    also the cost of the skills excluding ultimate's should be reduced by at least 10-15% all around
    This is since DK's need to invest in more sustain than any other class to achieve a kill. being forced to invest into MORE sustain than other classes while STILL doing less DPS Then an AOE burst classes. isn't attrition.

    Stamsorc needs its burst

    And why should dk be more pressure based than a stamcro? They are both very similar when it comes to speed and tankyness, I could argue the other way arround and say necro should be the dotboss and pressure boss cuz we have a dotpassive 🤗

    Main part of the offensive power of a stamcro is the overpowered 2handed skillline.feel free to use it yourself and your dmg will be equal 😋



    But in all honesty before they start adjusting stamclasses with each other, they should fix the celling stamina vs magicka
    But I have hope that the new vamp line is going to push magicka close enough to stamina
    Edited by Lole on April 15, 2020 8:45PM
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    "Balance" is different for every single player in ESO, @LordSkruff.

    Even the first forum-goer post after you shows this difference clearly.

    It's up to ZOS to balance the game around many playstyles ... not just your playstyle.

    Edited by Taleof2Cities on April 15, 2020 8:39PM
  • LordSkruff
    LordSkruff
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    "Balance" is different for every single player in ESO, @LordSkruff.

    Even the first forum-goer post after you shows this difference clearly.

    It's up to ZOS to balance the game around many playstyles ... not just your playstyle.

    I don't have any one playstyle I have several.
  • LordSkruff
    LordSkruff
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    Lole wrote: »
    LordSkruff wrote: »
    Zos has been working towards the goals of balance and class identity very hard over the course of the lifetime of the game.
    However I would like to share pain points that myself and many others around me as I am writing this have as we have all played for multiple years. And have a deep understanding of the combat system and balance between classes.

    A few ideas I would like to mention before I get in to the specifics.
    I believe each classes 'counter-play' option should be in its weakest points
    For example DK has wings in order to relieve pressure from Ranged attacks to enable the class to move within melee range to achieve stronger healing and sustain where the class should shine.

    balance should be calculated with Bar space in mind for example it takes 3 skills on a warden / necromancer to kill most opponents excluding ultis
    Whereas on a StamDK it can take up to 6 skills with pure offensive potential to achieve a similar offensive result in DPS.

    DRAGONKNIGHT as a class is recognised as the Attrition class with the Pressure melee playstyle it survives by keeping in melee range.
    SORC as a class is recognised as a mobility class that relies on timied burst to kill its opponent with large aoe CC capability.
    NIGHTBLADE is recognised as a stealthy class with high speed and damage.
    TEMPLAR is recognised as the support class it has access to purge.
    WARDEN is recognised as the class of nature
    NECROMANCER is recognised as the class of the manipulation death.

    If DK is the pressure based playstyle with its toolkit. let it pressure. its counter play should mitigate / reflect ranged projectiles while slowly moving towards the target to out pressure the opponent and out sustain them. and the weakness of the DK should be defile / ranged classes or countering their healing through means of distance.

    From my several tests Currently burst classes are Doing = or more DPS vs a dummy with 3 damage skills than DK can do with 6 offensive skills and bash cancelling. DK pressure should see
    A Stamina Necromancer with the exact same sets can pull off 18k DPS on a dummy. a STAMDK can pull off 16k DPS. this is not attrition this is labour with no reward. DK should be rewarded more for keeping in position and keeping up buffs.

    In melee range the DK should be performing MORE DPS than any other class. while they are locking down an opponent They are locked themselves they have to invest time into achieving a kill. while this concept of gameplay is unique. it is severely under-rewarding.

    I understand that If delayed burst classes are nerfed too harshly the killing potential drops off significantly which is why I am not calling for nerfs on the damage that warden and necromancer can deal so much
    I think the DK toolkit should get a 20% buff on dot intensity.
    corrosive should scale on dots for physical pen also to match the playstyle that the DK embodies Make it say 80% penetration rather than 100% so its not quite so overbearing.
    magma shell is useless let it do spell pen and become a magic variant of corrosive.
    also the cost of the skills excluding ultimate's should be reduced by at least 10-15% all around
    This is since DK's need to invest in more sustain than any other class to achieve a kill. being forced to invest into MORE sustain than other classes while STILL doing less DPS Then an AOE burst classes. isn't attrition.

    Stamsorc needs its burst

    And why should dk be more pressure based than a stamcro? They are both very similar when it comes to speed and tankyness, I could argue the other way arround and say necro should be the dotboss and pressure boss cuz we have a dotpassive 🤗

    Main part of the offensive power of a stamcro is the overpowered 2handed skillline.feel free to use it yourself and your dmg will be equal 😋



    But in all honesty before they start adjusting stamclasses with each other, they should fix the celling stamina vs magicka
    But I have hope that the new vamp line is going to push magicka close enough to stamina

    I was thinking of this myself you know with necromancer being all about rotting flesh and everything slow painful death sounds more necromancer. but what tf will dk have if it doesn't have dots you know?
  • Abyssmol
    Abyssmol
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    It looks like OP mains a DK. Ok, why DKs have major mending and Templars do not? I mean, templar is the support/healing class, right? Class identity is a myth... only my opinion...
  • Thannazzar
    Thannazzar
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    PVP Balance should be maintained with the correct scaling of battlespirit.

    Individual class and Weaponline Buffs and Nerfs should only be applied based on pve role performance parity between classes and stam/mag variants.
  • Czekoludek
    Czekoludek
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    LordSkruff wrote: »
    Night blade

    For a class that is supposed to be about stealthy kills and surprise burst its one of the classes with the most mitigation at the moment.
    night blade is in a bit of an identity crisis. While I think that all classes should be able to play various playstyles nightblade is capable of achieving major evasion minor maim minor protection and further mitigation giving it some of the Tankiest class toolkits available. something isn't right here zos...
    Apart from this the class also is relatively okay.
    Are we really asking for nb nerfs in 2020?
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    Magicka Dragonknight is very much what you pictured. Very high dps in both pve and pvp. No other class is so dangerous damage wise as a Magicka Dragonknight (In my opinion)

    I do not feel this way when it comes to stamina Dragonknights though for some reason.
    And I totally agree that DK needs alot of abilities to deal its damage and should therefor be rewarded for it. On the other hand, it's a class with an immense level of passive damage mitigation and tankiness. So it should be argued if a tank class like this should be allowed to deal more dps than squishy damage classes like Sorcerer and Nightblade (You are again correct; they have received alot of damage mitigation, at the cost of damage). However, that is exactly how it is in ESO. Tanky classes like Templar, DK and Necromancer outdps those squishy classes by alot.

    I find this somewhat unfair and bad design. It is also not fair how easily Necromancers and Wardens can kill with 2 abilities whereas Dragonknight has to use several abilities. Though never underestimate that Dragon Jump+Dizzying Swing combo.

    If you are the Lord Skruff from the City, then you know this. :)
    Edited by Dracane on April 15, 2020 11:55PM
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.

    My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    I think this thread is a good example of why it's not easy to balance the game. ZoS hasn't pulled it off and IMO no one in this thread has done a great job at it either. And if I gave my ideas, people would probably disagree with that as well.

    I would say we can all agree the game isn't balanced well, but once we get past that statement we often don't even agree on what exactly is and isn't balanced.

    For example I've seen stamsorc players asking for buffs, changes, etc. for months on end on the forums and yeah, they tossed us that reworked nightblade skill, but tbh, stamsorcs are one of the stronger and more versatile stamina classes in the game. I've always enjoyed the fact that my stamsorc can make use of a dead ability like magicka to turn it into buffs, or stamina, or even add to their ability to escape/stun with streak. My templar, warden and necro seem to do an ok job with making use of magicka as well, but not as efficiently as a stamsorc does IMO. I would agree with OP that some of the passives and skills feel a little too tacked on after the fact, as in you can tell it would probably look very different if designed from the ground up, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they were out of balance as in being too weak. About the only thing I've wanted to see different with stamsorcs is a physical damage version of their atro.

    (This goes into more than just OPs post) I also think it's not as black and white as just saying one class needs five or six skills to kill and another needs two or three. Things are much more intricate than that. If I dodge one of your DK attacks, that's only 1 of six skills not ticking on me, where if I dodge the main burst of a class that has a few attacks, that's a considerable amount of damage avoided for that dodge.

    And not every passive of a class is a statement to what that class is all about. Necros having dot buffs doesn't mean DK cannot also do well with poison and fire dots, it doesn't take anything away and in fact still can give a nod to necros because of how wide a brush an overall dot buff can be instead of just being to specific types like fire, poison, cold, etc. DKs getting mending buff doesn't mean they are any more or less a healing class than another class like Templar, one buff does not out-do having a variety of tools at your disposal, nor does having that variety mean you are relegated to one role. i.e. Templar is not a support/healing class as one person said. In fact at launch they were pitched more as a warrior of light or like a Paladin and it's taken zos a long time to finally get them out of that support rut they were stuck in at launch. They are finally in a place where they are good at a variety of roles in the game (except tanking, they are still worst at that) and playstyles and in fact I'd take my warden healing before my templar. I'd say most people that view them as a healer only class are either stuck in that mindset because they like breath of life for its easy quick heal or used to how templar used to be viewed years ago. They don't really offer more healing wise than many other classes and some even offer more in other forms of buffs on top of heals. Argue the point or not, the problem is, when one person decided to balance a class around one specific role and saying that's what they are for, then they break the class for every other role in the game instead of balancing it.

    As for my idea, I would simply make several small tweaks each patch instead of one giant overhaul. That way things were not completely out of whack for an entire cycle or more. First thing is just to identify the classes that were under-performing in some situations. I think Wardens need some help in PvE dps without making them too strong in PvP. I think Templars need some love in tanking again without making them tankier in pvp. Necros still need more polishing as well. Nightblades have lost a bit of class identity imo and have been over nerfed a bit, but again, they have particular skills that still make them solid for some builds in PvP. So I think minor changes each patch would be better than an overhaul.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Neophyte
    Neophyte
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    Who cares about balance in a game that doesn’t have a competitive PvP scene and lag can most often decide the outcome of a fight.
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