Does frostvault bring out the jerks?

worrallj · April 2020

Twice in a row yesterday qued for random vet. Twice in a row got the infamous frostvault, and twice in a row got tanks who were honestly quite good but stunningly overbearing and rude.

One demanded everyone link their gear in chat so he could "see what he was working with." After two wipes in the laser room he called us all pathetic and left.

The second told everyone to get out unless they'd join his discord, and then tried to kick our healer before the run even started so his friend could join. I promtly left the group.

Was this just rotten luck or it common in frostvault? I've only done it a few times and have never got past the laser room. I know I should let it go but golly these guys got under my skin. The positive vibes you can get from some parts of this community is awesome, but man a slime ball or two can really mess up your mojo for the day. I know premades are more reliable but pugs can be fun unless you get folks like this.

El_Borracho · April 2020

Its just bad luck. If you are willing to pug Frostvault, you need to be prepared for a lot of deaths.

Waynerx8 · April 2020

Just tell the idiots to F.... o..

BXR_Lonestar · April 2020

This is going to be an issue for you or anyone else random queing and ending up in a Vet DLC dungeon. The problem is more due to the fact that Vet DLC dungeons are definitely a step or two up from base content dungeons, and the reality is that you will not be able to complete the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time if people aren't well equipped and know what they're doing. Most people don't want to invest that kind of time with players they don't know, and if they stick around at all after getting a Vet DLC dungeon in a random que (or if they qued without a premade specifically for a Vet DLC dungeon), they're just looking to try to get a quick completion.

That said, I don't even try queing for any DLC dungeons. I just wait to run with my own team or with guild mates. Its easier to avoid this kind of situation.

sunshineflame · April 2020

As my 5 year old would say "you get what you get and you can't throw a fit" or so they teach him in Kindergarten. Sadly random queues in both PvE and PvP BG's expose you to everyone, and some people think they are Meridia's gift to Tamriel and everyone else is a trashcan with no thumbs.

Queuing for randoms with guildies for PvE is the best way around most of this behavior. Good luck finding a quality group of people who would rather support others than belittle to make themselves feel more important. There are plenty of great guilds out there.

Cage_Lizardman · April 2020

Tanking pugs is a really crappy job, especially in vet dlc's, and yes it does make you hate everyone and everything, this is normal.

xXMeowMeowXx · April 2020

Why would you want to pug Frostvault in the first place?? That is asking for punishment. The marquis de sade would be proud of you.

On how they acted, maybe they had a bunch a wipes due to unprepared players or they were just ‘A holes’

I would go with the latter

El_Borracho · April 2020

I agree @BXR_Lonestar. I was talking about the people who show up willing to pug a DLC like Frostvault. I've done it as a DPS several times. I've had good and bad luck with groups in it. Heck, I'm happy if 2 of the other 3 group members have comms.

But if you are going to queue as a tank into a random vet on dungeon finder, you can't expect perfection.

SickleCider · April 2020

*If you have a friend, try to get them to queue with you. A lot of my negative experiences have been softened or even prevented because we had each other's backs. I think when there's positive communication between at least 50% of the team, things go better.

*. . . that plays with you. I realized just now how funny that sounded. lol

DaveMoeDee · April 2020

I can see both sides on this.

We should all talk to one another with respect when Pugging. Even when we are voting to kick, we can do it without making it personal. I also believe we should not expect anything close to a speed run pugging.

It often isn't hard to get a decent idea if a group will be able to clear a dungeon early on. As a tank, there have been times when on the first trash we faced I realized the DPS would not be enough to clear the dungeon. I continued to the first boss to give others a chance, but that was a disaster. I respectfully told the group it wasn't going to happen and I ended up leaving.

I remember tanking vWGT with pugs back in the day. One time when it was a pledge, I got it as a random. It was clear that it was taking a long time to kill the crematorial guards. I was pretty sure we would struggle later on if the crematorial guards were causing so many problems. For over a half hour, our attempts at the Planar Inhibitor were in vain. We disbanded. My next random queue ended up as vWGT again. This group just melted the crematorial guards and also just melted The Planar Inhibitor. If I had bailed on the group when they where stuggling to kill non-bosses in a timely manner, I could have saved 40 minutes. I have no problem with spending that 40 minutes if we actually finish the content.

There are times when DPS is too low to outpace boss self-heals and manage adds. Then one person drops and gets replaced and all is fine. Or no one is willing to be the one to quit and I just politely cut bait, probably making up an excuse for why I can't continue.

I also remember a vet pug when the DPS was horrid on the engine guardian such that we couldn't handle the adds. I would stack them, but they would just laugh at the damage until they started killing. The healer bailed and was replaced with a Sorc healer. This made me very happy because I expected the sorc would bring more dps. We kill the Engine Guardian with ease.

BXR_Lonestar · April 2020

El_Borracho wrote: »

I agree @BXR_Lonestar. I was talking about the people who show up willing to pug a DLC like Frostvault. I've done it as a DPS several times. I've had good and bad luck with groups in it. Heck, I'm happy if 2 of the other 3 group members have comms.

But if you are going to queue as a tank into a random vet on dungeon finder, you can't expect perfection.

That can be said of basically any role tbh. Honestly, I wish they would remove DLC dungeons from random que or, better yet, simply make the option to remove them from the possible of dungeons that it will put you into. They've specifically designed the DLC dungeons to pose more of a challenge for players who have reached an endgame phase and not everyone who ends up in those dungeons is going to be capable of completing that content on Vet. Since Vet DLC Dungeons are treated as 4 man endgame content, they can't be shocked that nobody wants to que for them.

Heck, completing some of these dungeons on normal is a stretch for some people. I qued as a tank for a random normal dungeon a week or so ago and got Moon Hunter Keep. The healer was from my group, but the DPS were randoms. One was 810, the other was CP 260 something, but it was clear that neither of the DPS knew what they were doing, because every time I got rooted by the boss, neither of them knew to bash/interrupt the boss to prevent the boss from OHK me. And my healer could have switched to a lightning staff for crushing shock, but they kept starting the fight before she could gear swap, so after 3 fails, we just bailed.

El_Borracho · April 2020

@DaveMoeDee all true. Frostvault is a hard dungeon with a guild group. Its probably the hardest to pug. If you are willing to jump into that mess as a tank, DPS, or healer, you have to have patience. I wouldn't tolerate a tank in a guild demanding I post my gear let alone someone in a pug.

Solace1981 · April 2020

That sucks. I love PUG'ing on my tank, it's kinda my thing. I don't mind spending time explaining mechanics but there are times I have to politely ask a dps to leave because sometimes, you really just don't have the dps. The whole "lemme see your gear thing" is kinda nutty though haha. Also, Frostvault is extremely buggy right now especially that boss and especially that mechanic. You might have died due to no fault of your own. Sometimes, the shield just doesn't block the beam. It's been reported and few posts on bug forums about it. No acknowledgement from ZOS. I've just been avoiding it. Don't do Imp City Prison either. Synergy mechanic on last boss is bugged atm as well.

DaveMoeDee · April 2020

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

This is going to be an issue for you or anyone else random queing and ending up in a Vet DLC dungeon. The problem is more due to the fact that Vet DLC dungeons are definitely a step or two up from base content dungeons, and the reality is that you will not be able to complete the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time if people aren't well equipped and know what they're doing. Most people don't want to invest that kind of time with players they don't know, and if they stick around at all after getting a Vet DLC dungeon in a random que (or if they qued without a premade specifically for a Vet DLC dungeon), they're just looking to try to get a quick completion.

That said, I don't even try queing for any DLC dungeons. I just wait to run with my own team or with guild mates. Its easier to avoid this kind of situation.

Personally, I wish people could just exclude the DLC dungeons from their random vet queues. Especially when I want to queue for the DLC pledge. Let people queuing for the DLC pledge get matched with other people who actually want to play that content. I get that the reason they don't do that is that queuing for DLC dungeons that aren't the pledge would lead to a really long wait, but whatever. That is better than one person queuing for that DLC pulling in 3 people doing randoms with no interest in that dungeon.

That being said, most of my first-time vet DLC clears were random pugs where I just read a guide on my other monitor so I knew who to taunt.

worrallj · April 2020

For the record, dps was not our problem. I do 55k on the dummy, and me and the other guy seemed about the same. What got us was just the mechanics. The other group never even started cuz the tank just started telling people to get out and kicking people (all cp 810 btw) so he could turn it into his own little premade.

And I get that often one doesnt want to spend the time with a green group when you could be doing other things. I tank pugs too, and I have left groups when it's clear they aren't up to snuff. Fine no problem you can be human about it and just say "sorry guys, we're struggling here and I'm not up for a slog right now." But for the love of God these guys were being absurdly overbearing and rude.

worrallj · April 2020

Solace1981 wrote: »

That sucks. I love PUG'ing on my tank, it's kinda my thing. I don't mind spending time explaining mechanics but there are times I have to politely ask a dps to leave because sometimes, you really just don't have the dps. The whole "lemme see your gear thing" is kinda nutty though haha. Also, Frostvault is extremely buggy right now especially that boss and especially that mechanic. You might have died due to no fault of your own. Sometimes, the shield just doesn't block the beam. It's been reported and few posts on bug forums about it. No acknowledgement from ZOS. I've just been avoiding it. Don't do Imp City Prison either. Synergy mechanic on last boss is bugged atm as well.

That's very kind of you @Solace1981 but no I died due to the mechanics 😋. For some reason it takes my brain forever to figure out which side the laser is coming out of.

Zardayne · April 2020

I got hammered pugging in there by the vault guardian this weekend..I don't care to see that place for awhile!

worrallj · April 2020

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I can see both sides on this.

We should all talk to one another with respect when Pugging. Even when we are voting to kick, we can do it without making it personal. I also believe we should not expect anything close to a speed run pugging.

It often isn't hard to get a decent idea if a group will be able to clear a dungeon early on. As a tank, there have been times when on the first trash we faced I realized the DPS would not be enough to clear the dungeon. I continued to the first boss to give others a chance, but that was a disaster. I respectfully told the group it wasn't going to happen and I ended up leaving.

I remember tanking vWGT with pugs back in the day. One time when it was a pledge, I got it as a random. It was clear that it was taking a long time to kill the crematorial guards. I was pretty sure we would struggle later on if the crematorial guards were causing so many problems. For over a half hour, our attempts at the Planar Inhibitor were in vain. We disbanded. My next random queue ended up as vWGT again. This group just melted the crematorial guards and also just melted The Planar Inhibitor. If I had bailed on the group when they where stuggling to kill non-bosses in a timely manner, I could have saved 40 minutes. I have no problem with spending that 40 minutes if we actually finish the content.

There are times when DPS is too low to outpace boss self-heals and manage adds. Then one person drops and gets replaced and all is fine. Or no one is willing to be the one to quit and I just politely cut bait, probably making up an excuse for why I can't continue.

I also remember a vet pug when the DPS was horrid on the engine guardian such that we couldn't handle the adds. I would stack them, but they would just laugh at the damage until they started killing. The healer bailed and was replaced with a Sorc healer. This made me very happy because I expected the sorc would bring more dps. We kill the Engine Guardian with ease.

You see both sides? First of all none of this low dps stuff applies. In the first case dps was fine, and in second case no mobs were even fought he just started kicking people or telling them to get out.

Second and much more importantly, I am not complaining about these guys "losing faith in the group." I tank pugs too and yeah of course if folks are underperforming sometimes I leave. The only thing I'm complaining about is what in my mind amounts to bullying.

yRaven · April 2020

In my opinion Frostvault is the worse DLC Dungeon as i did all, don't PUG it, just don't

tsaescishoeshiner · April 2020

Before its use to guard the Dragonstone, Frostvault originated as a Dwemer salt-mining operation. Their tonal mechanics and geomancy resulted in extraordinarily efficient mineral extraction, and as the Dwemer's legacy outlives them even now, no other location in Tamriel sports higher levels of salt than the living ruins of Frostvault.

DaveMoeDee · April 2020

worrallj wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I can see both sides on this.

We should all talk to one another with respect when Pugging. Even when we are voting to kick, we can do it without making it personal. I also believe we should not expect anything close to a speed run pugging.

It often isn't hard to get a decent idea if a group will be able to clear a dungeon early on. As a tank, there have been times when on the first trash we faced I realized the DPS would not be enough to clear the dungeon. I continued to the first boss to give others a chance, but that was a disaster. I respectfully told the group it wasn't going to happen and I ended up leaving.

I remember tanking vWGT with pugs back in the day. One time when it was a pledge, I got it as a random. It was clear that it was taking a long time to kill the crematorial guards. I was pretty sure we would struggle later on if the crematorial guards were causing so many problems. For over a half hour, our attempts at the Planar Inhibitor were in vain. We disbanded. My next random queue ended up as vWGT again. This group just melted the crematorial guards and also just melted The Planar Inhibitor. If I had bailed on the group when they where stuggling to kill non-bosses in a timely manner, I could have saved 40 minutes. I have no problem with spending that 40 minutes if we actually finish the content.

There are times when DPS is too low to outpace boss self-heals and manage adds. Then one person drops and gets replaced and all is fine. Or no one is willing to be the one to quit and I just politely cut bait, probably making up an excuse for why I can't continue.

I also remember a vet pug when the DPS was horrid on the engine guardian such that we couldn't handle the adds. I would stack them, but they would just laugh at the damage until they started killing. The healer bailed and was replaced with a Sorc healer. This made me very happy because I expected the sorc would bring more dps. We kill the Engine Guardian with ease.

You see both sides? First of all none of this low dps stuff applies. In the first case dps was fine, and in second case no mobs were even fought he just started kicking people or telling them to get out.

Second and much more importantly, I am not complaining about these guys "losing faith in the group." I tank pugs too and yeah of course if folks are underperforming sometimes I leave. The only thing I'm complaining about is what in my mind amounts to bullying.

It isn't bullying. People like to slap 'bullying' on to everything. It might be a bit confrontational, but it is a single interaction where someone just states what they are willing to do in a take-it-or-leave-it manner. Bullying IS a big problem. This is NOT a problem at all apart from if the actually communication from the tank is such that it is against the terms of service. Saying "I am not going to run this with this healer because I don't think we can clear it with them" is definitely not bullying. Especially when the other 3 can kick the tank.

My point is that after a while, people lose patience with giving people a chance and wasting 30 minutes to get nowhere. You might say that if they don't want that risk, don't PUG--but that would be misguided. Why would that be misguided? Because there is already a shortage of tanks pugging. That would lead to even longer waits for DPS or even more fake tanks.

No one player can kick a group member. If you get one of those tanks, feel free to kick them or let them walk. As a tank who puts up with questing being annoying due to the amount of time it takes to kill trash mobs that have zero chance of killing me, I can understand why a tank might now be willing to also waste their time in the group content that they tried to optimize for. I personally prefer to give it a try, but I also rarely do pledges these days unless it is an alt that hit level 45.

Now if we were talking about a normal dungeon or a base game dungeon, I would 100% be against the tank.

Edit: I don't understand why you fixed on the example being about dps. The point is that inadequate companions can make clearing close ot impossible.

Dracane · April 2020

I never found this dungeon to be particularly difficult. I have pugged it many times.
Things like Moonhunter Keep bring me true dread.

MaxJrFTW · April 2020

From your point of view it brings out the jerks. From their point of view it brings out the worst players this game has to offer.

Vildebill · April 2020

Since I know how frustrating it is to queue as a tank and get two damage dealers that do 15k DPS combined I can somewhat understand the tank's frustration.

My solution though is to not queue dungeons as tank anymore. Feels like a more solid tactic than getting grey hair and bashing people.

thorwyn · April 2020

Zed:
Bring out the JErk.

Maynard:
But the Jerk's sleeping.

Zed:
Well, I guess you're gonna have to go wake him up now, won't you?

Banana · April 2020

If ya a bit ***. Don't attempt a DLC dungeon. I've never done one

Elrond87 · April 2020

yep, i tanked in a dungeon died couple times and they called me all sorts of names and left, people hey what a bunch of ..

Jessy1981 · April 2020

The average Eso player is not an op gamer nor someone who spends hours on target dummy or studying mechanics. This is common knowledge. So when you pug you can get lucky and get an op player who though bored why not or you get the average eso player. So being rude is in my opinion just a personal flaw and just compensation for personal dismay. The difficulty of the dungeon is no excuse whether it is fungal 1 or frostfault. If you don’t wanna try a dungeon with randoms do not que rudeness has no excuse. I notice that the lock-in also brings out some frustration but please don’t take it out on others since we are all struggling. So if you when you que for random vet just know that if you get a dlc there is chance that you might not finish or that it takes a while.

worrallj · April 2020

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I can see both sides on this.

We should all talk to one another with respect when Pugging. Even when we are voting to kick, we can do it without making it personal. I also believe we should not expect anything close to a speed run pugging.

It often isn't hard to get a decent idea if a group will be able to clear a dungeon early on. As a tank, there have been times when on the first trash we faced I realized the DPS would not be enough to clear the dungeon. I continued to the first boss to give others a chance, but that was a disaster. I respectfully told the group it wasn't going to happen and I ended up leaving.

I remember tanking vWGT with pugs back in the day. One time when it was a pledge, I got it as a random. It was clear that it was taking a long time to kill the crematorial guards. I was pretty sure we would struggle later on if the crematorial guards were causing so many problems. For over a half hour, our attempts at the Planar Inhibitor were in vain. We disbanded. My next random queue ended up as vWGT again. This group just melted the crematorial guards and also just melted The Planar Inhibitor. If I had bailed on the group when they where stuggling to kill non-bosses in a timely manner, I could have saved 40 minutes. I have no problem with spending that 40 minutes if we actually finish the content.

There are times when DPS is too low to outpace boss self-heals and manage adds. Then one person drops and gets replaced and all is fine. Or no one is willing to be the one to quit and I just politely cut bait, probably making up an excuse for why I can't continue.

I also remember a vet pug when the DPS was horrid on the engine guardian such that we couldn't handle the adds. I would stack them, but they would just laugh at the damage until they started killing. The healer bailed and was replaced with a Sorc healer. This made me very happy because I expected the sorc would bring more dps. We kill the Engine Guardian with ease.

You see both sides? First of all none of this low dps stuff applies. In the first case dps was fine, and in second case no mobs were even fought he just started kicking people or telling them to get out.

Second and much more importantly, I am not complaining about these guys "losing faith in the group." I tank pugs too and yeah of course if folks are underperforming sometimes I leave. The only thing I'm complaining about is what in my mind amounts to bullying.

It isn't bullying. People like to slap 'bullying' on to everything. It might be a bit confrontational, but it is a single interaction where someone just states what they are willing to do in a take-it-or-leave-it manner. Bullying IS a big problem. This is NOT a problem at all apart from if the actually communication from the tank is such that it is against the terms of service. Saying "I am not going to run this with this healer because I don't think we can clear it with them" is definitely not bullying. Especially when the other 3 can kick the tank.

My point is that after a while, people lose patience with giving people a chance and wasting 30 minutes to get nowhere. You might say that if they don't want that risk, don't PUG--but that would be misguided. Why would that be misguided? Because there is already a shortage of tanks pugging. That would lead to even longer waits for DPS or even more fake tanks.

No one player can kick a group member. If you get one of those tanks, feel free to kick them or let them walk. As a tank who puts up with questing being annoying due to the amount of time it takes to kill trash mobs that have zero chance of killing me, I can understand why a tank might now be willing to also waste their time in the group content that they tried to optimize for. I personally prefer to give it a try, but I also rarely do pledges these days unless it is an alt that hit level 45.

Now if we were talking about a normal dungeon or a base game dungeon, I would 100% be against the tank.

Edit: I don't understand why you fixed on the example being about dps. The point is that inadequate companions can make clearing close ot impossible.

You have a point this doesn't qualify for the modern clinical definition of bullying. I meant more in the classic sense of someone being a bully.

And again I am not complaining about these guys "losing faith in the group." I tank pugs too and yeah of course if folks are underperforming sometimes I leave. It's missing the point to summarize the behavior I described as simply saying "I am not going to run this with this healer because I don't think we can clear it with them." These guys were insulting and treating people like tools. That's the problem, not that they did or didn't want to put in time with a group that may or may not have been under performing.

Haquor · April 2020

I think its interesting that you complimented the tanks for being 'honestly quite good' then said with the first you didnt defeat a boss and the second you disnt even start the dungeon.