How can the game be made more accessible to people with some sort of disability? - for weaving.

Knowledge · April 2020

A lot of players tend to have issues with weaving and the issue can't simply be overcome by practice. Some players happen to have disabilities and this leaves a large portion of the game inaccessible to those individuals. Weaving has become essential to progress to high DPS numbers in ESO. In some cases this can also be due to ping.

What could be done to resolve this issue? How would you rectify this problem to make the game more accessible as a few other MMORPGs have?

Also, why have an animation if we're meant to cancel it in the first place.

ATreeGnome · April 2020

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

Drako_Ei · April 2020

That is the exact reason there is a normal and veteran mode

Coppes · April 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

FakeFox · April 2020

1. Weaving is not required to clear ANY content in the game. Yes, weaving is essential for top end DPS, but top end DPS is not required outside of basically two achievements at the moment, those being Godslayer and the related meta achievement.

2. High ping does not make weaving impossible unless it is so high that you can not play mechanics either. Otherwise me and many other player would not be able parse on the PTS.

The lack of understanding for the game you are showing with post after post is absolutely astonishing. I am really wondering what you are trying to achieve or if you are just rolling at this point.

ATreeGnome · April 2020

Coppes wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

Probably because very few people who do have a good rotation, gear, and a solid understanding of mechanics opt to not light attack weave, let alone form a guild specifically of like minded individuals and then record themselves doing non-light-attack-weave vet HM runs. That doesn't change the fact that you can mathematically pull sufficient DPS without light attack weaving to clear every DPS check in the game, aside from maybe Navi HM, with room to spare. The DPS checks in vMoL and vHoF were clearable at a time when top end DPS was 25-35k. VAS +2 and vCR +3 can be cleared with similar DPS if you are willing to adapt your strategies and take the extra time.

ValueDrift · April 2020

Weaving requires about one LA+skill input per second, it's about timing more than anything, it doesn't require speed or whatever else people might think it requires. The game is already as accessible as a game with real-time combat can be.

edit:

And as others stated, it is not a necessity to complete content. You could get above vet-pug average DPS while never using a single light attack, if you do everything else right.

Opalblade · April 2020

They could add some kind of alternate method of weaving for those people instead of slowing down combat for everyone. I know a guy in another MMO who only has one functioning hand, but he doesn't go around demanding that everyone else be forced to play with one hand just because he has to.

FakeFox · April 2020

Coppes wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

If I would ask people to do a no weaving vet hardmode at 7am they would probably call me an ambulance. But I quickly did a 21mil parse, not optimized, specifically not for playing without weaving. Still got 45k+, should be enough for getting most HMs done easiely and you can certainly get another 10-15k if you really optimize for it.

MorganaLaVey · April 2020

Coppes wrote: »

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

No offense, but wy would anyone create a video like this anyway ? most (probably all) non LA waever do Raids very casualy, so wy would they uploade there 3h vHoF run with 50 wipes on YT ? just to show that it is possible while its realy is not a secret? -and not even that uncommon

colossalvoids · April 2020

Weaving is not essential for clears, most people that don't do it also can't into basic mechanics, group work or adapting to new environments.

Plus if people really have physical problems with weaving there is a huge chance they do it wrong (depends on an issue). You do not button mash, you do one or two timed clicks at max to be efficient. But again, you don't really need to weave if you just can't, focus on other aspects of your performance instead. Heavy attack builds are also an option, but i saw not that much players doing it actually well in content.

Mindcr0w · April 2020

The answer is simple. Basically what has been suggested elsewhere by people more knowledgeable than myself many times.

Nerf LA damage somewhat. (NOT the huge 78% nerf Zos wanted to)

Buff HA damage somewhat.

Add small resource gain to LA.

Keep high HA resource gain.

Buff ability damage somewhat.

The top remains at the top, everyone below the top is at least somewhat better than they were. There is still a skill gap, and there should be one as the best players should get the best results, it just isn't as wide of a gap as it has been.

Septimus_Magna · April 2020

This rotation is very easy and deals enough dps to clear 99% of ESO's content.

https://xynodegaming.com/easysorc/

relentless_turnip · April 2020

It isn't at all necessary to clear most content...
And unfortunately you can't adjust things for a small portion of the community.
There is easier content for people that can't participate in harder content.

Unfortunately they can't make it possible for someone in a wheelchair to compete in a running race, but they can and have made race's for people in wheelchairs.

Anyone with a disability has my greatest sympathy, but most people I know with such issues don't want anything adjusted for them and any effort to do so only emphasizes their situation.

Mindcr0w · April 2020

This rotation is very easy and deals enough dps to clear 99% of ESO's content

.

It is, and it does.

The issue is that for any videogame, and for MMO's in particular, the majority of the people dedicated enough to register forum accounts and read/post on the forums regularly are amongst the top 1% of "hardcore" players.

Sure there are your n00bs asking questions, and your particularly opinionated casuals, but for the most part a particular videogame's forums are mostly going to attract its most hardcore players.

99% isn't going to be good enough for much of this crowd.

And so we have situations where the majority of forum posters consider something like LA weaving to be a no brainer, but the majority of players can't pull it off successfully. And that's if they are even aware of it.

If you spend time on the forums and mainly interact in game with other "hardcores" you'd think LA weaving is just a thing most people do.

I guarantee it isn't.

I'm not bashing LA weaving as a game mechanic. I'm advocating for the understanding of bias. For perspective.

Those who LA weave flawlessly, or even just very well are the minority. Reading the forum you'd think otherwise, but that doesn't represent reality very well.

mocap · April 2020

you can stick to heavy attack build (DK, pet sorc). You don't need LA to do pretty good DPS.

Though your state about "disabilities" coherent with hard mechanics too. Player who can't weave LAs, probably can't respond to fast paced vet hm mechanics as well. No offence.

Ohtimbar · April 2020

No solution will ever be implemented if left to the whims of the vocal minority who wish to maintain the status quo.

Sanguinor2 · April 2020

Those People that cannot or do not want to do light attack weaving can simply use a heavy attack build+rotation. They can do well enough to clear nearly all Content. The Problem is tho that apparently many People are not actually interested to look up a build or dont even know their Damage is completely garbage.
We Need some way ingame that teaches People how dealing Damage actually works. If the importance of proper builds and rotations aswell as stats like pen, resource scaling of abilities etc. were actually taught ingame People will very likely be better off. They might actually look for builds that suit them. Or even make them themselves, but that actually requires knowing what makes a good build for what Situation.

Alucardo · April 2020

Knowledge wrote: »

A lot of players tend to have issues with weaving and the issue can't simply be overcome by practice. Some players happen to have disabilities and this leaves a large portion of the game inaccessible to those individuals. Weaving has become essential to progress to high DPS numbers in ESO. In some cases this can also be due to ping.

What could be done to resolve this issue? How would you rectify this problem to make the game more accessible as a few other MMORPGs have?

Also, why have an animation if we're meant to cancel it in the first place.

This entire thread sounded like an argument against animation cancelling hidden behind good intentions. My theory was further cemented by the last line. Nice try.

MartiniDaniels · April 2020

Ohtimbar wrote: »

No solution will ever be implemented if left to the whims of the vocal minority who wish to maintain the status quo.

Solution to what? The only problem that exists right now is certain degree of elitism and demands for top end dps not because content requires it, but just to skip as many mechanics as possible. Removing light attack weaving won't fix it in any way, and actually will make it worse. Now if somebody's dps is bad they can always tell something about weaving, lag, bad keyboard etc... with weaving/AC removed there will be only mechanics and ability timings left, i.e. if somebody's dps will be bad this will be 100% caused by laziness or insufficient effort.
So with animation cancelling removed, demands to players will skyrocket and there will be no excuses.

Ohtimbar · April 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

No solution will ever be implemented if left to the whims of the vocal minority who wish to maintain the status quo.

Solution to what? The only problem that exists right now is certain degree of elitism and demands for top end dps not because content requires it, but just to skip as many mechanics as possible. Removing light attack weaving won't fix it in any way, and actually will make it worse. Now if somebody's dps is bad they can always tell something about weaving, lag, bad keyboard etc... with weaving/AC removed there will be only mechanics and ability timings left, i.e. if somebody's dps will be bad this will be 100% caused by laziness or insufficient effort.
So with animation cancelling removed, demands to players will skyrocket and there will be no excuses.

There is a problem, and the devs know it. Many players know it. It has been articulated and debated many times and people either agree or not. I’m here to express my opinions, not to change anyone else’s. This is the internet; everyone is always right, and no one is ever wrong.

I haven’t suggested removing la weaving (or anything, actually). But adjustments need to be made. A loud minority of players have and will push back against any solution. It’s just a simple statement of fact.

XellJarmar · April 2020

FakeFox wrote: »

Coppes wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

If I would ask people to do a no weaving vet hardmode at 7am they would probably call me an ambulance. But I quickly did a 21mil parse, not optimized, specifically not for playing without weaving. Still got 45k+, should be enough for getting most HMs done easiely and you can certainly get another 10-15k if you really optimize for it.

Mate, tried no light attack weaving on the PTS, too. Quite impressive. (2 Selene, 5 Deadly, 5 Red mountain)

FakeFox · April 2020

XellJarmar wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Coppes wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

If I would ask people to do a no weaving vet hardmode at 7am they would probably call me an ambulance. But I quickly did a 21mil parse, not optimized, specifically not for playing without weaving. Still got 45k+, should be enough for getting most HMs done easiely and you can certainly get another 10-15k if you really optimize for it.

Mate, tried no light attack weaving on the PTS, too. Quite impressive. (2 Selene, 5 Deadly, 5 Red mountain)

Stamina Templar is probably the perfect class for not weaving. Tons of DPS from basically one skill and really competitive scaling from sets that do not rely on weaving.

Septimus_Magna · April 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

This rotation is very easy and deals enough dps to clear 99% of ESO's content

.

It is, and it does.

The issue is that for any videogame, and for MMO's in particular, the majority of the people dedicated enough to register forum accounts and read/post on the forums regularly are amongst the top 1% of "hardcore" players.

Sure there are your n00bs asking questions, and your particularly opinionated casuals, but for the most part a particular videogame's forums are mostly going to attract its most hardcore players.

99% isn't going to be good enough for much of this crowd.

And so we have situations where the majority of forum posters consider something like LA weaving to be a no brainer, but the majority of players can't pull it off successfully. And that's if they are even aware of it.

If you spend time on the forums and mainly interact in game with other "hardcores" you'd think LA weaving is just a thing most people do.

I guarantee it isn't.

I'm not bashing LA weaving as a game mechanic. I'm advocating for the understanding of bias. For perspective.

Those who LA weave flawlessly, or even just very well are the minority. Reading the forum you'd think otherwise, but that doesn't represent reality very well.

LA weaving is something that everyone does to a certain extent, perfecting it might be hard but everyone who light attacks in between skills is doing it to some degree. And stop pretending you need this to pull decent dps, its simply not true.

People who cannot weave (due to a disability for example) have the option of running a HA build which (if excecuted correctly) deals more than enough dps for just about anything. They might not get Godslayer but guess what, almost nobody gets that achievement!

Most players cannot clear vet dungeons because they dont take 5 minutes to learn about the mechanics. And when they die they blame LA weaving because they think that will magically increase their dps to 90k so they can skip all the mechanics.

You are right that people on the forum are relatively experienced compared to the general population, you should also trust their opinion that LA weaving is not the root of the issues for casual players.

Mindcr0w · April 2020

And stop pretending you need this to pull decent dps, its simply not true

Nowhere in anything you quoted do I imply that it is needed for decent dps.

Literally the first line in my post is me agreeing that a heavy attack build is sufficient for most content.

you should also trust their opinion that LA weaving is not the root of the issues for casual players

Nor did I imply that it is. 🤔

My point was that successful LA weaving is not as prevalent among the general playerbase as many seem to think it is, and that this creates a skewed view of who is the minority and who is the majority in terms of skill.

Commancho · April 2020

You can play tank or healer and you will always find a team and you don't have to weave...

blkjag · April 2020

You can’t do everything in life either. I want a trip to France but that ain’t gonna happen. So maybe, god slayer just isnt in the cards for you. There are things in this game I know I won’t achieve and I’m ok with that. Know your limit

Sheezabeast · April 2020

Commancho wrote: »

You can play tank or healer and you will always find a team and you don't have to weave...

This is exactly what I do. If someone wants to do more dps too, they can be offhand dps mainhanding heals, Sorc healer is good for that.

ZeroXFF · April 2020

XellJarmar wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Coppes wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

You can clear nearly everything in this game, including most vet HM trials and dungeons, without light attack weaving if you have an otherwise good rotation, build, and do mechanics properly. If you are unable or unwilling to do those things too, normal difficulty exists and provides the same story and comparable gear rewards.

No offense, but I always hear about people clearing vetHMs without AC but I haven’t seen any videos of it.

If I would ask people to do a no weaving vet hardmode at 7am they would probably call me an ambulance. But I quickly did a 21mil parse, not optimized, specifically not for playing without weaving. Still got 45k+, should be enough for getting most HMs done easiely and you can certainly get another 10-15k if you really optimize for it.

Mate, tried no light attack weaving on the PTS, too. Quite impressive. (2 Selene, 5 Deadly, 5 Red mountain)

51k on the 21M dummy? Is that really what you want to use to prove that it's ok to not weave? You won't have even 30k on the 6M dummy with that. That won't be enough DPS for vFH hm, not to mention any trials.

ImmortalCX · April 2020

Its conceivable that there could be an addon that would macro every skill to be LA+skill. The addon would let you set the delay between LA and the skill.

Royaji · April 2020

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Its conceivable that there could be an addon that would macro every skill to be LA+skill. The addon would let you set the delay between LA and the skill.

Addons do not have access to combat inputs so it won't be an addon but a 3rd party macro software. Something that is explicitly prohbited by ToS.