About the new Vampire Rework Passives...

1mirg · March 2020

They are effectively making them the better versions of the Nightblade Class, which makes no sense both lore wise and gameplay wise. Nightblades have always been defined as the following:

"Nightblades are spell casters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents."

Not only that but they are also suppose to have the best mobility in combat as well, especially in stealth. Yet with these passives it's effectively destroying that identity for the class in favor of letting everyone be better at it then they are. If these 3 passives make to live, it'll effectively kill off the remaining Class Identity that Nightblades had left and thus effectively make the class utterly useless. All of their other skills have been given out to everyone else throughout the years and the remaining skills it has left is considered by many to be "subpar"... putting it nicely that is.

If zenimax cares about Class Identity and Nightblade Players at all (which I honestly don't think they do based on there track record) then I plead that they do NOT go through these 3 passive reworks. Instead I suggest doing this:

change Unnatural Movement so there is no invisibility.
remove Dark Stalker completely and replace it with a passive for movement speed passive while not sneaking or riding a mount.
remove sneak and invisibility from Strike from the Shadows passive and add in Weapon Damage.
give a movement speed buff passive while sneaking to Nightblades.
make Cloak a toggle skill that uses either Stamina or Magicka.
also fix cloak so it's not completely useless.

Mindcr0w · March 2020

Dark Stalker has always been there and always been fine.

Thevampirenight · March 2020

Some Tes Vampire strains are shown to be stealthy, Have powers of Invisibility., and skilled with Illusion magic.
Nightblades are not the only one with tool kits involving invisibility its not exclusive and these passives make sense for a vampire.

1mirg · March 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Dark Stalker has always been there and always been fine.

They changed it to "Sneak" when previously it was just "Crouch".
The original passive required you to be in stage 4 in the old vampire system, meaning you'll have to be dealing with a 25% increased damage to fire along side a 75% slower health regen. But now that it's not locked behind that and the other half of the passive is now going to be working 24/7 regardless of it being day or night. It effectively makes it a big enough difference to warrant me asking for it to be removed with the new system in place for vampires in Greymoore.

Thevampirenight · March 2020

1mirg wrote: »

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Dark Stalker has always been there and always been fine.

They changed it to "Sneak" when previously it was just "Crouch".

The original passive required you to be in stage 4 in the old vampire system, meaning you'll have to be dealing with a 25% increased damage to fire along side a 75% slower health regen. But now that it's not locked behind that and the other half of the passive is now going to be working 24/7 regardless of it being day or night. It effectively makes it a big enough difference to warrant me asking for it to be removed with the new system in place for vampires in Greymoore.

Well given vampires to be better at feeding. I say no to that. Because it makes sense Dark Stalker isn't just stage four.

Mindcr0w · March 2020

They changed it to "Sneak" when previously it was just "Crouch".

If it only works in sneak rather than crouch it is arguably less useful now and therefore still fine.

1mirg · March 2020

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well given vampires to be better at feeding. I say no to that. Because it makes sense Dark Stalker isn't just stage four.

hate to break it to you but that's how the passive is currently in the game, infact it's pretty much always worked like that. So, even if you say "no" to it. That's simply how it has always been.

So, I don't know what you're saying "no" to here. As these passives changes while I think they should not be released on live as they currently are based on the information we've been given. Are not going to be in the game until May 18, that's over a month from now.

But again, if they removed that passive and instead changed to an outright speed boos when you aren't sneaking/ riding a mount then it should be fine in my books. Like I said in the OP.

Kittytravel · March 2020

Personally I wish that vampires wouldn't receive the movement penalty removal at all.
I've always felt that fits better on Bosmer; you know... the people that literally spend their entire lives sneaking through trees in a crouched position. Seems like it fits them right on the nose.

The addition of the sprint invisibility seems fine given Vamp lore but game wise it seems like a bad idea if a whole zerg of 10+ people wearing sprint reduction armor just appear from nowhere, murder you and beat you like a group of tax collectors, and then run off to the next location. The main advantage against NB cloak is just... knowing they are still there. Knowing you should still be on guard and all that.

But overall the main issue is that this strips away more of the proposed "class identity" changes that were given so long ago; NB continues to be devalued into just another "adventurer class" with nothing special about it or any qualities it can give that no one else can't supply in better form.

Gilvoth · March 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Dark Stalker has always been there and always been fine.

this ^

i love the sneak passives and everything we both have had and the new changes, i hope nothing changes and it all stays . i need that fast sneak passive.
i need the sneak passive and the invisibility.
and i love the new changes.

Yamenstein · March 2020

1mirg wrote: »

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Dark Stalker has always been there and always been fine.

They changed it to "Sneak" when previously it was just "Crouch".

The original passive required you to be in stage 4 in the old vampire system, meaning you'll have to be dealing with a 25% increased damage to fire along side a 75% slower health regen. But now that it's not locked behind that and the other half of the passive is now going to be working 24/7 regardless of it being day or night. It effectively makes it a big enough difference to warrant me asking for it to be removed with the new system in place for vampires in Greymoore.

Yeah.... Now you still have to be stage 4 and you have to deal with extra fire damage, 100% less health recovery and a higher ability cost.

Night blades still have a cloak that is easier to get with less consequences. So it's fine.

1mirg · March 2020

Yamenstein wrote: »

Yeah.... Now you still have to be stage 4 and you have to deal with extra fire damage, 100% less health recovery and a higher ability cost.

There is no Vamp Stage requirement anymore for that passive. So either you never looked at the image above or your just going by the image I posted showcasing how it currently works in the game.

Here, let me show you again how it works in the new revamped vampire line.

As you can see there is no vamp stage requirement nor is there a requirement of half of the passive only working at nighttime plus they also changed the wording to "sneak" instead. This means that regardless of your vampire stage you'll always have this passive active, meaning the cutback for being stage X vampire does not matter regarding this passive.

You also state that "NBs still have cloak" but when another skillline (that is available to everyone, mind you) is given a series of passives that is essentially the NB class identity and is also given a new version of their staple skill, Cloak, that is somewhat better then there own which to remind you, NB cloak has been broken for a long time now with several of our skills being outright useless due to the developers handing out our skills to everyone throughout the years. Does not make these series of passives "ok" since they are essentially turning everyone into a Nightblade.

If these series of passives go and hit live as they are right now. There will be no reason to play a Nightblade anymore since everyone can effectively play a better version of a Nightblade. This is why these passives need to change and be removed and failure in understanding that proves that you either don't care or want the NBs to have 0 class identity anymore. Either way, i'm done arguing my point as i'm clearly just repeating myself over and over again. Everything I stated in the OP remains unchanged.

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2020

If this goes live, Necro, Warden, Sorc, Templar, DK will be better NB than NB...

Edit:
Nercoblade, Sorcblade, Tempblade (lol that is good one), DKblade...

Thevampirenight · March 2020

1mirg wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well given vampires to be better at feeding. I say no to that. Because it makes sense Dark Stalker isn't just stage four.

hate to break it to you but that's how the passive is currently in the game, infact it's pretty much always worked like that. So, even if you say "no" to it. That's simply how it has always been.

So, I don't know what you're saying "no" to here. As these passives changes while I think they should not be released on live as they currently are based on the information we've been given. Are not going to be in the game until May 18, that's over a month from now.

But again, if they removed that passive and instead changed to an outright speed boos when you aren't sneaking/ riding a mount then it should be fine in my books. Like I said in the OP.

I think I mistyped that. Often do that for some reason, what I meant was no to the OP suggestion to remove it all together.

Lord-Otto · March 2020

Giving vamps a permanent speed bonus like Minor Expedition would be terribly OP. Snares? ROFL. Sprint away from danger? EZ. Have to aim that Dizzying Swing? Good luck with me vamp zooming about. As a wise man once said: "No.".
May I ask what the fuss about the wording change is? "Sneak" is currently the very same as "Crouch". I don't see the problem?

Vevvev · March 2020

I''m more concerned about the ability cost changes at stage 1. I mean I understand it on stages 2-4 but stage 1 shouldn't really have a vampire ability cost decrease or a normal ability cost increase, Unless of course some kind of stage 0 exists but I highly doubt that. Its still a work in progress though but I hope they tweak it since stage one is supposed to be your most "human" form.

katorga · March 2020

The ability cost increases will kill the entire line. That is the kicker.

Otherwise, invisible "after X seconds of sprinting". It will have less impact than you think.

Toggled mist form is cool, depending on how high the magicka drain per second is.

Toggled damage increase is cool, depending on how high the health drain per second is.

My guess is the entire skill line will be deemed "useless" before go live based on the negatives outweighting the positives.

Lole · March 2020

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Some Tes Vampire strains are shown to be stealthy, Have powers of Invisibility., and skilled with Illusion magic.
Nightblades are not the only one with tool kits involving invisibility its not exclusive and these passives make sense for a vampire.

Exactly what I was thinking... when I think of vampires then stuff like dark stealthy and fast creatures.

So that’s also kinda their identity, it’s just pretty similar to nb in general, a nightblade is basicly the Perfect Vampire and the Other way arround xD

Im looking extremely forward to the rework especially the stun for magicka classes will be gorgeous 😋

Xvorg · March 2020

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Some Tes Vampire strains are shown to be stealthy, Have powers of Invisibility., and skilled with Illusion magic.
Nightblades are not the only one with tool kits involving invisibility its not exclusive and these passives make sense for a vampire.

Just Berne Clan... Quarra and Aundae where quite the opposite to stealthy illusionist, while vamps in Oblivion and Volkihar clan were reliant more in the illusion school than in stealth.

The problem is that ZoS created a class based on stealth and illusion and now is stripping down its uniqueness, so, what's the point on having NBs?

Lole · March 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Some Tes Vampire strains are shown to be stealthy, Have powers of Invisibility., and skilled with Illusion magic.
Nightblades are not the only one with tool kits involving invisibility its not exclusive and these passives make sense for a vampire.

Just Berne Clan... Quarra and Aundae where quite the opposite to stealthy illusionist, while vamps in Oblivion and Volkihar clan were reliant more in the illusion school than in stealth.

The problem is that ZoS created a class based on stealth and illusion and now is stripping down its uniqueness, so, what's the point on having NBs?

There is still big differences between a vamp and a nb. Besides the fact that vamp fits into the playstyle of nb. Combined it will be a nice thingy and probably make magblade a decent class again

Xvorg · March 2020

Lole wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Some Tes Vampire strains are shown to be stealthy, Have powers of Invisibility., and skilled with Illusion magic.
Nightblades are not the only one with tool kits involving invisibility its not exclusive and these passives make sense for a vampire.

Just Berne Clan... Quarra and Aundae where quite the opposite to stealthy illusionist, while vamps in Oblivion and Volkihar clan were reliant more in the illusion school than in stealth.

The problem is that ZoS created a class based on stealth and illusion and now is stripping down its uniqueness, so, what's the point on having NBs?

There is still big differences between a vamp and a nb. Besides the fact that vamp fits into the playstyle of nb. Combined it will be a nice thingy and probably make magblade a decent class again

Could you give me an example of those differences?

The combo NB vamp has never been good after clouding swarm was changed into that crappy tele strike. Before that it was amazing. Much of the passives/skills you get as a vamp are already there for a NB

In any case, a combo sorc Vamp, who uses streak and runs seems much better on a vamp for kitting, getting away. Even DKs, the class labelled as "stay your ground" class will get an option to disengage combat with that passive

Irfind · April 2020

1mirg wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Yeah.... Now you still have to be stage 4 and you have to deal with extra fire damage, 100% less health recovery and a higher ability cost.

There is no Vamp Stage requirement anymore for that passive. So either you never looked at the image above or your just going by the image I posted showcasing how it currently works in the game.

Here, let me show you again how it works in the new revamped vampire line.

As you can see there is no vamp stage requirement nor is there a requirement of half of the passive only working at nighttime plus they also changed the wording to "sneak" instead. This means that regardless of your vampire stage you'll always have this passive active, meaning the cutback for being stage X vampire does not matter regarding this passive.

You also state that "NBs still have cloak" but when another skillline (that is available to everyone, mind you) is given a series of passives that is essentially the NB class identity and is also given a new version of their staple skill, Cloak, that is somewhat better then there own which to remind you, NB cloak has been broken for a long time now with several of our skills being outright useless due to the developers handing out our skills to everyone throughout the years. Does not make these series of passives "ok" since they are essentially turning everyone into a Nightblade.

If these series of passives go and hit live as they are right now. There will be no reason to play a Nightblade anymore since everyone can effectively play a better version of a Nightblade. This is why these passives need to change and be removed and failure in understanding that proves that you either don't care or want the NBs to have 0 class identity anymore. Either way, i'm done arguing my point as i'm clearly just repeating myself over and over again. Everything I stated in the OP remains unchanged.

Well thats the only passive i look forward to. Its the only passive usefull for stamblades

and you forget the drawbacks even on vamp stage 1

+5% damage from fire
+X% more cost for non vamp skills (X can change while on PTS)
-10% life regen

Mortiis13 · April 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

[...] The addition of the sprint invisibility seems fine given Vamp lore but game wise it seems like a bad idea if a whole zerg of 10+ people wearing sprint reduction armor just appear from nowhere, murder you and beat you like a group of tax collectors, and then run off to the next location[...]

That looks like a new fun play style for cyro. It's time for more play styles, I'm tired of tank meta. Plus you will feel like a f... Vampire, something that is missing rly hard.
Question is will this be canceedl by dots/direct dmg or will dots be suppressed and how long do u have to sprint, will it activate even if u take dmg or will it reset the timer to get into it. Do u have to sprint to maintain it or can u stand still after it activated.
Before the pts we still can't say anything about it, it could be total garbage and u know zo$ is a master of "killing it".

iCaliban · April 2020

PS to all the Nightblade tears: your abilities stack with the new vampire buffs. Making the stealth playstyle even stronger.

Mortiis13 · April 2020

Health recovery - 5/-15/-30/-60
Fire dmg taken +3/+6/+12/+25
Cost increase +1/+2/+4/+10
Vamp cost decrease - 2/-4/-8/-20
(all in %)

I hope it will look like this at the end of the pts, current numbers, if real, are over the top.

Sahidom · April 2020

The invisibility segment of the Unnatural Movement should be Auto-Stealth with a 50% detection radius reduction. This would effectively grant the same benefits and be incredibly hard to detect via current detection methods.

BaiterOfZergs · April 2020

The thing is it buffs vamp nbs too, stam nbs in particular will be very elusive. You should also expect multiple class changes as well.

Vevvev · April 2020

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

The thing is it buffs vamp nbs too, stam nbs in particular will be very elusive. You should also expect multiple class changes as well.

Yeah but the whole non-vampire ability cost increase will gut all stamina classes in the game attempting to even use vampire. All their skills are magicka based or deal magic damage of some sort.

Xvorg · April 2020

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

The thing is it buffs vamp nbs too, stam nbs in particular will be very elusive. You should also expect multiple class changes as well.

Why do you think a NB will bother becoming vamp having access to cloak? This is not a buff to NBs, it is just robbing their identity and giving it to all othe classes.

ZoS should come up with something very good for NBs just to compensate all the exclusive features they have taken away from them.

Or just delete the class. Currently NBs are just a skin

BaiterOfZergs · April 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

The thing is it buffs vamp nbs too, stam nbs in particular will be very elusive. You should also expect multiple class changes as well.

Why do you think a NB will bother becoming vamp having access to cloak? This is not a buff to NBs, it is just robbing their identity and giving it to all othe classes.

ZoS should come up with something very good for NBs just to compensate all the exclusive features they have taken away from them.

Or just delete the class. Currently NBs are just a skin

You’re looking at it in a vacuum. That’s like saying why use shade if you have cloak or why invest in speed if you have shade. Things play off of each other. Any small scale player and solo player knows how clutch it will be, especially on a solo stam nb. It’s a buff to any player that’s highly mobile and who’s the most mobile ? Nbs.

BaiterOfZergs · April 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

The thing is it buffs vamp nbs too, stam nbs in particular will be very elusive. You should also expect multiple class changes as well.

Yeah but the whole non-vampire ability cost increase will gut all stamina classes in the game attempting to even use vampire. All their skills are magicka based or deal magic damage of some sort.

I don’t expect to be more than 5 percent, at best 10 percent. Plus, many already use NMA they’ll probably just drop that set and pick up something else.

Lole · April 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

The thing is it buffs vamp nbs too, stam nbs in particular will be very elusive. You should also expect multiple class changes as well.

Why do you think a NB will bother becoming vamp having access to cloak? This is not a buff to NBs, it is just robbing their identity and giving it to all othe classes.

ZoS should come up with something very good for NBs just to compensate all the exclusive features they have taken away from them.

Or just delete the class. Currently NBs are just a skin

Imagine becoming Vampire is not only about invisibility lmao... Vampire Identity matters aswell and this rework seems to be one of the good things zos actually did...