An observation and QoL change for nightblades

John_Falstaff · March 2020

I think I'm not the only one who ever experienced the following situation. You have 4 on your grim focus counter, and you're about to weave LA and spectral bow proc, but what happens instead is that you simply refresh your Merciless Resolve duration. Sometimes it happens because LA doesn't connect, and that's likely fair; sometimes, though, it happens for no apparent reason, and even more often when you have high ping to the server.

Observation:

I might be mistaken, but from how it appears to me, the bow proc is very sensitive to the timing between LA and the skill cast being too low; if I weave just a touch too hastily, the risk of refreshing Merciless increases. In high ping especially, I have to introduce a slight extra delay between LA and the bow proc, and wait for LA animation to actually go off (the flash) before I can fire the proc. Once again, I might be mistaken, but I think that what happens under the hood is as follows, timeline-wise:

t1. Light attack event is sent to the server.
t2. Server receives the light attack event.
t3. User makes a skill cast. Client didn't get LA confirmation from server yet, so Merciless refresh is sent to the server.
t4. Server receives Merciless refresh event, and duration of skill is refreshed.
t5. Client receives LA confirmation and Merciless turns into spectral bow proc.

As much as I can guess, the quirk is that the skill won't turn into a bow proc until the server confirmed to the client that LA went through, and it makes the skill sensitive to ping - if it takes a long time for the client to receive the acknowledgement from server, it grows harder to correctly fire the proc every 5th GCD because ping introduces variable and unpredictable latency between LA and changing of the skill into the proc. I find it to be a big disadvantage to NBs with their already finicky rotation.

QoL proposal:

Provided that I'm not wrong in that guesswork, I would very much like to see the server being smarter about handling of skill cast. At the moment t4 on the timeline, the server already has comprehensive information about whether the skill on user's bar is still Merciless, or already a bow proc, because at t2 it already became known whether LA has connected, and server knows it was the 5th LA counted towards the proc. It appears that it would just suffice to, at the moment t3, send a more generic event to server (instead of refresh), and let server decide and respond whether a bow proc was done, or Merciless refresh. It would guarantee a reliable bow proc as long as LA event arrives before skill event (which it should, unless server protocol somehow allows network to reorder events) and let people stay unaffected by ping times.

zvavi · March 2020

Tbh i think thats how most skills should work. Problem is, i don't think thats the vision zos has in mind. I mean, look at the recent block changes, they have clattered server performance to make more confirmations between clients and server, just for things to be smoother on client side. Your suggestion my friend, while i fully agree with it, will make client side less smooth. which looks like is against their agenda.

Now have a counter proposal. If you have 4 stacks of bow, and you sent the light attack before the skill, make the bow animation, and send the server request to use bow proc. in case it fails server will send back command to refresh the buff, with small added appropriate animation. While it looks the same, it will keep animations more consistent on client side, and have less server-client discussions. (Your proposal will make server contact client back every cast after 4th proc, while mine, only when the light attack fails.)

Iskiab · March 2020

How about just making it so light attacking gives a merciless stack and not connecting with it. Simple change and would reduce server calcs.

It would be a large pvp buff and not effect pve.

zvavi · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

How about just making it so light attacking gives a merciless stack and not connecting with it. Simple change and would reduce server calcs.

Against, in pvp it will be mean, hmm, maybe it is ok if it means invisablity gets cancelled, can i please have PvPers from different classes comment on this?

John_Falstaff · March 2020

@zvavi , it's sort of yes and no thing. For one, yes, definitely ZOS wants to make client side smoother. On the other hand, they also declared that they're fighting desyncs between server and client, and what we have at hand right now is none other than a desync: server already knows the skill is a bow proc, while client still thinks it's Merciless. I think it doesn't take a lot of computational power for server to decide which skill cast it is, but it's okay if client tentatively sends bow proc and sometimes gets corrected to play animation for Merciless refresh instead (if LA doesn't connect for instance). I think that visuals can be sorted out in either variant. Most modern games interpolate ahead of server (Overwatch as an example) and if server overrides client's assumption, that's fine, doesn't happen often enough to be visually noticeable.

@Iskiab , it definitely is an option; I think a -lot- of PvP people will cry bloody murder though since NBs will be able to prebuild their burst by just light-attacking into thin air, but yes, maybe if it was taking NBs out of invisibility, or only was possible in combat... maybe. Though I don't think it'll reduce server load, because the server will have to double-check everything anyway - it is a very bad idea to trust the client when it says "I made five LAs and have bow proc ready, honestly". ^^ But I think that server load isn't an issue anyway here because data is right there, in fact it already ought to be checking for server-side grim focus counter state before bow proc goes through. What we have here is just a gimmick of protocol, or so I think - even if server just got LA and counted it to grim focus counter, it still would dutifully receive and perform Merciless refresh, even though it's an internal inconsistency - there cannot be Merciless on user's skill bar if prior LA went through.

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2020

Imho this skill (grim focus) should have no initial cost to activate it. It would simply auto-count stacks from the get-go, when you slot it.

You gain nothing from activating it anyway, (other than NB passive that you get from slotting any NB assassination skill). you have to gather stacks so, you then "pay" (gather stacks) by using light attacks, and then when you accumulate enough stacks, the skill on your bar lights-up, ready to fire the bow (and of course this costs recurses as normal).

Edit:
Some time in the past, this initial cost was justified, as when activated, you had a buff - Minor Brutality if I remember correctly. But ZOS removed the buff, but left the initial cost....

Iskiab · March 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@zvavi , it's sort of yes and no thing. For one, yes, definitely ZOS wants to make client side smoother. On the other hand, they also declared that they're fighting desyncs between server and client, and what we have at hand right now is none other than a desync: server already knows the skill is a bow proc, while client still thinks it's Merciless. I think it doesn't take a lot of computational power for server to decide which skill cast it is, but it's okay if client tentatively sends bow proc and sometimes gets corrected to play animation for Merciless refresh instead (if LA doesn't connect for instance). I think that visuals can be sorted out in either variant. Most modern games interpolate ahead of server (Overwatch as an example) and if server overrides client's assumption, that's fine, doesn't happen often enough to be visually noticeable.

@Iskiab , it definitely is an option; I think a -lot- of PvP people will cry bloody murder though since NBs will be able to prebuild their burst by just light-attacking into thin air, but yes, maybe if it was taking NBs out of invisibility, or only was possible in combat... maybe. Though I don't think it'll reduce server load, because the server will have to double-check everything anyway - it is a very bad idea to trust the client when it says "I made five LAs and have bow proc ready, honestly". ^^ But I think that server load isn't an issue anyway here because data is right there, in fact it already ought to be checking for server-side grim focus counter state before bow proc goes through. What we have here is just a gimmick of protocol, or so I think - even if server just got LA and counted it to grim focus counter, it still would dutifully receive and perform Merciless refresh, even though it's an internal inconsistency - there cannot be Merciless on user's skill bar if prior LA went through.

Well on the magblade end it would be a large pvp buff yea, but that wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.

When fighting a dodge rolly build it’s almost impossible to build stacks. Most magblades hold the stacks and time their burst because merciless is hard to land. It would open up more aggressive playstyles and up magblade damage where they’re behind, plus allow symbiosis to build merciless stacks. Right now it doesn’t because you need to connect with damage to build stacks.

John_Falstaff · March 2020

Well, there are sea of imbalances and I would love to get grim focus buffed (if we're speaking about QoL changes, I'd start small and make it refresh duration on a successful bow proc), but that's a whole different story worth another thread (or several of them in fact).

For now, I would be quite content with this simple QoL fix, because it's a shame that class with probably most complex rotation in the game also suffers from being also probably most sensitive to ping times. And it's very easy to mend without largely affecting the gameplay - just let server treat a merciless that came after 5th LA that counted to grim focus to be what it really ought to be on the user's bar: a bow proc. It should be a minimal impact change.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , maybe this could be relayed to the team, if only for consideration.

Iskiab wrote: »

Well on the magblade end it would be a large pvp buff yea, but that wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.

When fighting a dodge rolly build it’s almost impossible to build stacks. Most magblades hold the stacks and time their burst because merciless is hard to land. It would open up more aggressive playstyles and up magblade damage where they’re behind, plus allow symbiosis to build merciless stacks. Right now it doesn’t because you need to connect with damage to build stacks.

Might be; I wouldn't object, magblades direly need buffs PvP-wise, no question about that. I generally feel that ZOS should take a serious look at the class; lack of group utility, decent healing, cast times on ultimes, it all hurts in both PvP and PvE. So yes, the idea is definitely worth considering. So far, I'm proposing just a minimal fix (that would have to be done in case of your proposal too, anyway) because it's hard to expect big buffs at once. Have to start somewhere.

susmitds · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@zvavi , it's sort of yes and no thing. For one, yes, definitely ZOS wants to make client side smoother. On the other hand, they also declared that they're fighting desyncs between server and client, and what we have at hand right now is none other than a desync: server already knows the skill is a bow proc, while client still thinks it's Merciless. I think it doesn't take a lot of computational power for server to decide which skill cast it is, but it's okay if client tentatively sends bow proc and sometimes gets corrected to play animation for Merciless refresh instead (if LA doesn't connect for instance). I think that visuals can be sorted out in either variant. Most modern games interpolate ahead of server (Overwatch as an example) and if server overrides client's assumption, that's fine, doesn't happen often enough to be visually noticeable.

@Iskiab , it definitely is an option; I think a -lot- of PvP people will cry bloody murder though since NBs will be able to prebuild their burst by just light-attacking into thin air, but yes, maybe if it was taking NBs out of invisibility, or only was possible in combat... maybe. Though I don't think it'll reduce server load, because the server will have to double-check everything anyway - it is a very bad idea to trust the client when it says "I made five LAs and have bow proc ready, honestly". ^^ But I think that server load isn't an issue anyway here because data is right there, in fact it already ought to be checking for server-side grim focus counter state before bow proc goes through. What we have here is just a gimmick of protocol, or so I think - even if server just got LA and counted it to grim focus counter, it still would dutifully receive and perform Merciless refresh, even though it's an internal inconsistency - there cannot be Merciless on user's skill bar if prior LA went through.

Well on the magblade end it would be a large pvp buff yea, but that wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.

When fighting a dodge rolly build it’s almost impossible to build stacks. Most magblades hold the stacks and time their burst because merciless is hard to land. It would open up more aggressive playstyles and up magblade damage where they’re behind, plus allow symbiosis to build merciless stacks. Right now it doesn’t because you need to connect with damage to build stacks.

It will be OP on stamblade as stamblades generally take longer to gain stacks with melee LAs in PvP unless they pre-emptively fill the stacks with Bow LA/HAs before committing to a fight and as such hold it more than magblades. Depending on build, stamblades can get Bow Proc tooltip close to 40k while still having high penetration without having to go glass cannon. It would effectively allow certain specs to one shot by starting fight out of stealth with Bow procs.

susmitds · March 2020

ZOS should make the fifth LA check to be client-side. The first four LA checks need to be server side to prevent abuse.

brandonv516 · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

How about just making it so light attacking gives a merciless stack and not connecting with it. Simple change and would reduce server calcs.

It would be a large pvp buff and not effect pve.

As long as it can't be preloaded before combat then it would be fair. I like the idea though - very simple request.

kaithuzar · March 2020

What’s a nightblade, is that a new class?

Langeston · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

How about just making it so light attacking gives a merciless stack and not connecting with it. Simple change and would reduce server calcs.

It would be a large pvp buff and not effect pve.

Actually, what I would like is for any LA or damage ability that you land to give you one stack, at a maximum of one stack per GCD. For some reason it seems like LAs connect less frequently than my skills — almost as if the hit-box is smaller for them. In any case, a small change like this would be a solid QoL upgrade since I'd most likely be able to get a stack every GCD in which I'm attacking.

Iskiab · March 2020

Langeston wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

How about just making it so light attacking gives a merciless stack and not connecting with it. Simple change and would reduce server calcs.

It would be a large pvp buff and not effect pve.

Actually, what I would like is for any LA or damage ability that you land to give you one stack, at a maximum of one stack per GCD. For some reason it seems like LAs connect less frequently than my skills — almost as if the hit-box is smaller for them. In any case, a small change like this would be a solid QoL upgrade since I'd most likely be able to get a stack every GCD in which I'm attacking.

This is a great idea. Remove light attacks from the equation entirely, and it wouldn’t let people preload for burst if it’s an stamblade issue.

Would it be OP if buffing and healing built stacks? I’m not sure.

Only downside is technically you can use the 5th LA to hit merciless in pve (lag permitting) so 5 abilities would be a nerf for those who’s lag permits them to optimize magblade dps. Merciless every 5 abilities is one of those things that’s supposed to be possible but only some can pull off.

John_Falstaff · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

How about just making it so light attacking gives a merciless stack and not connecting with it. Simple change and would reduce server calcs.

It would be a large pvp buff and not effect pve.

Actually, what I would like is for any LA or damage ability that you land to give you one stack, at a maximum of one stack per GCD. For some reason it seems like LAs connect less frequently than my skills — almost as if the hit-box is smaller for them. In any case, a small change like this would be a solid QoL upgrade since I'd most likely be able to get a stack every GCD in which I'm attacking.

This is a great idea. Remove light attacks from the equation entirely, and it wouldn’t let people preload for burst if it’s an stamblade issue.

Would it be OP if buffing and healing built stacks? I’m not sure.

Only downside is technically you can use the 5th LA to hit merciless in pve (lag permitting) so 5 abilities would be a nerf for those who’s lag permits them to optimize magblade dps. Merciless every 5 abilities is one of those things that’s supposed to be possible but only some can pull off.

It is a thought for buffing NB, but I think it's orthogonal to the problem from the topic, because, even if -skills- were able to add to Grim Focus counter, then it wouldn't remove the issue at hand - one that makes it hard to make spectral bow proc every 5th GCD, precisely because on 5th GCD, the only event before the proc is done is a light attack. Problem is not that LA may not connect during four previous GCDs (it's another kind of problem, rather), but that on 5th GCD, grim focus counter ends up desynced between server and client.

Langeston · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

This is a great idea. Remove light attacks from the equation entirely, and it wouldn’t let people preload for burst if it’s an stamblade issue.

Would it be OP if buffing and healing built stacks? I’m not sure.

Only downside is technically you can use the 5th LA to hit merciless in pve (lag permitting) so 5 abilities would be a nerf for those who’s lag permits them to optimize magblade dps. Merciless every 5 abilities is one of those things that’s supposed to be possible but only some can pull off.

What I meant was I'd like if Light Attack OR damage skills added to the counter. That way, if you're LA weaving, you have a better chance of getting a stack every GCD. (But you couldn't "double dip," you are limited to getting 1 stack per GCD.) Basically, if you land damage with a LA OR direct damage attack, you get a stack. It'd still be more difficult to proc than Frags, so the magsorc brigade shouldn't have a problem with it. Buffs or healing probably shouldn't count, unless you are LA weaving while casting. Although that's exactly how Frags works, isn't it. Oh, to have magsorc problems...

John_Falstaff wrote: »

It is a thought for buffing NB, but I think it's orthogonal to the problem from the topic, because, even if -skills- were able to add to Grim Focus counter, then it wouldn't remove the issue at hand - one that makes it hard to make spectral bow proc every 5th GCD, precisely because on 5th GCD, the only event before the proc is done is a light attack. Problem is not that LA may not connect during four previous GCDs (it's another kind of problem, rather), but that on 5th GCD, grim focus counter ends up desynced between server and client.

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

John_Falstaff · March 2020

Langeston wrote: »

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

You can weave four -any- skills, until you have four on grim focus counter, and then, your 5th weave will fire spectral bow (so your bow is 5th, not 6th skill cast). That's how it is meant to be happening: your weave is LA (which adds 1 to four on the counter, turning skill into spectral bow proc), and second part of the weave ends up being that bow fired. So, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+bow, and so on.

The whole issue described in this thread is that client, as it is now, must first receive LA confirmation from server before the skill actually -becomes- bow proc, that makes this 5th weave very unstable and sensitive to ping. If you weave too fast in high ping, you'll end up refreshing Merciless.

Langeston · March 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

You can weave four -any- skills, until you have four on grim focus counter, and then, your 5th weave will fire spectral bow (so your bow is 5th, not 6th skill cast). That's how it is meant to be happening: your weave is LA (which adds 1 to four on the counter, turning skill into spectral bow proc), and second part of the weave ends up being that bow fired. So, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+bow, and so on.

The whole issue described in this thread is that client, as it is now, must first receive LA confirmation from server before the skill actually -becomes- bow proc, that makes this 5th weave very unstable and sensitive to ping. If you weave too fast in high ping, you'll end up refreshing Merciless.

Huh. I must have been weaving too fast then, because I couldn't even get that to work on a training dummy in my home.

Iskiab · March 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

You can weave four -any- skills, until you have four on grim focus counter, and then, your 5th weave will fire spectral bow (so your bow is 5th, not 6th skill cast). That's how it is meant to be happening: your weave is LA (which adds 1 to four on the counter, turning skill into spectral bow proc), and second part of the weave ends up being that bow fired. So, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+bow, and so on.

The whole issue described in this thread is that client, as it is now, must first receive LA confirmation from server before the skill actually -becomes- bow proc, that makes this 5th weave very unstable and sensitive to ping. If you weave too fast in high ping, you'll end up refreshing Merciless.

To add to this, you also need to be point blank range. In pve magblade is a pure melee class, the damage is actually the lowest of all range classes if you’re at range.

Take away merciless every 5th, soul harvest as an ultimate, etc... and pve dps is pretty low.

John_Falstaff · March 2020

Langeston wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

You can weave four -any- skills, until you have four on grim focus counter, and then, your 5th weave will fire spectral bow (so your bow is 5th, not 6th skill cast). That's how it is meant to be happening: your weave is LA (which adds 1 to four on the counter, turning skill into spectral bow proc), and second part of the weave ends up being that bow fired. So, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+bow, and so on.

The whole issue described in this thread is that client, as it is now, must first receive LA confirmation from server before the skill actually -becomes- bow proc, that makes this 5th weave very unstable and sensitive to ping. If you weave too fast in high ping, you'll end up refreshing Merciless.

Huh. I must have been weaving too fast then, because I couldn't even get that to work on a training dummy in my home.

Try introducing slight delay. I usually do this weave with LA and then bow proc as soon as I see the flash of light attack - I think this animation only fires upon server response; but granted, sometimes it's hard to see. After some practice, you can fire bow every 5th weave - precisely how it's meant to be fired - but it's still very finicky when you have ping fluctuations, when your trial/dungeon instance is lagging and so on, and so forth. And that's basically what I'm asking to address by making server interpret skill cast in proper way, as it's supposed to be interpreted.

John_Falstaff · March 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

You can weave four -any- skills, until you have four on grim focus counter, and then, your 5th weave will fire spectral bow (so your bow is 5th, not 6th skill cast). That's how it is meant to be happening: your weave is LA (which adds 1 to four on the counter, turning skill into spectral bow proc), and second part of the weave ends up being that bow fired. So, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+bow, and so on.

The whole issue described in this thread is that client, as it is now, must first receive LA confirmation from server before the skill actually -becomes- bow proc, that makes this 5th weave very unstable and sensitive to ping. If you weave too fast in high ping, you'll end up refreshing Merciless.

To add to this, you also need to be point blank range. In pve magblade is a pure melee class, the damage is actually the lowest of all range classes if you’re at range.

Take away merciless every 5th, soul harvest as an ultimate, etc... and pve dps is pretty low.

Can't even think of what will happen when light attacks - bread and butter of NBs - will get nerfed in addition, but... that's already another woe deserving own thread.

Nightblade rotation is complex enough already and not rewarded by damage advantage; I'd be grateful if they, just to begin some change towards better, made it at least less glitchy and ping-dependent.

Langeston · March 2020

OK, I just reread the OP and yes, my suggestion had nothing to do with what you were talking about, lol. I do still think that it would be a welcome improvement that would dovetail nicely with what you are suggesting. I was looking at this from more of a PVP standpoint, and since landing LAs in BGs is considerably more difficult than in PVE, that's where my mind went directly to.

Iskiab · March 2020

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Wait, you can fire Assassin's will ON the 5th stack? I just tried that (LA weaving with Swallow Soul 4 times then LA weaving Merciless) and it just re-cast Merciless every time. Am I misunderstanding?

You can weave four -any- skills, until you have four on grim focus counter, and then, your 5th weave will fire spectral bow (so your bow is 5th, not 6th skill cast). That's how it is meant to be happening: your weave is LA (which adds 1 to four on the counter, turning skill into spectral bow proc), and second part of the weave ends up being that bow fired. So, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+skill, LA+bow, and so on.

The whole issue described in this thread is that client, as it is now, must first receive LA confirmation from server before the skill actually -becomes- bow proc, that makes this 5th weave very unstable and sensitive to ping. If you weave too fast in high ping, you'll end up refreshing Merciless.

To add to this, you also need to be point blank range. In pve magblade is a pure melee class, the damage is actually the lowest of all range classes if you’re at range.

Take away merciless every 5th, soul harvest as an ultimate, etc... and pve dps is pretty low.

Can't even think of what will happen when light attacks - bread and butter of NBs - will get nerfed in addition, but... that's already another woe deserving own thread. Nightblade rotation is complex enough already and not rewarded by damage advantage; I'd be grateful if they, just to begin some change towards better, made it at least less glitchy and ping-dependent.

Less glitchy and ping dependent is my only concern really.

I might be the only one who isn’t worried about the LA damage reduction lol. I mean it’ll hit everyone equally in pve, maybe magplar’s a bit more because of that LA damage buff but whatever. PvE types won’t like any damage reduction because it will mean doing mechanics, but that’s PvE in general in ESO.

In PvP everyone weaves who’s at a decent level, tanky types might be an issue post patch. Haven’t tested it to tell.