Let's help ZOS figure this out. Skill gap thread.

Kittytravel · March 2020

I'd say the better way of doing this is spread disposition of damage LAs do into skills across the board and reducing the damage dealt through LA.

This means that to continue achieving that 90k DPS you still need to weave beautifully; but maybe lower level players don't pull such bad DPS since their skills now do a bit more damage.

More anything though LA weaving as strong as it is generally isn't my biggest fear with new players; it's just newer players not even using multiple skills at all that isn't taught. They should be taught about bar swapping, using DoTs to get higher damage, etc. LA is nice but I see people just straight spamming Flurry because that's all it took in Overland and no one taught them otherwise.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · March 2020

Rukia541 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?

Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.

I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

ngl, the concept as a whole is handled very oddly in the official's eyes, like it definitely debuted as a bug/glitch but it was fine so they left it there but then continued to just leave it as is while making vContent harder. It's honestly the reason the community is massively divided as it is.

I agree. It was a weird flex to base vdifficulty around assuming players were weaving. That has caused a ton of grief down the line. If they had just nipped the whole thing in the bud years ago and created a global cooldown that can only be overridden by blocking, or made it so that cancelling an animation early cancelled the damage too, they would have a much healthier game today.

I used to try and get my friends to play ESO, but they'd get to endgame and I'd explain weaving and they'd quit. Like, no normal sane young adult with a life and a job is into the idea of weaving - no one.

So eso should just be like every cookie cutter WoW clone? Nice anecdotal lie at the end there mixed with some juicy hyperbole.

As if literally left clicking between skill usage would be the reason to drive someone away. This change doesnt remove weaving by the way..lmao

Why fix something if it ain't broke? Most people like WoW mechanically, it's just the graphics / story / some of the features they've added that have been unpopular in recent years. Look at how well WoW classic is doing. ZOS tried to reinvent the wheel by not having a global CD and inadvertently created some sort of weird cookie clicker-esque combat that rewards rapid, skittish button pressing on top of normal MMO mechanics.

And that wasn't an exaggeration. Every friend I've convinced to play ESO has quit shortly after reaching endgame. They regarded weaving as a dumb chore that didn't really add anything to their enjoyment of the game, and because their dps was always relatively low as a result of not weaving, they eventually exhausted the content they were able to do and stopped playing.

I have NEVER explained weaving to a person IRL and had them react with "sounds like a fun mechanic!" or "that should be in more games!". It's normally a lot of winces and the phrase "garbage game" being thrown around.

JumpmanLane · March 2020

Gilvoth wrote: »

this thread is based on rude and forward.
this is not our position to push ideas and opinions on how they should run their game.
its none of our business.
let the developers do what they do best, it is their game to develop and the more people keep forcing their opinions on the developers the worse things will get for us.

Yeah, it’s the devs game and they can do exactly whatever they want with it; but the second they make it not fun or mess the game up, I ain’t playing it and I damn sure ain’t PAYING them to play it. I’ll pay and play something else.

Stevie6 · March 2020

I don’t think this PTS update is going to help anyone except for widening the gap even further. The devs will have to go back in time to see what really worked for low apm players like myself. There was a time when a certain play style actually worked for me as well as others pre Morrowind. It was the petsorc. It had everything from damage, sustain, heals and shields. Didn’t have Iceheart at that time but would have made it a great setup (pre nerf necromancy and ms sets). A lot of sets before nerfs came out were great. This is what the Devs need to look at. Don’t fix what isn’t broken...the devs killed the game at that point.

They could have just nerfed damage and shields while doing pvp but no..they had to screw up pve as well. Not blaming pvpers ( I use NB in Cyrodiil) but it could have been handled differently back then. Instead, it was nerf, nerf,nerf, never ending nerfs. The devs need to look at the past to fix the future.

LA leave the damage alone but with sustain. HA needs more damage ..a lot more damage and sustain. HA on pts feels lackluster. If the devs want to raise the floor, then they are going to add a friggin ton of damage to skills or sets. That’s if they want low apm players around the 30k dps range. If not, oh well. Good luck. I just see the whole thing as a nothingburger.

iaminc · March 2020

No point helping ZoS to figure out anything.

They don’t listen to the players , not even those on the PTS.

Sanctum74 · March 2020

It’s funny to hear people say they need a test dummy or heaven forbid have to use a guide on the internet. Many of us here from the beginning didn’t have any of that available to us and we made out just fine.

There are more resources available to help you then there ever has been in the history of the game. Zos should not be making concessions for people that refuse to use them and won’t practice to get better.

You don’t have to have the highest dps or score to enjoy the game, but if you want to get better there are plenty of tools to help you do so.

Everest_Lionheart · March 2020

I’m in that new player category however I spent probably 12 hours in YouTube and reading other guides before spending 2 hours in the game. Quite simply the game needs to do more to teach us some basics other than here is how to block, here is how to dodge and here is how to attack. Got it? Good luck! Hell I wouldn’t even know about practicing had I not read about it or seen it in a video.

Anyway as with all games skills come with practice. As a new player finally feeling comfortable with the mechanics at 90 hours in game I wouldn’t expect to be of much use in dungeons at this point because I am under geared and under leveled. And forget PvP I would get smoked.

However for top tier players I can somewhat understand the issue. It’s tough when you perfect one skill set and it changes and becomes less effective. But comparatively speaking already knowing the basic mechanics and having a strong skill set in the current system already gives you a leg up on noobies like me. Now some mid tier button masher might get a bit more lucky against you in PvP with the changes but for what it’s worth losing to a lucky player isn’t the end of the world. Still I am willing to bet the skilled players still come out with an overwhelming win rate when all the dust settles.

Just play the game and enjoy it.

naturebased · March 2020

Lets be real here; its simple. New players don’t know or struggle with LA weaving, I do too (my ratio is .5, i think youre supposed to hit .7 or higher). So the way to balance the game more, is buff heavy attack damage, and buff skill damage across the board. When you think about it skills don’t do much more damage than light attacks, but take more effort than just clicking. Could even nerf light attack a bit. High tier players wont notice a difference, and low tier players wont have to worry about weaving and can just spam if they want

Edit: high tier players doing even MORE damage isnt a bad thing. It means a trial group is going to be more accepting to a low tier player because they can be carried to an extent

worrallj · March 2020

I don't understand why having skill gaps is a problem

Rukia541 · March 2020

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Rukia541 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?

Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.

I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

ngl, the concept as a whole is handled very oddly in the official's eyes, like it definitely debuted as a bug/glitch but it was fine so they left it there but then continued to just leave it as is while making vContent harder. It's honestly the reason the community is massively divided as it is.

I agree. It was a weird flex to base vdifficulty around assuming players were weaving. That has caused a ton of grief down the line. If they had just nipped the whole thing in the bud years ago and created a global cooldown that can only be overridden by blocking, or made it so that cancelling an animation early cancelled the damage too, they would have a much healthier game today.

I used to try and get my friends to play ESO, but they'd get to endgame and I'd explain weaving and they'd quit. Like, no normal sane young adult with a life and a job is into the idea of weaving - no one.

So eso should just be like every cookie cutter WoW clone? Nice anecdotal lie at the end there mixed with some juicy hyperbole.

As if literally left clicking between skill usage would be the reason to drive someone away. This change doesnt remove weaving by the way..lmao

Why fix something if it ain't broke? Most people like WoW mechanically, it's just the graphics / story / some of the features they've added that have been unpopular in recent years. Look at how well WoW classic is doing. ZOS tried to reinvent the wheel by not having a global CD and inadvertently created some sort of weird cookie clicker-esque combat that rewards rapid, skittish button pressing on top of normal MMO mechanics.

And that wasn't an exaggeration. Every friend I've convinced to play ESO has quit shortly after reaching endgame. They regarded weaving as a dumb chore that didn't really add anything to their enjoyment of the game, and because their dps was always relatively low as a result of not weaving, they eventually exhausted the content they were able to do and stopped playing.

I have NEVER explained weaving to a person IRL and had them react with "sounds like a fun mechanic!" or "that should be in more games!". It's normally a lot of winces and the phrase "garbage game" being thrown around.

Weaving isn't any different than your typical filler spell in any other MMO, as all MMOs have rotations. So I call BS once again.

I guess you haven't played WoW in recent years but population got so low they don't even release sub numbers anymore, no one really like the current combat because its so static and boring.

Classes are no longer unique, lost most of their spells, operate exactly the same with build resource/spend resource. No longer have freedom of talent choice, can not play your character the way you want. When WoW was popular it had variety and freedom. You know what killed that game? Literally the same thing ZoS is doing, massive changes to classes.

All for casual streamline.. its BAD for MMOs. You need a top and a bottom line, if everyone is the same then what's the point if you can't improve by taking advantage of advanced mechanics? If you can't use even 1% of your prefrontal cortex then you shouldn't be playing games in the first place.

Your friends sound like they should be playing hello kitty instead of ESO

SidraWillowsky · March 2020

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.

I do agree that this shouldn't be the only way to get high DPS. I personally enjoy LA weaving and sitting in front of a dummy practicing, but I'm fully aware that that's not everyone's idea of fun. AND THAT IS OK; I don't think some sort of character judgment should be made against players who dislike it. Different strokes and all. And this is a video game that we all play for fun. No one should have to suffer through something to be able to fully enjoy the game.

That being said... I prefer LA weaving. Why can't there be multiple ways of attaining decent DPS numbers so that a variety of playstyles can be happy? Instead of decimating the current meta, why not just make it so that it's still viable, along with other rotations? I don't get why this seems to be so all-or-nothing for ZOS. Instead of a 78% Nerf to LAs, why can't it be 20% or something? Or add some sort of give and take... The vMA staff could add a substantial amount of LA damage but remove the resource return, or decrease other damage. Not saying that example should be viable because it's the first thing I thought of, but stuff like that...

idk · March 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

First point is that I agree that the fact that ESO lacks a basic developer-maintained Wiki that documents its core mechanics is beyond a travesty.

It is simply outrageous that in 2020 players must literally use the Scientific Method in order to experiment way into understanding the implementations of the combat system.

Second point is simply to ask the question: "What is wrong with having a skill gap?"

I say this as someone who knows that they will never have the Ticktock Tormentor title or Godslayer, etc. And, you know what, I am okay with that. I do not begrudge those who do more DPS than I and I just fundamentally do not understand this perennial fascination by some to bring the highest-end players down to their level.

1. Developers of pretty much every MMORPG are not exactly experts at playing their game. Top players and true theorycrafters easily become more knowledgeable of the game. The only reason for a developer-maintained wiki is because the game is not good enough to attract enough players that would create the content. Devs learn a lot from players. So not so outrageous.

2. Every MMORPG has a skill gap that comes down to both knowledge and APM. So it is normal and common. ESO has always had a much greater skill gap than older combat systems such as WoW and FF14 since our combat is more robust. However, Zos drove a wedge into the skill gap when they buffed LAs so they did more damage than HAs. Before then a player could do quite well with a medium attack weave. While top players easily adapted as they are more skilled, to begin with, the change was considered bad for the game as they saw it pushed down a majority of the player base.

idk · March 2020

TheFM wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...

Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.

Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?

Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.

I never once stepped in front of a parse dummy. And I can weave no issue whatsoever on an xb1 controller. So....yeah. It came from practicing on live targets in cyro. You should not reward players for being lazy.

There were no DPS dummies back in 2014 everyone that weaved basic attacks learned in the field.

YandereGirlfriend · March 2020

idk wrote: »

1. Developers of pretty much every MMORPG are not exactly experts at playing their game. Top players and true theorycrafters easily become more knowledgeable of the game. The only reason for a developer-maintained wiki is because the game is not good enough to attract enough players that would create the content. Devs learn a lot from players. So not so outrageous.

This sounds much more like a rationalization than an actual legitimate justification.

Why must new players be forced to look up ancient Reddit threads in order to find out how DoT damage is calculated (e.g. snapshot vs. dynamic, further, precisely which combat stats are varying in this context?) or to learn about enchantment internal cooldowns, what player actions can proc a poison or an enchantment, do poisons that have an uneven duration (e.g. 6.4 seconds) round up, down or are pro-rated to the tenth of a second, etc.

So much misinformation could be easily dispelled by a simple centralized repository for this sort of information.

Or, if they still insist upon being lazy, simply dump the relevant functions somewhere online and let the community unpack the formulas in order to fully document the mechanics.

It is frankly no wonder that a skill gap exists as seeking answers to basic mechanics questions is, for a new player, about as straightforward as an Indiana Jones quest to find the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Dusk_Coven · March 2020

One of the fundamental problems with ESO is that many things are not intuitive.
IF things were intuitive, you could learn as you go. You wouldn't have to tell someone that "XYZ actually works" because it looks like it should legitimately work and they are trying it already. Rather, people would be telling them, "sorry, that's not a feature but it really should be".
And of course the players have to meet the devs halfway. Like read what the skill you wanted to buy actually does. Which people don't. That's why you have ice staff DPS taunting the boss off the tank.

But a lot of things do not function intuitively in ESO.

Random example:
We're in a dungeon. Rest of the team is in ANOTHER ROOM and out of sight.
I enter a room alone, and there are some monsters. What do they do?
They immediately run INTO THE OTHER ROOM when they couldn't possibly have seen my teammates.

JumpmanLane · March 2020

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I’m in that new player category however I spent probably 12 hours in YouTube and reading other guides before spending 2 hours in the game. Quite simply the game needs to do more to teach us some basics other than here is how to block, here is how to dodge and here is how to attack. Got it? Good luck! Hell I wouldn’t even know about practicing had I not read about it or seen it in a video.

Anyway as with all games skills come with practice. As a new player finally feeling comfortable with the mechanics at 90 hours in game I wouldn’t expect to be of much use in dungeons at this point because I am under geared and under leveled. And forget PvP I would get smoked.

However for top tier players I can somewhat understand the issue. It’s tough when you perfect one skill set and it changes and becomes less effective. But comparatively speaking already knowing the basic mechanics and having a strong skill set in the current system already gives you a leg up on noobies like me. Now some mid tier button masher might get a bit more lucky against you in PvP with the changes but for what it’s worth losing to a lucky player isn’t the end of the world. Still I am willing to bet the skilled players still come out with an overwhelming win rate when all the dust settles.

Just play the game and enjoy it.

No they won’t lol. They’d have been better off weaving light attacks. Heavy attacks ain’t gonna do them 1 lick bit of good against my MagDk. (You MIGHT be too new to realize WHY). And if I run HEAVY armor instead of light lmao. Ball game!

Look. ZOS doesn’t play their game. If they do play it; it’s not at a high level AT ALL. Case in point, these changes ain’t gonna close the skill gap in PvP. Not by a long shot.

Noobs and scrubs shouldn’t be happy with these changes at all. Since skilled players, already running tanky af can add DAMAGE to their builds and drop sustain and weave a lil bit and end up sitting pretty fully win.

mague · March 2020

milllaurie wrote: »

TLDR; teaching a new player to play is a better option than changing the game's core concepts to fit the needs of new players.

Lots of text but you dont get the problem. This is the problem:
external power creep by macro recording devices.

There are only few real low APM's. Handicapped by something. Those are not the problem. Those people adopt and dont try unplayable content. There are only voices for story mode, not easy mode. Everyone else does weave to a certain extend.

ZOS is not stupid and the current PTS is just a proposal for a grown up discussion. As a company i would also try to have one devel base for all my games. So a Skyrim player feels home in ESO and an ESO player feels home in TES VI and the source code is one for many games. Thats clever, not planless. It is entertainment industry, not High Perfomance Centre. Minus guild ball vs. guild ball it is not even esports.

happyhughes2001 · March 2020

The problem I have is, I have no confidence that they can pull this off and the game will be in a better state. The game is in a bad way right now, and every patch/chapter it seems to get worse.

I just can’t understand the constant drastic changes. Imo you can’t continually improve a game when everything changes so often.

I just find this all so frustrating.

Please fix/improve performance before anymore major changes. That’s without all the account problems such as ESO plus not working etc. It’s a total mess at the moment.

Saltisol · March 2020

a

Dusk_Coven · March 2020

mague wrote: »

I have NEVER explained weaving to a person IRL and had them react with "sounds like a fun mechanic!" or "that should be in more games!". It's normally a lot of winces and the phrase "garbage game" being thrown around.

It'd be interesting to have NPCs and monsters perfectly light attack weave and see what players new and old feel about it.

worrallj · March 2020

One thought.... If you close the skill gaps I'd predict that does huge damage to content creators like alcadt, xynode, dottz. The only reason I go to their websites is I'm trying to get better.

TheFM · March 2020

worrallj wrote: »

One thought.... If you close the skill gaps I'd predict that does huge damage to content creators like alcadt, xynode, dottz. The only reason I go to their websites is I'm trying to get better.

Practice makes perfect? BLASPHEMY to these players defending these changes. xD.

Luke_Flamesword · March 2020

Closing the skill gap not means that noobs and elite players will be equal - they always will be better. It's good to not have too much gap because this is still just a game and should be fun even for new players if we want ESO to stay alive. There of course should be some challenge but so much better and interesting is when some thinking and strategy is involved, not just button smashing like some crazy machine with learned software in their brain.

I like and do some animation cancelling, I swap bars and use every all 10 skills in fight. I don't have any perfect rotation, I have of course some habits but I don't have only one, perfect rotation for every situation because it's stupid as hell. I play game for fun, not for smashing buttons like machine. Of course just spamming light attack with only one or two skills used should be uneffective but all this endgame high DPS strategies are madness. We can still have fast paced combat without smashing buttons like crazy in miliseconds. It's RPG for gods sake, not some shooter or racing game so it would be nice to have lesser impact of our agility skills and some more thinking, strategy, right gear and skills etc. Player which don't think and click random buttons should lose, but someone who knows what is doing and have some experience and skill, should be better. Faster players should have of course some advantage, but not so big one.

Of course there will be crying and screaming of some players but this is normal, psychological phenomenon - if someone used to learn a lot and have so much advantage, that he is somekind of elite in some group - he don't have any benefits of this changes and only loses his position of so much better player.

We should look with wider perspective for game - it's big, living environment. There should be room and rewards for hardcore players but they can't be too good because it discourage normal players from gaming and they always like 90% of game population. Without them is no money for ZOS and no game.

I'm not a typical noob, but also not a elitist. I can defeat alone World Boss, I have some decent effects in PVP - BGS and Cyrodiil. I have fun from game and learned a lot so, but I'm in point where it's hard for to be much better, because I don't want to learn fast smashing buttons, always in the same order, because it's boring. I play game for fun, not to learn my subconscious to play without me.

If you like smashing buttons using hardcore practise and body memory - be a freaking pianist. This is enterteiment, not another work. Normal people want to relax after work.

carlos424 · March 2020

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Rukia541 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?

Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.

I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

ngl, the concept as a whole is handled very oddly in the official's eyes, like it definitely debuted as a bug/glitch but it was fine so they left it there but then continued to just leave it as is while making vContent harder. It's honestly the reason the community is massively divided as it is.

I agree. It was a weird flex to base vdifficulty around assuming players were weaving. That has caused a ton of grief down the line. If they had just nipped the whole thing in the bud years ago and created a global cooldown that can only be overridden by blocking, or made it so that cancelling an animation early cancelled the damage too, they would have a much healthier game today.

I used to try and get my friends to play ESO, but they'd get to endgame and I'd explain weaving and they'd quit. Like, no normal sane young adult with a life and a job is into the idea of weaving - no one.

So eso should just be like every cookie cutter WoW clone? Nice anecdotal lie at the end there mixed with some juicy hyperbole.

As if literally left clicking between skill usage would be the reason to drive someone away. This change doesnt remove weaving by the way..lmao

Why fix something if it ain't broke? Most people like WoW mechanically, it's just the graphics / story / some of the features they've added that have been unpopular in recent years. Look at how well WoW classic is doing. ZOS tried to reinvent the wheel by not having a global CD and inadvertently created some sort of weird cookie clicker-esque combat that rewards rapid, skittish button pressing on top of normal MMO mechanics.

And that wasn't an exaggeration. Every friend I've convinced to play ESO has quit shortly after reaching endgame. They regarded weaving as a dumb chore that didn't really add anything to their enjoyment of the game, and because their dps was always relatively low as a result of not weaving, they eventually exhausted the content they were able to do and stopped playing.

I have NEVER explained weaving to a person IRL and had them react with "sounds like a fun mechanic!" or "that should be in more games!". It's normally a lot of winces and the phrase "garbage game" being thrown around.

Nobody likes weaving when they first start doing it. But once you get good at it, it makes you feel like you have accomplished something, your character has progressed, and is stronger for it. People need to understand that sometimes you have to work for something in order to get better/achieve, etc. Not everyone is entitled to be an awesome player just by logging on. Also, no one has to light attack weave in this game if they don’t want to. It seems counterproductive to punish people who want to take the time to learn how to make their characters as strong/efficient as possible. If there is no way to improve, and separate yourself from the casual player, what’s the point?

Tanis-Stormbinder · March 2020

In all likely hood this will happen I like Code65536 Post on the PTS forms:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6671063/#Comment_6671063

barney2525 · March 2020

Just one minor point. You mention that no new player is going watch you tube videos before playing a game. This, at least in my case, is completely incorrect. In any new game I decide to try I watch dozens of 'Beginner guide' videos before even bringing up the game for the first time. I figured out a long time ago that all mmos are not alike. Conceptually, maybe there are a lot of similarities.

but the devil is in the details

IMHO

newtinmpls · March 2020

Muizer wrote: »

@OP I think the subject you raise is worthwhile exploring and you wrote it up nicely.

Problem is, the "skill gap" as raised in the pts patch notes raises a more fundamental issue. It is not saying "ESO is too hard for casuals, so we will make it easier". It really is saying "We (ZoS) do not like that part of the skill gap that is caused by fast clicking". In other words, they are exploring moving the goalposts of what "skilled" means.

Well summed up.

I am NOT in my teens/20's and I am NOT a super dexterous person. My hands and fingers work fine, and I'm not impaired by any medical condition - but I will never ever be anywhere close to a successful "fast twitch" gamer. I cannot do that.

There are some things I can do:

It took me two years to actually "integrate" the idea that if my character needed to be moving in combat (not just "don't stand in red" but in general, move so "they" can't target me easily). Now I do it without really thinking about it. Even in my worst "hair on fire" panic moments - I'm still moving, and sometimes that keeps me alive.

I have a decent understanding of gear. I am not completely a min-maxer, nor am I a therorycrafter but I do enjoy coming up with interesting build combinations that will make my character at least survivable and at most powerful. There is a learning curve for this as well. Also, as I do not care for some parts of the game (cough...cough...Cyrodill); I work on choosing from among the sets I can get/farm myself or afford to buy (and not being a top tier trader, if it's more than hundreds a piece, then it's out).

I am relatively new to MMORPG playing - and the first "PATCH NOTES" were horrifying and I was furious - not because I disliked any particular thing - but because It was CHANGING. I felt like I was just starting to figure things out and the rug was being jerked out from under me. Luckily I had friends who helped explain to me that this is how any MMO will work - things will change and it will not be "the same game" going forward.

And there have been changes. Small aside, the one that has irked me the most was the changing the Redgard light armor. Still peeved about that

And more changes. Lots of them reported to be due to a version of "too many are using THIS, and not enough are using THAT" which is more annoying when I'm on the side of THIS, and more cool when I've already been using THAT and it gets more powerful/workable.

This is the first change that I have seen to address the "clicks per second"/Twitch thing - or as the Patch Notes would have it - Actions Per Min (or something - surely someone will correct me). This means that the theorycrafters will still be cool. The BIS folks will still be cool. The "I get my gear from hard to access [Vet/trials/whatever]" will still be cool.

The folks who will "lose out" will be the folks whose "make or break" skill is fast typing. And they will still be pretty okay.

BXR_Lonestar · March 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.

I do agree that this shouldn't be the only way to get high DPS. I personally enjoy LA weaving and sitting in front of a dummy practicing, but I'm fully aware that that's not everyone's idea of fun. AND THAT IS OK; I don't think some sort of character judgment should be made against players who dislike it. Different strokes and all. And this is a video game that we all play for fun. No one should have to suffer through something to be able to fully enjoy the game.

That being said... I prefer LA weaving. Why can't there be multiple ways of attaining decent DPS numbers so that a variety of playstyles can be happy? Instead of decimating the current meta, why not just make it so that it's still viable, along with other rotations? I don't get why this seems to be so all-or-nothing for ZOS. Instead of a 78% Nerf to LAs, why can't it be 20% or something? Or add some sort of give and take... The vMA staff could add a substantial amount of LA damage but remove the resource return, or decrease other damage. Not saying that example should be viable because it's the first thing I thought of, but stuff like that...

I'd have no problem with them preserving light attack weaving as an intentional build choice. What I object to is that LA weaving/animation cancelling is a foundational DPS mechanic that all DPS characters must learn how to do regardless of build. There's a difference in having to do LA weaving/animation cancelling as a basic foundational DPS mechanic and having a build that is specifically intended to emphasize light attack weaving by design. For instance, if your champion points are skewed towards maximizing light attack damage output and your using Queen's elegance, your build is clearly geared towards getting more damage output from Light Attacks - and in those scenarios, no beef whatsoever with Light Attack weaving. That is how your character was built. But as it currently stands, LA Weaving and animation cancelling is a basic foundational "feature" that's required of any DPS regardless of build if you want to achieve top tier DPS numbers, which IMO, is a mistake, and its the primary cause of frustration for many of the players I play with and that I've encountered over the past 2-3 years of playing this game.

Heimdarm · March 2020

Weaving is neither hard nor easy, it is just not fun. If you can weave easily and you are a master of it, it is not called skill, it's called dexterity and good muscle memory reflexes. A skill is what requires your intelligence as well. Weaving is brainless, repetitive, and irritating key/button pushing. A stupid mechanic for ZOS should get rid of. Easiest solution is to get rid of light attacks and make heavy attacks restore resources again.

idk · March 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. Developers of pretty much every MMORPG are not exactly experts at playing their game. Top players and true theorycrafters easily become more knowledgeable of the game. The only reason for a developer-maintained wiki is because the game is not good enough to attract enough players that would create the content. Devs learn a lot from players. So not so outrageous.

This sounds much more like a rationalization than an actual legitimate justification.

Why must new players be forced to look up ancient Reddit threads in order to find out how DoT damage is calculated (e.g. snapshot vs. dynamic, further, precisely which combat stats are varying in this context?) or to learn about enchantment internal cooldowns, what player actions can proc a poison or an enchantment, do poisons that have an uneven duration (e.g. 6.4 seconds) round up, down or are pro-rated to the tenth of a second, etc.

So much misinformation could be easily dispelled by a simple centralized repository for this sort of information.

Or, if they still insist upon being lazy, simply dump the relevant functions somewhere online and let the community unpack the formulas in order to fully document the mechanics.

It is frankly no wonder that a skill gap exists as seeking answers to basic mechanics questions is, for a new player, about as straightforward as an Indiana Jones quest to find the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Not rationalization at all. Just stating the facts that a dev created and maintained wiki would be second rate at best because they are not the experts on game mechanics.

There is a reason why none of the devs raid at top levels. They do not understand the mechanics as well as top players. You can call lazy all you want to but anyone with solid experience raiding in MMORPGs (ESO and beyond) knows that devs learn a lot about the game from players and theorycrafters. Your argument makes a lot of sense if that fact is ignored.

Let's also remember we want them to actually work on instead of maintaining a second rate wiki. Let's be smart about this.