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Let's help ZOS figure this out. Skill gap thread.
milllaurie
✭✭✭✭
Warning: long post.
After reading the new light/heavy attack concept yesterday I was really angry. Angry not because I hated the concept (well I kinda did) but because the skill gap solution is out there. No need for drastic gameplay changes that will drive veteran players (which pay you money each month) away.
The problem with the skill gap is not that it is hard to press light attack button every second or so, the main problem is NEWCOMMERS DO NOT KNOW THAT THEY SHOULD.
I remember myself trying to do my first 4 man dungeon - me, along with my wife, my brother and his girlfriend were all levels 32-44 when we found The Banished Cells. Yes, we knew the basic concept of roles: we had a healer, 2x damage dealers and a tank. And you know what we were doing? My bro was throwing himself among the npcs and blocking and I was spamming throwing blade while my wife spammed lethal arrow and light attacks. We had to give up our first run and make the lower level healer (lvl32) the team leader so the dungeon scaled to her to complete it (note: this was 2016, before One Tamriel). And of course we were shamed and kicked and called names first times we used dungeon finder to complete pledges. Because we had absolutely no idea what we are doing.
First time in Cyrodiil I was just sneaking around the vast planes with my brother completing cyro delves (they were pretty hard back then for a lvl40 since they were all scaled to v16). My first keep defence was in Fort Ash as AD Nightblade. I was so happy when I got my first stone treb because I killed a person with it. My funnel health was doing little damage as a stamina nightblade. I liked the concept of the skill (healing while doing damage) but I had no idea I should use stamina skills. My attribute points were scattered all over the place because I was doing that in Skyrim. When I noticed I keep dying in Cyrodiil a lot, I thought I should invest more into health recovery so I changed my jewelery glyphs to that (faceplam). I had no concept of pro-active healing and avoiding damage in general since I came from TESV:Skyrim. And how in the hell should I have known that my heals are scaling to my freaking weapon damage? That makes absolutely no logical sense to a new player.
Do you see the problem here? Because I sure do. Players have to figure out the game concepts and mechanics on their own. No new player is going to browse forums or watch youtube tutorials because they are enjoing the immersiveness of the game. A new player could not care less about DPS, LOS, META or other stuff when he can just go and kill stuff. I hate to compare the following two games because they are so different but this will lead us to the main topic: even Runescape has combat tutors. So let us talk about how we could teach players the game while playing it. I will be discussing both PVE and PVP.
Main concepts I want to discuss:
General ESO math and mechanics
First of all I realise everything must be consistent with the lore. So I will try my best to suggest lore - friendly solutions for every concept I introduce. Also my idea is making all these tutorial MANDATORY unless they were already completed on other characters. You can introduce the tutorials in various situations: for example when switching a role in party window for a first time a pop-up could appear saying: "You just changed your role, do you want to explore the secrets of combat in Tamriel?". The pop-up could also appear in the first few death recaps after, say, reaching level 35: "It seems you are having some trouble fighting stronger foes. A wizard Whatever in some secret lore place can help you learn some tricks". If you want even more lore-friendly solution to this: the wizard Whatever could appear in front of the player who just resurrected and teleport the said player to his secret library in the magical forest.
The wizard Whatever should teach the player:
PVE tutors
Before making a player one of The Undaunted after getting the invitation, players would have to complete a mandatory tutorial dungeon. It could be narrated or moderated whatever you call it by the undaunted quest givers or main quest heroes or whatever. In this tutorial dungeon a player could practice various excercises while learning new concepts. If some skills are not unlocked by the player they would be given to him just for this tutorial (similar to WW quest). Let me create 3 fictional characters for this part of the post:
The healer Corona would teach you the basic concept of a healer: "Your job is to make sure noone dies. But to do that first of all you mustn't die yourself".
Corona would also make a point about how healing scales, show a couple rotations with her staff utilizing buffs (ie Major mending from a resto heavy attack).
A 3-part excercise would follow:
Rambo would explain the concepts of direct damage, damage over time, area of effect damage and how all of it scales. Rambo would also name a few great skills to use: "You can cast volley and forget about it for some time while you are fighting the foe. If you also poison it you will kill it and be home celebrating before you know it!". He would also give some tips about dealing damage: "Light attacks inbetween the skills are basically free damage! You can even start casting a skill while doing a light attack it is so easy! Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise on a dummy boss follows:
Now we got to Sherman our beloved tank. He would explain about armour and shields, buffs, heavy attacks, self sustaining. He would also note the importance of magicka pool and options of blocking using magicka. Sherman would teach you the basics of being a tank: "You must be big and scary. With that many hitpoints you could not tank a fly. Okay, you can try. When adventuring and fighting powerful foes they will always fight back. Your job is to make sure you are the one taking all the heat and making damage dealers' job easier.". He would then explain basics of melee and ranged taunting, pulling and immobilising. "Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise follows:
Now I know that this tutorial does not make one a great PVE content player but bear with me. It's all about lessening the gap. This tutorial would put all the players at the same ground and maybe would make them want to learn even more. If I would have had this kind of short minigame before I started doing pledges, I would not have been a hedless chicken that gets killed, kicked or quitted all the time.
PVP tutors
Now we do have some version of that in game. The one that let's you shoot ballistas at the dummies. But there are some critical points that we are not taught before entering PVP. I will create one more character for this part: Leet Pwner. The first thing he would say: You want to fight real people? Not in that armour - you will melt like butter! and would explain that people can crit and the importance of crit resistance. He would also make some good points about how people want to kill you just as much as you want to kill them: "This is not a brainless monster anymore it is a real person fighting for his life. He will try to kill you by all means. Avoid getting outnumbered, KEEP MOVING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Find some place to cover against enemy sorcerer spells and archer arrows. Cooperate with your alliance players.". Then he would explain about wearing your enemy down and then bursting. He also gives some tips how you can buff your weapon/spell damage before your burst using sets or glyphs or skills.
Leet Pwner would explain how to conserve resources, how to heavy attack to get them back, how to use DOTs to apply pressure and he would explain how to do a burst combo.
We can add a pvp combo minigame right here.
Leet Pwner also has some great points about attacking and defending keeps, how to focus siege fire into the breach, how you always have to apply pressure if you want to do a push. He would then remind the player to keep moving and keep buffing yourself all the time because you cannot know if there is an enemy nightblade behind you just waiting for you to make a mistake to get your head. He would also mention that HOTs is what makes you tanky, not the armour. Leet Pwner also mentions that wandering alone and fighting in group are totally different playstyles.
I know this by far is not the perfect version of the tutorial. But this solution would achieve several goals:
I would love to hear your suggestions and if I missed some key points. But keep in mind, this should be a ROOKIE tutorial, not a Spartan workout.
TLDR; teaching a new player to play is a better option than changing the game's core concepts to fit the needs of new players.
After reading the new light/heavy attack concept yesterday I was really angry. Angry not because I hated the concept (well I kinda did) but because the skill gap solution is out there. No need for drastic gameplay changes that will drive veteran players (which pay you money each month) away.
The problem with the skill gap is not that it is hard to press light attack button every second or so, the main problem is NEWCOMMERS DO NOT KNOW THAT THEY SHOULD.
I remember myself trying to do my first 4 man dungeon - me, along with my wife, my brother and his girlfriend were all levels 32-44 when we found The Banished Cells. Yes, we knew the basic concept of roles: we had a healer, 2x damage dealers and a tank. And you know what we were doing? My bro was throwing himself among the npcs and blocking and I was spamming throwing blade while my wife spammed lethal arrow and light attacks. We had to give up our first run and make the lower level healer (lvl32) the team leader so the dungeon scaled to her to complete it (note: this was 2016, before One Tamriel). And of course we were shamed and kicked and called names first times we used dungeon finder to complete pledges. Because we had absolutely no idea what we are doing.
First time in Cyrodiil I was just sneaking around the vast planes with my brother completing cyro delves (they were pretty hard back then for a lvl40 since they were all scaled to v16). My first keep defence was in Fort Ash as AD Nightblade. I was so happy when I got my first stone treb because I killed a person with it. My funnel health was doing little damage as a stamina nightblade. I liked the concept of the skill (healing while doing damage) but I had no idea I should use stamina skills. My attribute points were scattered all over the place because I was doing that in Skyrim. When I noticed I keep dying in Cyrodiil a lot, I thought I should invest more into health recovery so I changed my jewelery glyphs to that (faceplam). I had no concept of pro-active healing and avoiding damage in general since I came from TESV:Skyrim. And how in the hell should I have known that my heals are scaling to my freaking weapon damage? That makes absolutely no logical sense to a new player.
Do you see the problem here? Because I sure do. Players have to figure out the game concepts and mechanics on their own. No new player is going to browse forums or watch youtube tutorials because they are enjoing the immersiveness of the game. A new player could not care less about DPS, LOS, META or other stuff when he can just go and kill stuff. I hate to compare the following two games because they are so different but this will lead us to the main topic: even Runescape has combat tutors. So let us talk about how we could teach players the game while playing it. I will be discussing both PVE and PVP.
Main concepts I want to discuss:
- General ESO math and mechanics
- PVE roles and mechanics
- PVP roles and mechanics
General ESO math and mechanics
First of all I realise everything must be consistent with the lore. So I will try my best to suggest lore - friendly solutions for every concept I introduce. Also my idea is making all these tutorial MANDATORY unless they were already completed on other characters. You can introduce the tutorials in various situations: for example when switching a role in party window for a first time a pop-up could appear saying: "You just changed your role, do you want to explore the secrets of combat in Tamriel?". The pop-up could also appear in the first few death recaps after, say, reaching level 35: "It seems you are having some trouble fighting stronger foes. A wizard Whatever in some secret lore place can help you learn some tricks". If you want even more lore-friendly solution to this: the wizard Whatever could appear in front of the player who just resurrected and teleport the said player to his secret library in the magical forest.
The wizard Whatever should teach the player:
- The difference of stamina and magicka builds
- How even the best armour can only mitigate 50% of the damage
- How one can penetrate the said armor
- How the resource pool affects your tooltips and scales to weapon/spell damage
- Separate part about healing scaling (the stronger you are in general the healthier you are)
- General scaling of stuff in Tamriel (i.e. how one can be a great at healing and affect a healing tooltip on his armour)
- The importance of food/drink buffs (Are you really travelling all those distances hungry? Are you mad, Adventurer?)
- Some differences about PVE and PVP and about critical damage and resistance
- Some rumours about Monster sets which are aquired only by the most worthy warriors
PVE tutors
Before making a player one of The Undaunted after getting the invitation, players would have to complete a mandatory tutorial dungeon. It could be narrated or moderated whatever you call it by the undaunted quest givers or main quest heroes or whatever. In this tutorial dungeon a player could practice various excercises while learning new concepts. If some skills are not unlocked by the player they would be given to him just for this tutorial (similar to WW quest). Let me create 3 fictional characters for this part of the post:
- A healer Corona
- A damage dealer Rambo
- A tank Sherman
The healer Corona would teach you the basic concept of a healer: "Your job is to make sure noone dies. But to do that first of all you mustn't die yourself".
Corona would also make a point about how healing scales, show a couple rotations with her staff utilizing buffs (ie Major mending from a resto heavy attack).
A 3-part excercise would follow:
- A npc boss and a friendly npc team killing it(1 tank, 2 dds). The point of the mini-game would be using HOT skills to keep the npc hp bars up.
- Same situation, but boss has a very well telegraphed special attack. Use a burst heal to get the bars up as quick as possible.
- This time the special attack is a very large AOE which the player has to dodge before healing his teammates.
Rambo would explain the concepts of direct damage, damage over time, area of effect damage and how all of it scales. Rambo would also name a few great skills to use: "You can cast volley and forget about it for some time while you are fighting the foe. If you also poison it you will kill it and be home celebrating before you know it!". He would also give some tips about dealing damage: "Light attacks inbetween the skills are basically free damage! You can even start casting a skill while doing a light attack it is so easy! Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise on a dummy boss follows:
- Cancel a light attack with a skill. Great, let's make it more difficult.
- Complete a 1 bar rotation on the dummy boss: wow, you are really good at this.
- Complete a 2 bar rotation on the dummy boss and roll dodge from a big AOE at the end of rotation.
Now we got to Sherman our beloved tank. He would explain about armour and shields, buffs, heavy attacks, self sustaining. He would also note the importance of magicka pool and options of blocking using magicka. Sherman would teach you the basics of being a tank: "You must be big and scary. With that many hitpoints you could not tank a fly. Okay, you can try. When adventuring and fighting powerful foes they will always fight back. Your job is to make sure you are the one taking all the heat and making damage dealers' job easier.". He would then explain basics of melee and ranged taunting, pulling and immobilising. "Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise follows:
- Taunt a boss and turn it around so the conal attacks face away from your teammates. Great, you did it!
- Now taunt a boss, turn it around and pull 3 adds to the friendly aoes (ie silverleashing).
- Taunt a boss, turn it around, pull adds, immobilise them and interrupt a special attack. You really did it? I can't believe it. I was wrong after all.
Now I know that this tutorial does not make one a great PVE content player but bear with me. It's all about lessening the gap. This tutorial would put all the players at the same ground and maybe would make them want to learn even more. If I would have had this kind of short minigame before I started doing pledges, I would not have been a hedless chicken that gets killed, kicked or quitted all the time.
PVP tutors
Now we do have some version of that in game. The one that let's you shoot ballistas at the dummies. But there are some critical points that we are not taught before entering PVP. I will create one more character for this part: Leet Pwner. The first thing he would say: You want to fight real people? Not in that armour - you will melt like butter! and would explain that people can crit and the importance of crit resistance. He would also make some good points about how people want to kill you just as much as you want to kill them: "This is not a brainless monster anymore it is a real person fighting for his life. He will try to kill you by all means. Avoid getting outnumbered, KEEP MOVING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Find some place to cover against enemy sorcerer spells and archer arrows. Cooperate with your alliance players.". Then he would explain about wearing your enemy down and then bursting. He also gives some tips how you can buff your weapon/spell damage before your burst using sets or glyphs or skills.
Leet Pwner would explain how to conserve resources, how to heavy attack to get them back, how to use DOTs to apply pressure and he would explain how to do a burst combo.
We can add a pvp combo minigame right here.
Leet Pwner also has some great points about attacking and defending keeps, how to focus siege fire into the breach, how you always have to apply pressure if you want to do a push. He would then remind the player to keep moving and keep buffing yourself all the time because you cannot know if there is an enemy nightblade behind you just waiting for you to make a mistake to get your head. He would also mention that HOTs is what makes you tanky, not the armour. Leet Pwner also mentions that wandering alone and fighting in group are totally different playstyles.
I know this by far is not the perfect version of the tutorial. But this solution would achieve several goals:
- Teaching new players play
- Veteran players do not get annoyed by dramatic gameplay changes
- Veteran players like how the overall player skill is improved
- The skill gap is lessened
I would love to hear your suggestions and if I missed some key points. But keep in mind, this should be a ROOKIE tutorial, not a Spartan workout.
TLDR; teaching a new player to play is a better option than changing the game's core concepts to fit the needs of new players.
45
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tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd love a proper tutorial for dungeon mechanics.
I play a tank, but I really don't know more than "Taunt the boss and have a lot of HP" in terms of how to play it. As such, I'm really scared to go into dungeons, considering how many people here complain about 'fake tanks' - I'm not fake, I'm just a noob.
I really want to be able to run vet dungeons (and unlock the Beast personality), but right now I'm too scared to get a group for FG1. There really needs to be an in-game tutorial more extensive than what Lyris/Naryu/whoever the others are gives you.]
PS - since you brought it up...what's pulling? Is that taunting the other mobs and bringing them to you? Or using the DK Flame Chain ability to grab them?3 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually it says in the loading screens how to light attack weave and that it improves your damage output. And it is not hard by any means, especially on keyboard and mouse. It is a trifle more difficult on controller, but still not difficult by any means.2 -
Coppes✭✭✭✭Actually it says in the loading screens how to light attack weave and that it improves your damage output. And it is not hard by any means, especially on keyboard and mouse. It is a trifle more difficult on controller, but still not difficult by any means.
A tip, just one tip. That’s has RNG depending on if it shows up on your screen.
As far as I can tell, HA weaving is easier than LA weaving by a decent amount. It won’t make people who want to LA/HA weave do it, but it would allow an easier to solution to those who struggle with it.
‘Skilled’ players need to realize that they aren’t the majority playing the game, and ZoS also needs to consider the other side.Edited by Coppes on March 24, 2020 2:35PM7 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Spaceroamer wrote: »Actually it says in the loading screens how to light attack weave and that it improves your damage output. And it is not hard by any means, especially on keyboard and mouse. It is a trifle more difficult on controller, but still not difficult by any means.
A tip, just one tip. That’s has RNG depending on if it shows up on your screen.
Then maybe they should just make a hint pop up at the beginning of the game guiding people to the tutorial page. Much easier than just nuking the system we have had since forever.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭milllaurie wrote: »Warning: long post.
After reading the new light/heavy attack concept yesterday I was really angry. Angry not because I hated the concept (well I kinda did) but because the skill gap solution is out there. No need for drastic gameplay changes that will drive veteran players (which pay you money each month) away.
The problem with the skill gap is not that it is hard to press light attack button every second or so, the main problem is NEWCOMMERS DO NOT KNOW THAT THEY SHOULD.
I remember myself trying to do my first 4 man dungeon - me, along with my wife, my brother and his girlfriend were all levels 32-44 when we found The Banished Cells. Yes, we knew the basic concept of roles: we had a healer, 2x damage dealers and a tank. And you know what we were doing? My bro was throwing himself among the npcs and blocking and I was spamming throwing blade while my wife spammed lethal arrow and light attacks. We had to give up our first run and make the lower level healer (lvl32) the team leader so the dungeon scaled to her to complete it (note: this was 2016, before One Tamriel). And of course we were shamed and kicked and called names first times we used dungeon finder to complete pledges. Because we had absolutely no idea what we are doing.
First time in Cyrodiil I was just sneaking around the vast planes with my brother completing cyro delves (they were pretty hard back then for a lvl40 since they were all scaled to v16). My first keep defence was in Fort Ash as AD Nightblade. I was so happy when I got my first stone treb because I killed a person with it. My funnel health was doing little damage as a stamina nightblade. I liked the concept of the skill (healing while doing damage) but I had no idea I should use stamina skills. My attribute points were scattered all over the place because I was doing that in Skyrim. When I noticed I keep dying in Cyrodiil a lot, I thought I should invest more into health recovery so I changed my jewelery glyphs to that (faceplam). I had no concept of pro-active healing and avoiding damage in general since I came from TESV:Skyrim. And how in the hell should I have known that my heals are scaling to my freaking weapon damage? That makes absolutely no logical sense to a new player.
Do you see the problem here? Because I sure do. Players have to figure out the game concepts and mechanics on their own. No new player is going to browse forums or watch youtube tutorials because they are enjoing the immersiveness of the game. A new player could not care less about DPS, LOS, META or other stuff when he can just go and kill stuff. I hate to compare the following two games because they are so different but this will lead us to the main topic: even Runescape has combat tutors. So let us talk about how we could teach players the game while playing it. I will be discussing both PVE and PVP.
Main concepts I want to discuss:- General ESO math and mechanics
- PVE roles and mechanics
- PVP roles and mechanics
General ESO math and mechanics
First of all I realise everything must be consistent with the lore. So I will try my best to suggest lore - friendly solutions for every concept I introduce. Also my idea is making all these tutorial MANDATORY unless they were already completed on other characters. You can introduce the tutorials in various situations: for example when switching a role in party window for a first time a pop-up could appear saying: "You just changed your role, do you want to explore the secrets of combat in Tamriel?". The pop-up could also appear in the first few death recaps after, say, reaching level 35: "It seems you are having some trouble fighting stronger foes. A wizard Whatever in some secret lore place can help you learn some tricks". If you want even more lore-friendly solution to this: the wizard Whatever could appear in front of the player who just resurrected and teleport the said player to his secret library in the magical forest.
The wizard Whatever should teach the player:- The difference of stamina and magicka builds
- How even the best armour can only mitigate 50% of the damage
- How one can penetrate the said armor
- How the resource pool affects your tooltips and scales to weapon/spell damage
- Separate part about healing scaling (the stronger you are in general the healthier you are)
- General scaling of stuff in Tamriel (i.e. how one can be a great at healing and affect a healing tooltip on his armour)
- The importance of food/drink buffs (Are you really travelling all those distances hungry? Are you mad, Adventurer?)
- Some differences about PVE and PVP and about critical damage and resistance
- Some rumours about Monster sets which are aquired only by the most worthy warriors
PVE tutors
Before making a player one of The Undaunted after getting the invitation, players would have to complete a mandatory tutorial dungeon. It could be narrated or moderated whatever you call it by the undaunted quest givers or main quest heroes or whatever. In this tutorial dungeon a player could practice various excercises while learning new concepts. If some skills are not unlocked by the player they would be given to him just for this tutorial (similar to WW quest). Let me create 3 fictional characters for this part of the post:- A healer Corona
- A damage dealer Rambo
- A tank Sherman
The healer Corona would teach you the basic concept of a healer: "Your job is to make sure noone dies. But to do that first of all you mustn't die yourself".
Corona would also make a point about how healing scales, show a couple rotations with her staff utilizing buffs (ie Major mending from a resto heavy attack).
A 3-part excercise would follow:- A npc boss and a friendly npc team killing it(1 tank, 2 dds). The point of the mini-game would be using HOT skills to keep the npc hp bars up.
- Same situation, but boss has a very well telegraphed special attack. Use a burst heal to get the bars up as quick as possible.
- This time the special attack is a very large AOE which the player has to dodge before healing his teammates.
Rambo would explain the concepts of direct damage, damage over time, area of effect damage and how all of it scales. Rambo would also name a few great skills to use: "You can cast volley and forget about it for some time while you are fighting the foe. If you also poison it you will kill it and be home celebrating before you know it!". He would also give some tips about dealing damage: "Light attacks inbetween the skills are basically free damage! You can even start casting a skill while doing a light attack it is so easy! Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise on a dummy boss follows:- Cancel a light attack with a skill. Great, let's make it more difficult.
- Complete a 1 bar rotation on the dummy boss: wow, you are really good at this.
- Complete a 2 bar rotation on the dummy boss and roll dodge from a big AOE at the end of rotation.
Now we got to Sherman our beloved tank. He would explain about armour and shields, buffs, heavy attacks, self sustaining. He would also note the importance of magicka pool and options of blocking using magicka. Sherman would teach you the basics of being a tank: "You must be big and scary. With that many hitpoints you could not tank a fly. Okay, you can try. When adventuring and fighting powerful foes they will always fight back. Your job is to make sure you are the one taking all the heat and making damage dealers' job easier.". He would then explain basics of melee and ranged taunting, pulling and immobilising. "Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise follows:- Taunt a boss and turn it around so the conal attacks face away from your teammates. Great, you did it!
- Now taunt a boss, turn it around and pull 3 adds to the friendly aoes (ie silverleashing).
- Taunt a boss, turn it around, pull adds, immobilise them and interrupt a special attack. You really did it? I can't believe it. I was wrong after all.
Now I know that this tutorial does not make one a great PVE content player but bear with me. It's all about lessening the gap. This tutorial would put all the players at the same ground and maybe would make them want to learn even more. If I would have had this kind of short minigame before I started doing pledges, I would not have been a hedless chicken that gets killed, kicked or quitted all the time.
PVP tutors
Now we do have some version of that in game. The one that let's you shoot ballistas at the dummies. But there are some critical points that we are not taught before entering PVP. I will create one more character for this part: Leet Pwner. The first thing he would say: You want to fight real people? Not in that armour - you will melt like butter! and would explain that people can crit and the importance of crit resistance. He would also make some good points about how people want to kill you just as much as you want to kill them: "This is not a brainless monster anymore it is a real person fighting for his life. He will try to kill you by all means. Avoid getting outnumbered, KEEP MOVING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Find some place to cover against enemy sorcerer spells and archer arrows. Cooperate with your alliance players.". Then he would explain about wearing your enemy down and then bursting. He also gives some tips how you can buff your weapon/spell damage before your burst using sets or glyphs or skills.
Leet Pwner would explain how to conserve resources, how to heavy attack to get them back, how to use DOTs to apply pressure and he would explain how to do a burst combo.
We can add a pvp combo minigame right here.
Leet Pwner also has some great points about attacking and defending keeps, how to focus siege fire into the breach, how you always have to apply pressure if you want to do a push. He would then remind the player to keep moving and keep buffing yourself all the time because you cannot know if there is an enemy nightblade behind you just waiting for you to make a mistake to get your head. He would also mention that HOTs is what makes you tanky, not the armour. Leet Pwner also mentions that wandering alone and fighting in group are totally different playstyles.
I know this by far is not the perfect version of the tutorial. But this solution would achieve several goals:- Teaching new players play
- Veteran players do not get annoyed by dramatic gameplay changes
- Veteran players like how the overall player skill is improved
- The skill gap is lessened
I would love to hear your suggestions and if I missed some key points. But keep in mind, this should be a ROOKIE tutorial, not a Spartan workout.
TLDR; teaching a new player to play is a better option than changing the game's core concepts to fit the needs of new players.
The problem with the skill gap is that people think that they can update or change it and eliminate it. It's always going to exist and it's there for a good reason.0 -
Coppes✭✭✭✭Spaceroamer wrote: »Actually it says in the loading screens how to light attack weave and that it improves your damage output. And it is not hard by any means, especially on keyboard and mouse. It is a trifle more difficult on controller, but still not difficult by any means.
A tip, just one tip. That’s has RNG depending on if it shows up on your screen.
Then maybe they should just make a hint pop up at the beginning of the game guiding people to the tutorial page. Much easier than just nuking the system we have had since forever.
You speak as if weaving is gone from the game.1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.16 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
In pvp at least gear is only a small part of it. It’s mostly experience.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten7 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
So what you are saying is that if someone that installed the game yesterday has the same build as a top dps pve Player that played for years they should do the same Damage?Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.5 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's hard to incentivise people to learn the game when a person can be carried through 99.999% of the game content by more skilled players.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.3 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭@OP I think the subject you raise is worthwhile exploring and you wrote it up nicely.
Problem is, the "skill gap" as raised in the pts patch notes raises a more fundamental issue. It is not saying "ESO is too hard for casuals, so we will make it easier". It really is saying "We (ZoS) do not like that part of the skill gap that is caused by fast clicking". In other words, they are exploring moving the goalposts of what "skilled" means.
So here's my view on complaints about this. As has been mentioned in this thread, there will always be a skill gap between players who are good with a given set of game mechanics and those who are not. The most vocal complains are going to come from people who are invested in that bit of "skill" ZoS think is too prominent.
I'm afraid it is sometimes difficult to separate which part of these complaints stem from entitlement and which are genuinly trying to be objective about what makes a good game.
Shifting goal posts of what "skill" means won't mean in the new context there is no/less room for players to create a skill gap. They'll just have to adapt and some won't like it / won't be as good as they were.Edited by Muizer on March 24, 2020 3:51PMPlease stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!5 -
mpicklesster✭✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »My funnel health was doing little damage as a stamina nightblade. I liked the concept of the skill (healing while doing damage) but I had no idea I should use stamina skills. My attribute points were scattered all over the place because I was doing that in Skyrim. When I noticed I keep dying in Cyrodiil a lot, I thought I should invest more into health recovery so I changed my jewelery glyphs to that (faceplam). I had no concept of pro-active healing and avoiding damage in general since I came from TESV:Skyrim. And how in the hell should I have known that my heals are scaling to my freaking weapon damage? That makes absolutely no logical sense to a new player.
^^^^This right here is arguably one of the main reasons for the skill gap. A lot of us came to ESO from another Elder Scrolls game. With respect to combat, ESO is a completely different animal and it's quite counter-intuitive at first. The relationships between the game's damage statistics (e.g., weapon damage, spell damage, weapon penetration, spell penetration, etc.) rewards specialization. Whereas--in Skyrim or any other TES game, you don't have to specialize. In Skyrim, you could get away with spreading your attribute points around all 3 resource pools; being a heavy armor, sword and board build; all the while running lots of Conjuration and Destruction spells.
In ESO, however, if you try that you're going to have low sustain and low damage. Here, you have to specialize. If you want to be a "master of magicka", you need to put all of your attribute points into magicka; run 5 pieces of light armor; invest solely in stats like spell damage and spell penetration; and only use destro staves.
In short, ESO actually rewards build specialization and punishes jack-of-all-trades builds. Conversely, jack-of-all-trades builds are totally feasible in all previous TES games. ZOS needs to find ways to teach new players the importance of specialization. The OP has some good, lore-friendly ideas for doing this.
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BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
So what you are saying is that if someone that installed the game yesterday has the same build as a top dps pve Player that played for years they should do the same Damage?
In theory, yes, but there is more to a build than simply throwing on the same set of armor. There's min-maxing champion point setting, there's selecting the right skills that maximize what your build does best (say example, DOTs vs., spammable damage skills, AOE vs. single target, etc.). Not to mention that - generally speaking, harder content such as trials should have better (stronger) endgame rewards such that a player who is just starting out in the game can't simply go to a crafting table and have a fully maximized build.
Honestly, I see what your counterargument is., but the situation you describe is not realistic. A person who just installed the game yesterday simply WON'T have the same build as a top DPS player on THAT day because it takes time to level up characters, acquire skills, acquire champion points, acquire gear, and become proficient enough to contribute to harder endgame content to get the higher end stuff.
But if a person is able to acquire all that stuff quickly and replicate the same playstyle as other top DPS players, then why should they be held back? I mean, its not as if top tier DPS players are hiding their builds anyways, and most are cookie-cutter builds to begin with (i.e., stamcro with zaan, relequins, and lokke's). What would separate those players at that point is the ability to execute mechanics repeatedly, which IMO is a better measure of skill simply because your not trying to acquire so much DPS that you can bypass mechanics by burning targets.
Again, I said it probably isn't a popular opinion, but a person shouldn't have to do that to "git gud" at the game - they should simply "git gud" by playing the actual game and learning mechanics rather than building to bypass them.3 -
@OP I think the subject you raise is worthwhile exploring and you wrote it up nicely.
Problem is, the "skill gap" as raised in the pts patch notes raises a more fundamental issue. It is not saying "ESO is too hard for casuals, so we will make it easier". It really is saying "We (ZoS) do not like that part of the skill gap that is caused by fast clicking". In other words, they are exploring moving the goalposts of what "skilled" means.
So here's my view on complaints about this. As has been mentioned in this thread, there will always be a skill gap between players who are good with a given set of game mechanics and those who are not. The most vocal complains are going to come from people who are invested in that bit of "skill" ZoS think is too prominent.
I'm afraid it is sometimes difficult to separate which part of these complaints stem from entitlement and which are genuinly trying to be objective about what makes a good game.
Shifting goal posts of what "skill" means won't mean in the new context there is no/less room for players to create a skill gap. They'll just have to adapt and some won't like it / won't be as good as they were.
I can be both skilled in Chess and Basketball. Both have their respective learning curves. But obviously there are fundamental differences in what skill means in these two scenarios. Both can be fun sure, but if I signed up for Basketball, played for years, developed a killer layup...and then ZOS up and says we're going to slowly change Basketball to Chess...well you can see where this goes. Would that mean the change gets rid of any "skill"? no. But it does mean a change to the nature of the game and corresponding skill. In my mind, that's the issue many of us ani cancel people and performance types have lamented over. Granted those examples arent a 1 to 1 perfect match. And granted it's an over board analogy I know. But the jist of it still stands that this game for a long while has been, as they put it; "Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions". With Morrowind and the incremental changes they've slowed this faced paced combat over time. And now with ani cancel gone and animations taking full priority, the final options we had via freedom over mechanics/interactions via reactive combat have gone as well. I've ranted enough all over the place and realized over all these years of changes, ZOS will do what they've decided. Many class reps have echoed this as well. Yes, your right it's adaptable. Yes the game will be playable and continue. What many of us lament over...is the loss of a once unique fast paced game...to a slowly generalized strange amalgam of what it once was. One that in many ways has changed metaphorically from Basketball to Chess. From pace and reactive speed, to time spent, thought out moves and an exchange of turns.
" [i...]these complaints stem from entitlement and which are genuinly trying to be objective about what makes a good game[/i]" well both Basketball and Chess are good games in my mind. They're just different games. Im not saying this wont be a good game. It's just changing so fast and determinedly that it catches many of us off guard. Also, it's changing in subtle unadvertised or otherwise deceptively advertised ways. Were ZOS to outright say, "we've decided to fundamentally change the game from its original fast paced reactive combat, to a more average user friendly slowed combat system. We have, for a few years, now had this in mind and thus increased many ability costs, reduced regen and introduced many programming aspects to solidify this vision." then I wouldnt like that change personally but I would see the logic and understand many changes that once seemed random crazy and as if they had no idea what they were doing. I could respect a blunt honest long term admission like that.1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭this thread is based on rude and forward.
this is not our position to push ideas and opinions on how they should run their game.
its none of our business.
let the developers do what they do best, it is their game to develop and the more people keep forcing their opinions on the developers the worse things will get for us.1 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
So what you are saying is that if someone that installed the game yesterday has the same build as a top dps pve Player that played for years they should do the same Damage?
The player that just downloaded the game won't have the same skills opened up in one day, won't have the same gear in one day, etc...
Over time yes both would be equal in gear and with the skills on the skill bar but not actual skill in the game. Learn how to execute the skills, keeping up the DoT, etc... are still part of the game. Just because I run the same skills you do doesn't mean I'm better or your better. It just means we got the same skills.
What I find most interesting is when I run with a group of 810 and they get stuck and don't know the mechanics they rage quit. Most want to burn content without actually learning mechanics. It's sad really because this game has some good mechanics and I like them when they do show up.
2 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
In pvp at least gear is only a small part of it. It’s mostly experience.
Very true, but you can't say the same for PVE. In PVE, its all about slapping on the meta gear, practicing rotation with the goal of getting your DPS so high that you can simply bypass mechanics with overwhelming DPS.
My preference would be that they simply remove the need to sit and practice in front of the dummy for hours to perfect DPS rotations so that players are forced to spend more time learning how to negotiate endgame PVE mechanics. That way, the same analysis would apply in PVE as it does in PVP - that the players with more knowledge of mechanics (rather than quick-twich skills or time to practice in front of a dummy) are the players with more skill.
2 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
So what you are saying is that if someone that installed the game yesterday has the same build as a top dps pve Player that played for years they should do the same Damage?
The player that just downloaded the game won't have the same skills opened up in one day, won't have the same gear in one day, etc...
Over time yes both would be equal in gear and with the skills on the skill bar but not actual skill in the game. Learn how to execute the skills, keeping up the DoT, etc... are still part of the game. Just because I run the same skills you do doesn't mean I'm better or your better. It just means we got the same skills.
What I find most interesting is when I run with a group of 810 and they get stuck and don't know the mechanics they rage quit. Most want to burn content without actually learning mechanics. It's sad really because this game has some good mechanics and I like them when they do show up.
Exactly this. People want to act like being able to perfectly light attack weave and animation cancel is the ONLY way for good DPS players to separate themselves from the bad but it simply isn't true. If you can't keep up your DoTs/AoE's, your going to have lower dps in general. That's fair. That's a L2P issue.
But once players get on that same level where they can maintain good uptimes on their DoTs/AoEs, etc., the next skill gap should come from the ability to maintain your damage while flawlessly executing mechanics - NOT from being able to animation cancel so flawlessly that your DPS allows you to burn through content and bypass them.
5 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »PS - since you brought it up...what's pulling? Is that taunting the other mobs and bringing them to you? Or using the DK Flame Chain ability to grab them?
The latter. If you only taunt them the ranged adds kepp shooting at the distance. If you use chains/silver leash from fighters guild/warden portal you can bring them to you. And since you are already tanking the boss and the main aoe damage is under it the adds melt in no time if you pull them there. 😉
To all others:
my main point was skill gap is called skill gap because it is about the skill. Skill can be improved. And devs can give players all the tools to do it. Shifting goalposts is cheesing in the more experienced players' expense.
And yes, there will always be people who want to get good without putting real effort. I suggested a fun way to do that.3 -
TokenIntellect✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »Warning: long post.
After reading the new light/heavy attack concept yesterday I was really angry. Angry not because I hated the concept (well I kinda did) but because the skill gap solution is out there. No need for drastic gameplay changes that will drive veteran players (which pay you money each month) away.
The problem with the skill gap is not that it is hard to press light attack button every second or so, the main problem is NEWCOMMERS DO NOT KNOW THAT THEY SHOULD.
I remember myself trying to do my first 4 man dungeon - me, along with my wife, my brother and his girlfriend were all levels 32-44 when we found The Banished Cells. Yes, we knew the basic concept of roles: we had a healer, 2x damage dealers and a tank. And you know what we were doing? My bro was throwing himself among the npcs and blocking and I was spamming throwing blade while my wife spammed lethal arrow and light attacks. We had to give up our first run and make the lower level healer (lvl32) the team leader so the dungeon scaled to her to complete it (note: this was 2016, before One Tamriel). And of course we were shamed and kicked and called names first times we used dungeon finder to complete pledges. Because we had absolutely no idea what we are doing.
First time in Cyrodiil I was just sneaking around the vast planes with my brother completing cyro delves (they were pretty hard back then for a lvl40 since they were all scaled to v16). My first keep defence was in Fort Ash as AD Nightblade. I was so happy when I got my first stone treb because I killed a person with it. My funnel health was doing little damage as a stamina nightblade. I liked the concept of the skill (healing while doing damage) but I had no idea I should use stamina skills. My attribute points were scattered all over the place because I was doing that in Skyrim. When I noticed I keep dying in Cyrodiil a lot, I thought I should invest more into health recovery so I changed my jewelery glyphs to that (faceplam). I had no concept of pro-active healing and avoiding damage in general since I came from TESV:Skyrim. And how in the hell should I have known that my heals are scaling to my freaking weapon damage? That makes absolutely no logical sense to a new player.
Do you see the problem here? Because I sure do. Players have to figure out the game concepts and mechanics on their own. No new player is going to browse forums or watch youtube tutorials because they are enjoing the immersiveness of the game. A new player could not care less about DPS, LOS, META or other stuff when he can just go and kill stuff. I hate to compare the following two games because they are so different but this will lead us to the main topic: even Runescape has combat tutors. So let us talk about how we could teach players the game while playing it. I will be discussing both PVE and PVP.
Main concepts I want to discuss:- General ESO math and mechanics
- PVE roles and mechanics
- PVP roles and mechanics
General ESO math and mechanics
First of all I realise everything must be consistent with the lore. So I will try my best to suggest lore - friendly solutions for every concept I introduce. Also my idea is making all these tutorial MANDATORY unless they were already completed on other characters. You can introduce the tutorials in various situations: for example when switching a role in party window for a first time a pop-up could appear saying: "You just changed your role, do you want to explore the secrets of combat in Tamriel?". The pop-up could also appear in the first few death recaps after, say, reaching level 35: "It seems you are having some trouble fighting stronger foes. A wizard Whatever in some secret lore place can help you learn some tricks". If you want even more lore-friendly solution to this: the wizard Whatever could appear in front of the player who just resurrected and teleport the said player to his secret library in the magical forest.
The wizard Whatever should teach the player:- The difference of stamina and magicka builds
- How even the best armour can only mitigate 50% of the damage
- How one can penetrate the said armor
- How the resource pool affects your tooltips and scales to weapon/spell damage
- Separate part about healing scaling (the stronger you are in general the healthier you are)
- General scaling of stuff in Tamriel (i.e. how one can be a great at healing and affect a healing tooltip on his armour)
- The importance of food/drink buffs (Are you really travelling all those distances hungry? Are you mad, Adventurer?)
- Some differences about PVE and PVP and about critical damage and resistance
- Some rumours about Monster sets which are aquired only by the most worthy warriors
PVE tutors
Before making a player one of The Undaunted after getting the invitation, players would have to complete a mandatory tutorial dungeon. It could be narrated or moderated whatever you call it by the undaunted quest givers or main quest heroes or whatever. In this tutorial dungeon a player could practice various excercises while learning new concepts. If some skills are not unlocked by the player they would be given to him just for this tutorial (similar to WW quest). Let me create 3 fictional characters for this part of the post:- A healer Corona
- A damage dealer Rambo
- A tank Sherman
The healer Corona would teach you the basic concept of a healer: "Your job is to make sure noone dies. But to do that first of all you mustn't die yourself".
Corona would also make a point about how healing scales, show a couple rotations with her staff utilizing buffs (ie Major mending from a resto heavy attack).
A 3-part excercise would follow:- A npc boss and a friendly npc team killing it(1 tank, 2 dds). The point of the mini-game would be using HOT skills to keep the npc hp bars up.
- Same situation, but boss has a very well telegraphed special attack. Use a burst heal to get the bars up as quick as possible.
- This time the special attack is a very large AOE which the player has to dodge before healing his teammates.
Rambo would explain the concepts of direct damage, damage over time, area of effect damage and how all of it scales. Rambo would also name a few great skills to use: "You can cast volley and forget about it for some time while you are fighting the foe. If you also poison it you will kill it and be home celebrating before you know it!". He would also give some tips about dealing damage: "Light attacks inbetween the skills are basically free damage! You can even start casting a skill while doing a light attack it is so easy! Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise on a dummy boss follows:- Cancel a light attack with a skill. Great, let's make it more difficult.
- Complete a 1 bar rotation on the dummy boss: wow, you are really good at this.
- Complete a 2 bar rotation on the dummy boss and roll dodge from a big AOE at the end of rotation.
Now we got to Sherman our beloved tank. He would explain about armour and shields, buffs, heavy attacks, self sustaining. He would also note the importance of magicka pool and options of blocking using magicka. Sherman would teach you the basics of being a tank: "You must be big and scary. With that many hitpoints you could not tank a fly. Okay, you can try. When adventuring and fighting powerful foes they will always fight back. Your job is to make sure you are the one taking all the heat and making damage dealers' job easier.". He would then explain basics of melee and ranged taunting, pulling and immobilising. "Here, let me show you:"
A 3-part excercise follows:- Taunt a boss and turn it around so the conal attacks face away from your teammates. Great, you did it!
- Now taunt a boss, turn it around and pull 3 adds to the friendly aoes (ie silverleashing).
- Taunt a boss, turn it around, pull adds, immobilise them and interrupt a special attack. You really did it? I can't believe it. I was wrong after all.
Now I know that this tutorial does not make one a great PVE content player but bear with me. It's all about lessening the gap. This tutorial would put all the players at the same ground and maybe would make them want to learn even more. If I would have had this kind of short minigame before I started doing pledges, I would not have been a hedless chicken that gets killed, kicked or quitted all the time.
PVP tutors
Now we do have some version of that in game. The one that let's you shoot ballistas at the dummies. But there are some critical points that we are not taught before entering PVP. I will create one more character for this part: Leet Pwner. The first thing he would say: You want to fight real people? Not in that armour - you will melt like butter! and would explain that people can crit and the importance of crit resistance. He would also make some good points about how people want to kill you just as much as you want to kill them: "This is not a brainless monster anymore it is a real person fighting for his life. He will try to kill you by all means. Avoid getting outnumbered, KEEP MOVING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Find some place to cover against enemy sorcerer spells and archer arrows. Cooperate with your alliance players.". Then he would explain about wearing your enemy down and then bursting. He also gives some tips how you can buff your weapon/spell damage before your burst using sets or glyphs or skills.
Leet Pwner would explain how to conserve resources, how to heavy attack to get them back, how to use DOTs to apply pressure and he would explain how to do a burst combo.
We can add a pvp combo minigame right here.
Leet Pwner also has some great points about attacking and defending keeps, how to focus siege fire into the breach, how you always have to apply pressure if you want to do a push. He would then remind the player to keep moving and keep buffing yourself all the time because you cannot know if there is an enemy nightblade behind you just waiting for you to make a mistake to get your head. He would also mention that HOTs is what makes you tanky, not the armour. Leet Pwner also mentions that wandering alone and fighting in group are totally different playstyles.
I know this by far is not the perfect version of the tutorial. But this solution would achieve several goals:- Teaching new players play
- Veteran players do not get annoyed by dramatic gameplay changes
- Veteran players like how the overall player skill is improved
- The skill gap is lessened
I would love to hear your suggestions and if I missed some key points. But keep in mind, this should be a ROOKIE tutorial, not a Spartan workout.
TLDR; teaching a new player to play is a better option than changing the game's core concepts to fit the needs of new players.
Very long, but also wrong. The fundamental problem is not l2p or "git gud."
What was it Gina wrote?- "First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."
- Second is the skill-gap that "as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb."
- Third: LA weaving lowers diversity of play-styles
- Fourth: LA doing more damage than HA and heavy doing restore makes zero sense
Yes, indeed, skill can be improved, but I have no idea how you teach someone to have no lag and mash buttons faster and more efficiently than they are physically capable of doing (or just willing to do). You cannot have an MMO built on the idea of playing as you like and— at the same time— make only one play style viable. Teaching me to play your way is not the same as playing as I would like.
And as to the idea that ESO is fundamentally different from other ES games, that's certainly true, but it has to still feel like the Elder Scrolls and the shifting meta over the last couple of years has moved ESO farther and father from feeling like an Elder Scrolls game. The changes to NB, the Bosmer/Argonian switcheroo, among others all undercut the precise feeling of ES nostalgia that Morrowind and Elsweyr (in particular) were supposed to bring. And now that we're heading back to Skyrim, due we really want to play Skyrim as a face-paced (but not especially thoughtful or interesting) button-pushing frenzy that not only fails to recapture what we loved about the original but actually poisons our memories?
I know that there are a lot of dedicated players who like to blame all the newbies and the filthy casuals for daring to demand the game be playable by the many (and not just enjoyable to the few), but it's especially ironic when it really isn't about learning to play or getting good, but about having nearly perfect mechanical timing and a fast internet connection.
4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wait, am I not supposed to run 3 health regen glyphs on my jewelry?
Also, those names. Haha Corona Healer, very topical. I think I am also going to name my next toon, Whatever Wizard. Haha. Good post.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 24, 2020 6:03PM1 -
AinSoph✭✭✭✭✭I absolutely love how ZOS says there is a skill gap and changes fundamental mechanics to fix it but not implementing tutorials of any kind. You can literally only find this out from external resources and no, a single loading screen tip and a single level up tip does not fix it.2 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭I absolutely love how ZOS says there is a skill gap and changes fundamental mechanics to fix it but not implementing tutorials of any kind. You can literally only find this out from external resources and no, a single loading screen tip and a single level up tip does not fix it.
To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?
Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.
I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.9 -
AinSoph✭✭✭✭✭To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?
Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.
I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
ngl, the concept as a whole is handled very oddly in the official's eyes, like it definitely debuted as a bug/glitch but it was fine so they left it there but then continued to just leave it as is while making vContent harder. It's honestly the reason the community is massively divided as it is.Edited by AinSoph on March 24, 2020 6:40PM0 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?
Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.
I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
ngl, the concept as a whole is handled very oddly in the official's eyes, like it definitely debuted as a bug/glitch but it was fine so they left it there but then continued to just leave it as is while making vContent harder. It's honestly the reason the community is massively divided as it is.
I agree. It was a weird flex to base vdifficulty around assuming players were weaving. That has caused a ton of grief down the line. If they had just nipped the whole thing in the bud years ago and created a global cooldown that can only be overridden by blocking, or made it so that cancelling an animation early cancelled the damage too, they would have a much healthier game today.
I used to try and get my friends to play ESO, but they'd get to endgame and I'd explain weaving and they'd quit. Like, no normal sane young adult with a life and a job is into the idea of weaving - no one.5 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭First point is that I agree that the fact that ESO lacks a basic developer-maintained Wiki that documents its core mechanics is beyond a travesty.
It is simply outrageous that in 2020 players must literally use the Scientific Method in order to experiment way into understanding the implementations of the combat system.
Second point is simply to ask the question: "What is wrong with having a skill gap?"
I say this as someone who knows that they will never have the Ticktock Tormentor title or Godslayer, etc. And, you know what, I am okay with that. I do not begrudge those who do more DPS than I and I just fundamentally do not understand this perennial fascination by some to bring the highest-end players down to their level.4 -
Rukia541✭✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?
Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.
I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
ngl, the concept as a whole is handled very oddly in the official's eyes, like it definitely debuted as a bug/glitch but it was fine so they left it there but then continued to just leave it as is while making vContent harder. It's honestly the reason the community is massively divided as it is.
I agree. It was a weird flex to base vdifficulty around assuming players were weaving. That has caused a ton of grief down the line. If they had just nipped the whole thing in the bud years ago and created a global cooldown that can only be overridden by blocking, or made it so that cancelling an animation early cancelled the damage too, they would have a much healthier game today.
I used to try and get my friends to play ESO, but they'd get to endgame and I'd explain weaving and they'd quit. Like, no normal sane young adult with a life and a job is into the idea of weaving - no one.
So eso should just be like every cookie cutter WoW clone? Nice anecdotal lie at the end there mixed with some juicy hyperbole.
As if literally left clicking between skill usage would be the reason to drive someone away. This change doesnt remove weaving by the way..lmao4 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Spaceroamer wrote: »Spaceroamer wrote: »Actually it says in the loading screens how to light attack weave and that it improves your damage output. And it is not hard by any means, especially on keyboard and mouse. It is a trifle more difficult on controller, but still not difficult by any means.
A tip, just one tip. That’s has RNG depending on if it shows up on your screen.
Then maybe they should just make a hint pop up at the beginning of the game guiding people to the tutorial page. Much easier than just nuking the system we have had since forever.
You speak as if weaving is gone from the game.
78 percent damage reduction is pretty much deleting a MASSIVE portion of damage from magdk, magblade AND non pet magsorc. So yeah, it might as well be gone.0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »I absolutely love how ZOS says there is a skill gap and changes fundamental mechanics to fix it but not implementing tutorials of any kind. You can literally only find this out from external resources and no, a single loading screen tip and a single level up tip does not fix it.
To be fair, making a tutorial for something like weaving would be just silly. "Quickly, hero, click the left mouse button in between your number keys as quickly as possible, but not too quickly because you want the attack to still go off". Talk about lore breaking lol, how the heck would they explain that in-game?
Looking back on it, I think the reason they've never created a better tutorial is because they've been low-key ashamed of how they just accepted weaving as a legitimate gameplay feature, and this is their first step in undoing that and becoming more of a proper MMO where managing timers / resources and skill usage is what determines damage.
I have always asserted the opinion that being skilled in weaving is just being skilled in a nonsense minigame and should not reward higher dps numbers. Honestly, this is making me consider playing again, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
This isn't going to make weaving light attacks go away. It'll be tied to sustain now. In some ways it will be even more critical.0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just my two cents, and its probably not a popular opinion, but...
Honestly, I think the "skillgap" in this game shouldn't come from spending hours and hours and hours in front of the parse dummies so that you can better execute the light attack weaving and animation canceling. I've always thought that build strength alone is where the real skillgap should come from in a game like this. Putting X set with Y set to get a combination of perks and abilities, and then setting up your skill bar with skills that maximize your build's strengths rather than its weaknesses. That would separate the lower tier players from the average to good players.
Then, at the top end of things, ability to execute mechanics (rather than burn through encounters) should be the ultimate skill gap barrier between the good and great players. However, the perception with this game right now is if you don't have enough DPS to burn through things, your a substandard player, and I just think that is a backwards mindset. After all, if you have the ability to repeatedly execute mechanics, aren't you an equally skilled player?
Just IMO, but you shouldn't have to spend hours and hours in front of a dummy to "git gud" at this game - you should just "git gud" by playing the game and becoming a more experienced player, and by doing so, gaining access to a wider variety of stronger sets. Then, learning to execute mechanics, particularly in endgame content should separate the good from the great players.
I never once stepped in front of a parse dummy. And I can weave no issue whatsoever on an xb1 controller. So....yeah. It came from practicing on live targets in cyro. You should not reward players for being lazy.3