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Lets talk about loot discrimination i.e. how rewarding only the top12 of DPS is ruining the fun
-
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its remarkable how people miss the fact that only some people get loot and instead focus on how they can get loot.
When a subject like this comes up it should be expected that the mechanics behind it will be discussed as they are now.
As for commenting directly to the topic, only 12 have gained loot from killing NPCs in open-world PvE areas for about 6 years. If you are not able to be on the higher end of the DPS in the group then find a target with fewer players.
Also, the key is to focus so you start doing DPS as soon as the target spawns, hit with something that hits hard and switches to a execute just before that execute becomes viable. If the target dies almost instantly like a dolmen boss then start with the executive.
Since the 12 player cap on loot prevents bots from cashing in it will not and should not be changed.2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.Edited by Tigerseye on March 19, 2020 5:01AM0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.
The point of overland is DPS. To tank you need to learn boss mechanics and stuff only dungeons/trials will teach you. You're not learning anything by equipping a taunt in overland and holding aggro there is more to it than that. The same goes for healing, there's more to it than throwing a couple of heals at people for 3seconds while they take down a boss. Even if the point of overland was to learn your class, that's still not the point of the event. The event requires you to kill things and the loot table is the top 12 dps.
Why is it that hard to put on a dps set and do enough damage to get your rewards? What do you think you're learning when you have 30 people nuking a boss down in 10seconds?
Tanks and healers get enough practice, dps don't get enough actual practice and it shows when you go into dungeons. Being a good DPS requires as much dedication as it does for a tank or a healer to get good. Overland doesn't teach you rotations and how to maximize your dps.
2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's not just about event bosses, it's about using any and all content to get used to your role.
So it becomes second nature.
So you can become a master at it, not just a Jack of All Trades.
Have you people even played other MMOs before?
Most of you don't seem to get it, at all.
Edited by Tigerseye on March 19, 2020 5:17AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.
The argument has large holes in it.
A healer cannot learn their role questing through overland. They have to DPS unless they want someone to carry them through the quests since there is not much healing to do in most overland quests. In other words, a healer needs to learn to do some DPS. The first character I leveled was a healer so I speak from experience.
For my tanks, I not found anything in overland that prepared me for tanking anything serious. Tanking world bosses for experience is more often a joke and I am not talking about the boss. Most tanks come into a WB and are clueless of the fact someone else is tanking it and soon enough there are multiple tanks on the boss. Interestingly, most players are ignorant of how taunts work permitting me to make the boss immune to their taunts. If they do not have the most basic understanding of tanking then they will not figure out what I did.
Besides that, I do not understand the point. I cannot recall the last time I did not get loot when I tanked the boss.1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I will just add that, if you want to have fun playing 75 different class, build and role combos, over multiple accounts, to (probably) only a mediocre type level and then switch to DPS to spam-kill event bosses, 99% of the time, of course that is totally up to you.
However, don't then tell people, who are trying to play this game like a traditional MMO, where you pick one main class, role, build and rotation and then stick with it, loyally, until you truly master it, that they are wrong to do so.
Because, they are not.
0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I will just add that, if you want to have fun playing 75 different class, build and role combos, over multiple accounts, to (probably) only a mediocre type level and then switch to DPS to spam-kill event bosses, 99% of the time, of course that is totally up to you.I will just add that, if you want to have fun playing 75 different class, build and role combos, over multiple accounts, to (probably) only a mediocre type level and then switch to DPS to spam-kill event bosses, 99% of the time, of course that is totally up to you.
However, don't then tell people, who are trying to play this game like a traditional MMO, where you pick one main class, role, build and rotation and then stick with it, loyally, until you truly master it, that they are wrong to do so.
Because, they are not.
No one is talking about 75 classes or multiple accounts, and you trying to infer people's skill levels are (probably) just you being salty because you're wrong and you know it. The events are supposed to be fun and simple. No huge deal or big thing, just kill the boss and get your loot. There are no greater mechanics and no reason to spam heal or tank a boss that gets insta-nuked. If you want to play 1 class, 1 role, 1 build 1 rotation that's fine but you can't expect the entire game to cater to you because you choose to play that way. The rest of us don't do that and not switching your role because you think tanking overland will teach you something about tanking (it won't) is on you.2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not a traditional mmo. However you can do whatever you desire, but don't expect the game or other players to bend before you.0 -
Kiyakotari✭✭✭✭✭
✭I main a tank. When I'm doing overland content, I swap out one of my sets for Relequen's (which was easy to get, because Cloudsrest groups always need tanks) and I'm fine.
However, I do think that the 12-person limit on boss drops is dumb and takes a lot of fun away from events. Of course the easy solution is to not have the event rewards tied to the boss drops. Tie them to something else, like daily quests. Problem solved.1 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭lets talk about discrimination in Olympic games. Not only first 3 places must get a reward. First 15 places must get reward!!!1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.
The argument has large holes in it.
The argument doesn't have holes in it, you (apparently) just don't really get what I'm saying.
You probably think you do, but you don't.A healer cannot learn their role questing through overland. They have to DPS unless they want someone to carry them through the quests since there is not much healing to do in most overland quests. In other words, a healer needs to learn to do some DPS. The first character I leveled was a healer so I speak from experience.
For my tanks, I not found anything in overland that prepared me for tanking anything serious. Tanking world bosses for experience is more often a joke and I am not talking about the boss.
Yes, I know all that and that is one of the main problems with MMO design, in general.
That it is, generally, hard to learn how to tank, or (especially) to heal, well while levelling alone.
I believe that should be looked into and worked on by the devs.
But, I'm not even talking about that...
I'm talking about sticking rigidly to your class, role and build, through thick and thin, until it becomes second nature.
However impractical that may be.
To do that, you have to suffer, in terms of doing lower DPS and everything takes too long.
Shouldn't be that way, but to truly learn your role you have to play it sufficiently and most people don't, because they are too busy switching to DPS and/or to other classes, roles and/or builds, all the time.
Which is fine, if they are having fun, but it doesn't result in many good players of specific roles, other than (possibly?) DPS.Most tanks come into a WB and are clueless of the fact someone else is tanking it and soon enough there are multiple tanks on the boss. Interestingly, most players are ignorant of how taunts work permitting me to make the boss immune to their taunts. If they do not have the most basic understanding of tanking then they will not figure out what I did.
Well, this is somewhat wandering off the point, but you have at least demonstrated that they don't understand how their role works.
So, that is probably a failure of the game, too.
But, at least they are trying to practice their tanking; not just spamming one DPS skill to ensure they get loot.
Which seems to be what most of the advice, here, is advocating.
As if the issue, here, is that people can't work out how to do that on their own.
As opposed to the fact that all roles should be equally valid, loot-wise, in any given situation.Edited by Tigerseye on March 19, 2020 6:12AM0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »It's not a traditional mmo. However you can do whatever you desire, but don't expect the game or other players to bend before you.
Well, it was originally.
Because it heavily borrowed design elements from WoW.
However, it has become less so.
Probably because they realised that many players had never played an MMO before and came here from Skyrim, not WoW.
I don't play a tank, or a healer, so I expect nothing.
I just recognise bad design when I see it.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭colossalvoids wrote: »It's not a traditional mmo. However you can do whatever you desire, but don't expect the game or other players to bend before you.
Well, it was originally.
Because it heavily borrowed design elements from WoW.
However, it has become less so.
Probably because they realised that many players had never played an MMO before and came here from Skyrim, not WoW.
I don't play a tank, or a healer, so I expect nothing.
I just recognise bad design when I see it.
It's not a traditional MMO and it never was. It's probably because they realized WoW was a hit 15 years ago and MMOs have evolved since then and not every single one of them is meant to be an exact clone.
You're wrong, just stop being salty to everyone.1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »It's not a traditional mmo. However you can do whatever you desire, but don't expect the game or other players to bend before you.
Well, it was originally.
Because it heavily borrowed design elements from WoW.
However, it has become less so.
Probably because they realised that many players had never played an MMO before and came here from Skyrim, not WoW.
I don't play a tank, or a healer, so I expect nothing.
I just recognise bad design when I see it.
It's not a traditional MMO and it never was. It's probably because they realized WoW was a hit 15 years ago and MMOs have evolved since then and not every single one of them is meant to be an exact clone.
You're wrong, just stop being salty to everyone.
No.
I know they came to WoW to observe and then borrowed, because I was there when they did it.
Not going to tell you exactly how I know, but I know.
...and no, I'm not "salty".0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.
The argument has large holes in it.
The argument doesn't have holes in it, you (apparently) just don't really get what I'm saying.
You probably think you do, but you don't.A healer cannot learn their role questing through overland. They have to DPS unless they want someone to carry them through the quests since there is not much healing to do in most overland quests. In other words, a healer needs to learn to do some DPS. The first character I leveled was a healer so I speak from experience.
For my tanks, I not found anything in overland that prepared me for tanking anything serious. Tanking world bosses for experience is more often a joke and I am not talking about the boss.
Yes, I know all that and that is one of the main problems with MMO design, in general.
That it is, generally, hard to learn how to tank, or (especially) to heal, well while levelling alone.
I believe that should be looked into and worked on by the devs.
But, I'm not even talking about that...
I'm talking about sticking rigidly to your class, role and build, through thick and thin, until it becomes second nature.
However impractical that may be.
To do that, you have to suffer, in terms of doing lower DPS and everything takes too long.
Shouldn't be that way, but to truly learn your role you have to play it sufficiently and most people don't, because they are too busy switching to DPS and/or to other classes, roles and/or builds, all the time.
Which is fine, if they are having fun, but it doesn't result in many good players of specific roles, other than (possibly?) DPS.Most tanks come into a WB and are clueless of the fact someone else is tanking it and soon enough there are multiple tanks on the boss. Interestingly, most players are ignorant of how taunts work permitting me to make the boss immune to their taunts. If they do not have the most basic understanding of tanking then they will not figure out what I did.
Well, this is somewhat wandering off the point, but you have at least demonstrated that they don't understand how their role works.
So, that is probably a failure of the game, too.
But, at least they are trying to practice their tanking; not just spamming one DPS skill to ensure they get loot.
Which seems to be what most of the advice, here, is advocating.
As if the issue, here, is that people can't work out how to do that on their own.
As opposed to the fact that all roles should be equally valid, loot-wise, in any given situation.
Ok, I'll bite, how do you think you would make the looting equally valid when the looting is DPS based? Why can't you just put on a dps set instead of changing the system to cater to you? You can even spam puncture with 2 dps sets, it's not like this is a big ask.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I will just add that, if you want to have fun playing 75 different class, build and role combos, over multiple accounts, to (probably) only a mediocre type level and then switch to DPS to spam-kill event bosses, 99% of the time, of course that is totally up to you.
However, don't then tell people, who are trying to play this game like a traditional MMO, where you pick one main class, role, build and rotation and then stick with it, loyally, until you truly master it, that they are wrong to do so.
Because, they are not.
How long does it take you to "master" a build for a specific role for a specific class? Most of the top players can handle mixing it up, playing multiple classes, multiple roles and change their build every time Zos makes changes (every 3 months). All with remaining top players.
This has been a common experience in every MMORPG I have played. Heck, I have only known two players who stuck with one class and role for years. One of them eventually started playing other roles and classes.
Further, overland is pretty useless for a tank or healer to "learn" their role. It is worse than trying to learn to heal or tank in normal dungeons. It is a joke.
Basically, what I quoted does not make sense.1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...and yes, I know it's not an "exact clone" and I also know exactly why and how that came to be.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OK, I'm done.
I have said all I need to say on a topic that doesn't even, directly, affect me.
Good luck, OP. 0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.
The argument has large holes in it.
The argument doesn't have holes in it, you (apparently) just don't really get what I'm saying.
You probably think you do, but you don't.
I pretty much do.
I speak from experience as I heal, tank, and DPS leaderboard runs using multiple classes in multiple roles. For my tanks, two do stay tanks all the time. I heal and DPS trials on various classes without issue or struggle.
Overland has been the most useless training ground for any role. I have never leveled up a character as a tank or healer. Yes, I have leveled up skills for tanking and healing but all on the back bar.
I have DPSish builds for my tanks for when I go questing. I have S&B on the back and tank WBs in that DPS gear with only 20K health. That is how much of a joke overland is.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So there is yet another event behind the corner and again we are going to see how rich are going to get richer and poor staying poor, so to speak.
Those that already got the sets, stuff and collectibles are going to get even more of them as they got the gear to be in that top 12 damage dealers thus those that don't have that gear (most likely newer players) are not going to get them. When dead bosses are camped by minimum of horde of the size of ~20 players as in the pic and around double or triple at peak hours while respawn timers are fixed the amount of not-getting-loot players starts to be ridiculous.
Also all tanks and healers can immediately forget any boss loot for the period of events as there is simply no way you can get to that top12 and that is the only sole loot system it seems. That basically kills the whole fun to play without anyone in this MMO if you are tank or a healer. Even if you would have group of 12 nice dudes to do dailys or zone completionist, as soon as there comes that 13th random dude to attack the same boss the only character in that whole horde that is preventing the boss from killing all the DPS dealing characters that have the tankability of a paper bag is getting zero reward. Make it two random dudes and the healer that keeps that frontline alive also gets cut out.
Doing any kind of content with bigger than 12 people hits immediately the 'multiplayer' part of the game in the knee with a sledge hammer. 'Oh, three hours of farming strongboxes/skin boxes and I got once (1) _loot_ as a tank. Wonder what other games there are' -has been my thoughts for quite some time.
Everyone involved in killing should get loot.
If someone contributed less than 50% of the time, then drop his chance to get loot by that same amount. This would simply fix the situation of late joiners that throw in one basic attack.
To address the fact that 50 players killing a boss makes the combat last around 15 to 20 seconds could be done by increasing the bosses stats by 100% for each starting group of 12 players in combat. Meaning that if normal boss has 5M HPs and hits 5k per basic attack has group of 13 players hitting it it would instead have 10M and hit 10k per basic attack. As soon as 25th player joins the fight, it would gain 5M more HPs and hit another 5k harder.
Or maybe something more modern like dynamically scaling stats, multi attacks, immunities or dozen other slutions.
As the way drops are implemented in the game now, it pushes people away from events and discourages to play with lots of players.
No. Events are supposed to be fun things where you have the potential to earn rewards. Now because of a small part of the community they've just turned into an opportunity to *** and complain about everything. If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards. Nothing is stopping you from throwing on a dps set or 2 and easily doing enough damage. I'd you already know the combat is going to last 10-20seconds then there's no reason for a tank or healer to even be present.
ZOS - "Play the way you want."
@Rave the Histborn - "If you're a tank or healer in overland then it's your own fault for not getting rewards."
@GrumpyDuckling um I think you mean ZOS - "Play the way you want*" (*within reason)
Playing the way you want doesn't mean you're guaranteed the rewards lol, I mean if i queue as a tank for a vet dungeons but I'm a DPS do I also get to whine if I get kicked?
Strawman. Stick to the point. "Play the way you want" shouldn't mean "DD only on overland content (specifically group bosses) to get rewards or GTFO."
Surely there is something wrong with that. There is no reason that tanks and healers shouldn't have purpose in overland content too. It doesn't have to be all about damage done. Loot could still drop for damage tanked, and damage healed.
It's not a strawman, you can't play how you want in vet trials and dungeons.
Play how you want means if you want to play as a tank or healer and overland you can, that doesn't also entitle you to the rewards.
What purpose do tanks and healers have in overland? Why would you reward them if the objective is to do damage?
The whole point should be to use overland (and easier instances) to learn your class and role, inside out.
That is not possible if you always have to switch to DPS to get your rewards.
Tanks and healers get a lot less practice in this game than DPS do and quite frankly, it (often) shows.
See, I read this post of yours and am speaking to it in case that is not clear.0 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So basically if they were looking at top mmos at the market as a guideline for their product at the very beginning they should also follow their trail exact same way or it's a bad game design. Definitely need to be an insider for that kinda stuff. I wonder if PoE guys looked at Diablo, but how can i know it without being there, eh.
It's a very different game right now anyway, and that's the reason we're still playing despite being desynched and lagged out of our minds.Edited by colossalvoids on March 19, 2020 6:57AM0 -
Charon_on_Vacation✭✭✭✭the 12 person rule is a flawed design.
every designer worth its salt can see that. there are multiple ways to correct it, but in the foreseeable future, it won't be, because there are a lot more important matters on the table for ZOS.
in regards to ESO and WoW, it doesn't really matter in that context, but yes, early stages, there was a lot of "borrowing" going on. there was a time when ESO had tab targeting and auto attacks. only the critique in early alpha stages lead to the changes that later formed the ESO we know. oh, and since some people always like to bring it up, that was also how light attack weaving came to be, changing from auto attacks to light and heavy attacks made it necessary to give light and heavies their own internal CDs, which then made them weavable, but it just wasn't on the teams radar at that time.
0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Indeed, I wish WoW was on console. Fallout 76 just doesnt cut it during ESO maintenance and Sonic Forces... well...0 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please enlighten me, I don't understand why this thread exists.
WHY is there such a big discussion about something worth so little.
First of all, OK started the discussion with false arguments: the top 12 DD become that (1) by using their endgame sets and (2) get more top rewards because of this. Both are not true. One can become top DD by spamming highest hitting single target skill + execute in such laggy environments. Try it on a baby toon, it works.
Also, OP insinuated these world bosses drop something worthfull. Technically it is true, but let's be honest, it is nothing. You have to wait a couple of minutes to get a guaranteed drop of a set item. This sounds strong, until you realise most of these sets are garbage/cheap anyway and there are much faster methods of gaining these sets anyway.
Kill mobs in zone if it is about the event ticket, much faster than waiting on boss to spawn.
Farm chests in zone if you want the set item. Much faster than waiting on a boss spawn, even if you are always one of the top DD and only want a weapon drop.
The real reward of killing the boss is the change of getting a style page from the daily quest reward, which is doubled during an event. Everyone who fought the boss gets this reward, so why complain about that items worth 100 gold which only the top DD get after waiting for a couple of minutes??
If this thread is about healer or tank, every possible time where loot is worth it they also get it. That's because in situations where this is the case, the bosses are instanced like in dungeons or trials, or everyone gets the loot like dragons or the daily quest reward box (with change of motif).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think nobody gets better from this small world boss drop. And nobody is disadvantaged when they don't get the loot. So I still don't understand the cause to this big discussion.0