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Were magblades ever as strong as magsorcs in PVP?
Langeston
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I have both classes, but I never really played the sorc — I'm not sure why, I just don't really like the playstyle as much. But lately I've been messing around on it & learning the skills, and it's unreal how much more powerful the class is. Reading through the forums it's clear that NBs got nerfed into the ground, but I can't even imagine my magblade ever being as strong as my sorc. Take Streak for example: it takes 3 NB skills to accomplish what Streak does, and it still can't do any of them as well. Burst damage, tankiness, & healing are all similarly weak AF on the magblade. The only thing the magblade can do better is not be seen, and that really isn't even particularly useful anymore.
Have sorcs always been stronger, or am I underestimating how badly magblades got nerfed?
(This is from a PVP perspective, by the way. I've never really done much PVE on the sorc, so I don't know how they stack up in that regard.)
Edited by Langeston on March 11, 2020 9:04PM Have sorcs always been stronger, or am I underestimating how badly magblades got nerfed?
(This is from a PVP perspective, by the way. I've never really done much PVE on the sorc, so I don't know how they stack up in that regard.)
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Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”2 -
The_Old_Goat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
So have you played one in a pve environment?13 -
Welcome fellow sorc! lol. I dunno I have some guildies that loved Magblade and given certain setups, they did seem to hit pretty hard. It may be the newness and fresh feeling you have that makes it feel better. Sorcs for the most part to me have a been fairly steady over the years. Rarely if ever top tier but not really ever bottom of the list either. (Though after some updates it felt like it). Playstyle is harder in my mind but the mobility plus defense and utility they offer (streak like you mentioned and Negate) have always made it fun to play.0 -
JanTanhide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Once upon a time Nightblades ruled PVE dungeons and trials. I remember when running with two nightblades in our group of four through Vet dungeons everything died before the Healer and Tank even got to the mobs.
Yes, they were very very strong and pulled top DPS. Sorcs got nerfed into the ground and many just made them into Mules or Bankers until ZOS gave them a little love back.
Nightblades have been nerfed as well and lately into the ground. But, if you have your NB setup with the best gear and skills for your intended game role they are still strong (PVP) except forget about Cloak for now. It's broken and not in a good way.3 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Old_Goat wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
So have you played one in a pve environment?
Yes, and Nightblades have always had issues in PvE because of the nature of their damage. Burst damage is better suited for PvP. PvE requires sustained damage, which the Nightblade class has a noticeably less of. I won't dispute the fact that Nightblades suffer more in PvE, but buffing their damage or converting their already existing abilities into sustained damage will hurt their balance in PvP. It's a nasty catch-22 because ZoS knows the class is already borderline broken in one environment and lackluster in the other. If Nightblades lose their burst in PvP, then their toolkit which relies on fast, hit-and-run combat will fall apart. The class was designed with PvP in mind. If you are primarily a PvE player, the class may simply be a poor fit for your needs.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the second time you've said this. Previously you said impen didn't affect it, so either you're talking about proc sets (you just said you're not) or you're able to do 40k non-crit damage in 2 hits. Unless you have video to prove it, go peddle this garbage somewhere else. As of right now though, I just think you're a sorc troll.Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.26 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭JanTanhide wrote: »Once upon a time Nightblades ruled PVE dungeons and trials. I remember when running with two nightblades in our group of four through Vet dungeons everything died before the Healer and Tank even got to the mobs.
Yes, they were very very strong and pulled top DPS. Sorcs got nerfed into the ground and many just made them into Mules or Bankers until ZOS gave them a little love back.
Nightblades have been nerfed as well and lately into the ground. But, if you have your NB setup with the best gear and skills for your intended game role they are still strong (PVP) except forget about Cloak for now. It's broken and not in a good way.
I still use Cloak. Yes, it's bugged at times but I can still perform combat fairly well with it. When cloak gets fixed, the class will even more reliable. Yes, the bugged cloak sucks, but it's not a permanent issue - it will get fixed eventually.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”0 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the second time you've said this. Previously you said impen didn't affect it, so either you're talking about proc sets (you just said you're not) or you're able to do 40k non-crit damage in 2 hits. Unless you have video to prove it, go peddle this garbage somewhere else. As of right now though, I just think you're a sorc troll.Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
I don't have to prove anything to you. My performance with the class isn't impacted beyond the occasional cloak issue. Perhaps you should reconsider your effectiveness with the class rather than lashing out at others who aren't having issues with the class.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”1 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »
This is the second time you've said this. Previously you said impen didn't affect it, so either you're talking about proc sets (you just said you're not) or you're able to do 40k non-crit damage in 2 hits. Unless you have video to prove it, go peddle this garbage somewhere else. As of right now though, I just think you're a sorc troll.Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
I don't have to prove anything to you. My performance with the class isn't impacted beyond the occasional cloak issue. Perhaps you should reconsider your effectiveness with the class rather than lashing out at others who aren't having issues with the class.
I didn't expect you would — just don't expect me to believe you.
[edit] I just had a thought: you're a console player, aren't you.Edited by Langeston on March 11, 2020 6:50PM10 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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40k dmg sure thing broVercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
So what, you're hitting 20k soul harvests and 20k will's? Utter nonsense. 20 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Vercingetorix wrote: »The_Old_Goat wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
So have you played one in a pve environment?
Yes, and Nightblades have always had issues in PvE because of the nature of their damage. Burst damage is better suited for PvP. PvE requires sustained damage, which the Nightblade class has a noticeably less of. I won't dispute the fact that Nightblades suffer more in PvE, but buffing their damage or converting their already existing abilities into sustained damage will hurt their balance in PvP. It's a nasty catch-22 because ZoS knows the class is already borderline broken in one environment and lackluster in the other. If Nightblades lose their burst in PvP, then their toolkit which relies on fast, hit-and-run combat will fall apart. The class was designed with PvP in mind. If you are primarily a PvE player, the class may simply be a poor fit for your needs.
Magblades and Stamblades have been on top in PvE for years and only recently have been taken down a peg, so I don't know where this "always had issues in PvE because of the nature of their damage" is coming from. The only issue that NB have suffered from up until a year ago was class stacking, because they were top damage.Edited by Kahnak on March 12, 2020 1:31PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"9 -
oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭Take Streak for example: it takes 3 NB skills to accomplish what Streak does, and it still can't do any of them as well. Burst damage, tankiness, & healing are all similarly weak AF on the magblade. The only thing the magblade can do better is not be seen, and that really isn't even particularly useful anymore.
(This is from a PVP perspective, by the way. I've never really done much PVE on the sorc, so I don't know how they stack up in that regard.)
lets talk about cloak which gives you guaranteed crit/healing and minor protection, major resolve, increases max health by 3% for slotting, suppresses dots, increases your wpd/spd by 10% while you are invisible. poor nightblades3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In pvp, no magblade has never been as good as magsorc. I haven’t been playing since release, but in my time playing its never been close.
PvE is different. Funnel health used to do as much damage as swallow soul does now plus healed two people. Refreshing path used to do damage as well as heal, so it was like twisting path and refreshing path combined.
It allowed trial guilds to stack magblades and strip a healer, so magblades were the preferred ranged dps.Edited by Iskiab on March 11, 2020 7:57PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten3 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭oxygen_thief wrote: »Take Streak for example: it takes 3 NB skills to accomplish what Streak does, and it still can't do any of them as well. Burst damage, tankiness, & healing are all similarly weak AF on the magblade. The only thing the magblade can do better is not be seen, and that really isn't even particularly useful anymore.
(This is from a PVP perspective, by the way. I've never really done much PVE on the sorc, so I don't know how they stack up in that regard.)
lets talk about cloak which gives you guaranteed crit/healing and minor protection, major resolve, increases max health by 3% for slotting, suppresses dots, increases your wpd/spd by 10% while you are invisible. poor nightblades
Let's talk about the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about. You just combined Dark Cloak & Shadowy Disguise — you either get a crit or Minor Protection, (apparently Minor Protection is bugged on Dark Cloak right now and if you weave the crit is wasted on your LA from Shadowy Disguise) neither give you crit healing, NBs get the shortest duration of Major Resolve of all classes, the Dark Vigor passive pretty much ensures that you'll have less health on one bar than the other, and it is the most easily defeated skill on any class in the entire game.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question.Edited by Langeston on March 11, 2020 8:02PM18 -
oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's talk about the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about.
/ means or
ive killed a lot of nbs as a sorc and ive been killed by nbs a lot. the answer is in you. if you do know how to play your class properly you will succeed.Edited by oxygen_thief on March 11, 2020 8:11PM2 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭In pvp, no magblade has never been as good as magsorc. I haven’t been playing since release, but in my time playing its never been close.
PvE is different. Funnel health used to do as much damage as swallow soul does now plus healed two people. Refreshing path used to do damage as well as heal, so it was like twisting path and refreshing path combined.
It allowed trial guilds to stack magblades and strip a healer, so magblades were the preferred ranged dps.
If magblades were always a relative non-threat to sorcs in PVP, then why were the sorcs so insistent upon dropping the nerf-hammer on them? My understanding is that the "nerf nightblade" posts were crawling with magsorcs. Was it mainly aimed at stamblades and mag just got caught in the crossfire?0 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭They all had some moments, Years ago the dual wield magblade was strong as hell (maybe 2014/2015), especially because fear was extremely buggy and they could build stronger. The bomb builds 2015 way back in the day we’re stupid strong. Also soul assault builds and when calurrions came out if paired with burst it was insanely strong with Zaan.
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In pvp, no magblade has never been as good as magsorc. I haven’t been playing since release, but in my time playing its never been close.
PvE is different. Funnel health used to do as much damage as swallow soul does now plus healed two people. Refreshing path used to do damage as well as heal, so it was like twisting path and refreshing path combined.
It allowed trial guilds to stack magblades and strip a healer, so magblades were the preferred ranged dps.
If magblades were always a relative non-threat to sorcs in PVP, then why were the sorcs so insistent upon dropping the nerf-hammer on them? My understanding is that the "nerf nightblade" posts were crawling with magsorcs. Was it mainly aimed at stamblades and mag just got caught in the crossfire?
I think the nerfs were because of pve and Stamblades. There are also more sorcs in general in the game. Most opinions on the forums are magsorcs and stam.
Magsorcs are also supposed to be countered by gankers, most run around in pure glass specs and try to stay at range. The NB hate is natural, the devs listening is another matter.Edited by Iskiab on March 11, 2020 8:29PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭oxygen_thief wrote: »
Well, I hardly ever get killed by NBs at all. In fact there's probably only one I can think of that gave me any trouble, and that stopped when group queues ended. If you die to NBs as a Sorc, then I have a feeling you'd get crushed if you ever played as a NB. I recommend trying it — if you do I guarantee that the next time you say "poor nightblades" it won't be sarcasm.2 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Historically In pvp magblade has never been superior to mag sorc in a given patch. When magblade was a close contender, sorcs had no fatigue on streak, shields were uncritable and cheaper, dark deal was instant and crit surge had a far more generous scaling mechanism.
That being said, magblades were much stronger back in the day when proxy det was an actual skill to put on your bar for general burst combos on well rounded magblade builds and not just niche bomb setups, funnel health was an entirely respectable spammable even though most used force pulse back then.
Magblades being called budget magsorcs was a thing back then though still.3 -
daemonor✭✭✭✭
This is the second time you've said this. Previously you said impen didn't affect it, so either you're talking about proc sets (you just said you're not) or you're able to do 40k non-crit damage in 2 hits. Unless you have video to prove it, go peddle this garbage somewhere else. As of right now though, I just think you're a sorc troll.Vercingetorix wrote: »Magblades are still strong for those who know how to take advantage of their toolkit. Without using proc sets and with the right combination of buffs and debuffs, all of which are easily accessible to the magblade, I can still reliably burst players down for a minimum of 40k+ damage. Yes, that kind of damage is possible for a magblade in the span of just two hits - even with shaky cloak performance. Yes, cloak is bugged and needs fixes, but the class is not nerfed. The class certainly does NOT need buffs. When I can effectively ignore an opponent's defenses and kill them in two hits, the class is performing just fine. Again, players need to learn to adapt.
There's just always has to be that 1 guy who comes into the forums, claiming how he is the zen master of a currently underpowered class/spec and of course he is not playing with the cheese/meta/op whatever you wanna call sets, he has his own super secret dim mak "touch of death" spec developed on the cliffs of tibetian mountains reading scrolls, but he's never going to prove it to you because he is guarding this super secret knowledge from falling into the wrong hands, and everyone else just need to get on his level of ZEN.17 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭I have been playing since launch. Sorcs have always been top tier pvp because of their ability to stack on stat to boost damage plus defense. There is a reason why shields got shortened and it wasn’t due to other classes using light armor shield it was primarily a sorc thing due to the whole necro dam/shield combo. In pve nbs were on top for a long time but sorcs were easier to solo with. This is almost fact/cannon. I’ve been playing this game for a long time.3 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There were times magblades were stronger, yes. Just slightly harder to play, which is forum noobs typically preferred hating on sorcs. But it's almost always been a competition between sorc and nightblade for the top PvP magicka spot, which is where the rivalry comes from. Until lately, when magblades got obliterated.0 -
JayJayIsSoJay✭✭✭Stamblades used to be the dominant dps for a long time in PvE, magblades got their 'boom' when CWC dlc was released with AS, then it stayed as top dps for a good amount of time. the most significant wave of magblade nerfs started back on CWC dlc, basically cause the spec entered the PvE Mainstream as top magicka dps and got more attention from the community, and eventually received nerfs, like, we lost minor vitality from swallow, major exp on cripplin' grasp, damage on refreshing path, minor berserk(on both morphs of grim focus), funnel health's former damage, swallow's old healing(not sure on this one, I guess it used to heal for 50% of the damage done, nowadays it heals for about of 36%?), mass hysteria maim, and the most recent and one of the worst nerfs, the addition of cast time on deathstroke and its morphs.3 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭There were times magblades were stronger, yes. Just slightly harder to play, which is forum noobs typically preferred hating on sorcs. But it's almost always been a competition between sorc and nightblade for the top PvP magicka spot, which is where the rivalry comes from. Until lately, when magblades got obliterated.
That’s not right magblade has never been close to sorc in open world pvp performance. Magblade spent some time being better than sorc in regulated duels but as far as actual PvP goes sorc has always been better and it hasn’t even really been close. Magblade was terrible from dark brotherhood until Morrowind which was almost 2 years, and then it’s been terrible again since murkmire which was more than a year ago. So for a total of 3 years magblade has been bad. You can actually count the patches that magblade has been good on one hand. There is no magblade vs magsorc rivalry. The rivalry is between stamblade and magsorc.
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