Lightning Splash is Underperfoming

universal_wrath · March 2020

As title mention and I'm sure some of you know that as well, lightning spalsh and both of its morphs are underperforming greatly in comperison to other generic and class specific AOE I don't even bother running the skill on my magsorc anymore. Lowest of a damage, if you exclude the synergy, and smallest radius if you compare it all class AOE skills and some generic skills. Here are some tests I did. I removed all my gear, CO, and passives except for high elf racial passives and used random white fire staff and max magicka & Health food. I had to do the tests few times to exculed critical damage for more accurate numbers.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CRrdDhlWtGZS2BoED8nFVHDFODAg4MDB

Here are base skills:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hUFImCDqlTTouPgjnDDoL5-cUZITvME0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19tgOZoKhEM_PmuQTOvj-W1R9TS_iCUWk
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17wabCSLodVSRvHQASt6pHYVTwn89CYVj

Here are the damage morphs of the skills:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_pRlxQLPxfWtShoypP0o-30P0QoE488e
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jlJDcjJRUjaoSWEYc_0td_Y0_68Z69ho
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DxBohr2OI9XmQI64gxleleWANzGgRsB7

Here is the Morph with extended duration of both Lightning Splash and Elemental wall:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zO_I_Qrvv61NqXQ5uDrBDN93IWAeR6S3
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ri599pZWc2N9G2P9T6WLUqCYfqT1QM03

I was very surprised to see that the liquid lightning morph was doing more damage than elemental blockade, but it still has the smallest AOE radius in the game of 4m which is a major disadvantage against mystic orb that is 8m and elemental blockade that is 18x12m.

Quick note: Lightning splash and its morph, all of them are missing tick and that is a bug going on for 2 patches now. otherwise, Mystic orb is the skill that dealt most damage and that is only by doing 15 ticks as supposed to the full 20 ticks. I did another test to see if the sorcerer passive energized will do any good against Destruction staff passive penetrating magic:

Liquid lightning Vs. Elemental blockade

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ykFPRxVA-BZ-2O6NzFE-r4p8yq0xv1i3
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gkO-h3G4nDix40NvC5CvYBp7N_fVsiJS

Lightning flood Vs. Unstable wall

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DnvGgRb1VWmjdPeloeS128LEadhKvjh1
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1S7y43hq8sravnzhWucU4FIgHGn4QuCve

Synergy damage is very situational as some people don't even bother using synergies or synergy cooldown making you rely on you teamates to do most damage rather than on your own. Try to compare lightning spalsh and its morphs to bone and its morphs is well as mystic orb since all of them have the synergy component to them.

Other than RP and synergy spam in trials, this skill is very uselss in both pve and pvp. It really needs some serious love.

idk · March 2020

It would make more sense to include actual numbers from your comparison instead of generalizing and making us do your work for you.

I did compare. My Mystic orb is one level shy of being maxed since I used to use the other morph on this sorc, but I am showing 1474 per tick for Liquid Lightning and only 1290 for the orbs. The synergy is 9045 and 8703, respectively, and of course, any "situational" aspect to synergies would be pretty much the same. A fire staff was equipped for this comparison.

Of note, I see 1291 for the Blockade of fire, which is consistent with the orbs.

Maybe my character is bugged or something but the numbers I am seeing do not support your claim. I even compared the skill to one of the skills you told us to.

Edit: As Mindcr0w pointed out, orbs tick every 1/2 second, whereas LL and Blockade ticks every second. Orbs is a skill that moves so it is not likely to do damage to the same target over the same duration as LL and Blockade.

In other words, it is more appropriate to compare LL to blockade than orbs, and the numbers show LL outperforms blockade.

Mindcr0w · March 2020

Are you accounting for Orb ticking every 0.5 seconds while LL ticks every 1 second?

idk · March 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Are you accounting for Orb ticking every 0.5 seconds while LL ticks every 1 second?

No. I did not. However, the orb continues to move through the target. Unless the target is moving it is not likely to get the same number of ticks as the full duration of LL.

The WoE does tick only once per second and is a better AoE to compare LL too. I will edit my first post to note this. The two of us have done the leg work OP could not be bothered to do.

universal_wrath · March 2020

idk wrote: »

It would make more sense to include actual numbers from your comparison instead of generalizing and making us do your work for you.

I did compare. My Mystic orb is one level shy of being maxed since I used to use the other morph on this sorc, but I am showing 1474 per tick for Liquid Lightning and only 1290 for the orbs. The synergy is 9045 and 8703, respectively, and of course, any "situational" aspect to synergies would be pretty much the same. A fire staff was equipped for this comparison.

Of note, I see 1291 for the Blockade of fire, which is consistent with the orbs.

Maybe my character is bugged or something but the numbers I am seeing do not support your claim. I even compared the skill to one of the skills you told us to.

Edit: As Mindcr0w pointed out, orbs tick every 1/2 second, whereas LL and Blockade ticks every second. Orbs is a skill that moves so it is not likely to do damage to the same target over the same duration as LL and Blockade.

In other words, it is more appropriate to compare LL to blockade than orbs, and the numbers show LL outperforms blockade.

I do apolgize for not putting numbers as I'm away from home and I cannot get to the game for few days.

Regarding the comperison, you should compare liquid lightening to elemntal blockade, it more apriopriate since both morphs increase time. Also, lighning flood should be compared to unstable wall since both morphs add dmg as primary function. For the first comperson, blockade will have more status effect uptime resulting in more dmg. Unstable wall will outperform lightning flood if you take into consideration the status effect as welll as the last burst dmg it deal as supposed to the dmg tide to a synregy in lighning flood. As for mystic orbs, what you said is true that it moves so most targets will not recieve the full ticks of it. I should note that the bigger the target the more the orbs hit. Putting that aside, I think you only need mystic orb to hit 12-14 times to outperform both morphs of lightning splash.

Septimus_Magna · March 2020

Many sorc skills are pretty useless in PVE, most dps sorc builds only run curse and cfrags. Mages Fury is useful in PVP but not worth a slot in PVE, Lightning Splash is too expensive for the damage it deals and the lack luster synergy.

I think the Lightning Splash should do something like Engulfing Flames, affected enemies take 10% extra shock damage for 10 seconds or it increases the off-balance duration for example. Its could be a small buff for mag sorcs and bring more utility to sorc tanks/healers. Maybe mag sorcs would be able to run a shock staff on the back bar, which fits the sorc class identity better than a fire staff.

For Mages Fury its easier because its actually good in PVP. There could be one morph for PVP, with a delayed execute burst like the current version. And one morph for PVE with an instant execute burst with an additional effect.

Grianasteri · March 2020

Purely from a tool tip perspective, I have never understood the negativity surrounding Lightning splash... it still compares well with other aoe/dot alternatives as far as I can tell.

Is it the cost to damage ratio thats the issue?

JinMori · March 2020

Revert dots to elsweir level.

I came back today and yesterday to try out a few things, and Jesus Christ, i was shocked, dots like poison injection are not even worth keeping up, which is ludicrous.

Imagine poison injection not being worth it on st.... And the majority of aoe dots were way overnerfed.

This is a joke.

Also, the majority of dots are barely worth keeping up, you could get about the same dps without them, and some are just a dps loss.

Just absolute trash.

They went from way too strong, to way too weak, zos doesn't know wtf they are doing, they are chickens without head, and this is after some dots were buffed! The original dragonhold iteration was insane.

universal_wrath · March 2020

Grianasteri wrote: »

Purely from a tool tip perspective, I have never understood the negativity surrounding Lightning splash... it still compares well with other aoe/dot alternatives as far as I can tell.

Is it the cost to damage ratio thats the issue?

Not just a cost to dmg ratio. The skill is plain and not overing any utility to caster or group, even radius is too small in liquid lightning morph to be a proper AOE skill.

Having to rely on my teammates to get most dmg of the skill is very bad design. Many people don't use synregies, and if the do, they have to be in melee range aka tanks and melee specs. The thing could be said about the major berserk synergy tide to storm atronach, it is either wasted or activated by tanks.

Necromancer boneyard has a morph that can be activated by own caster and other is applying major breach and fracture, even without those 2 effects, the skill has 50%dmg incrase when consuming corpses. Mystic orb while it is moblie it last 10 secs and ticks 20 time with 8m radius it deals around 60% more dmg than lightning flood.

WrathOfInnos · March 2020

Yes agreed, Flood/Liquid is by far the worst class AoE DoT, and is still not worth slotting even after the cost reduction. The base damage is lower than Path and Winter’s Revenge, the duration cannot compete with Eruption, its much smaller than Ritual of Retribution and lacks the utility of off-healing, and it doesn’t have any additional damage like Burning Light from Blazing Spear ticks. Boneyard is probably the most similar to Flood/Liquid in size, duration, and providing a synergy, but Boneyard gets a 50% damage increase from using it on a corpse (which is fairly easy to accomplish) and debuffs enemies.

Part of the problem is that the skill design is flat out weaker than others. The other part of the problem is that both morphs end before their final tick, so they are actually 9 and 13s long. I discuss this in more detail here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/510470/lightning-splash-flood-liquid-duration-bug-missing-last-tick#latest

Fixing that duration bug wouldn’t quite make the skill comparable to other class AoE’s, but it would be a little closer.

Dracane · March 2020

Wall of elements has a better area of effect and when using unstable wall, more damage or more utility when using blockade.
Wall of elements also grants 1,3k light attack damage when used with the maelstrom staff.

So I am sorry @idk this is not supportable. Lightning splash is pitiful compared to other aoe's of its kind in terms of damage and area and I have never used it since they nerfed it by over 100% damage. Wall of elements I still use for the off balance and for the light attack damage.

Lightning splash was the sole reason why sorcerer dps was competitive, almost. I liked it alot. Now, lightning splash is weak, as are pets. Sorcerer has no dps tools left and hence, is the utter trash tier of magicka dps. A supposed DPS class is vastly outperformed by alleged tanking classes that should never be able to have that much more dps.

zvavi · March 2020

idk wrote: »

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Are you accounting for Orb ticking every 0.5 seconds while LL ticks every 1 second?

No. I did not. However, the orb continues to move through the target. Unless the target is moving it is not likely to get the same number of ticks as the full duration of LL.

The WoE does tick only once per second and is a better AoE to compare LL too. I will edit my first post to note this. The two of us have done the leg work OP could not be bothered to do.

I call ***. Even if target is standing, you can easily make it tick 14~ times with right positioning, all 20 ticks are also easily in if the boss has a huge hit box (vSS, vAS) when i parse my orb hits around 17 ticks, sometimes 18. Even with bad 12 ticks it deals more damage. (even if you are inside the boss and the hitbox is literally 0, u will get at least 9 ticks)

YandereGirlfriend · March 2020

Does anyone know the actual movespeed on Orbs? Is it like 2 meters per second or slightly greater? I looked at the raw skill data on UESP but could not locate the information.

If you had a worst-case scenario (e.g. targeting a small, human-size boss) and had perfect positioning at 8 meters away, you'd get ~16 ticks out of the skill and leave ~4 on the table. Since most bosses are larger than that though, you should get all 20 ticks. IF the movespeed is 2 meters per second. AND it stands still.

Unrelated, but my Draugrkin Grip set loves Orbs and those double-rate ticks. Turns it into a ~5k unbuffed tooltip for DPS.

Back on topic, LL definitely needs some love. Especially compared to something like Boneyard which does decent DPS, covers a greater area, provides a synergy, AND can be Empowered.

I love the idea stated above of turning it into a magDK-like "Enemies take 10% additional Shock Damage" ability or even "Does 50% more damage to Concussed enemies" or something. I like the former idea more as anything that gives Sorcs incentive to actually, you know, use Shock Damage instead of Flame is a wise move for class identity and uniqueness.

zvavi · March 2020

@YandereGirlfriend 90% sure it is 2m/s. Also 8 meter is unrealistic, since zaan, therefore i said 14 ez ticks and not 16, and yes, thats on small bosses hit boxes.

And yes, sorcs need some love.

idk · March 2020

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It would make more sense to include actual numbers from your comparison instead of generalizing and making us do your work for you.

I did compare. My Mystic orb is one level shy of being maxed since I used to use the other morph on this sorc, but I am showing 1474 per tick for Liquid Lightning and only 1290 for the orbs. The synergy is 9045 and 8703, respectively, and of course, any "situational" aspect to synergies would be pretty much the same. A fire staff was equipped for this comparison.

Of note, I see 1291 for the Blockade of fire, which is consistent with the orbs.

Maybe my character is bugged or something but the numbers I am seeing do not support your claim. I even compared the skill to one of the skills you told us to.

Edit: As Mindcr0w pointed out, orbs tick every 1/2 second, whereas LL and Blockade ticks every second. Orbs is a skill that moves so it is not likely to do damage to the same target over the same duration as LL and Blockade.

In other words, it is more appropriate to compare LL to blockade than orbs, and the numbers show LL outperforms blockade.

I do apolgize for not putting numbers as I'm away from home and I cannot get to the game for few days.

Regarding the comperison, you should compare liquid lightening to elemntal blockade, it more apriopriate since both morphs increase time. Also, lighning flood should be compared to unstable wall since both morphs add dmg as primary function. For the first comperson, blockade will have more status effect uptime resulting in more dmg. Unstable wall will outperform lightning flood if you take into consideration the status effect as welll as the last burst dmg it deal as supposed to the dmg tide to a synregy in lighning flood. As for mystic orbs, what you said is true that it moves so most targets will not recieve the full ticks of it. I should note that the bigger the target the more the orbs hit. Putting that aside, I think you only need mystic orb to hit 12-14 times to outperform both morphs of lightning splash.

I did what you asked, what chose not to provide when you created this thread. As a result, your OP gives Zos zero reason to give the complaint any consideration as it looks like all the rest of the threads that complain about something but cannot articulate the issue and provide real information as to what the issue is.

Maybe when you get home, you can edit the OP and give it some substance. With all the threads created each day, I doubt Zos has time to piece together tidbits of information from the various posts in a thread so they can put together a whole picture. I would not bother.

Taktak · March 2020

i'm agree 100% with you......Lightning Splash is Underperfoming compare to other AOEs like orb
here is my test on 3m dummy test without cp:
class: magsorc
buffs: major sorcery
race: high elf

weapon:

Necrotic Orb (Base ability):

Liquid Lightning:

Lightning Flood:

we can see here that base morph of orb can do more dmg than Lightning Splash and it all morphs even if orb hit for less duration

same thing for their synergy
it's really sad to see one of the best AOEs in game got nerf so hard