What would you like to see with champion points?

JinMori · March 2020

Personally i think many are looking at this at the wrong way.

The problem is not cp, the problem is everything around it, power creep is only as bad as they let it be, progression system are cool, but the game needs to be balanced around it.

I am worried that zos solution will be just to nerf cp into the ground and make it mostly cosmetic, which is the easy way out, and what they pretty much always take, if that is the case, when that happens it will probably be the final nail in the coffin for me, iv'e already left the game for long periods of time in morrowind and after elsweyr, because of the general direction of the game, which is let's make the least possible effort. I am honestly missing the incremental cp increase each patch that we were getting, at this point the % increase wasn't even that much.

I don't know if you noticed but cp was already heavily nerfed, once it used to give resources up to almost 60 % more at full cp, that is no longer the case, you get 20 % at 300, and that is it, that is a pretty big nerf.

What i want from zos is to counter power progression with new system to keep the power in check so we do not one shot bosses with 2 abilities, it requires more effort, but in the end it makes for a more satisfying product.

How could they do that? Well, other games have already done it honestly, so it's not hard at all, just take some ideas here and there and make a system of your own.

Arunei · March 2020

Honestly, making it 'mostly cosmetic' would probably be the best way to balance it between people who have any considerable number, and newer people who have none. This applies not just to PvP since we have the 1-49 and No CP campaigns, but also for people doing PvE. Look at how many people judge how 'capable' someone else is by CP alone, when all CP really means is how long you've been playing the game and means absolutely nothing in regards to skill for any given content. A person can get to max CP just by exploring, questing, doing crafting writs, and so on, especially given the fact that we get several exp scrolls every month from daily login rewards.

So really, making CP have less to do with actual combat stuff and more to do with the world itself would probably be the best thing. We can keep some of the combat things, like the CP that let us regen resources more or increase our ability to mitigate damage, but a lot of them could stand to be reworked into other useful buffs. Give us one that puts a perma increase on the number of gold we get from all sources, give us one that increases mount movement speed, give us one that increases the chance of getting epic loot from all sources, and maybe a CP that even grants a small chance to get gold stuff. Maybe introduce a new combat one that increases the effectiveness of enchantments (it's not a direct "here have more damage" CP since not all enchants are damage ones). Maybe make one that increases the amount of fall damage you can take, or in the same vein decreases how much fall damage you take.

There are a lot of things ZOS could do with CP that don't put a majority of the focus on combat buffs. We already have a lot of things like sets, skills, potions, and enchantments that do that, and maybe some of the CP trees we have could actually be translated into new sets or something. It would let ZOS do more stuff with CP overall.

JinMori · March 2020

Arunei wrote: »

Honestly, making it 'mostly cosmetic' would probably be the best way to balance it between people who have any considerable number, and newer people who have none. This applies not just to PvP since we have the 1-49 and No CP campaigns, but also for people doing PvE. Look at how many people judge how 'capable' someone else is by CP alone, when all CP really means is how long you've been playing the game and means absolutely nothing in regards to skill for any given content. A person can get to max CP just by exploring, questing, doing crafting writs, and so on, especially given the fact that we get several exp scrolls every month from daily login rewards.

So really, making CP have less to do with actual combat stuff and more to do with the world itself would probably be the best thing. We can keep some of the combat things, like the CP that let us regen resources more or increase our ability to mitigate damage, but a lot of them could stand to be reworked into other useful buffs. Give us one that puts a perma increase on the number of gold we get from all sources, give us one that increases mount movement speed, give us one that increases the chance of getting epic loot from all sources, and maybe a CP that even grants a small chance to get gold stuff. Maybe introduce a new combat one that increases the effectiveness of enchantments (it's not a direct "here have more damage" CP since not all enchants are damage ones). Maybe make one that increases the amount of fall damage you can take, or in the same vein decreases how much fall damage you take.

There are a lot of things ZOS could do with CP that don't put a majority of the focus on combat buffs. We already have a lot of things like sets, skills, potions, and enchantments that do that, and maybe some of the CP trees we have could actually be translated into new sets or something. It would let ZOS do more stuff with CP overall.

I absolutely disagree on cosmetics, they should improve them, for example, "useless" cp should be reworked, enchantments being stronger would be fine, but the problem is not cp itself as i said before.

Basically people are blaming the symptoms instead of the disease, that's how i see it, and how it is.

Was artifact power in wow legion a problem from a balancing prospective? No, because the game was balanced around it, even though artifact power provided bonuses that were STRONGER than cp.

You got some ludicrously powerful stuff that basically more than doubled your power, and not a lot of people complained about it honestly, they complained about other things that i agreed with, like ap not being at least character bound instead of spec, which meant swapping specs was a nightmare, but that has nothing to do with balancing, but rather with blizzard being an ass. Instead what you can see is that despite the problems, people still liked artifacts a lot.

So again, the problem is not cp.

oXI_Viper_IXo · March 2020

So far this combat team hasn't proven that they are capable of changing anything that makes the game more interesting or enjoyable so at this point, I honestly hope they don't touch it.

SirDuckman · March 2020

What if the CP was removed completely and instead, they implement a system much like all the other Elder Scroll games? You have a tree that branches out in so many different areas that you put points in. Look how the tree is implemented in Blades.

If you're a full warrior, obviously most points would go into that tree as well as armor, blocking, resistances, etc...

Left over points would be more cosmetic and easier game play like the treasure hunter, quicker harvesting, etc...

Pending on how the trees are organized, it could very well define more class identity.

Tandor · March 2020

I'd like to see the number of CPs retained but with CPs only able to be activated on characters at level 50. That would help with the argument that "the overland content is too easy for new characters with a gazillion CPs".

JinMori · March 2020

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

So far this combat team hasn't proven that they are capable of changing anything that makes the game more interesting or enjoyable so at this point, I honestly hope they don't touch it.

What i want to see is not for them to not make any changes, but rather to not always take the least effort solution.

Arunei · March 2020

The thing is the way anyone sees something doesn't mean that's 'how it is'. There are plenty of people who would disagree with you on the power creep, everyone seems to have their own idea of what it is and what causes it and how to fix it. I personally don't care about it too much, I don't PvP and when I do group content like dungeons it's pretty much only with friends these days. But making CP (more) combat-centric, in my opinion, won't fix anything, nor will keeping it as it is now. Too many people want to base whether a person is 'worthy' of doing content on their CP, to the point of kicking people below their accepted standard.

Maybe what they could do is split CP into two separate systems, where one focuses on the combat-specific side of things for people who want that kind of progression, and another system that focuses more on general buffs (fluff buffs, because rhymes are fun). And maybe make it so a person's progression on the combat side isn't as obvious to people who would judge on that alone, because regardless of what CP focuses on, at the end of the day you get it for earning ANY kind of experience.

Maybe they could tie getting CP into doing actual kinds of content? So like...do a dungeon, get dungeon-oriented CP. Do some PvP, get PvP-oriented CP. Do crafting writs and questing? Get CP pertaining to those things. One thing people always talk about here is encouraging people to try other parts of the game, so maybe making progression tied to certain things would help? And if you don't do certain things like PvP or crafting or whatever, it's fine because the kind of progression you'd get from doing those things would only really benefit that 'section', so you're not missing anything. That way at least the CP you have would correspond more to your ability in any given content.

Edited for clarity.

remilafo · March 2020

Path of exile passive tree..

JinMori · March 2020

Arunei wrote: »

The thing is the way anyone sees something doesn't mean that's 'how it is'. There are plenty of people who would disagree with you on the power creep, everyone seems to have their own idea of what it is and what causes it and how to fix it. I personally don't care about it too much, I don't PvP and when I do group content like dungeons it's pretty much only with friends these days. But making CP (more) combat-centric, in my opinion, won't fix anything, nor will keeping it as it is now. Too many people want to base whether a person is 'worthy' of doing content on their CP, to the point of kicking people below their accepted standard.

Maybe what they could do is split CP into two separate systems, where one focuses on the combat-specific side of things for people who want that kind of progression, and another system that focuses more on general buffs (fluff buffs, because rhymes are fun). And maybe make it so a person's progression on the combat side isn't as obvious to people who would judge on that alone, because regardless of what CP focuses on, at the end of the day you get it for earning ANY kind of experience.

Maybe they could tie getting CP into doing actual kinds of content? So like...do a dungeon, get CP. Do some PvP, get CP. Do crafting writs and questing? Get CP. One thing people always talk about here is encouraging people to try other parts of the game, so maybe making progression tied to certain things would help? And if you don't do certain things like PvP or crafting or whatever, it's fine because maybe the kind of progression you'd get from doing those things would only really benefit that 'section'? So doing crafting stuff wouldn't give you PvP-oriented CP, for example. That way at least the CP you have would correspond more to your ability in any given content.

Sorry, this is not a matter of opinion anymore, call me pretentious, but i am correct, because that's what we have seen in other games, and that's how it works.

Power creep is only a problem as long as the devs do not do anything to counter it. People are blaming the symptom instead of the disease, the disease is not cp, but rather the devs not balancing around it.

I am not saying to make the game harder, but rather to give more options, that is always the better solution.

You can disagree on other things like, i do not like cp giving so much power to the player for example, that is an opinion, and there really isn't a lot to say about whether it's objective or not, because it isn't, it;s just a preference. But the point i am making here is correct and objective.

This is something i think people need to understand better, ill make you an example to better understand the argument made here about how i am correct on this issue.

Let's take for example nerfed dots:

What is an opinion, an opinion is, i like damage being more frontloaded, or i like more damage on my dots, personally i think both are fine. That is an opinion

What is a fact instead?

As a result of dots being nerfed and front loaded damage not being increased the overall dps has been decreased, that is not up to discussion because that's how it is.

Same thing for cp, cp is just incremental power gain, if powercreep appears it's not the fault of cp, but rather of the devs not accounting for the dps increase even though they knew it would happen, so what are the options? You either nerf classes and abilities in general, or you counter this incremental gain with something else, for example, a new mode.

TheRealCherokeee3 · March 2020

There are only two trials off the top of my head that would be very difficult if not maybe impossible if they were to do away with champion points or severely nerf them into the ground. Other than those two, honestly most everything else is doable and fine. I do agree with you about power creep. It feels like I have referenced that often lately in fact.
I'm not really sure how they can address champion points, which I imagine might be one of the reasons it's taken some time to get around to them. In my mind it isn't so much the champion point system as it is sets and so forth that have contributed so much to power creep. It feels like we should choose between one or the other to balance things out at least to some reasonable degree. But when you combine strong sets plus 810 champion points that nets you some heavy stats. The only thing I can think of...is to make champion points more of a utility aspect rather than a dps/defense focus. This way dps and so forth are mainly attributed by your sets and arrangement. Champion points would then factor maybe things like minor speed buffs or temporary invisibility when doing "x", or the ability to use potions without having to stand still dang it! lol I dunno they may not be the best ideas but something along these lines that introduce useful attributes without buffing dps and defense too much. I like progression and "getting gud" as much as the next player...but I will say there has been such a steady issue with nerfs each patch and having to build to address them that sometimes the fun of the game goes away. I would love to have both a solid gameplay experience plus some fun added in again. Before battlegrounds came out, I used to love having high speed set ups. Was it game breaking OP wreck everyone? no. But it was a fun doing Thieves Guild quests super fast or other similar situations. Then they capped speed to account for BG's and not long after that alot of other "fun" setups were slowly nerfed to provide fair competition. Maybe champion points could bring back some of these fun attributes in incremental ways so we have things to look forward to. But also maybe all that is incredibly nieve too

Arunei · March 2020

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

So far this combat team hasn't proven that they are capable of changing anything that makes the game more interesting or enjoyable so at this point, I honestly hope they don't touch it.

They've already said a while back they're working on a rework. They just have no idea what that rework will be or when it'll happen, because of course they don't. This is ZOS after all. Then again I guess on this matter one does need to be fair, given how ingrained CP is these days and how much it touches. Unfortunately that also means whenever it does end up getting changed, there's that much they can break with it x__x.

idk · March 2020

First, CP has had little to do with the power creep. Power Creep has mostly been due to changes Zos made to the skills and sets they have added to the game. The effect of the said CP since Morrowind has been minimal.

CP should provide a specific bonus to whatever it effects instead of making it % based as much if it still is. This approach would make it more straight forward, reduce the load on the server. It could also lead to the elimination of non-CP PvP since it prevents huge bonuses that we have now. Ofc, I would not be against simplification since many players do not understand the difference between the different damage types such as Direct, DoT, et al.

Abyssmol · March 2020

I second the idea of making CP cosmetics only. As you earn more CP, your character starts looking a little bit different... The base game dungeons and some of the DLCs are way too easy now. They give no challenge anymore and therefore boring...

JinMori · March 2020

idk wrote: »

First, CP has had little to do with the power creep. Power Creep has mostly been due to changes Zos made to the skills and sets they have added to the game. The effect of the said CP since Morrowind has been minimal.

CP should provide a specific bonus to whatever it effects instead of making it % based as much if it still is. This approach would make it more straight forward, reduce the load on the server. It could also lead to the elimination of non-CP PvP since it prevents huge bonuses that we have now. Ofc, I would not be against simplification since many players do not understand the difference between the different damage types such as Direct, DoT, et al.

Agree actually, cp hasn't contributed to power creep as other things added in the game.

But the point really applies to everything, not just cp.

For me as long as cp do not become inconsequential, i am fine with it.

Sanguinor2 · March 2020

A Progression System I found interesting in another game was earning Points to change abilities and unlock class specific passive buffs that applied to your whole Group. Each ability had some generic buffs like increasing Damage, debuff uptime or decreasing cost and also some unique stuff like adding a new buff or debuff, adding some healing etc.
I dont know how applicable that would be to ESO tho since it was a cooldown based MMO and we already have different Morphs here.

LeHarrt91 · March 2020

I think that CP should still give certain damage bonuses but instead of % bonuses make them flat bonuses and maybe turn the CP stars into passives so you have to spend a large amount to get the good passives.

Arunei · March 2020

@JinMori
I wasn't saying I agree or disagree either way, I was just pointing out that someone perceiving something as any given way doesn't always make that the case, and there are plenty of people who I've seen say x is to blame or x is to blame and this is how to fix it. I don't really have an opinion either way really, as it doesn't affect me, so I leave the whole debate to people who it does affect.

Regardless of that, this isn't a discussion about power creep or what anyone thinks it is or isn't, and it's also not about agreeing with whether someone thinks making CP any given way is the best or not. It was, from the title, what we would like to see done with CP. And in my opinion, I'd like seeing CP do less with combat and more to do with stuff in general. We already have so many things that give whatever buffs for combat (or debuffs in the case of CP like Befoul), making CP less about combat than it is and more to do with the game in general seems like they could do so much more with it.

Like I said, maybe certain CP could be moved to armor sets, update the ones that barely see any use because they're generally useless in one way or another. Moving certain utility CP and the like to armor sets might also increase build diversity, since you have these sets that could give unique bonuses instead of the "increase spell damage" or "increase weapon damage" or "increase critical damage" sets that a lot of people tend to run.

Asardes · March 2020

Remove them from the game entirely, link the non combat buffs like harvesting to maxing out crafting, speed buff to maxed out mount, link the stats buff to combat skill leveling. Then re-balance all PvE content around reducing incoming damage and mobs HP.

D3N7157 · March 2020

I like the current system. Don’t change it.

Arunei · March 2020

D3N7157 wrote: »

I like the current system. Don’t change it.

At the rate they're going with the rework, you might end up getting your wish lol. It's been at least 2 years I believe since they put the cap on CP because they intend to rework it, and in all this time we haven't heard even a breath of information on what the plan for CP is.

YandereGirlfriend · March 2020

@SirDuckman had a really fantastic suggestion that went in a direction that I never really thought of before: To translate CP into a "Perk Tree" a la Skyrim and let players add a bit more "RPG" into their MMORPG.

I could see it going one of two ways:

1. Like the above example: construct a series of tiered Perk Trees and let players choose what they want. Tier 1 perks cost 25 CP, Tier 2 cost 50 CP, tier 3 cost 100 CP, etc. and you choose perks until all of your CP is spent. Ideally, these perks would be relatively simple to compute with no weird proc conditions or RNG to tax the servers with.

2. Similar to current structure but convert all percentages to flat values like they did with racial bonuses. Give players access to modifying ALL of their underlying stats not just the ones that show up on the basic character sheet. So let us pump up our movement speed or detection range or shock resistance or AoE damage or Spell Damage when using frost abilities, etc. But again, no percentages or cheesy RNG.

The final (if controversial) thing that I would like to see is the elimination of CP PvP. Others can make the argument better than I can, but it's an inferior brand of PvP compared to BG/non-CP, it excludes new players, and it is harder on the servers. That's three strikes - it should be out. Such a move would also merge the community into a single format and boost overall campaign populations.

dazee · March 2020

I would like to see minimal changes, if any.

Probably the only change to CP I am sure would be positive, would be to make the CP stars not affect weapon enchants at all, and buff weapon enchants to compensate.

This would allow people far more freedom in the type of enchant they use, allowing for better power/character fantasies.

Like, if I want to be a warrior with a burning flaming sword, I should not be gimped becuase my CP doesn't buff fire enchants, it buffs poison and disease.

Make CP not affect enchants at all, and adjust enchant values.

Snaggel · March 2020

remilafo wrote: »

Path of exile passive tree..

As much as I liked the passive tree, you simply had to specialize into using one weapon/spec/skill to make it as powerful as possible, leaving little room for versatility. Don't forget that skills respecifications and regearing are expensive. And besides, having to balance around each extreme that a highly specialized passive node tree would allow would be nightmare to balance, especially for pvp.

I do agree that ESO could loan some concepts from POE (or other games) to improve the passive power tied to progression system. For example, jewel sockets and "double-edged-sword" keystone passives are a fantastic idea I'd love to see being tried and tested in ESO.

As it is right now, the whole CP system is rather boring and uninspiring and could use some more interactivity. More interactions like the Tactician CP keystone that you can play around with (at least in PvP) and less stat checks, with CP progression unlocking more options to tune your character in a special, conditional way rather than just slapping some bonus stats on them.

Langdon64 · March 2020

Trade them in for Crown Store items. That way, players can be rewarded for actually playing the game.

JinMori · March 2020

Wrong post

Katahdin · March 2020

Tandor wrote: »

I'd like to see the number of CPs retained but with CPs only able to be activated on characters at level 50. That would help with the argument that "the overland content is too easy for new characters with a gazillion CPs".

I disagree.

I earned them, if I want to use them then I should be able to.
Anyone that doesnt want it to be "too easy" while leveling can CHOOSE not to use the CP in the first place.

Tornaad · March 2020

A friend of mine gave a suggestion I would love to see.
Use champion points to customize each ability and bring in a unique feel to each class and skill.

YandereGirlfriend · March 2020

Zuboko wrote: »

A friend of mine gave a suggestion I would love to see.
Use champion points to customize each ability and bring in a unique feel to each class and skill.

Now THAT would be cool.

If you had Morro/Oblivion-style "spell crafting" but for all of your active abilities, so you could spend CP to increase duration or intensity, etc. within some kind of overall parameters.

Hip_Uncle_Z · March 2020

Since I doubt they'd ever be removed entirely, I want them greatly reduced and the majority of points (after max gear level 160) turned into cosmetic effects or cosmetic unlocks.

Bradyfjord · March 2020

They might consider adding traits that give bonuses for activating synergies, and give bonuses to the group. So solo players might choose 'selfish' traits, while group oriented players may want to choose traits that give bonuses to the group. Since group bonuses would be buffing several players they would probably be smaller than the solo traits, but balanced so that group builds aggregate into a larger whole.