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If the testing on PC didn’t show up these issues

MJallday
MJallday
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Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
They can nail it?
  • Xandreia_
    Xandreia_
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    I honestly wouldnt mind if they took the entire game down for a few days to fix it.... but that's never gonna happen 😂
  • Saelent
    Saelent
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    Xandreia_ wrote: »
    I honestly wouldnt mind if they took the entire game down for a few days to fix it.... but that's never gonna happen 😂

    What you you think this is? An engine that has to be stopped to work on it?
    The ‘taking down’ effect was the full reload, now patches won’t (and as far as I’m aware, don’t) take as long, and what do you think a few days would do? The code has to be written which takes months.

    So take your ‘few days’ and shove it in the same bin with ‘total rebuild of the game’.
  • RefLiberty
    RefLiberty
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    Xandreia_ wrote: »
    I honestly wouldnt mind if they took the entire game down for a few days to fix it.... but that's never gonna happen 😂

    That is not how that stuff works.
    You have Dev version to work on, which you push to PTS and then to Live ver during maintenance. Nothing has to be taken down.
  • TheFM
    TheFM
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    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.
  • bearbelly
    bearbelly
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    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)
    Edited by bearbelly on March 7, 2020 12:59PM
  • TheFM
    TheFM
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    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    Except even with low population akin to the PTS pop, you get lag and busted mechanics now on live. Its quite clear they put something in that was not tested at all. They could simply play their own game atm on random pcs around the world and see what the problems are during primetime, instead they cling to their closed servers.
  • MJallday
    MJallday
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    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    Modern automation testing tools (in fact most tools since 2010) can simulate load - so I don’t buy this at all
  • idk
    idk
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    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    @TheFM Not the case. The PTS was up for several weeks for PC to test. So Zos does test on "random" PCs. Much of it is so few players test anything on the PTS and that server never gets the load we have on live. This testing is done worldwide as both PC/EU and PC/NA have access to the PTS the entire time. If their characters are not there they can use the templates to create a character.

    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.
  • Kalik_Gold
    Kalik_Gold
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    They need a console PTS. PC guys seem to miss a lot of ish. Just put it with the slider NA > EU > PTS and only allow login during testing periods.


    Edit : not sure how many PC players play with no add ons to even tell when regular ish is broken.


    .
    Edited by Kalik_Gold on March 7, 2020 3:27PM
    Main Character:
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP Pure-class:
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: Subclassed
    Two-Big-Horns an Argonian Arcanist (Sorcerer)
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden (Ice-Theme)

    PvP: Specialty
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer (Tank)
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer (Healer)
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade (Bomber)

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight (Tank)
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar (Healer)
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight (Damage)
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Sorcerer (Damage)
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden (Arenas)
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade (Thief)

    Leveling...
    Styx of Akatosh a Goblin*** Arcanist
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Lycan Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    ======
    Passives of another race used for roleplay reasons.
    *Breton
    **Imperial
    ***Argonian




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant
  • Agenericname
    Agenericname
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    TheFM wrote: »
    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    Except even with low population akin to the PTS pop, you get lag and busted mechanics now on live. Its quite clear they put something in that was not tested at all. They could simply play their own game atm on random pcs around the world and see what the problems are during primetime, instead they cling to their closed servers.

    I'm not sure that "akin" is fair. I still got crashes on low pop, as I'm sure everyone did, but as far as I am aware there's no reliable way to tell how many are on at any given time (for us, I'm sure ZOS can). A low pop sever could still easily be 2-3 times larger than the PTS.
  • Long_Distance
    Long_Distance
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    idk wrote: »
    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    So it's on the customers now to ensure QA, right?

    That said, I am coming back to what I said in other threads: Identication of bugs and problems is not the issue here. ZOS in many cases just doesn't fix what's been identified as not working.

    As a rather fun anecdotical evidence I might point you to the gap-closer bug in update 6 (I think). People already in week one of PTS reported that you could gap-close into keeps in Cyrodiil. Nothing was fixed, no reactions.

    But one week after it went live, it was declared an exploit and people even were banned retroactively when doing it.

    So why would anybody go through the effort of testing when it's ignored anyhow?

    Edited by Long_Distance on March 7, 2020 3:49PM
  • TheFM
    TheFM
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    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    @TheFM Not the case. The PTS was up for several weeks for PC to test. So Zos does test on "random" PCs. Much of it is so few players test anything on the PTS and that server never gets the load we have on live. This testing is done worldwide as both PC/EU and PC/NA have access to the PTS the entire time. If their characters are not there they can use the templates to create a character.

    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    Many people did and so did I, none of these issues popped up. Even with the same pop OR LESS at the early hours of thed ay there are more issues than in the PTS, so it is clearly NOT an issue of how many were testing, but an issue of how they are testing the fixes to the patch.
  • TheFM
    TheFM
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    TheFM wrote: »
    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    Except even with low population akin to the PTS pop, you get lag and busted mechanics now on live. Its quite clear they put something in that was not tested at all. They could simply play their own game atm on random pcs around the world and see what the problems are during primetime, instead they cling to their closed servers.

    I'm not sure that "akin" is fair. I still got crashes on low pop, as I'm sure everyone did, but as far as I am aware there's no reliable way to tell how many are on at any given time (for us, I'm sure ZOS can). A low pop sever could still easily be 2-3 times larger than the PTS.

    I stopped being fair when they touted an update that would fix everything which broke more than they promised it would fix.
  • Nestor
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    MJallday wrote: »
    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    Modern automation testing tools (in fact most tools since 2010) can simulate load - so I don’t buy this at all

    They have tools that can replicate the randomness of human players in an open world combat situation? Then why don't we have self driving cars?

    OK, jokes aside, those automation tools can only test Quests and run fixed scripted events. So, it still takes a population to replicate what a population will do to the code.

    And, they are postponing the next incremental patch for the PC as they found some issues.
    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    I used to do thorough testing each PTS cycle and took bug reporting seriously. But after cycle after cycle of reported, game breaking bugs going live despite reports and forum posts, I stopped caring as much. They don’t care about the quality of the code that goes live, why should I?

    I still report really notable issues, but nothing else. Most recently, we told them Sloads was going to be as problematic as it was when introduced, but somehow they were surprised at the outcry when it went live exactly as tested. We told them dots were way overtuned. They ignored us, went live with an “all dot” patch then wildly overreacted by nerfing dots 30%+ shortly after. And for U25 we told them block was dropping intermittently, that the off balance changes were acting strangely, and some other details. One of the biggest issues is that “this is bugged” and “this isn’t working right” reports get drowned out by the high number of testers crying “OMG I hate this change why did you do this thing change it back right now stamp snort swear”. Even browsing the PTS sub forum here will show that. Can you pull out the unbiased bug reports from the shouting? I bet you can’t. And neither can Zeni.

    But...we also don’t give much performance feedback on PTS (besides our specific downloading experience this time around). That’s because we’ve always gotten longer loading screens and weird performance problems on PTS, and we’ve always been told that it’s expected. That it’s because the testing server farm is much smaller than the live one, and has fewer resources, and won’t be an indicator of live performance.

    We would have reported constant crashing. I didn’t have that happen this pts, and I didnt hear of anyone else getting that. But desyncs and casting latency has always been more prevalent on pts, so it wouldn’t have been notable.
    Edited by Reverb on March 7, 2020 4:37PM
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • idk
    idk
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    idk wrote: »
    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    So it's on the customers now to ensure QA, right?

    The reality, fact of the matter, is that it is not possible to find every single bug. The PTS does help find some bugs but even there they cannot get everyone as games like this are fairly complex. Anyone who has played various MMORPGs to any degree knows this. I am pretty sure no one can name a major MMORPG that does not have bugs or one that fixed all the bugs.
  • Long_Distance
    Long_Distance
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    idk wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    So it's on the customers now to ensure QA, right?

    The reality, fact of the matter, is that it is not possible to find every single bug. The PTS does help find some bugs but even there they cannot get everyone as games like this are fairly complex. Anyone who has played various MMORPGs to any degree knows this. I am pretty sure no one can name a major MMORPG that does not have bugs or one that fixed all the bugs.

    I am not sure why you quote me, because you're not refering to my statement, but generally explain that MMORPG will allways have bugs. While I tend to agree with this this update is a whole different thing. The bugs in update 25 reached a level that makes the game unplayable for a big part of its paying customers.

    That's not just some more minor bugs that you can work around.
    Edited by Long_Distance on March 7, 2020 4:48PM
  • idk
    idk
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    TheFM wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    @TheFM Not the case. The PTS was up for several weeks for PC to test. So Zos does test on "random" PCs. Much of it is so few players test anything on the PTS and that server never gets the load we have on live. This testing is done worldwide as both PC/EU and PC/NA have access to the PTS the entire time. If their characters are not there they can use the templates to create a character.

    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    Many people did and so did I, none of these issues popped up. Even with the same pop OR LESS at the early hours of thed ay there are more issues than in the PTS, so it is clearly NOT an issue of how many were testing, but an issue of how they are testing the fixes to the patch.

    Glad you participated. Since you did spend time on the PTS then you are fully aware that the population was extremely small compared to live. As a result, it should be very obvious that issues that present themselves with load and the greater variability of server stress are not and cannot be tested on the PTS due to the low population. So say what you wish but it should be plainly obvious the low PTS population would mean much can be missed and anything dealing with stress cannot properly be tested.
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    So it's on the customers now to ensure QA, right?

    The reality, fact of the matter, is that it is not possible to find every single bug. The PTS does help find some bugs but even there they cannot get everyone as games like this are fairly complex. Anyone who has played various MMORPGs to any degree knows this. I am pretty sure no one can name a major MMORPG that does not have bugs or one that fixed all the bugs.

    I am not sure why you quote me, because you're not refering to my statement, but generally explain that MMORPG will allways have bugs. While I tend to agree with this this update is a whole different thing. The bugs in update 25 reached a level that makes the game unplayable for a big part of its paying customers.

    That's not just some more minor bugs that you can work around.

    Oh no. I was replying to your quote. Very much so.

    I quoted you clearly asking if it is on the customers to ensure QA. I did not alter the words in that question one bit. My reply was just as clear that nothing ensures perfect QA with such a complex product as evidence that every MMORPG has bugs. At that, every MMORPG has bugs that are never fixed based on them still being present years later.
  • Long_Distance
    Long_Distance
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    @TheFM Not the case. The PTS was up for several weeks for PC to test. So Zos does test on "random" PCs. Much of it is so few players test anything on the PTS and that server never gets the load we have on live. This testing is done worldwide as both PC/EU and PC/NA have access to the PTS the entire time. If their characters are not there they can use the templates to create a character.

    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    Many people did and so did I, none of these issues popped up. Even with the same pop OR LESS at the early hours of thed ay there are more issues than in the PTS, so it is clearly NOT an issue of how many were testing, but an issue of how they are testing the fixes to the patch.

    Glad you participated. Since you did spend time on the PTS then you are fully aware that the population was extremely small compared to live. As a result, it should be very obvious that issues that present themselves with load and the greater variability of server stress are not and cannot be tested on the PTS due to the low population. So say what you wish but it should be plainly obvious the low PTS population would mean much can be missed and anything dealing with stress cannot properly be tested.

    There's a couple of ways to mitigate the risks when you move from a test to a live environment with a major change:

    1) You can do the changes incrementally and not deliver everything in one go.
    2) You can encapsulate the changes so that you can have a back up plan to go back to a former state whithout pulling back new content.
    3) You can preemptively lease new hardware ressources.
    4) You can manage the user's expectations by pro-active communication.
    5) You can mitigate user dissatisfaction with prompt reactions to feedback
    6) You can have a dev team on alert to fast fix the most obvious and game breaking bugs.
    ...
    Apparently non of this has been done.

    Edited by Long_Distance on March 7, 2020 5:11PM
  • MJallday
    MJallday
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nestor wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    Modern automation testing tools (in fact most tools since 2010) can simulate load - so I don’t buy this at all

    They have tools that can replicate the randomness of human players in an open world combat situation? Then why don't we have self driving cars?

    OK, jokes aside, those automation tools can only test Quests and run fixed scripted events. So, it still takes a population to replicate what a population will do to the code.

    And, they are postponing the next incremental patch for the PC as they found some issues.

    Actually again, no you don’t.

    Nothing quite simulates human behaviour - but you can load or stress test very easily mimicking behaviour based on the most intensive processes, Every software house in the world worth their salt stress tests their software and hardware.

    Except zos it seems
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    @TheFM Not the case. The PTS was up for several weeks for PC to test. So Zos does test on "random" PCs. Much of it is so few players test anything on the PTS and that server never gets the load we have on live. This testing is done worldwide as both PC/EU and PC/NA have access to the PTS the entire time. If their characters are not there they can use the templates to create a character.

    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    Many people did and so did I, none of these issues popped up. Even with the same pop OR LESS at the early hours of thed ay there are more issues than in the PTS, so it is clearly NOT an issue of how many were testing, but an issue of how they are testing the fixes to the patch.

    Glad you participated. Since you did spend time on the PTS then you are fully aware that the population was extremely small compared to live. As a result, it should be very obvious that issues that present themselves with load and the greater variability of server stress are not and cannot be tested on the PTS due to the low population. So say what you wish but it should be plainly obvious the low PTS population would mean much can be missed and anything dealing with stress cannot properly be tested.

    There's a couple of ways to mitigate the risks when you move from a test to a live environment with a major change:

    1) You can do the changes incrementally and not deliver everything in one go.
    2) You can encapsulate the changes so that you can have a back up plan to go back to a former state whithout pulling back new content.
    3) You can preemptively lease new hardware ressources.
    4) You can manage the user's expectations by pro-active communication.
    5) You can mitigate user dissatisfaction with prompt reactions to feedback
    6) You can have a dev team on alert to fast fix the most obvious and game breaking bugs.
    ...
    Apparently non of this has been done.

    1. Zos does do incremental patches Even their ”performance improvement” plan is being stepped out over several updates.
    2. Pretty sure could roll back this last update if that was the smart way to go.
    3. You are assuming the issue is with hardware resources.
    4. I agree Zos could so a better job with communication.
    5. This is the same as 4.
    6. If you read Gina’s ”known issue” thread they were in it quickly. That doesn't mean it fixed quickly as the root of the problem and solutions are not immediately obvious.

    You are clearly making assumptions about what was done.

    Edit: I'm not suggesting Zos is run in an effective or efficient manner. I have cast blame for the issues on ESO where they belong and that's with Matt Firor. I have long believed he is over his head running the company and game and is the source is issues like the poor launch and the game getting to it's current state.
    Edited by idk on March 7, 2020 6:05PM
  • justaquickword
    justaquickword
    ✭✭✭✭
    Why do I get the impression that if the console update comes out this week and everything in the game works like an absolute dream, some of you people would still find something to whine about on this forum?
  • Stebarnz
    Stebarnz
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It will be playable but just get ready for

    PVP- more crashes more load screens and a clunkier combat feel

    PVE- Clunkier feeling combat rotation system where skills cannot be block cancelled now only RD or bar swap cancelled, more delay on skills fired but... a slight improvement in ping and frame rate (might be just me).

    Overland, rp and random questing- no change, never will be.

    However i hope it works great for you guys. PTS feedback is given but rarely heard.
    Edited by Stebarnz on March 7, 2020 6:25PM
  • Alinhbo_Tyaka
    Alinhbo_Tyaka
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    bearbelly wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    Not necessarily. THe problem with PTS testing is that they (or any game) never get enough people to participate with the testing in order to produce the same circumstances as you will get with the full population on Live.

    (i.e., many of the problems are caused by the sheer mass of players present on the Live servers; a condition that can't be properly replicated on the PTS because there aren't anywhere near the same number of players logging on to the PTS.)

    While the randomness of PvP presents some difficulties with load testing PvE should be fairly straight forward. Large scale load testing concepts and tools have been around for decades. It is why the high transaction and large user systems you access multiple times a day work 24/7. As to PvP given the similarities of many of the reported problems between PvP and PvE I suspect more robust PvE testing would have caught many of them for both environments.

    As to the PTS environment. Yes it might surface a performance problem but it should not be the primary means for testing system load. The main thing the PTS should test is compatibility with the huge number of PC configurations in the customer base. This is where ZOS has the best chance of exposing a problem related to some low use graphics card or Windows patch level before being released into the wild.
  • Long_Distance
    Long_Distance
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    TheFM wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    To me it seems they only test on internal servers. If they would've tested this " fix " on random pcs world wide they would've known how busted it is.

    @TheFM Not the case. The PTS was up for several weeks for PC to test. So Zos does test on "random" PCs. Much of it is so few players test anything on the PTS and that server never gets the load we have on live. This testing is done worldwide as both PC/EU and PC/NA have access to the PTS the entire time. If their characters are not there they can use the templates to create a character.

    So the big question is how many hours did you spend testing on the PTS this past cycle.

    Many people did and so did I, none of these issues popped up. Even with the same pop OR LESS at the early hours of thed ay there are more issues than in the PTS, so it is clearly NOT an issue of how many were testing, but an issue of how they are testing the fixes to the patch.

    Glad you participated. Since you did spend time on the PTS then you are fully aware that the population was extremely small compared to live. As a result, it should be very obvious that issues that present themselves with load and the greater variability of server stress are not and cannot be tested on the PTS due to the low population. So say what you wish but it should be plainly obvious the low PTS population would mean much can be missed and anything dealing with stress cannot properly be tested.

    There's a couple of ways to mitigate the risks when you move from a test to a live environment with a major change:

    1) You can do the changes incrementally and not deliver everything in one go.
    2) You can encapsulate the changes so that you can have a back up plan to go back to a former state whithout pulling back new content.
    3) You can preemptively lease new hardware ressources.
    4) You can manage the user's expectations by pro-active communication.
    5) You can mitigate user dissatisfaction with prompt reactions to feedback
    6) You can have a dev team on alert to fast fix the most obvious and game breaking bugs.
    ...
    Apparently non of this has been done.

    1. Zos does do incremental patches Even their ”performance improvement” plan is being stepped out over several updates.
    2. Pretty sure could roll back this last update if that was the smart way to go.
    3. You are assuming the issue is with hardware resources.
    4. I agree Zos could so a better job with communication.
    5. This is the same as 4.
    6. If you read Gina’s ”known issue” thread they were in it quickly. That doesn't mean it fixed quickly as the root of the problem and solutions are not immediately obvious.

    You are clearly making assumptions about what was done.

    Edit: I'm not suggesting Zos is run in an effective or efficient manner. I have cast blame for the issues on ESO where they belong and that's with Matt Firor. I have long believed he is over his head running the company and game and is the source is issues like the poor launch and the game getting to it's current state.

    1. They merge a content release with a "performance" release. Could have been in two steps.
    3. I am not asuming anything. I am saying they could have leased more ressources for the off-chance that if would help. From my experience from the midyear mayham performance (which was quite okish) and what happend right thereafter (an now this is an assumption) they have done something that has degraded the performance afterwards.
    5. and 4. Is not the same. 4. Is like saying beforethe patch: " This going to be a big one, please bear with us if not everything will run as smoothly as expected and be ready to communicate each bug as precicely as possible when you encounter one". 5. Is like having a detailed known issue list and mods all over the place in every forum thread and repeatedly refering to it as politely as possible. Over and over again in every stupid thread and on twitter and on reddit.. As well as giving information on progress and possible problems on a regular basis.
    6. Took more than a day to acknowlege that there's crashes, even after massive complains on the forums and a whole week to fix it. All subsequent bugs will be there for at least another week as there's no patch on Monday. I am pretty sure they were NOT prepared for this at all.
  • MJallday
    MJallday
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why do I get the impression that if the console update comes out this week and everything in the game works like an absolute dream, some of you people would still find something to whine about on this forum?

    Do you honestly believe that’s going to happen? That the console Ed will be perfect?

    Wow
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You could absolutely write bots with basic AI packages to simulate larger battles and stress-test performance.

    They won't be "human" in terms of their reactions to everything but you could easily simulate a maxed siege scenario, ball group, etc. and observe what happens.

    Humans should only really be there to gauge qualitative things that are less suited to automation such as game balance and to use human ingenuity to combine mechanics in ways that might have been unanticipated by the developers. But you absolutely shouldn't be relying on voluntary participation to test server performance.

    Speaking of voluntary participation, ZOS could easily skyrocket the PTS population by introducing unique mounts, motifs, emotes, etc. gained through X hours of playtime on PTS. Use a "carrot" to induce selfish players to come to PTS rather than relying on the altruism of the few current testers.
  • BackStabeth
    BackStabeth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MJallday wrote: »
    Then I’m absolutely dreading the console release

    Any other console players think that ZoS should suspend the release until
    They can nail it?

    They only allow for so many labor hours to test code, once that time is up, it's up and they spit it out. They are not interested in making solid code, they are interested in making a game that people will pay money for.

    I was a WAN admin, responsible for 167 remote locations, all the retail code that went into the POS systems, etc. If I produced code, or allowed bad code to be distributed I would have been fired and would never have been able to get any other job in the computer industry.

    If ZoS distributes bad code, nothing ever happens to anyone. And from what I can tell, it's been bad code all the way down the line, bad decisions driving by profitability and not reliability, over monetization without any regard to customer satisfaction. It's to be expecting from corporations that have grown so big and make so much money that they no longer have to care about individuals so long as they have everyone else willing to shell out money.

    ZoS will never fix issues with ESO unless people stop paying and playing, a significant number of people. If we all went on strike, well then maybe they would get it in their heads they needed to treat their customers with more respect. But that's not going to happen.

    The people making the real decisions live in a bubble world and have no idea, no clue of the frustrations of Players. They do not care so long as each quarter they show an increase in profit. And if they see they are not going to before quarterly earnings are reported, they cut the number of labor hours spent on testing code before it's released. They cut corners to show profitability because lets face it, the corporation really doesn't care about anything but showing their investors they are making money.
  • Gythral
    Gythral
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    ✭✭✭
    The obvious (elephant in the room)
    no issues on PTS
    PC-EU dies

    I'd look for the obvoius issue (PC-EU)

    :wink
    “Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
    Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
    Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
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