I don't recall they mentioning anything about racials, and it's safe to assume they wont change anything since they did the rework not long ago.

Bosmer and Argonian are fine, though. The only who is crap atm is Redguard: Less sustain than Woodelf in all situations and less damage. Snare reduction is multiplied so it is quite frankly useless. % stam reduction on skills is crappy on since their base costs are low.

Argonian fills their tanky magicka niche (you could argue breton does it better, but it really depends on the build), and bosmer is a sustain oriented race and they work just find like that, while having their niche with dodge builds.

Yes, this was confirmed in the Update 23 Combat Q&A, specifically about stamina racial balance. I don’t think it’s been mentioned since, still waiting to see what changes are planned. I’d guess that Orc might lose some power, while Bosmer and Khajiit gain some. Not sure if Argonian will be touched, since it’s not really a stamina race, but I agree it is underpowered currently.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

I don't recall they mentioning anything about racials, and it's safe to assume they wont change anything since they did the rework not long ago.

Bosmer and Argonian are fine, though. The only who is crap atm is Redguard: Less sustain than Woodelf in all situations and less damage. Snare reduction is multiplied so it is quite frankly useless. % stam reduction on skills is crappy on since their base costs are low.

Argonian fills their tanky magicka niche (you could argue breton does it better, but it really depends on the build), and bosmer is a sustain oriented race and they work just find like that, while having their niche with dodge builds.

Bosmer don't have any racials that would increase DPS over Redguard. Adrenaline Rush gives roughly 190 additional Stam recovery per second and the 8% stam reduction on weapon abilties passive is probably going to push Redguard passed Bosmer in combat when it comes to sustain. At the very least, they are pretty even.

RD065 wrote: »

Honestly I rather have no racial bonus. It gets boring after awhile using the same classes for a particular role.

Exactly and people are like ooooh but it brings diversity and that it's 'how it's always been' but these racial are incredibly restrictive. There would be even more choice if they got rid of racials altogether, everyone currently would still be able to play exactly the same way but more people would be able to play the way they want without racial restrictions

Kahnak wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

I don't recall they mentioning anything about racials, and it's safe to assume they wont change anything since they did the rework not long ago.

Bosmer and Argonian are fine, though. The only who is crap atm is Redguard: Less sustain than Woodelf in all situations and less damage. Snare reduction is multiplied so it is quite frankly useless. % stam reduction on skills is crappy on since their base costs are low.

Argonian fills their tanky magicka niche (you could argue breton does it better, but it really depends on the build), and bosmer is a sustain oriented race and they work just find like that, while having their niche with dodge builds.

Bosmer don't have any racials that would increase DPS over Redguard. Adrenaline Rush gives roughly 190 additional Stam recovery per second and the 8% stam reduction on weapon abilties passive is probably going to push Redguard passed Bosmer in combat when it comes to sustain. At the very least, they are pretty even.

and some classes use almost no weapon abilities so that passive is more or less useless. Also you need to be in combat to get the benefit so going from group to group of enemies bosmer will regen stamina at a much faster rate than redguard

xbobx15 wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

I don't recall they mentioning anything about racials, and it's safe to assume they wont change anything since they did the rework not long ago.

Bosmer and Argonian are fine, though. The only who is crap atm is Redguard: Less sustain than Woodelf in all situations and less damage. Snare reduction is multiplied so it is quite frankly useless. % stam reduction on skills is crappy on since their base costs are low.

Argonian fills their tanky magicka niche (you could argue breton does it better, but it really depends on the build), and bosmer is a sustain oriented race and they work just find like that, while having their niche with dodge builds.

Bosmer don't have any racials that would increase DPS over Redguard. Adrenaline Rush gives roughly 190 additional Stam recovery per second and the 8% stam reduction on weapon abilties passive is probably going to push Redguard passed Bosmer in combat when it comes to sustain. At the very least, they are pretty even.

and some classes use almost no weapon abilities so that passive is more or less useless. Also you need to be in combat to get the benefit so going from group to group of enemies bosmer will regen stamina at a much faster rate than redguard

And Redguards get stamina even when blocking and Bosmer don't... This is really not an argument that needs to happen.
Both races need some love and it's stupid to argue over who needs it the most.

Bosmer need Hunter's Eye to be fixed so that it benefits people in all regions of gameplay instead of just PvP, for example by making the penetration a permanent at an adjusted amount and give them back their stealth while keeing the dodgeroll-movementspeed as is.
Argonians need some values raised or passives tweaked to receive the same total value of bonuses as the other races at the very least. Also give them back their poison resistance. Having both poison and disease resistance would not be broken or overpowered!
Redguards also need some values raised and could use an offensive flavor passive that separates them more from Bosmer. I suggest if they already get reduced weapon ult costs, they should benefit more from using them than other races, for example give them some weapon damage after using a weapon ultimate or something. Or maybe increase the potency of certain weapon passives (although that might be too specific).

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

I don't recall they mentioning anything about racials, and it's safe to assume they wont change anything since they did the rework not long ago.

Bosmer and Argonian are fine, though. The only who is crap atm is Redguard: Less sustain than Woodelf in all situations and less damage. Snare reduction is multiplied so it is quite frankly useless. % stam reduction on skills is crappy on since their base costs are low.

Argonian fills their tanky magicka niche (you could argue breton does it better, but it really depends on the build), and bosmer is a sustain oriented race and they work just find like that, while having their niche with dodge builds.

Bosmer don't have any racials that would increase DPS over Redguard. Adrenaline Rush gives roughly 190 additional Stam recovery per second and the 8% stam reduction on weapon abilties passive is probably going to push Redguard passed Bosmer in combat when it comes to sustain. At the very least, they are pretty even.

and some classes use almost no weapon abilities so that passive is more or less useless. Also you need to be in combat to get the benefit so going from group to group of enemies bosmer will regen stamina at a much faster rate than redguard

And Redguards get stamina even when blocking and Bosmer don't... This is really not an argument that needs to happen.
Both races need some love and it's stupid to argue over who needs it the most.

Bosmer need Hunter's Eye to be fixed so that it benefits people in all regions of gameplay instead of just PvP, for example by making the penetration a permanent at an adjusted amount and give them back their stealth while keeing the dodgeroll-movementspeed as is.
Argonians need some values raised or passives tweaked to receive the same total value of bonuses as the other races at the very least. Also give them back their poison resistance. Having both poison and disease resistance would not be broken or overpowered!
Redguards also need some values raised and could use an offensive flavor passive that separates them more from Bosmer. I suggest if they already get reduced weapon ult costs, they should benefit more from using them than other races, for example give them some weapon damage after using a weapon ultimate or something. Or maybe increase the potency of certain weapon passives (although that might be too specific).

While the italics is true, there is still little to no reason to choose redguard over bosmer in this current patch.

You are right that both races need some updates, just if bosmer get stealth back (this should have never been removed in the 1st place), I would not be surprised if a nerf happened elsewhere.

For example bosmer gets a permanent 1500 pen and stealth bonus, but max stam gets reduced to 1000-1500 stam is what ZOS may do.

That's something ZOS would do and honestly it would be fair. In the Bosmer thread our suggestion was for the pen to be lowered to something like 1000 or 750 to make up for it being permanent. They just need something offensive.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

I don't recall they mentioning anything about racials, and it's safe to assume they wont change anything since they did the rework not long ago.

Bosmer and Argonian are fine, though. The only who is crap atm is Redguard: Less sustain than Woodelf in all situations and less damage. Snare reduction is multiplied so it is quite frankly useless. % stam reduction on skills is crappy on since their base costs are low.

Argonian fills their tanky magicka niche (you could argue breton does it better, but it really depends on the build), and bosmer is a sustain oriented race and they work just find like that, while having their niche with dodge builds.

Bosmer don't have any racials that would increase DPS over Redguard. Adrenaline Rush gives roughly 190 additional Stam recovery per second and the 8% stam reduction on weapon abilties passive is probably going to push Redguard passed Bosmer in combat when it comes to sustain. At the very least, they are pretty even.

and some classes use almost no weapon abilities so that passive is more or less useless. Also you need to be in combat to get the benefit so going from group to group of enemies bosmer will regen stamina at a much faster rate than redguard

And Redguards get stamina even when blocking and Bosmer don't... This is really not an argument that needs to happen.
Both races need some love and it's stupid to argue over who needs it the most.

Bosmer need Hunter's Eye to be fixed so that it benefits people in all regions of gameplay instead of just PvP, for example by making the penetration a permanent at an adjusted amount and give them back their stealth while keeing the dodgeroll-movementspeed as is.
Argonians need some values raised or passives tweaked to receive the same total value of bonuses as the other races at the very least. Also give them back their poison resistance. Having both poison and disease resistance would not be broken or overpowered!
Redguards also need some values raised and could use an offensive flavor passive that separates them more from Bosmer. I suggest if they already get reduced weapon ult costs, they should benefit more from using them than other races, for example give them some weapon damage after using a weapon ultimate or something. Or maybe increase the potency of certain weapon passives (although that might be too specific).

While the italics is true, there is still little to no reason to choose redguard over bosmer in this current patch.

You are right that both races need some updates, just if bosmer get stealth back (this should have never been removed in the 1st place), I would not be surprised if a nerf happened elsewhere.

For example bosmer gets a permanent 1500 pen and stealth bonus, but max stam gets reduced to 1000-1500 stam is what ZOS may do.

That's something ZOS would do and honestly it would be fair. In the Bosmer thread our suggestion was for the pen to be lowered to something like 1000 or 750 to make up for it being permanent. They just need something offensive.

Though I would love for redguards to either have their sustain passives to be buffed significantly or even better to have something similar to your suggestion, like increased weapon damage after using a weapon ability/significantly increased damage when using weapon abilities.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Sorry, I like my wood elf exactly how it is. The races rework did nothing but buff my wood elves.

@Rikumaru Okay, but would you say no to more buffs? Nobody has anything against the 258 stam recovery or the 2000 max stam or even the movement speed after dodgeroll. That stuff is good and should stay as it is and the resistance is fine too. It's just that the penetration after dodgeroll is not useable in PvE and detection isn't even usable in PvP (3m is nothing and it's also pretty buggy).
Permanent penetration works for both PvP and PvE and stealth is useful in PvP and avoiding combat in PvE.

The additional pen is actually extremely good at least for some my builds, it's effectively like having 180 weapon damage or something for a flavour passive (ontop of having free 10% movement speed). If the pen was applied permanently, I feel like it would be too OP.

Admittedly my PoV is in PvP and I've heard the passive isn't great in PvE. Still though, from my perspective ZOS has changed wood elf to become a unique class but yet competitive for some builds, which I'm pretty happy about as wood elf is also my favourite race (alongside high elf).

I don't really understand why alot of people are mad at the changes directed at wood elves since they have actually been buffed in PvP and from what I remember PvE as wood elf was legitimately one of the worst races in the game before the race rework for both sides of the game.

Rikumaru wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Sorry, I like my wood elf exactly how it is. The races rework did nothing but buff my wood elves.

@Rikumaru Okay, but would you say no to more buffs? Nobody has anything against the 258 stam recovery or the 2000 max stam or even the movement speed after dodgeroll. That stuff is good and should stay as it is and the resistance is fine too. It's just that the penetration after dodgeroll is not useable in PvE and detection isn't even usable in PvP (3m is nothing and it's also pretty buggy).
Permanent penetration works for both PvP and PvE and stealth is useful in PvP and avoiding combat in PvE.

The additional pen is actually extremely good at least for some my builds, it's effectively like having 180 weapon damage or something for a flavour passive (ontop of having free 10% movement speed). If the pen was applied permanently, I feel like it would be too OP.

Admittedly my PoV is in PvP and I've heard the passive isn't great in PvE. Still though, from my perspective ZOS has changed wood elf to become a unique class but yet competitive for some builds, which I'm pretty happy about as wood elf is also my favourite race (alongside high elf).

I don't really understand why alot of people are mad at the changes directed at wood elves since they have actually been buffed in PvP and from what I remember PvE as wood elf was legitimately one of the worst races in the game before the race rework for both sides of the game.

Because Bosmer and Khajiit had been the only stealthy races in the game for 5 years and in all the games before Woodelfs were described as stealthy thieves. Then ZOS reduced the number of stealth races from 2 to 1 for no good reason. They said it was to make races more "unique" but that logic is more than flawed. After all if two races can't share a passive, how come so many other races share passives? Especially considering Khajiit and Bosmer are very distinct in every other aspect.

Adding to that, Bosmer have been at the bottom of dps tests together with Redguards the entire time. The reason being that it's much easier for races with low sustain like Orc and Dunmer to get sustain than it is for Bosmer and Redguards to get more damage, especially in trials where sustain is higher due to the abundance of sets and synergies and Orcs and Dunmer having the same access to damage sets and skills as Bosmer and Redguard.

The reason why Hunter's Eye is so pointless in particular in PvE is because detection only works against enemies that are hidden and there are none in PvE and even those that do go invisible don't get detected by it. And the penetration is not useful as trying to make use of it leads to one of the following scenarios:

1. You build like you would on any other race and get 1500 penetration more than necessary -> Overpenetration = damage loss
2. You intentionally avoid overpenetration by lowering your penetration by 1500, but you are now forced to keep dodgerolling to keep your penetration buff up, which results in a loss of sustain, aka your only strength over the other races which results in damage loss
3. You intentionally avoid overpenetration as before, but you don't do extra dodgerolls than the ones the mechanics force you to do already to conserve your stamina -> lower penetration and low buff uptime = damage loss

If the buff was permanent instead, you could simply adjust your CP to account for the value you are getting just as you would with a set bonus and invest the CP somewhere else which would raise your damage potential and get Bosmer more in line with Orc and Dunmer. The movementspeed after dodgeroll is completely fine and can stay as it is.
Oh and for PvP, while Overpenetration isn't exactly a thing there due to high armor values and armor buffs, the detection is still very flawed. The way it works in the game - if you and an enemy are both sneaking it alerts the enemies of your presence before you are even aware they are around. This is because your eye indicator goes to "danger" right before you get detected. If your detection radius is larger, your enemy will see "danger" before you do and yet you are the one who is supposed to be better at detecting...
Then there is the fact that there are no chokepoints in the game that are large enough for someone to hide from regular detection but the extra 3m to cover that ground. It's either a closed space and you would have found them with regular detection levels or a wide area and you would have never found because they have enough room to avoid you. Lastly detection potions grant 20m of detection and while they are not passive, they do a much better job at detecting, so if finding hidden players is your goal, you could already do that. But the item sets that grant detection are generally regarded as decon-trash, so why should a race have a decon-trash racial bonus?

idk wrote: »

Zos said they will not look at racial again until after they complete this combat overhaul.

Even then I would expect we would only see minor adjustments.

@idk You are not up to date then. The statement of them not looking at racials again was followed later by a "they would look at stamina races again and see if adjustments were needed". They did not say anything further though and that is like half a year ago now with no news on it... So perhaps they decided adjustments weren't needed, but they didn't say that either. So, who knows. Perhaps after they are done with their current ability standards..?
Eitherway, as long as there are issues that need fixing we should always speak our minds even if and especially if ZOS said they won't look at it again.