Just looked at a random character of mine, my Stamspammables cost 2k-2.9k Stam.

On my Main my cheapest Stam attack would be executioner with 1.7k cost. The rest is again between 2k and 2.9k.

Also it is way easier for magicka Chars to hit a way higher maxstat than Stamina, 30k Stamina is already good, 30k Magicka is awful, its easy to push at least 40k Magicka without major investions.

Magicka spammables hit harder than stamina ones. The only exception is jabs. The reason why magicka is not as good solo open world isn't to do with damage, it's because magicka has inferior mobility and ZOS overnerfed shields.

Royaji wrote: »

How about we have a discussion based on facts and not some random numbers?

All of the weapon spammables (Uppercut, Power Bash, Flurry and Force Shock) have the same base cost at 2700 stamina/magicka. Snipe is more expensive at 3240 stamina.

Class spammables:
DK - Both Whip and Stonefist are 2295.
NB - Both Concealed Weapon and Surprise Attack are 2295. Strife is more expensive at 2700.
Templar - Jabs are 2295 and Sweeps are 2700.
Warden - Dive is 2295 and Cliff Racer is 2700.
Necormancer - Venom Skull is 2295 and Ricochet is 2700.

Imbue Weapon is a bit of an oddball. Crushing Weapon is 2715 and Elemental is 3122. After Clairvoyance passive, which reduces the cost by 15% they will land at the same ~2300 for stamina version and ~2700 for magicka.

Amusingly, only one stamina spammable exceeds 3k in cost. And even in the worst case the difference between stamina and magicka cost is only 400.

If you go beyond spammables and take a look at some other comparable skills you will see the same picture.

Volley (3510) vs. Wall of Elements (3780).
Killer's Blade (2066) vs. Impale (2430).
Hurricane (2295) vs. Boundless Storm (2700).
Sub Assult (2066) vs. Deep Fissure (2430).
This list can go on.

The difference you are talking about does not exist in the game.

You are also completely missing the initial reason why magicka abilities were for the longest time balanced to be more expensive than stamina. There is no Minor Staminasteal. Only magicka version of this effect exists. Which is why ZOS has always balanced magicka abilities to be more expensive than stamina.

That, and stamina abilities are cheaper because the same pool is used for both blocking and roll dodging, whereas magicka is only used for abilities.

It's not causing a problem if there are Magicka setups that are outperforming Stamina setups. The game is more balanced now than it has ever been in terms of damage potential or build parity. As a Magicka player who remembers a time when Magicka couldn't have two 5 piece sets and wear a Monster set at the same time or being setup for Magicka and lagging 6k or 7k behind the weakest Stamina setup, I'm more than happy with the progress that has been made.

TheFM wrote: »

Stam is able to get to nearly 8 k weapon damage with no resource issues, magicka can only dream of such a situation

Out of curiosity can we get a screenshot of this + the build? I'm just curious about this claim of no resource issues at 8k weapon damage because that sounds like it'd require pouring an awful lot of resources and points into only WD and being a specific class.

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Here's some base cost comparisons between 2h and destro staff using the Fextralife ESO wiki here for the discussion's sake, with reduced cost or different effect morphs being noted in parenthesis. That way, at least, we have a baseline. I'll also put what I take away from looking at the costs side by side.

Base costs, 2h:

• Spammable, Uppercut - 2700 stam
• Gap Closer, Charge - 3780 stam
• AoE, Cleave - 3240 stam
• Execute, Reverse Slash - 2160 stam
• Buff, Momentum - 3780 (2910) stam

Base costs, Destro staff:

• Spammable, Force Shock - 2700 mag
• Placed AoE, Wall of Elements - 4950 mag
• DoT (CC, Spammable?), Destructive Touch - 2700 (2430) mag
• Debuff, Weakness to Elements - Free
• AoE, Impulse- 3510 mag

What I make of this: Reverse Slash is FAR too cheap. NB execute costs very slightly less (2066) and Sorc execute costs slightly more (2357) and both aren't nearly as effective because of execute range (20-25% flat vs 50% scaling). Rest seem acceptably equal based on their effectiveness. Note especially Uppercut vs. Force Shock and Destructive Touch.

Class costs get more dicey.

Class base costs, DK Ardent Flame:

• Searing Strike Morphs - 2851 mag, 2525 stam,
• Breath Morphs - 3369 mag, 2984 stam.

Class base costs, Templar, Aedric Spear:

• Jab Morphs - 2700 mag, 2295 stam,
• Javelin Morphs - 3780 mag, 3213 stam.

What I make of this: This is an odd trend that seems to continue into Nightblade, Warden, Necro and Sorc (which I haven't included here). Skills that have a stamina morph are consistently ~600-1000 stam cheaper than their magicka counterparts. There are a few possible explanations I can think of. Stamina is used to break free, roll dodge, and block, which may be working its way back into the base cost philosophy. Light armor comes with a cost reduction, too, but I'm not sure why that would make magicka skills more costly baseline. Regardless, I don't really see a good explanation for the slightly higher cost on class skills. Maybe someone else sees something I don't?

L_Nici wrote: »

Just looked at a random character of mine, my Stamspammables cost 2k-2.9k Stam.

On my Main my cheapest Stam attack would be executioner with 1.7k cost. The rest is again between 2k and 2.9k.

Also it is way easier for magicka Chars to hit a way higher maxstat than Stamina, 30k Stamina is already good, 30k Magicka is awful, its easy to push at least 40k Magicka without major investions.

Bad example. We don't know what armor you're wearing (med reduces cost, heavy does not), what skill points you have, what weapons you're running, what race you are, etc.

a lot of these costs are wrong. never use fetlife for your numbers, like ever. use https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills and https://en.uesp.net for all other of your needs. fetlife is a terrible site and hardly get updates, https://en.uesp.net/ is still a fan site but gets updates almost day off for the major stuff and https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills is updated almost when the patch is uploaded, simply because there is this- https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:UespLog_AddOn that does the work automatically.

I just did a Google search and only after I finished typing all the values did I realize the site I was on. I agree, uesp is better. But it looks like the trend stays mostly the same, save for a few values.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Here's some base cost comparisons between 2h and destro staff using the Fextralife ESO wiki here for the discussion's sake, with reduced cost or different effect morphs being noted in parenthesis. That way, at least, we have a baseline. I'll also put what I take away from looking at the costs side by side.

Base costs, 2h:

• Spammable, Uppercut - 2700 stam
• Gap Closer, Charge - 3780 stam
• AoE, Cleave - 3240 stam
• Execute, Reverse Slash - 2160 stam
• Buff, Momentum - 3780 (2910) stam

Base costs, Destro staff:

• Spammable, Force Shock - 2700 mag
• Placed AoE, Wall of Elements - 4950 mag
• DoT (CC, Spammable?), Destructive Touch - 2700 (2430) mag
• Debuff, Weakness to Elements - Free
• AoE, Impulse- 3510 mag

What I make of this: Reverse Slash is FAR too cheap. NB execute costs very slightly less (2066) and Sorc execute costs slightly more (2357) and both aren't nearly as effective because of execute range (20-25% flat vs 50% scaling). Rest seem acceptably equal based on their effectiveness. Note especially Uppercut vs. Force Shock and Destructive Touch.

Class costs get more dicey.

Class base costs, DK Ardent Flame:

• Searing Strike Morphs - 2851 mag, 2525 stam,
• Breath Morphs - 3369 mag, 2984 stam.

Class base costs, Templar, Aedric Spear:

• Jab Morphs - 2700 mag, 2295 stam,
• Javelin Morphs - 3780 mag, 3213 stam.

What I make of this: This is an odd trend that seems to continue into Nightblade, Warden, Necro and Sorc (which I haven't included here). Skills that have a stamina morph are consistently ~600-1000 stam cheaper than their magicka counterparts. There are a few possible explanations I can think of. Stamina is used to break free, roll dodge, and block, which may be working its way back into the base cost philosophy. Light armor comes with a cost reduction, too, but I'm not sure why that would make magicka skills more costly baseline. Regardless, I don't really see a good explanation for the slightly higher cost on class skills. Maybe someone else sees something I don't?

L_Nici wrote: »

Just looked at a random character of mine, my Stamspammables cost 2k-2.9k Stam.

On my Main my cheapest Stam attack would be executioner with 1.7k cost. The rest is again between 2k and 2.9k.

Also it is way easier for magicka Chars to hit a way higher maxstat than Stamina, 30k Stamina is already good, 30k Magicka is awful, its easy to push at least 40k Magicka without major investions.

Bad example. We don't know what armor you're wearing (med reduces cost, heavy does not), what skill points you have, what weapons you're running, what race you are, etc.

There's a bunch of missing information here, and whole lot of missing context, leading to bad analysis.

First: Minor Magickasteal. It's impossible to do a "baseline comparison" of ability costs without factoring in the fact that magicka builds are getting +300 magicka per second.

Second: resource pool size. Just looking at ability costs is meaningless without context.

Take two end-game PvE builds, a magplar and a stamplar.

Fully buffed, the magplar will have about 40.5k max magicka. In a dummy parse, you'll see about 1700-1750 magica *drain* per second versus about 1650-1700 magicka *regen* per second.

Fully buffed, the stamplar will have about 36k max stamina. In a dummy parse, you'll see about 1250-1300 stamina *drain* per second versus about 1300-1350 stamina *regen* per second.

If you just look at the cost of the abilities, the raw cost is irrelevant. Jabs being cheaper than Sweeps by *raw value* means nothing when the magicka build has a 15% larger resource pool and significantly higher regen.

Also, I just have to point out that the idea that Executioner is somehow superior to class executes like Killer's Blade/Impale is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that it scales up with missing health is a negative, not a positive. It doesn't start doing as much damage as Killer's Blade until the tail end of execute.

Actually, I think the biggest missing piece I could have added in retrospect was some kind of damage coefficient.

I concede to the point about magickasteal. I think it's a good topic to bring up. What I don't think is realistic, however, is assuming the debuff will be up 100% of the time on every target, or for that matter, at all. Firstly, not a lot of skills provide access to it, Ele Drain being the only one available to everyone that I can think of. Especially in PvP situations, Ele Drain can feel like a boring and ineffective skill to take, and in PvE situations, there's target switching and human error. Also this brings up an interesting ESO design question: Should we make skills more expensive just because there's an effect out there that helps with sustain? It seems counterintuitive to the reason magickasteal exists if you just make mag skills more expensive in return for it existing.

I also think that you might have a good point with the max resources, but you're not providing enough details to really give your point any staying power. 40.5k max mag on what race? Using what sets? Having what buffs? Also, what is being assumed to be the rotation for the dummy parse? Also, are you including magickasteal for your mag build?

Also -- at least in PvP situations -- Executioner is always better, because it has a wider window of use and scales to a higher execute percentage. I should have clarified that I'm looking at it from that angle.