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What is there to even counter this?
Fawn4287
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A 12 man ball group of templar and warden tanks spamming aoe heals all with 2-3 defensive sets and all with 40K+ health, rolling from keep to keep. The templars all panic ult with practiced incantation and wardens with the trees. They walk out and burn siege and take 10 people beating on them to kill one. There is actually no real consistent counter to this what so ever. Its builds and play styles like these along with dedicated healers that are killing traditional playstyles and essentially forcing everyone in to ridiculously high numbered group play. Many players realise they simply not good at PvP and playing a dps build but realise that a healer/tank Utility build is much easier and ridiculously more effective than being another bad dps player.
I was not a fan of bleeds severely over performing, however I think they need a buff and to act like oblivion damage, for example a character with 23k health should continue to take 800~1k per tick, but a 60k health tank should be taking like 4k dps a second from them. This is just a suggestion but this is in desperate need of a fix ASAP. even just capping health at 30k would make a huge dent in the invincibility of these builds. Even things like siege and proc sets should scale off max stats, essentially forcing these builds out of PvP.
For those that say “let me play how I want a 50k heath tank thats how I want to play” it is simply ruining the game for everyone else, ZOS decided to make campaign wins based on resources, this happens to be the most effective way to capture and hold resources to win a campaign.
I was not a fan of bleeds severely over performing, however I think they need a buff and to act like oblivion damage, for example a character with 23k health should continue to take 800~1k per tick, but a 60k health tank should be taking like 4k dps a second from them. This is just a suggestion but this is in desperate need of a fix ASAP. even just capping health at 30k would make a huge dent in the invincibility of these builds. Even things like siege and proc sets should scale off max stats, essentially forcing these builds out of PvP.
For those that say “let me play how I want a 50k heath tank thats how I want to play” it is simply ruining the game for everyone else, ZOS decided to make campaign wins based on resources, this happens to be the most effective way to capture and hold resources to win a campaign.
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olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the tankmeta at its finest, nobody claims to like it, yet so so so many play it. This is what ZOS has enabled and they dont rly do anything to remedy it.
PC EU
PvP only4 -
Karmen✭✭✭✭hard times.
Only Zos has the power to change that.I am Carmen.
For Bosmers, war is only a sport2 -
I was not a fan of bleeds severely over performing, however I think they need a buff and to act like oblivion damage, for example a character with 23k health should continue to take 800~1k per tick, but a 60k health tank should be taking like 4k dps a second from them. This is just a suggestion but this is in desperate need of a fix ASAP. even just capping health at 30k would make a huge dent in the invincibility of these builds. Even things like siege and proc sets should scale off max stats, essentially forcing these builds out of PvP.
This is a very interesting offer. The combat system is improved when it becomes more multifaceted.
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Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is the tankmeta at its finest, nobody claims to like it, yet so so so many play it. This is what ZOS has enabled and they dont rly do anything to remedy it.
They realise people really hate dying, even now its like most people build tanky enough to not die 1v1 and get “exposed” then work backwards to hit just enough damage to kill someone. Block mitigation, block casting and mistform need a significant nerf in PvP, the risk to reward ratio with a sword and board is not like anything else, when you can swap bars and instantly mitigate 75%+of incoming damage for the press of 1 button.
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A good start would be to add soft caps or diminishing returns to HP. It´s been suggested before by other people but I´ll post it here again:
Add diminishing returns on all HP above 25K. For every 5k HP above 25k HP you´ve, it´s effectiveness is reduced by 50%.
If you can lower the avarage max HP on players in Cyrodil you´ll make more people susceptile to burst damage. A group where everyone has 30k HP on avarage compared to 35-40k will be "easier" to burst down. Healing and cross healing can remain strong if you´re still susceptile to burst damage. But with how easy it is to stack large amount of HP without any real downside, people will continue to do so.
Edited by Qbiken on March 2, 2020 12:29PM3 -
Karmen✭✭✭✭I'd like so much to have some explanations from ZOS combat director about what he thinks of that "tank meta" in pvp.Edited by Karmen on March 2, 2020 12:35PMI am Carmen.
For Bosmers, war is only a sport0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »I was not a fan of bleeds severely over performing, however I think they need a buff and to act like oblivion damage, for example a character with 23k health should continue to take 800~1k per tick, but a 60k health tank should be taking like 4k dps a second from them. This is just a suggestion but this is in desperate need of a fix ASAP. even just capping health at 30k would make a huge dent in the invincibility of these builds. Even things like siege and proc sets should scale off max stats, essentially forcing these builds out of PvP.
This is a very interesting offer. The combat system is improved when it becomes more multifaceted.
I often used to see an axe bleed crit for 3.4K and a rending bleed crit for 3.6 on a build with 22k health and think wow this is broken, now I see the axe bleed crit for 310 on a build with 60k health and think the same.
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Noctus✭✭✭✭✭tanks just shouldnt be able to heal that much. either way nerf heavy armor healing to the ground or give every class healing debuff skills that go up to 80 % debuff. idk about others but i can run any vet dungeon without a healer which isnt normal for a balanced game at all.0
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OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »I was not a fan of bleeds severely over performing, however I think they need a buff and to act like oblivion damage, for example a character with 23k health should continue to take 800~1k per tick, but a 60k health tank should be taking like 4k dps a second from them. This is just a suggestion but this is in desperate need of a fix ASAP. even just capping health at 30k would make a huge dent in the invincibility of these builds. Even things like siege and proc sets should scale off max stats, essentially forcing these builds out of PvP.
This is a very interesting offer. The combat system is improved when it becomes more multifaceted.
I often used to see an axe bleed crit for 3.4K and a rending bleed crit for 3.6 on a build with 22k health and think wow this is broken, now I see the axe bleed crit for 310 on a build with 60k health and think the same.
Yea, potential hammer is much higher now. This is a really cool offer. I think that just changing scaling HP will not help, because it works together with resists which they can also stack about 40k. You correctly say for bleed can use, one of the types of progression.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The counter was immobolize and negate, but "solos" got that nerfed in what was the biggest example of how attempting to buff "solo" players buffs ballgroups more.
Now the only counters would be either stronger siege damage, hp% siege damage, oblivion siege, negate siege, etc. - or ZOS could actually nerf the sets that enable such a playstyle but they won't because they moved too much power away from classes into these proc sets.
ZOS could also take a look at damage reduction and capping it, but they won't because the forums has a very large noise filter that keeps claiming its healing even though you can heal for a billion hp per second and still die as long as you do not have the damage reduction to go along with it
The solution is not to buff tools only one class or spec has access to, general solutions need to be added to the game. But it doesn't matter because no matter how hard you try to nerf tanky players, the block and roll buttons both provide the most damage reduction and avoidance in the game period.0 -
I agree with roll dodge and block, but it works well within certain health limits and resistance. I think the message of TS was that players with great health and resistances should also be able to die, not just be ignored. Players with maximum health will become more interesting to play from this, because you will need to choose skills for better efficiency.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on March 2, 2020 1:43PM0
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Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭The counter was immobolize and negate, but "solos" got that nerfed in what was the biggest example of how attempting to buff "solo" players buffs ballgroups more.
Now the only counters would be either stronger siege damage, hp% siege damage, oblivion siege, negate siege, etc. - or ZOS could actually nerf the sets that enable such a playstyle but they won't because they moved too much power away from classes into these proc sets.
ZOS could also take a look at damage reduction and capping it, but they won't because the forums has a very large noise filter that keeps claiming its healing even though you can heal for a billion hp per second and still die as long as you do not have the damage reduction to go along with it
The solution is not to buff tools only one class or spec has access to, general solutions need to be added to the game. But it doesn't matter because no matter how hard you try to nerf tanky players, the block and roll buttons both provide the most damage reduction and avoidance in the game period.
No one complains about Self healing its blockcastIng burst heals and off healing that are the problem, no class has too much self healing
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ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭nothing. zero effort ross healing/cross purges from abilities like ritual, regeneration, and purge are dumb.Gryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer1 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭SavageChain wrote: »Just move away from them or annoy them....
Back to my factions spawns where they push us?0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭SavageChain wrote: »Just move away from them or annoy them....
Back to my factions spawns where they push us?
Cyrodiil is quite big...its easy to avoid ballgroups and zergs if you want to do it. If its your factions base, then move around them to an enemy keep.2 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HP in PVE should have diminishing returns after 30k, the accepted threshold for most endgame tank builds. in PVP sure, why not 25k.
Things like Goliath Ultimate would of course ignore this as if they didn't it would be worthless skills.
Nerfing healing would only destroy endgame content like vet DLC trials. you do NEED that much healing in a lot of new vet content.
PVP already demonstrates they can adjust healing values independently in pve and pvp. I heal a LOT less at once in pvp than I do in PVE.Edited by dazee on March 3, 2020 10:10AMPlaying your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.1 -
Cirantille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I saw a 58k health person in CP the other day
For a refugee from no-cp like me it was:
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Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cirantille wrote: »I saw a 58k health person in CP the other day
For a refugee from no-cp like me it was:
I think that's how they survive the insane lag from the overpopulated campaigns. That's my theory anyway.2 -
jadarock✭✭✭✭✭Cirantille wrote: »I saw a 58k health person in CP the other day
For a refugee from no-cp like me it was:
I had a small.group of EP 40-64hp chasing me around brk xbox na a few days ago
I lol'd so hard when I started seeing all the high health builds hop off their horses looking for me2 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why not bait the healing ultis and burst them down with proxy ultis and synergies.
If they are just tanks there's nothing to fear from their side so you are in complete control of the fight.@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)2 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭A 12 man ball group of templar and warden tanks spamming aoe heals all with 2-3 defensive sets and all with 40K+ health, rolling from keep to keep. The templars all panic ult with practiced incantation and wardens with the trees. They walk out and burn siege and take 10 people beating on them to kill one. There is actually no real consistent counter to this what so ever. Its builds and play styles like these along with dedicated healers that are killing traditional playstyles and essentially forcing everyone in to ridiculously high numbered group play. Many players realise they simply not good at PvP and playing a dps build but realise that a healer/tank Utility build is much easier and ridiculously more effective than being another bad dps player.
I was not a fan of bleeds severely over performing, however I think they need a buff and to act like oblivion damage, for example a character with 23k health should continue to take 800~1k per tick, but a 60k health tank should be taking like 4k dps a second from them. This is just a suggestion but this is in desperate need of a fix ASAP. even just capping health at 30k would make a huge dent in the invincibility of these builds. Even things like siege and proc sets should scale off max stats, essentially forcing these builds out of PvP.
For those that say “let me play how I want a 50k heath tank thats how I want to play” it is simply ruining the game for everyone else, ZOS decided to make campaign wins based on resources, this happens to be the most effective way to capture and hold resources to win a campaign.
I think what you need is a counter group of 6 sorcs for negate spamms, and 6 stamcros for major defile and vunerbility. This combination should solve your tank meta to its core.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You have counters to everything the original post mentioned as a problem.
Who said it was supposed to play the way YOU want it to play?2
