StaticWave wrote: »

Scrolling through a bunch of animation cancelling(AC) posts and I see a similarity in arguments made anti-AC people:

1) AC makes the server lag
2) AC is a glitch/exploit or unintended
3) AC doesn't make sense because skills should play out the full duration
4) AC should cancel the skill all together, not deal damage and only cancel the animation

I'm pretty sure there are a few more but I can't recall off the top of my head. Anyways, while I do understand their reasoning to support the removal of AC, I think some of the arguments are rather misinformed. I'll give some 2 cents, but for the sake of argument let's take it with a grain of salt.

1) This argument is very common and I think it is extremely misinformed. Their reasoning is that the server has to do extra calculations when people AC, which makes the game lag. However, they completely ignore the fact that there is a 1 second global cool down(GCD) for skills, and another GCD for light/heavy attacks in the game. When you attempt AC, you are still limited by the 1s GCD. There is nothing you can do to bypass it. Therefore, what you're actually doing with AC is canceling the animation on client side. It has no bearing on the server whatsoever because of the GCD. What truly makes the game lag, is the amount of people in one place, the amount of people in a campaign, or just crappy server performance. Think cyrodiil for example. Why is it that when there are 2 bars across all faction, the game runs smoothly with very good ping, but the moment a large ball group of 20 players show up at your place, despite population counter showing only 2 bars, your ping shoots up by 30-40ms? Why is it that you can be standing at your base in a pop locked campaign, with zero players around, but your ping is constantly in the high 200ms?

2) Wrobel and pretty much everyone in the development team have confirmed that while AC is an unintended mechanic, it is NOT an exploit/glitch. In fact, Wrobel even encouraged players to practice AC during a live stream. Below is the link to that stream

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=ThZtwhYkKSs&feature=emb_logo

Not only that, but ZOS released a patch that increased light attack/heavy attack damage to encourage weaving them with normal skills. It is only cheating when ZOS says it is, but AC is clearly supported by them, so I think there is nothing to argue here.

3) This argument is very weak and is extremely selfish. Skills do play out their full duration, so if anti-AC people want to enjoy looking at skill animation, there is literally nothing stopping them from letting the animations play out. What doesn't make sense is trying to force that ideology on players who do want to AC.

4) There are two types of skills in this game, instant cast and channel. With instant abilities, the effect is applied immediately as you press a skill. This means that AC on instant abilities is entirely client side, and has no bearing on the server. Can we make the claim that it is useless to attempt AC on those abilities? No, we cannot, because what AC can do with instant abilities, is to allow you to perform defensive maneuvers with basically zero tradeoffs. That is why the block change is getting blasted so much because the previous version had basically zero weak spots. According to ZOS, "Activating block while animating an ability or attack will now blend the animation more fluidly instead of completely obfuscating the attack. The core mechanics to block cancelling remain untouched, but now display more of the previous attack’s animation before your character animates the block.". While this does not change the core mechanics of block cancelling, it does add a very small cast time to block because the animation of the previous skill is displayed more. This means that when you block cancel a skill, there is a very small window where you're left vulnerable. It also feels clunky too.

On the other hand, channeled abilities only apply the effect AFTER it has completed it's full animation duration. That is why skills like Wrecking Blow, Dark Conversion, Dark Flare, etc. and ultimates with a cast time, will only deal actual damage if you go through its full animation duration. If you attempt to animation cancel channeled abilities, you will cancel it all together and deal no damage. When anti-AC people want it removed because they think AC should cancel the skill and damage all together, they are unintentionally going down a dangerous road here. You see, the only practical way for ZOS to do such a thing, is to give all abilities a cast time like they did to some ultimates. Given how much people hate that change, let me ask you, anti-AC people, do you honestly think it would be a good decision?

One last note I would like to make for anti-Animation Canceling people. I assume the AC you're referring to is light attack weaving, no? Since there are 2 separate GCD for skills and light attacks, I think the only possible way for ZOS to remove that feature completely is to give both skills and light attacks the same GCD, which forces you to pick between the two. However that would probably cause a lot of issues in PvE.

Hopefully this post will shed some light on this ongoing topic.

Noxavian wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Scrolling through a bunch of animation cancelling(AC) posts and I see a similarity in arguments made anti-AC people:

1) AC makes the server lag
2) AC is a glitch/exploit or unintended
3) AC doesn't make sense because skills should play out the full duration
4) AC should cancel the skill all together, not deal damage and only cancel the animation

I'm pretty sure there are a few more but I can't recall off the top of my head. Anyways, while I do understand their reasoning to support the removal of AC, I think some of the arguments are rather misinformed. I'll give some 2 cents, but for the sake of argument let's take it with a grain of salt.

1) This argument is very common and I think it is extremely misinformed. Their reasoning is that the server has to do extra calculations when people AC, which makes the game lag. However, they completely ignore the fact that there is a 1 second global cool down(GCD) for skills, and another GCD for light/heavy attacks in the game. When you attempt AC, you are still limited by the 1s GCD. There is nothing you can do to bypass it. Therefore, what you're actually doing with AC is canceling the animation on client side. It has no bearing on the server whatsoever because of the GCD. What truly makes the game lag, is the amount of people in one place, the amount of people in a campaign, or just crappy server performance. Think cyrodiil for example. Why is it that when there are 2 bars across all faction, the game runs smoothly with very good ping, but the moment a large ball group of 20 players show up at your place, despite population counter showing only 2 bars, your ping shoots up by 30-40ms? Why is it that you can be standing at your base in a pop locked campaign, with zero players around, but your ping is constantly in the high 200ms?

2) Wrobel and pretty much everyone in the development team have confirmed that while AC is an unintended mechanic, it is NOT an exploit/glitch. In fact, Wrobel even encouraged players to practice AC during a live stream. Below is the link to that stream

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=ThZtwhYkKSs&feature=emb_logo

Not only that, but ZOS released a patch that increased light attack/heavy attack damage to encourage weaving them with normal skills. It is only cheating when ZOS says it is, but AC is clearly supported by them, so I think there is nothing to argue here.

3) This argument is very weak and is extremely selfish. Skills do play out their full duration, so if anti-AC people want to enjoy looking at skill animation, there is literally nothing stopping them from letting the animations play out. What doesn't make sense is trying to force that ideology on players who do want to AC.

4) There are two types of skills in this game, instant cast and channel. With instant abilities, the effect is applied immediately as you press a skill. This means that AC on instant abilities is entirely client side, and has no bearing on the server. Can we make the claim that it is useless to attempt AC on those abilities? No, we cannot, because what AC can do with instant abilities, is to allow you to perform defensive maneuvers with basically zero tradeoffs. That is why the block change is getting blasted so much because the previous version had basically zero weak spots. According to ZOS, "Activating block while animating an ability or attack will now blend the animation more fluidly instead of completely obfuscating the attack. The core mechanics to block cancelling remain untouched, but now display more of the previous attack’s animation before your character animates the block.". While this does not change the core mechanics of block cancelling, it does add a very small cast time to block because the animation of the previous skill is displayed more. This means that when you block cancel a skill, there is a very small window where you're left vulnerable. It also feels clunky too.

On the other hand, channeled abilities only apply the effect AFTER it has completed it's full animation duration. That is why skills like Wrecking Blow, Dark Conversion, Dark Flare, etc. and ultimates with a cast time, will only deal actual damage if you go through its full animation duration. If you attempt to animation cancel channeled abilities, you will cancel it all together and deal no damage. When anti-AC people want it removed because they think AC should cancel the skill and damage all together, they are unintentionally going down a dangerous road here. You see, the only practical way for ZOS to do such a thing, is to give all abilities a cast time like they did to some ultimates. Given how much people hate that change, let me ask you, anti-AC people, do you honestly think it would be a good decision?

One last note I would like to make for anti-Animation Canceling people. I assume the AC you're referring to is light attack weaving, no? Since there are 2 separate GCD for skills and light attacks, I think the only possible way for ZOS to remove that feature completely is to give both skills and light attacks the same GCD, which forces you to pick between the two. However that would probably cause a lot of issues in PvE.

Hopefully this post will shed some light on this ongoing topic.

Animation cancelling is dumb and if we weren't meant to witness the animation of things then they wouldn't be there.

Sorry, there really is no other way to see it. The literal definition of animation cancelling is glitching the game.

Vorien wrote: »

This, I believe, is the true issue with the current setup for animation cancelling. It's not that it's a bad mechanic overall, but the current implementation significantly dilutes the amount of viable playstyles in the game. The fact that you're expected to use the same sequence of abilities in the same time frame at the same rate, regardless of if you're playing a speedy dagger-wielding assassin or a bulky warrior with a warhammer, is what makes the game feel so stale and dull. And yeah, a big part of this is the choice ZoS made to not only keep anim cancelling (A good idea in my opinion), but to make LA weaving an essential part of combat (Terrible idea in my opinion). Heck, even if you're not playing a DPS, you're still better off using the same weaving mechanics as a tank or a healer. And then we wonder why everything feels the same.

The fact that people want to have quick-paced combat is fine. Make skills and sets that support that playstyle while still allowing for some level of variety and player preference.

So would you be in-favour of lets say revising the weapon trees so Dual Wield was a super quick short animation skill line akin to the speed of the "light attack weaving" in it's current state but had reduced damage to put in on par with a 2 hander tree that had longer animations that hit harder (A rework of class skills would probably be needed so some skills had short animations to weave into the dual wield playstyle)

I know i'm a complete noob i'm just curious if that would satisfy the needs of the pro AC people.

Noxavian wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Scrolling through a bunch of animation cancelling(AC) posts and I see a similarity in arguments made anti-AC people:

1) AC makes the server lag
2) AC is a glitch/exploit or unintended
3) AC doesn't make sense because skills should play out the full duration
4) AC should cancel the skill all together, not deal damage and only cancel the animation

I'm pretty sure there are a few more but I can't recall off the top of my head. Anyways, while I do understand their reasoning to support the removal of AC, I think some of the arguments are rather misinformed. I'll give some 2 cents, but for the sake of argument let's take it with a grain of salt.

1) This argument is very common and I think it is extremely misinformed. Their reasoning is that the server has to do extra calculations when people AC, which makes the game lag. However, they completely ignore the fact that there is a 1 second global cool down(GCD) for skills, and another GCD for light/heavy attacks in the game. When you attempt AC, you are still limited by the 1s GCD. There is nothing you can do to bypass it. Therefore, what you're actually doing with AC is canceling the animation on client side. It has no bearing on the server whatsoever because of the GCD. What truly makes the game lag, is the amount of people in one place, the amount of people in a campaign, or just crappy server performance. Think cyrodiil for example. Why is it that when there are 2 bars across all faction, the game runs smoothly with very good ping, but the moment a large ball group of 20 players show up at your place, despite population counter showing only 2 bars, your ping shoots up by 30-40ms? Why is it that you can be standing at your base in a pop locked campaign, with zero players around, but your ping is constantly in the high 200ms?

2) Wrobel and pretty much everyone in the development team have confirmed that while AC is an unintended mechanic, it is NOT an exploit/glitch. In fact, Wrobel even encouraged players to practice AC during a live stream. Below is the link to that stream

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=ThZtwhYkKSs&feature=emb_logo

Not only that, but ZOS released a patch that increased light attack/heavy attack damage to encourage weaving them with normal skills. It is only cheating when ZOS says it is, but AC is clearly supported by them, so I think there is nothing to argue here.

3) This argument is very weak and is extremely selfish. Skills do play out their full duration, so if anti-AC people want to enjoy looking at skill animation, there is literally nothing stopping them from letting the animations play out. What doesn't make sense is trying to force that ideology on players who do want to AC.

4) There are two types of skills in this game, instant cast and channel. With instant abilities, the effect is applied immediately as you press a skill. This means that AC on instant abilities is entirely client side, and has no bearing on the server. Can we make the claim that it is useless to attempt AC on those abilities? No, we cannot, because what AC can do with instant abilities, is to allow you to perform defensive maneuvers with basically zero tradeoffs. That is why the block change is getting blasted so much because the previous version had basically zero weak spots. According to ZOS, "Activating block while animating an ability or attack will now blend the animation more fluidly instead of completely obfuscating the attack. The core mechanics to block cancelling remain untouched, but now display more of the previous attack’s animation before your character animates the block.". While this does not change the core mechanics of block cancelling, it does add a very small cast time to block because the animation of the previous skill is displayed more. This means that when you block cancel a skill, there is a very small window where you're left vulnerable. It also feels clunky too.

On the other hand, channeled abilities only apply the effect AFTER it has completed it's full animation duration. That is why skills like Wrecking Blow, Dark Conversion, Dark Flare, etc. and ultimates with a cast time, will only deal actual damage if you go through its full animation duration. If you attempt to animation cancel channeled abilities, you will cancel it all together and deal no damage. When anti-AC people want it removed because they think AC should cancel the skill and damage all together, they are unintentionally going down a dangerous road here. You see, the only practical way for ZOS to do such a thing, is to give all abilities a cast time like they did to some ultimates. Given how much people hate that change, let me ask you, anti-AC people, do you honestly think it would be a good decision?

One last note I would like to make for anti-Animation Canceling people. I assume the AC you're referring to is light attack weaving, no? Since there are 2 separate GCD for skills and light attacks, I think the only possible way for ZOS to remove that feature completely is to give both skills and light attacks the same GCD, which forces you to pick between the two. However that would probably cause a lot of issues in PvE.

Hopefully this post will shed some light on this ongoing topic.

Animation cancelling is dumb and if we weren't meant to witness the animation of things then they wouldn't be there.

Sorry, there really is no other way to see it. The literal definition of animation cancelling is glitching the game.

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is dumb and if we weren't meant to witness the animation of things then they wouldn't be there.

Sorry, there really is no other way to see it. The literal definition of animation cancelling is glitching the game.

I mean this is common sense, it makes no sense in a video game stand point that you can just output damage, and skip animation so it just looks like you twitching all over and players can't react to what spells or skills you doing.


It is the most dumbest video game logic in the world, and the fact the devs approve of it speaks volumes.

Edziu wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is dumb and if we weren't meant to witness the animation of things then they wouldn't be there.

Sorry, there really is no other way to see it. The literal definition of animation cancelling is glitching the game.

I mean this is common sense, it makes no sense in a video game stand point that you can just output damage, and skip animation so it just looks like you twitching all over and players can't react to what spells or skills you doing.


It is the most dumbest video game logic in the world, and the fact the devs approve of it speaks volumes.

nothing better that adding even more real world laws to an vidoe game withing fiction world with magic, magic beasts etc
what about go back down on the ground and remove spells...or other...remove almost every stamina ability? it makes so much nonsense of "spells" costing "stamina" instead magica, look at spectral bow, jabs, rune focus stamina morph....this all have nothing to do with real "stamina" and it all looks like spell, something amgically summoned and you this doesnt cost your "magica points" but "stamina"
we can argue this way forever

EDIT: and btw if this logic in this game is so dumb...why you even play it then if it is that much bothering you? why do you care to play game with such dumb logic as it is "the most dumbest video game logic in the world"

Vorien wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Technically it is all animation cancelling. Part of the issue with this debate is that it is all treated as the same or some people refer to different cases when they say they like/dislike animation cancelling without being specific, and that some of it was an intended mechanic and some wasn't but people tend to generalise.

Yes generally speaking light attack weaving type of animation cancelling is primarily a technique for DPS.

Regarding whether or not a skill gets cancelled when you block in the example you describe - it depends on the the type of ability used. If it is

- an instant cast ability: the ability takes effect instantly on button press and the animation is effectively a "recovery animation". So if you press block after it the ability has effectively already happening and you are just truncating the recovery animation to perform the block. Note this is one of the tings that has changed a bit this update so varies in how well it works.
(a lot of the AC debate centres around this case, as it means you can get the effect without most of the animation)

- a channelled ability: the ability is taking effect (generally damage or healing) over the channel time, which should match the animation time. If you block during this animation, it will take priority and interrupt the channel. The animation for the ability is cancelled by the block, and the ability is also truncated so you lose whatever part of the effect is remaining.

- a cast time ability: the ability takes effect at the end of the cast time, which again should match the animation time. If you block during the animation this will cancel the animation and the skill will have no effect, as it never reached the point where it applies its effect.

Well currently your making the most sense in this thread I do appreciate the explanation,

I would like to assume that most people wouldn't have issue with block animation cancelling however if the Anti AC people dislike that then i think the game wouldn't flow well at all, you wouldn't be able to react to a situation as you would be stuck mid animation.

Maybe the anti AC people need to define what they dislike, for me personally the "light attack weaving" as you called it seems like far too much effort and a bit glitchy I can't imagine it was intended it's just a shame from what I've read that ZoS has decided to balance DPS checks around it.

Now if i can tank without doing the "LAW" then great i can at least experience the hard end game stuff without having to learn how to do it (sounds lazy i know) the block animation cancelling as you have correctly stated I'm doing instinctively.

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is dumb and if we weren't meant to witness the animation of things then they wouldn't be there.

Sorry, there really is no other way to see it. The literal definition of animation cancelling is glitching the game.

I mean this is common sense, it makes no sense in a video game stand point that you can just output damage, and skip animation so it just looks like you twitching all over and players can't react to what spells or skills you doing.


It is the most dumbest video game logic in the world, and the fact the devs approve of it speaks volumes.

nothing better that adding even more real world laws to an vidoe game withing fiction world with magic, magic beasts etc
what about go back down on the ground and remove spells...or other...remove almost every stamina ability? it makes so much nonsense of "spells" costing "stamina" instead magica, look at spectral bow, jabs, rune focus stamina morph....this all have nothing to do with real "stamina" and it all looks like spell, something amgically summoned and you this doesnt cost your "magica points" but "stamina"
we can argue this way forever

EDIT: and btw if this logic in this game is so dumb...why you even play it then if it is that much bothering you? why do you care to play game with such dumb logic as it is "the most dumbest video game logic in the world"

This folks is what you call a classic case of strawman. Why design a fantasy world, and animation if it can be skipped. A game does not have to be base on real life elements, but to dish out damage and not being able to know what it was unless you look in a combat log speaks volumes of how poorly it is.


The people who want AC got no answer for this. This exploit needs to end.

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) AC is a glitch/exploit or unintended


2) Wrobel and pretty much everyone in the development team have confirmed that while AC is an unintended mechanic, it is NOT an exploit/glitch. In fact, Wrobel even encouraged players to practice AC during a live stream. Below is the link to that stream

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=ThZtwhYkKSs&feature=emb_logo

Not only that, but ZOS released a patch that increased light attack/heavy attack damage to encourage weaving them with normal skills. It is only cheating when ZOS says it is, but AC is clearly supported by them, so I think there is nothing to argue here.

I haven't read the entire thread to see if anyone else has pointed this out - I'm sure they have - but surely you must realize that this is a classic example of "making the best of a bad situation." Just as you say it's only cheating if ZOS says it is, it's also NOT an exploit/glitch only because they say it isn't. Whether you call it an exploit or an "unintended mechanic," it remains nevertheless a screwup. The fact that they've encouraged people to exploit it - cough! I mean to work around it - and increased light/heavy attack damage to encourage people to make the best of their screwup, only confirms what people have been saying for years: that they are either unwilling or unable to fix it. (I suspect the latter.)