Bullying in 2020

Varana · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

In my opinion people have no obligation to involve themself in something that can get themselves in any form of danger, whether that be physical or emotional.

What you can do is get someone with authority involved. Such a parent, teacher, police officer.

And just for the record and to establish a baseline the definition for bullying is

: abuse and mistreatment of someone vulnerable by someone stronger, more powerful, etc. : the actions and behavior of a bully

I disagree this fits the scenario described in OP. From what I can tell it was her and one other person. Both have the capability to end the conversation at any moment through the use of in service mute/block features. So I do not interpret any lack of power on either side.

Now I did overlook that the personal information had been posted in a public chat (I am assuming ESOs public chat), in this case I agree with the other posted above who said to take screenshots and report the situation to Zenimax. That is definitely a bannable offense.

I consider the risk of danger to your person when speaking out in a game chat rather ... low. Intervening in a knife fight is a different matter but that's far from what happened here. I agree it can also be difficult in other situations where you run the risk of putting yourself in the same role as the current victim (like peer groups in schools, or similar cases).
But this was in an online chat among, essentially, strangers about a video game. It's kinda hard to think about situations with less actual risk than that.

We shouldn't just be deferring the situation to somewhat with authority. We all are responsible for what actions are tolerated, or frowned upon in our presence. It's often enough to show the bully that their behaviour is not wanted, to deter them from doing it. Silent disapproval is indistinguishable from silent approval, and the publicity of the act is often an important part of bullying - it's a display of power in front of an audience. That power play is only broken when the audience actively intervenes.
That's also why simply muting the guy may be a short-term solution for the victim in this case. But it does not absolve the others in the "room" from their responsibility to voice their disapproval.

As I said, it's not the authorities that create an environment that we want to live in, it's us. Both should work together.

darthgummibear_ESO · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

I disagree with the concept of someone being "complicit in the bullying" if they don't speak up.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -Edmund Burke

Or if you prefer the paraphrased version: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing."

Refusal to stand up for someone in situations like this absolutely makes you complicit. People die every day because of this ass-backwards mentality.

Casul · February 2020

Varana wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

In my opinion people have no obligation to involve themself in something that can get themselves in any form of danger, whether that be physical or emotional.

What you can do is get someone with authority involved. Such a parent, teacher, police officer.

And just for the record and to establish a baseline the definition for bullying is

: abuse and mistreatment of someone vulnerable by someone stronger, more powerful, etc. : the actions and behavior of a bully

I disagree this fits the scenario described in OP. From what I can tell it was her and one other person. Both have the capability to end the conversation at any moment through the use of in service mute/block features. So I do not interpret any lack of power on either side.

Now I did overlook that the personal information had been posted in a public chat (I am assuming ESOs public chat), in this case I agree with the other posted above who said to take screenshots and report the situation to Zenimax. That is definitely a bannable offense.

I consider the risk of danger to your person when speaking out in a game chat rather ... low. Intervening in a knife fight is a different matter but that's far from what happened here. I agree it can also be difficult in other situations where you run the risk of putting yourself in the same role as the current victim (like peer groups in schools, or similar cases).
But this was in an online chat among, essentially, strangers about a video game. It's kinda hard to think about situations with less actual risk than that.

We shouldn't just be deferring the situation to somewhat with authority. We all are responsible for what actions are tolerated, or frowned upon in our presence. It's often enough to show the bully that their behaviour is not wanted, to deter them from doing it. Silent disapproval is indistinguishable from silent approval, and the publicity of the act is often an important part of bullying - it's a display of power in front of an audience. That power play is only broken when the audience actively intervenes.
That's also why simply muting the guy may be a short-term solution for the victim in this case. But it does not absolve the others in the "room" from their responsibility to voice their disapproval.

As I said, it's not the authorities that create an environment that we want to live in, it's us. Both should work together.

If the damage to OP was enough to justify this as a significant issue then it is significant enough to anyone involved. I still feel that this whole thing could have been prevented sooner had the aggressive party been muted.

Another thing is we do not have both sides of the story. Although this looks pretty cut and dry I can't take a side directly until all evidence is presented to me.

hasi · February 2020

I am really sorry for you OP, I fully understand you.

I've got told to kill myself by people I used to call friends at the time.

From my experience I can say that you shouldn't let yourself be hurt by such comments, even though it's hard. In ESO there are Players, who are extremely sweet and lovely, it just takes some time to find them. Keep those close and ignore the shittalkers!❤

idk · February 2020

There is often more to the story. Something likely started before the outburst on the stream. Also, any streamer should ban people from their stream as soon as they begin acting poorly. Third, report them directly to the guild leader as you have video proof of their actions. As long as there is not a history to this that OP helped flame I expect the guild leader will not be pleased with their public outburst.

Also, by emphasizing "THE elite guild" it seems they are calling out Hodor. I cannot think of another guild on any server that would be referred to as "THE elite guild. Anyone actually familiar with the players in Hodor knows they go out of their way to help other players. I would find it odd that players like Alcast, Vana and others in their guild would permit such behavior and would just distance themselves from someone creating a problem instead of trolling them in their stream. I

I am not coming out against OP. I am just suggesting there is often more to the story and that there are better ways to handle this. I am also suggesting that in their attempt to avoid naming and shaming they are in fact shaming a guild that is likely not the guild they are referring to.

Umbro100 · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

Umbro100 wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

I agree with a portion of what you said. I disagree with the concept of someone being "complicit in the bullying" if they don't speak up. Regardless of how you look at it they are only responsible for their actions, and I would never expect someone to intervene between a dispute between two people if they are not directly involved.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Quote what you will, I stand by my opinion. If there was a dispute between another player and OP. And she did nothing to end the confrontation with the tools provided then there's not much to say. The tools are there.

Quotes I got , no worries

'There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem.'

When the neighbor is beating his kid or wife to a pulp, I do not just close the window so I do not hear the cries.
I could, because it is none of my business. But I won't, since I am choosing to make it my business.

MishMash · February 2020

BackStabeth wrote: »

I pity people who troll, who bully and grief, specially since reading a new study that has recently been published.

Scientists Scanned Brains of Bullies and Found Something Grim.

An international team of neuroscientists scanned the brains of lifelong bullies and found something grim: Bullies’ brains appear to be physically smaller than other brains.

“Our findings support the idea that, for the small proportion of individuals with life-course-persistent antisocial behaviour, there may be differences in their brain structure that make it difficult for them to develop social skills.

https://futurism.com/neoscope/scientists-scanned-bullies-brains

This is interesting, thank you for sharing it with us.

FierceSam · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

I agree with a portion of what you said. I disagree with the concept of someone being "complicit in the bullying" if they don't speak up. Regardless of how you look at it they are only responsible for their actions, and I would never expect someone to intervene between a dispute between two people if they are not directly involved.

I vehemently disagree.
If you witness someone being harassed or bullied or molested, it is your civic duty to speak up and support the victim (within reason). It is the very foundation of a free and just society.
Bullying is not a "dispute". It is the intentional harassment of others who are not of equal strength in that situation.

NB: Referring to the incident as described by the OP.

In my opinion people have no obligation to involve themself in something that can get themselves in any form of danger, whether that be physical or emotional.

What you can do is get someone with authority involved. Such a parent, teacher, police officer.

And just for the record and to establish a baseline the definition for bullying is

: abuse and mistreatment of someone vulnerable by someone stronger, more powerful, etc. : the actions and behavior of a bully

I disagree this fits the scenario described in OP. From what I can tell it was her and one other person. Both have the capability to end the conversation at any moment through the use of in service mute/block features. So I do not interpret any lack of power on either side.

Now I did overlook that the personal information had been posted in a public chat (I am assuming ESOs public chat), in this case I agree with the other posted above who said to take screenshots and report the situation to Zenimax. That is definitely a bannable offense.

The problem with your definition is that it doesn’t take into account the fact that it’s totally subjective and ultimately only the victim’s view that really matters. If they feel they’re being bullied, they’re being bullied. It’s not up to anyone else to contradict them.

It doesn’t matter if it’s just one person doing the abusing, whether it’s in public or private, the effect on the ‘bullied is the same. Finding excuses for bulling behaviour isn’t constructive.

It should not be up to the ‘bullied’ alone to police this. We should all condemn it and all the ‘service providers’ who currently attempt to deny responsibility for maintaining a civil environment should do more about it.

hasi · February 2020

idk wrote: »

Also, by emphasizing "THE elite guild" it seems they are calling out Hodor. I cannot think of another guild on any server that would be referred to as "THE elite guild.

You do know that on PC alone there are Guilds like Unchained Animals or Do Damage Don't Die etc. that are very good? Also, from what I know, Hodor doesn't even raid anymore. At least not under that name.

Plus OP might be refering to the Elite Guild of their Server.

zvavi · February 2020

Hope you feel better.

idk · February 2020

hasi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Also, by emphasizing "THE elite guild" it seems they are calling out Hodor. I cannot think of another guild on any server that would be referred to as "THE elite guild.

You do know that on PC alone there are Guilds like Unchained Animals or Do Damage Don't Die etc. that are very good? Also, from what I know, Hodor doesn't even raid anymore. At least not under that name.

Plus OP might be refering to the Elite Guild of their Server.

None of them have ever been considered "THe elite guild" Yes, many raid guilds are shells of their former self. None of the guilds you mentioned can be considered "THE elite guild" as they have not stood the test of time.

However, you do bring up a good point. OP is disparaging a lot of guilds in their attempt to only call out one without actually naming them.

Regardless, I expect there is much more to the story.

VaranisArano · February 2020

Beside general support, only advice I have as a teacher is to document everything and then start reporting it to ZOS and your streaming platform. They can handle it officially, with consequences for inappropriate behavior that those players may actually care about.

That's not to say that some people can't handle situations like this on their own, but ideally, no one should have to.

BoraxFlux · February 2020

Thokri wrote: »

You do know that his kind of behavior just encourages bullies? Some decide to bully just because dramaqueen-behavior infuriates them so much they no longer care to be polite.

Zos already is to point of fascism with their politically correct-policy enforcement.

There's to sides of the coin: some people are extreme in there sensitivm and some are too extreme in their abuse of others. If those two sides are roaming free you'll get a very unhealthy, toxic environment that will include a whole community. And even spread out to other channels of communication, I've seen some very nasty examples on gaming patforms.

Years ago I wanted to warn the admins of a gaming platform of a specific alarming case. This gaming platform was vast, had a ticket service and extremely slow moderation. And a pathetic one for your ticket: a 10 day waiting policy..... unless you paid for your account, then it was a 3 day waiting policy.
No reporting buttons back then, no priority setting for your ticket. No other way to contact them. I was even considering alarming the local police in the city of this individual. Finally I could reach to an IRL friend of his. Up to this day I don't understand why the parents of that individual let him roam free in his condition, I do understand he had no secure background. (Even bullies are people).

People now take moderation for granted or even as an annoyance, but I surely hope ESO will stick fairly close to the skin. Moderation and quick response are essential.

TheFM · February 2020

Kimid wrote: »

How sad to see that a game that I have played since Beta is still being ruined by a number of the small elite, end game community who should be supporting other players. I go out of my way to help other healers, and run a small social guild where I try to introduce people to vet content. At the same time I have had the joy of being embraced by a few amazing end game players and guilds which has given me the opportunity to complete content that only 10 people in my 250+ people social guild have ever completed. Because of that I stream, enabling them to see what the content looks like from a friendly face.

How sad that today a dozen people from THE elite end game guild found it necessary to join my stream whilst one of their guild mates revealed personal information about me in the public chat, trashed me both personally and from a gaming perspective, and then told me to go kill myself. When I asked one of the people from that guild sitting in the stream watching it go down "why" the response was 'I can't be held responsible for what a guild mate says'. Wow. You do know that people who watch other people being bullied and don't intervene are complicit in that bullying right? You should all be ashamed at the joy you found in reducing a complete stranger to tears in her own stream simply because you are bored with your own lives after completing all content in the game.

The purpose of this post is not to name you all, though I should, but to remind people this is a game where many people come to have fun. If your idea of fun is to publicly humiliate people then perhaps you need to evaluate yourself because you obviously have no moral fibre nor any actual value to add to this game.

Yep, thisis something I have noticed and tries pointing out in the past and the result was me being victim shamed. I am truly sorry you had to experience this as I have too, and the sad reality is until zos actually starts to take harassment seriously this will happen over and over. These people deserve to be publicly shamed and called out, but zos' finds it fitting to protect these ppl.

TheFM · February 2020

BackStabeth wrote: »

I pity people who troll, who bully and grief, specially since reading a new study that has recently been published.

Scientists Scanned Brains of Bullies and Found Something Grim.

An international team of neuroscientists scanned the brains of lifelong bullies and found something grim: Bullies’ brains appear to be physically smaller than other brains.

“Our findings support the idea that, for the small proportion of individuals with life-course-persistent antisocial behaviour, there may be differences in their brain structure that make it difficult for them to develop social skills.

https://futurism.com/neoscope/scientists-scanned-bullies-brains

Point is that people who display antisocial behavior in the form of bullying, trolling, griefing etc are really mentally handicapped. You can't help but feel really bad about people who behave this way. They are broken in a way that cannot be fixed, it's really kind of a cry for help. I picture them as broken down, sitting on the ground leaning against a wall balling, crying, pleading and begging for someone to help them. But there is no help for them, they have to live their lives suffering in this way. How incredibly sad.

Lol, I didn't need a study for that, and unfortunately this game is rife with them

CMDR_Un1k0rn · February 2020

Just block them. Seriously. It's so damn easy.

I wish real life were that easy.

newtinmpls · February 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

I agree with a portion of what you said. I disagree with the concept of someone being "complicit in the bullying" if they don't speak up.

I would recommend you study history a wee bit more.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke (in a letter addressed to Thomas Mercer).

And more on this idea can be found:

http://www.openculture.com/2016/03/edmund-burkeon-in-action.html

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

Mate, yThere’s no difference between trolling and bullying, just like there’s no difference between banter and abuse, they’re just terms the bullies and abusers use to try to legitimise their actions. They’re still bullies and abusers and should not be tolerated.

There is a big difference between banter and abuse. No bullying/abuse/trolling is banter and should not be considered synonyms to it.

Thokri · February 2020

TheFM wrote: »

If you think not tolerating antisocial behaviour is fascism I suggest a history book and q dictionary.

I used term fascism only because there not (yet) globally accepted term for this "pc culture" which is ultra-liberal and on behavioral patterns takes a lot fascism-style.
In essence, if you do not agree to this "pc culture" you are silenced and often removed. Only difference is on background ideolgy is not nationalism and far-right but acts are on par.
Certain parts of "englighted world" people who do not submit ultra-liberal views treatement is almost on par with textbook non-violent fascism.

Just because certain ideology is "good" does not mean it is alright that it is the only accepted view.
A lot people viewed nazism, facism and communism as good at first. Heck there are still (nutty)people who believe in these ideas.

On anti-social part, that is hard to say because so much of story is left untold. We see only one viewpoint of story and not what lead to this act.
I just see that most who do these kind of complains are often way over-sensitive and I do wonder what triggered this so called bully. On games and interne "normal anti-social" do not care enough to do anything unless something triggers them.

Also there is cultural differences, for example along finnish male gamers we use insulting words and to outsiders it could sound very harsh if we yell "go suck d, hang yourself"(Or something I just wont write here, use your imagination) on voice comms but 99% there is no ill-intent behind those words. Just banter, atleast among my generation and people I play with. I guess americans could get ptsd if they attended some of my close friends "drunk game nights" where we often play mario part/kart etc.

Kimid · February 2020

There was no "conversation". That would be a disagreement. It was a one sided 3 attack on twitch whilst I was in a raid and which revealed personal information on a public platform. This is not a person I know but definitely a person I knew of because he has been banned from many guilds. Somebody who decided belittling me on a public platform was appropriate behavior because he was bored. He was banned and reported immediately, but not before other viewers who know me and did NOT know that information alarmingly began messaging me both in game and on discord. In what context @BuildMan do you consider.it could have been handled better???? Should I stfu and roll over when he threw 20 messages at my feed in 2 minutes and told me to kill myself?

Na0cho · February 2020

If he revealed private information about you and you have the vod send it to zos.

That alone will get him banned. From eso and most likely twitch as well.

Usually I tell people to toughen up or get over it because I’m old and in my day we would just knock the bully tf out, but posting personal info online is a no no.

Matthew_Galvanus · February 2020

Kimid wrote: »

There was no "conversation". That would be a disagreement. It was a one sided 3 attack on twitch whilst I was in a raid and which revealed personal information on a public platform. This is not a person I know but definitely a person I knew of because he has been banned from many guilds. Somebody who decided belittling me on a public platform was appropriate behavior because he was bored. He was banned and reported immediately, but not before other viewers who know me and did NOT know that information alarmingly began messaging me both in game and on discord. In what context @BuildMan do you consider.it could have been handled better???? Should I stfu and roll over when he threw 20 messages at my feed in 2 minutes and told me to kill myself?

now honey you don't listen to that prattling twit Buildman. You absolutely should do all you can to destroy the person who leaked your info and harassed you. "YoU sHoUlD lEt ThE aUtHoRiTiEs HaNdLe It." this is so obviously from a boomer or gen
x-er who didn't grow up in a world where teachers and "authority" figures do bugger all to stop bullying and the zero tolerance bs harms the victim more than it does the bully.

Not to mention the disgusting amount of excuses he keeps regurgitating about how "bystanders shouldn't get involved" and how "it's not complicity to say nothing." really ticks me off.

Kimid · February 2020

Still missing the point which was "evaluate yourself and move on as you have no value to add to the game". I didn't start this thread to name shame, it was to generate conversation about not endorsing this kind of behaviour in the community.

Matthew_Galvanus · February 2020

Na0cho wrote: »

If he revealed private information about you and you have the vod send it to zos.

That alone will get him banned. From eso and most likely twitch as well.

Usually I tell people to toughen up or get over it because I’m old and in my day we would just knock the bully tf out, but posting personal info online is a no no.

back in your day the victim of said bullying wouldn't get suspended or expelled for fighting back. nowadays kids have to contend with "ZeRo ToLeRaNcE" which punishes everyone involved even if the victim didn't throw a punch or retaliate in any way.

FierceSam · February 2020

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Mate, yThere’s no difference between trolling and bullying, just like there’s no difference between banter and abuse, they’re just terms the bullies and abusers use to try to legitimise their actions. They’re still bullies and abusers and should not be tolerated.

There is a big difference between banter and abuse. No bullying/abuse/trolling is banter and should not be considered synonyms to it.

Banter is what abusers call their abuse in an attempt to legitimise it. It’s their go to excuse “ooh mate it’s just a bit of harmless banter lol get a life”.

It allows people to excuse abuse by pretending it’s funny. It’s not. It’s abuse.

gatekeeper13 · February 2020

Unfortunately there are a lot of sociopaths who are a complete failure in their real life and try to feel important in a mmo, often expressing all their complexes against other players.

Dont give me them the attention they seek. They have already been punished by being forced to live with themselves.

JanTanhide · February 2020

Those with weak minds attack those they are jealous of. It's pretty simple in my opinion and they should grow up instead of regressing to caveman behaviour. Sorry you had to experience it.

Your Stream sounds interesting! I will have to find your Stream and follow. Love watching end content Vet runs (not so much Trials. Trials get boring to me. LOL).

Take care!

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Mate, yThere’s no difference between trolling and bullying, just like there’s no difference between banter and abuse, they’re just terms the bullies and abusers use to try to legitimise their actions. They’re still bullies and abusers and should not be tolerated.

There is a big difference between banter and abuse. No bullying/abuse/trolling is banter and should not be considered synonyms to it.

Banter is what abusers call their abuse in an attempt to legitimise it. It’s their go to excuse “ooh mate it’s just a bit of harmless banter lol get a life”.

It allows people to excuse abuse by pretending it’s funny. It’s not. It’s abuse.

Which is just a bunch of humbug. It is not an excuse they have any right to use, they are bullying/abusing plain and simple, not bantering and it should be pointed out to them and others.
Banter is good-natured and pleasant for both parties. If it's not, then it's not banter.

Matthew_Galvanus · February 2020

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Unfortunately there are a lot of sociopaths who are a complete failure in their real life and try to feel important in a mmo, often expressing all their complexes against other players.

Dont give me them the attention they seek. They have already been punished by being forced to live with themselves.

ignoring them doesn't work, and you shouldn't let them continue to harass people. this kind of crap should be a bannable offense

JanTanhide · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

There is no reason why anyone should do those things, or bully someone in general. I will never get people who say things like that, telling someone to go kill themselves, and then write it off an trolling. No my friend... that IS NOT trolling. It is a toxic thing to say, not even because you don't know the person you are saying it to, it just is.

This is a game and we are all here for fun. Sorry you went thru that @Kimid.

Mate, you’re saying that as though there is any merit or benefit in trolling. The whole point of trolling is to humiliate another person.

There’s no difference between trolling and bullying, just like there’s no difference between banter and abuse, they’re just terms the bullies and abusers use to try to legitimise their actions. They’re still bullies and abusers and should not be tolerated.

There can be a difference between the two terms. For instance Trolling can be nothing but interjecting silliness into a conversation not directed at anyone. Bullying is specific to an individual or group meant to do some type of harm.