Animation cancelling needs to be reviewed for combat changes.
stevenyaub16_ESO
✭✭✭✭
First off, I'm not suggesting to change the way dpsing works mechanically from what it is now. I believe light weaving is a satisfying mechanic and for those who have mastered it, it is very rewarding and engaging when you are doing your thing.
What I do suggest is to make it alot less janky and more accessible to the majority. It would take a dedicated update to pull it off. But if all animations were re-designed and altered so they lasted only it's duration (0.8 seconds or whatever it is) and normalise it across the board and then maybe make your characters arms glow (which could be toggled in a setting) to show when you can light attack.
I have an example of arrow spray Vs Templar jabs on two ends of the spectrum. Insta and cast time just don't match their animations in many cases. It would take some refining and tinkering to get it to feel good (maybe gcd ends when bow fired, spell casted, melee impact etc)
I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
Edit: for those who don't know how combat works, all insta skills have the same GCD meaning you can light attack after the same time, but animations in most cases run over this availability window. It's much more prevalent with some casted skills like Templar jabs or DW flurry.
Edited by stevenyaub16_ESO on February 11, 2020 10:02AM What I do suggest is to make it alot less janky and more accessible to the majority. It would take a dedicated update to pull it off. But if all animations were re-designed and altered so they lasted only it's duration (0.8 seconds or whatever it is) and normalise it across the board and then maybe make your characters arms glow (which could be toggled in a setting) to show when you can light attack.
I have an example of arrow spray Vs Templar jabs on two ends of the spectrum. Insta and cast time just don't match their animations in many cases. It would take some refining and tinkering to get it to feel good (maybe gcd ends when bow fired, spell casted, melee impact etc)
I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
Edit: for those who don't know how combat works, all insta skills have the same GCD meaning you can light attack after the same time, but animations in most cases run over this availability window. It's much more prevalent with some casted skills like Templar jabs or DW flurry.
9
-
The Uninvited✭✭✭✭✭
✭It was changed before, used to be a lot less "janky" and more fluid. Don't give them any ideas please, you might not like what you get in return.Pandora's Promise (rip) | LND | Pactriotic | IKnowWhatUDidLastWinter's | The Uninvited |
Ride the paranoia | All life is pain | Only the grave is real30 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ye, lets change the entire game!
0.8 sec animation = no animation, have you even felt how 'janky' it is when things have that tiny delay?
Its a 6 year old game, new players can literally watch a guide and practice a/c its pretty easy! The days of complaining about the base mechs of this game are gone, if you aint happy by now maybe look elsewhere for entertainment, majority of people who play like it this way!7 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »First off, I'm not suggesting to change the way dpsing works. I believe light weaving is a satisfying mechanic and for those who have mastered it, it is very rewarding and engaging when you are doing your thing.
What I do suggest is to make it alot less janky and more accessible to the majority. It would take a dedicated update to pull it off. But if all animations were re-designed and altered so they lasted only it's duration (0.8 seconds or whatever it is) and normalise it across the board and then maybe make your characters arms glow (which could be toggled in a setting) to show when you can light attack.
Some of the animations are on the extreme end like jabs/flurry etc where you can light attack mid animation, and then you have those on the short side like arrow spray. If all could be normalised to a more clear notification of when your attack is "finished"
I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
I think animation cancelling is stupid regardless of the game. As they went over in their blocking video, it's essentially causing a de-sync between you and the game and it's over all just bad.
11 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Glowing arms would get very confusing for people using Slimecraw."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I find that combat feels a lot clunkier when I DON'T animation cancel.
Maybe a game shouldn't require as much practice as it takes in ESO to get combat down, but in general, when people tall me they can't animation cancel even though they practice, they're not practicing enough. You cannot do it once a month and expect to get good at it. It needs to be frequent at first (3x/week I'd recommend) and yeah, it's frustrating, but it's all about getting it into muscle memory.
Have you ever started an attack and had to roll dodge or block partway through? Congratulations, you just animation canceled. That's truly all that it is, but with light attacks most of the time.6 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Glowing arms would get very confusing for people using Slimecraw.
Oh... Oh no. I just imagined this. Throw in some Burning Spellweave too for lulz and you got a party.0 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
Xbox NA4 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
They can't without a complete rewrite of the way the priority based combat system works. They can fiddle with animation lengths, but each type of cancelling is inextricably linked because of the very base of the combat system: action priorities."It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard3 -
Madhatten512✭✭✭✭This is coming they have already started slowing combat. The people that whine and complain that a/c is what kills them are the same ones that got ult cast times, d swing cc, the new off balance change that's coming next patch, and eventually animation canceling will go too... They cater to the thumbless that's the new moto at ZOS.. If you have the reaction time of a snail come to ESO.. After everything that made combat great is gone these players will still die to something because they are just bad, and whatever that is will get nerfed too.11
-
x48rph✭✭✭✭✭
✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
They can't without a complete rewrite of the way the priority based combat system works. They can fiddle with animation lengths, but each type of cancelling is inextricably linked because of the very base of the combat system: action priorities.
They'd have to change it so the damage from stuff isn't "instant". Instant is why you can interrupt the animation to block/dodge/bash/use skill/whatever and still have your attack land because it "fires" at the beginning of the animation, except for things with cast times (or soon to be vampire drain stun :eyeroll:) which is why when you interrupt them, they don't continue and still do damage. So pretty much everything would basically have to have a cast(animation) time where you could still interrupt it but the attack doesn't 'fire' in order to truly get rid of animation cancelling and still retain the ability to react instantly with a block or dodge. While I hate animation cancelling that allows attacks to still continue, I'm really not sure how feasible it would be for them to do so without a substantial amount of work which is asking a lot at this point in ESO's life cycle, not to mention how many people it would alienate. Think you pretty much got to live with it now.1 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
They can't without a complete rewrite of the way the priority based combat system works. They can fiddle with animation lengths, but each type of cancelling is inextricably linked because of the very base of the combat system: action priorities.
They'd have to change it so the damage from stuff isn't "instant". Instant is why you can interrupt the animation to block/dodge/bash/use skill/whatever and still have your attack land because it "fires" at the beginning of the animation, except for things with cast times (or soon to be vampire drain stun :eyeroll:) which is why when you interrupt them, they don't continue and still do damage. So pretty much everything would basically have to have a cast(animation) time where you could still interrupt it but the attack doesn't 'fire' in order to truly get rid of animation cancelling and still retain the ability to react instantly with a block or dodge. While I hate animation cancelling that allows attacks to still continue, I'm really not sure how feasible it would be for them to do so without a substantial amount of work which is asking a lot at this point in ESO's life cycle, not to mention how many people it would alienate. Think you pretty much got to live with it now.
Pretty much. They adjusted block in that manner and nearly destroyed it in the process on pts. Folks don't realise it would take basically an entirely new combat system to get what they want."It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They'll polish it one day anyway, will be interesting too see if team capable of not destroying things in the process.2 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
They can't without a complete rewrite of the way the priority based combat system works. They can fiddle with animation lengths, but each type of cancelling is inextricably linked because of the very base of the combat system: action priorities.
You know you can always change the priorities in a priority based system. And you can move different types of actions (LA, block, dodge) to another category, make light attacks use the same GCD as other abilities, make block and dodge to be tied to light attacks GCD, or anything else.
Program code is not carved in stone.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
Except block casting and animation cancelling are two different things lol. With block casting, blocking and attacking most certainly are not treated separately and should not be.
As for AC, th e game shouldn't be changed to cater to those who don't do it or wont even be bothered to learn it. You'll still perform worse than people who take the game seriously and learn the things necessary to be good at it.
9 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »What’s funny about this topic is the trend in the ways people argue in favor of keeping it as it is now... The trend among the AC status quo supporters is deflection.
When the attention is on light attack cancelling the deflection into block cancelling is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that block and attack can’t be separated.
When the attention is on block cancelling the deflection into weaving is used to try and manipulate people to accept the idea that light attack and block can’t be separated.
Whichever portion of animation cancelling is getting the scrutiny, they deflect attention to the other portion in order to cloud the issue. It has happened over and over in just about every animation-cancel thread I have read.
Over and over, the supporters of the status quo have acted like blocking and attacking could not possibly ever be treated separately, with blocking/dodging being able to interrupt actions while a light attack not being able to do so.
They can't without a complete rewrite of the way the priority based combat system works. They can fiddle with animation lengths, but each type of cancelling is inextricably linked because of the very base of the combat system: action priorities.
You know you can always change the priorities in a priority based system. And you can move different types of actions (LA, block, dodge) to another category, make light attacks use the same GCD as other abilities, make block and dodge to be tied to light attacks GCD, or anything else.
Program code is not carved in stone.
That would require a complete rewrite of the current system thus making it a new system.
Did you read what happened when they tinkered with blocking on pts? They had to back off their original changes because it basically made it non functional and instead adjusted animations. Even at that point, they said the intention was not to eliminate block cancelling, but rather smooth the animations because it was causing desyncs between the client and server.
I'd hate to see the mess if they tried to change the base priority system."It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard1 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭I don't want them to change the timing or gcd, mechanically I think it works, there's just soany inconsistencies between animations as I have an example of arrow spray Vs Templar jabs on two ends of the spectrum. Insta and cast time just don't match their animations in many cases. It would take some refining and tinkering to get it to feel good (maybe gcd ends when bow fired, spell casted, melee impact etc)
I just want things to be a bit more fluid and excessible and improve endgame player growth and close the gap without taking away the skill required (just reducing the time to get there.)0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zos is making a change to animations with this patch. Block animation is being moved server side from client side changing the timing of the animation but not effecting the timing of the block.
It is an awkward change and something we need to get used to since we tend to time things off visuals but the actual block still occurs at the same time as it always has. In other words, when we see something happen, when we perceive damage coming in is often out of sync ever so slightly.2 -
bol✭✭✭The biggest problem with the combat system is that all the animation canceling mechanics, such as weaving for example, depend on server communication. So the speed at which you can perform them depends very much on your internet quality more so the proximity to the servers aka your latency.
If the client side would handle the animation canceling part this would improve the flow by a lot and even out the playing field a bit.1 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭As someone say if there isn't ani cancel things feel sluggish. (Like arrow spray) so they would have to tweak it right. But consistently.
A great example would be force pulse/shock. If they could just somehow get the right animations and rhythm down on skills it would just save alot of time training on dummies.1 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
I think you misunderstood the situation. Players are not to stupid to pull decent dps, the just dont want. They dont want to rotate and dont want to AC and dont want to min-max. They want to be real or RP'ed individuals. For example i play a solo PVP crosshealer. You cant go further away from being a template in this game.
After my time in the army i worked on a car producing assembly line. For money i needed. Not gonna do that in a game in my leisure time. Ever.
And like me the others have their reasons why the stay away from templates. Cookiecutter or meta or template.. many words for the same.
Edited by mague on February 14, 2020 10:17AM3 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭Yup, this should not be a thing. It's sad builds are made around it and would be moot without it and that sad for a AAA MMO.Edited by Nanfoodle on February 14, 2020 12:12PM1 -
Coppes✭✭✭✭stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
I think you misunderstood the situation. Players are not to stupid to pull decent dps, the just dont want. They dont want to rotate and dont want to AC and dont want to min-max. They want to be real or RP'ed individuals. For example i play a solo PVP crosshealer. You cant go further away from being a template in this game.
After my time in the army i worked on a car producing assembly line. For money i needed. Not gonna do that in a game in my leisure time. Ever.
And like me the others have their reasons why the stay away from templates. Cookiecutter or meta or template.. many words for the same.
So anyone who doesn’t AC is just a lazy RPer, say that to yourself again.4 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Animation Cancellation should be scripted into all NPCs, mobs, and bosses.
So everyone can stream it and ESO can be the laughing stock of the gaming world.3 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭Animation Canceling when it comes to roll dodging, or blocking, and bar swapping I am fine with. These give the fast paced combat that people like.
Light Attack Weaving can go to hell though. Yes, I do it, and I do it well. But it is exhausting, and it looks really stupid. It honestly makes characters look like they have Parkinson's.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc3 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The day they halve the length of the GCD and make all animations 0.5 seconds long is when they can kill LA weaving.2 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bottom line is if you don't want to A/C then don't but don't take away the option for the MAJORITY who want to!3 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
I think you misunderstood the situation. Players are not to stupid to pull decent dps, the just dont want. They dont want to rotate and dont want to AC and dont want to min-max. They want to be real or RP'ed individuals. For example i play a solo PVP crosshealer. You cant go further away from being a template in this game.
After my time in the army i worked on a car producing assembly line. For money i needed. Not gonna do that in a game in my leisure time. Ever.
And like me the others have their reasons why the stay away from templates. Cookiecutter or meta or template.. many words for the same.
Hit the nail on the head. Players dont want to animation cancel- becuase it ruins their fun. Most people believe it or not dont play games just to win fast and do big numbers, they play games for the fantasy of it. ZOS should 1000% view this as a design flaw and fix animation cancelling- not by making it impossible but by making it not be an ADVANTAGE.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.2 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »I think it would make it a much healthier player-base and bring up the lower end of dps making it easier for newer players and those learning the ropes in how to dps without having to look at 3rd party resources.
I think you misunderstood the situation. Players are not to stupid to pull decent dps, the just dont want. They dont want to rotate and dont want to AC and dont want to min-max. They want to be real or RP'ed individuals. For example i play a solo PVP crosshealer. You cant go further away from being a template in this game.
After my time in the army i worked on a car producing assembly line. For money i needed. Not gonna do that in a game in my leisure time. Ever.
And like me the others have their reasons why the stay away from templates. Cookiecutter or meta or template.. many words for the same.
Hit the nail on the head. Players dont want to animation cancel- becuase it ruins their fun. Most people believe it or not dont play games just to win fast and do big numbers, they play games for the fantasy of it. ZOS should 1000% view this as a design flaw and fix animation cancelling- not by making it impossible but by making it not be an ADVANTAGE.
I think you're missing the point that unless you want to score push or do vet hardmode, A/C isn't necessary.
I was soloing regular dungeons before I got a handle on A/C myself. There is plenty of content that people can have fun with and clear without A/C.
Now I can see you saying, "but they'll get kicked from the group finder without elite dps" and I'll say that's a problem with jerks in the group finder, not game design.
As far as Cyrodiil goes, my personal experience is that light attack weaving and block cancelling do help, but it's also not necessary to be successful. Half the time LA's don't fire anyway.
You yourself said you find no fun in score pushing or speed runs. Well guess what!? You already don't need A/C for the rest of the content.
Leave the challenge of mastering the toughest content attached to mastering the combat design. Everything else is accessible."It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard3
