Can someone from ZOS please explain to me why you've decided to completely ruin Nightblades?
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FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »Videos are great, but charts are from Unified Gaming, so another source. Basically every ranking created by veteran PvP players put blades really low comparing to other classes. Looks like they all agree that, even if blade can be efficient in right hands, it is the weakest among the classes
Unified Gaming is fantastic, but those are Isth3reno1else's charts. I can assure you of it because I have inside informationthat's me
We both worked together on each other's charts. I helped unified with his and he helped me with mine.
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Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭To everyone saying "LOLZ, just play a different class": if you seriously think that not playing the class you enjoy is an adequate solution to the problem, you don't know what the word "solution" means.
1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class.
2. You do realize that if your "solution" to the problem is not playing Nightblade, you just proved my point that they are underpowered relative to the other classes, right?
Does any other class generate this may poorly thought out rationalizations for why it needs to be/stay weaker than the other classes? This is absurd.
"1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class."
ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
2. You do realize that if your "solution" to the problem is not playing Nightblade, you just proved my point that they are underpowered relative to the other classes, right?
No, as I and others have stated, it's been nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes. It doesn't prove that the class is 'woefully underpowered'. Not only that, the above assertion completely ignores the fact that you've attempted to evade every counter point that doesn't deal directly with BG's. So, how is it that you can feel like people are here proving your point, which is a generalization, when you're not even taking every aspect of the game into account?Edited by Kahnak on February 8, 2020 8:50PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »
True, but the problem is most people don't know how to use it. Other classes like stam templers and Sorcs have easier rotations to play. To be good at nightblades (and a few other classes), you actually have to put in the time to learn the best skills and correct rotation to use them.
Players just want their classes to have strengths in their own ways to take down their opponents. When you're having a hard time killing high healing classes because of a large single target delay on your "burst", and literally every other class has a better version of burst...it's not wrong to ask for buffs, especially as the Assassin class.
I get more burst on my stamden, stamcro, or mag/stamplar than I do nightblade, on top of being tankier or having more healing. The latter part is fine because nightblades have cloak, that's their survival...but burst is lacking.5 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭
"1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class."
ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
Zenimax wouldn't know about the issues with classes, gear or skills without player feedback. That's what the PTS and the forums are for. There's nothing wrong with nerfing over-performing skills and ultimates, and at one point incap was incredibly overtuned. It's not anymore. Fear at one point was amazing, now it's not. Other classes that used to lack burst now have it, and nightblade lost theirs, especially relative to other classes.
Zenimax heard the feedback(the criers having ulcers, as you put it) about nightblades ~ a year ago and they nerfed them. Now people are providing feedback that it's too much and buffs in the other direction are needed.Edited by FrankonPC on February 8, 2020 8:58PM6 -
furiouslog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »furiouslog wrote: »
Well then your comment isn't particularly relevant or helpful. As I said, I mostly play in BGs — and in higher MMR BGs Nightblades are garbage (especially Magblades.)xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Another NB whining thread ?
Enough of that, the class is OP for those that know how to use it
Agreed ^ nightblades need some buffs. I am however a bit perplexed by people claiming they are so bad when they are not.
My first character was a magblade and my second character was a stamblade. They are both still playing strong in Cyro. The only difference is there are a lot of bad nbs playing rn. I love it that NBs are no longer a casual class, as @Mayrael put it once.
Keep updated with your class. Make sure to play with good PvPers and learn from them. Being social and being known in PvP by your fellow players and with other dueling peeps helps a lot too !! If you put the time into the class learning it in depth it is worth it.
I do mean this in a good way OP.
Soooooo get out of your depressed state and go see for yourself....Cx
Good Luck
I'm sure they do just fine in Cyrodiil zergs, but that's not my bag. If you're on PC NA, hop on your magblade & we can group up & do some BGs together. You can show me how "OP" they are.
I play solo or with two others.
1. I never said I don't do well, I said Nightblades are the weakest class. No one who knows what they're talking about disputes this.If you’re not doing well that is on you. Then just complain on a forum that has other NBs that have no issue soloing such as myself.
2. Again, the fact that you "have no issue soloing" is irrelevant.
You have no clue what my skill level is. Like I said, let's queue for some BGs together and you can find out. Based on your perception of the class, I doubt you play in many high MMR BGs — if you queue with me you will, and I guarantee you'll see things differently. As far as my "mindset," I just want ZOS to fix what they broke.You then will end up staying where you are right now with your skill level and mind set GG
I know — I am the OP. You said you agreed with the post you were responding to, and that person said "...the class is OP..." My comment was referring to that.This line I do mean this in a good way OP. OP means original poster
Where did those charts come from?
@furiouslog
Isth3reno1else did a series of 4 videos ranking the classes based on solo, small group, and large group PVP.
Definitely worth a watch:
Videos are great, but charts are from Unified Gaming, so another source. Basically every ranking created by veteran PvP players put blades really low comparing to other classes. Looks like they all agree that, even if blade can be efficient in right hands, it is the weakest among the classes
I don't doubt that one person's analysis combined with an unscientific sample of SMEs is informative, but it is not an objective benchmark of class ability. Looking at a large sample of BG players and correlating class with various statistics would objectively tell you whether or not NBs have the potential to be successful, and even then class selection would be biased within that sample due to influence by personal preferences not linked to success.
Furthermore, if you take a look at a sample of vet trials on Esologs, NBs are the second highest ranked class in actual performance underneath Sorcs. As such, the OP's position that NBs have been nerfed to uselessness does not appear to be correct. He acknowledges that it could just be a PvP issue, but the supporting evidence for that is entirely opinion based. There is evidence that a subset of vocal PvP players believe that NBs have taken an unfair hit, but there is no evidence to support the conclusion that NBs have actually taken an unfair hit, particularly when accounting for the evidence from the PvE side of things.
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭furiouslog wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »furiouslog wrote: »
Well then your comment isn't particularly relevant or helpful. As I said, I mostly play in BGs — and in higher MMR BGs Nightblades are garbage (especially Magblades.)xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »Another NB whining thread ?
Enough of that, the class is OP for those that know how to use it
Agreed ^ nightblades need some buffs. I am however a bit perplexed by people claiming they are so bad when they are not.
My first character was a magblade and my second character was a stamblade. They are both still playing strong in Cyro. The only difference is there are a lot of bad nbs playing rn. I love it that NBs are no longer a casual class, as @Mayrael put it once.
Keep updated with your class. Make sure to play with good PvPers and learn from them. Being social and being known in PvP by your fellow players and with other dueling peeps helps a lot too !! If you put the time into the class learning it in depth it is worth it.
I do mean this in a good way OP.
Soooooo get out of your depressed state and go see for yourself....Cx
Good Luck
I'm sure they do just fine in Cyrodiil zergs, but that's not my bag. If you're on PC NA, hop on your magblade & we can group up & do some BGs together. You can show me how "OP" they are.
I play solo or with two others.
1. I never said I don't do well, I said Nightblades are the weakest class. No one who knows what they're talking about disputes this.If you’re not doing well that is on you. Then just complain on a forum that has other NBs that have no issue soloing such as myself.
2. Again, the fact that you "have no issue soloing" is irrelevant.
You have no clue what my skill level is. Like I said, let's queue for some BGs together and you can find out. Based on your perception of the class, I doubt you play in many high MMR BGs — if you queue with me you will, and I guarantee you'll see things differently. As far as my "mindset," I just want ZOS to fix what they broke.You then will end up staying where you are right now with your skill level and mind set GG
I know — I am the OP. You said you agreed with the post you were responding to, and that person said "...the class is OP..." My comment was referring to that.This line I do mean this in a good way OP. OP means original poster
Where did those charts come from?
@furiouslog
Isth3reno1else did a series of 4 videos ranking the classes based on solo, small group, and large group PVP.
Definitely worth a watch:
Videos are great, but charts are from Unified Gaming, so another source. Basically every ranking created by veteran PvP players put blades really low comparing to other classes. Looks like they all agree that, even if blade can be efficient in right hands, it is the weakest among the classes
I don't doubt that one person's analysis combined with an unscientific sample of SMEs is informative, but it is not an objective benchmark of class ability. Looking at a large sample of BG players and correlating class with various statistics would objectively tell you whether or not NBs have the potential to be successful, and even then class selection would be biased within that sample due to influence by personal preferences not linked to success.
Furthermore, if you take a look at a sample of vet trials on Esologs, NBs are the second highest ranked class in actual performance underneath Sorcs. As such, the OP's position that NBs have been nerfed to uselessness does not appear to be correct. He acknowledges that it could just be a PvP issue, but the supporting evidence for that is entirely opinion based. There is evidence that a subset of vocal PvP players believe that NBs have taken an unfair hit, but there is no evidence to support the conclusion that NBs have actually taken an unfair hit, particularly when accounting for the evidence from the PvE side of things.
Huh? Aren’t stamcros still at the top? What are you taking about.
PvE strength also has nothing to do with pvp. In pve you can have other players heal for you, in pvp settings where this is true like large groups NB does okay, if it’s a smaller group or solo where you can’t rely on someone else for healing they don’t do well.
I have better self healing on my magplar damage dealer spec then I do on my magblade healer spec.Edited by Iskiab on February 8, 2020 10:17PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten3 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭furiouslog wrote: »
I don't doubt that one person's analysis combined with an unscientific sample of SMEs is informative, but it is not an objective benchmark of class ability. Looking at a large sample of BG players and correlating class with various statistics would objectively tell you whether or not NBs have the potential to be successful, and even then class selection would be biased within that sample due to influence by personal preferences not linked to success.
Furthermore, if you take a look at a sample of vet trials on Esologs, NBs are the second highest ranked class in actual performance underneath Sorcs. As such, the OP's position that NBs have been nerfed to uselessness does not appear to be correct. He acknowledges that it could just be a PvP issue, but the supporting evidence for that is entirely opinion based. There is evidence that a subset of vocal PvP players believe that NBs have taken an unfair hit, but there is no evidence to support the conclusion that NBs have actually taken an unfair hit, particularly when accounting for the evidence from the PvE side of things.
In pvp, player's play the classes that are easiest, or best for pvp. Whether it's abusing ultimates like destro ult from 2-3 years ago, the bash ult from last year etc... but not just broken skills or abilities, players flock to builds and playstyles that are effective. When you look at the average group comp in a well organized/good pvp group, how many of them are nightblades? Now, how many of them are any other class?
The players point to the disparity more often than not, through the classes and builds they choose.3 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭You said NB are the weakest class, but then proceed to backpedal when confronted with anecdotes about PvE and Cyrodil PvP to the point where you have to clarify that you are speaking almost exclusively about BG's. The distinction needs to be made, because NB are obviously not the weakest class overall. Otherwise you're just muddling the actual point by continuing to move the goalpost when someone challenges your generalization. The fact they are the weakest in a single aspect of the game does not mean that they are broken. Someone has to be on the bottom and it's NB's turn. You know what the rest of us do? Make a new class until ZOS buffs them again.
NB's: MY CLASS IS BROKEN. ZOS WHY ARE YOU RUINING MY LIFE!
Other Classes: First time, eh?
1. I didn't "backpedal," I clarified the point I was trying to make. There is a [sizable] difference. I agree that I should have specified that my post was geared mostly towards PVP, and I remedied that when I realized my error in not doing so.
2. "Anecdotes" are not evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
3. No, NBs are weak in PVP in general, and this is widely recognized. Even solo, where NB supposedly shine, most other classes do at least as well, if not better. This is only controversial to people who don't know what they are talking about or are being intellectually dishonest — which one are you?
4. Didn't move goalposts. See #1.
5. I have played other classes and they didn't hold my interest. If they did, we wouldn't be having this tedious conversation.
6. I didn't say ZOS ruined my life, I said they ruined the class. Please learn to read.ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
1. What do you call nerfing a class to the point that they are non-viable for certain aspects of the game, if not "damaging" it?
2. No kidding. I don't have issues with ZOS balancing the game, but the level of nerfs to NBs paired with the buffs that other classes received has made the class decidedly unbalanced — and not in a good way.
3. I've been playing the class for eleven months now and it has gotten progressively worse with every update — again: while most other classes were getting buffed. That is not "a mundane round of nerfs."
4. No. "THE solution" is for ZOS to bring the class into line with the others. Why do I even need to explain this?
5. Not everyone wants to chase the meta. If you only play the FOTM classes, more power to ya — that's not how I roll. I found a class I enjoy, and I'd like it if it were competitive with the other classes. There are [clearly] many other people out there that feel the same way I do. Why TF do you even care?
6. I'm not "throwing a tantrum," I am providing feedback to ZOS, of whom I am a paying customer.
7. In roughly half of the BGs I play in, I am the only NB. In the other half, there is one, maybe two others. The only other class that is even as close to being as underrepresented is Necro, and they are behind a paywall. (And to be honest, in the higher MMR you see quite a few of those as well.) Contrast that to the other classes: I frequently see as many as 6 to 8 Templars/DKs/Sorcs/Wardens at a time in higher tier BGs. If NBs aren't underpowered, what accounts for that discrepancy in your mind? What caused such a change? Again, are you ignorant or just dishonest? If it's the former that's OK, but you shouldn't be throwing your 2 cents in on things you don't understand. If it's the latter, well that's not OK.No, as I and others have stated, it's been nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes. It doesn't prove that the class is 'woefully underpowered'. Not only that, the above assertion completely ignores the fact that you've attempted to evade every counter point that doesn't deal directly with BG's. So, how is it that you can feel like people are here proving your point, which is a generalization, when you're not even taking every aspect of the game into account?
1. If you are willing to admit that NBs are "nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes," why TF are we even having this conversation??? That is literally the point of my entire post. So you want it split hairs over whether it is "underpowered" or "woefully underpowered"? Good grief.
2. I haven't "evaded" anything.
3. Saying "play another class" is essentially saying the other classes are stronger. If you're unable to see how that reinforces my contention, then I don't know what to tell you.
In any case, bickering back and forth will get us nowhere, so how about this: if you're on PC NA, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hop on your NB (preferably magblade, so as to reduce the number of variables) and join me for an evening of BGs. I'm fairly confident in two things: 1) I will do better than you by a not-insignificant margin, and 2) despite that, my scores will still be extremely lackluster relative to the other classes. (That is, if you even have a NB or play PVP — and based on this conversation, I suspect neither of those are true.)
In any case, I'm done with this back-and-forth — I don't see it getting us anywhere.
RegardsEdited by Langeston on February 8, 2020 11:06PM6 -
Shardaxx✭✭✭✭✭I agree but I'm not sure its worth pointing this stuff out on the forums. ZOS only appear to delete posts and close threads down, they never seem to actually listen. Well I cancelled my subs, mostly due to the poor game performance on PS4 atm but also because my NB main has been nerfed too much. Maybe if enough players stop giving them money they might listen?
ZOS shuts down threads because most of these threads devolve into individual "NO U" arguments that don't serve any purpose. I've never seen ZOS close a thread simply because of criticism. OP's title is obviously adversarial and this thread hasn't been shut down, so I don't know why this accusation of censorship keep coming up. I also find it a little self-serving to suggest that other people should stop paying for subs to try and strongarm ZOS into buffing your main.
Not true, they locked multiple threads where people were complaining about the ABYSMAL crashing and performance issues recently. I'm only saying stop paying if you agree, and like I said, unsubbing for me was mainly due to the performance but the nerfs also annoyed me, it was nerf after nerf last year. Well I'm playing for free now, when I can be bothered, and for pvp that really doesn't make a jot of difference. I'd encourage anyone who mainly does pvp to do the same. ZOS exists to make money, so of course hitting them in the pocket is the only thing they will respond to. It's a shame its come to this tho.PS4 - Europe - Shardaxx - Wood Elf Nightblade - Aldmeri Dominion3 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭
"1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class."
ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
Zenimax wouldn't know about the issues with classes, gear or skills without player feedback. That's what the PTS and the forums are for. There's nothing wrong with nerfing over-performing skills and ultimates, and at one point incap was incredibly overtuned. It's not anymore. Fear at one point was amazing, now it's not. Other classes that used to lack burst now have it, and nightblade lost theirs, especially relative to other classes.
Zenimax heard the feedback(the criers having ulcers, as you put it) about nightblades ~ a year ago and they nerfed them. Now people are providing feedback that it's too much and buffs in the other direction are needed.
Hi Frank, you strike me as a reasonable guy. Is the below something that you would consider reasonable or unreasonable feedback?
Can someone from ZOS please explain to me why you've decided to completely ruin Nightblades?
It seems to me that you may not have been following the entire thread, but feedback is not the same as a throwing a tantrum. There are plenty of other folks besides the OP in this thread who have provided plenty of valid constructive criticism. As you can see in the post that you quoted, I acknowledge that the class was nerfed. I also stated, and I stand by the statement, that the class will receive a buff in the future - just like every other class. If you do decide to read the thread, you'll see that I haven't really challenged any person but the OP on their feedback. You can pretend that the OMG MY NB LIFE IS OVER threads are feedback if you like, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that's not the first place ZOS is going to visit for buff ideas.Edited by Kahnak on February 8, 2020 11:47PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NBs are in a bad spot, thats true. You can see it by drastical decrease of players choosing the class. Eventhough Stamblades may feel worse than ever, they are still better than Magblades. The reason why it may feel different is that Magblades are in a bad spot for more than a year, while for Stamblades its something new.
But as I mentioned many times before, Im kinda happy right now. Build I've managed to create for my magblade allows me to 1v1 almost anyone playing any class (sometimes even emps) and stay efficient in open world PvP, additionaly this build wont get hurt in next update so Im even happier. Im affraid to get buffed, because with ZOS ideas, in the end it can lead to even worse state of NB than we have now.
At least nobody can tell us: "you play ez mode". Those of us who managed to make NBs working well, are gaining some serious respect.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
"1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class."
ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
Zenimax wouldn't know about the issues with classes, gear or skills without player feedback. That's what the PTS and the forums are for. There's nothing wrong with nerfing over-performing skills and ultimates, and at one point incap was incredibly overtuned. It's not anymore. Fear at one point was amazing, now it's not. Other classes that used to lack burst now have it, and nightblade lost theirs, especially relative to other classes.
Zenimax heard the feedback(the criers having ulcers, as you put it) about nightblades ~ a year ago and they nerfed them. Now people are providing feedback that it's too much and buffs in the other direction are needed.
Hi Frank, you strike me as a reasonable guy. Is the below something that you would consider reasonable or unreasonable feedback?
Can someone from ZOS please explain to me why you've decided to completely ruin Nightblades?
It seems to me that you may not have been following the entire thread, but feedback is not the same as a throwing a tantrum. There are plenty of other folks besides the OP in this thread who have provided plenty of valid constructive criticism. As you can see in the post that you quoted, I acknowledge that the class was nerfed. I also stated, and I stand by the statement, that the class will receive a buff in the future - just like every other class. If you do decide to read the thread, you'll see that I haven't really challenged any person but the OP on their feedback. You can pretend that the OMG MY NB LIFE IS OVER threads are feedback if you like, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that's not the first place ZOS is going to visit for buff ideas.
Well besides werewolves I can’t see why they’d buff anything else at this point. Or do you mean where they’d come up with ideas for buffing the class?
Almost all ‘buff my class’ threads are a joke and L2P issues, NB’s different. You have to realize a lot of the people saying NB needs a buff don’t even play one anymore, soon there will be no feedback threads because no one will be playing one, like werewolves.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭You said NB are the weakest class, but then proceed to backpedal when confronted with anecdotes about PvE and Cyrodil PvP to the point where you have to clarify that you are speaking almost exclusively about BG's. The distinction needs to be made, because NB are obviously not the weakest class overall. Otherwise you're just muddling the actual point by continuing to move the goalpost when someone challenges your generalization. The fact they are the weakest in a single aspect of the game does not mean that they are broken. Someone has to be on the bottom and it's NB's turn. You know what the rest of us do? Make a new class until ZOS buffs them again.
NB's: MY CLASS IS BROKEN. ZOS WHY ARE YOU RUINING MY LIFE!
Other Classes: First time, eh?
1. I didn't "backpedal," I clarified the point I was trying to make. There is a [sizable] difference. I agree that I should have specified that my post was geared mostly towards PVP, and I remedied that when I realized my error in not doing so.
3. No, NBs are weak in PVP in general, and this is widely recognized. Even solo, where NB supposedly shine, most other classes do at least as well, if not better. This is only controversial to people who don't know what they are talking about or are being intellectually dishonest — which one are you?
4. Didn't move goalposts. See #1.
5. I have played other classes and they didn't hold my interest. If they did, we wouldn't be having this tedious conversation.
6. I didn't say ZOS ruined my life, I said they ruined the class. Please learn to read.ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
1. What do you call nerfing a class to the point that they are non-viable for certain aspects of the game, if not "damaging" it?
2. No kidding. I don't have issues with ZOS balancing the game, but the level of nerfs to NBs paired with the buffs that other classes received has made the class decidedly unbalanced — and not in a good way.
3. I've been playing the class for eleven months now and it has gotten progressively worse with every update — again: while most other classes were getting buffed. That is not "a mundane round of nerfs."
4. No. "THE solution" is for ZOS to bring the class into line with the others. Why do I even need to explain this?
5. Not everyone wants to chase the meta. If you only play the FOTM classes, more power to ya — that's not how I roll. I found a class I enjoy, and I'd like it if it were competitive with the other classes. There are [clearly] many other people out there that feel the same way I do. Why TF do you even care?
6. I'm not "throwing a tantrum," I am providing feedback to ZOS, of whom I am a paying customer.
7. In roughly half of the BGs I play in, I am the only NB. In the other half, there is one, maybe two others. The only other class that is even as close to being as underrepresented is Necro, and they are behind a paywall. (And to be honest, in the higher MMR you see quite a few of those as well.) Contrast that to the other classes: I frequently see as many as 6 to 8 Templars/DKs/Sorcs/Wardens at a time in higher tier BGs. If NBs aren't underpowered, what accounts for that discrepancy in your mind? What caused such a change? Again, are you ignorant or just dishonest? If it's the former that's OK, but you shouldn't be throwing your 2 cents in on things you don't understand. If it's the latter, well that's not OK.No, as I and others have stated, it's been nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes. It doesn't prove that the class is 'woefully underpowered'. Not only that, the above assertion completely ignores the fact that you've attempted to evade every counter point that doesn't deal directly with BG's. So, how is it that you can feel like people are here proving your point, which is a generalization, when you're not even taking every aspect of the game into account?
1. If you are willing to admit that NBs are "nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes," why TF are we even having this conversation??? That is literally the point of my entire post. So you want it split hairs over whether it is "underpowered" or "woefully underpowered"? Good grief.
2. I haven't "evaded" anything.
3. Saying "play another class" is essentially saying the other classes are stronger. If you're unable to see how that reinforces my contention, then I don't know what to tell you.
In any case, bickering back and forth will get us nowhere, so how about this: if you're on PC NA, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hop on your NB (preferably magblade, so as to reduce the number of variables) and join me for an evening of BGs. I'm fairly confident in two things: 1) I will do better than you by a not-insignificant margin, and 2) despite that, my scores will still be extremely lackluster relative to the other classes. (That is, if you even have a NB or play PVP — and based on this conversation, I suspect neither of those are true.)
In any case, I'm done with this back-and-forth — I don't see it getting us anywhere.
Regards
This is going to be long.
1. I didn't "backpedal," I clarified the point I was trying to make. There is a [sizable] difference. I agree that I should have specified that my post was geared mostly towards PVP, and I remedied that when I realized my error in not doing so.
Sure did, but it's because your original premise was obviously wrong.
2. "Anecdotes" are not evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
It's not a logical fallacy if the word 'evidence' wasn't used. I'm the one who suggested that it was anecdotal. The hilarious part is, all it took were several anecdotes about PvE and Cyrodil to get you to go back and make a revision to your original post because it was so obviously incorrect.
3. No, NBs are weak in PVP in general, and this is widely recognized. Even solo, where NB supposedly shine, most other classes do at least as well, if not better. This is only controversial to people who don't know what they are talking about or are being intellectually dishonest — which one are you?
Oh, look, a gotcha! They are weak in PvP relative to other classes, which I have already acknowledged. They are not broken or ruined, which is what you have alleged. You're only conflating the two because it makes you sound less unreasonable.
5. I have played other classes and they didn't hold my interest. If they did, we wouldn't be having this tedious conversation.
This is the tedious thread you started.
6. I didn't say ZOS ruined my life, I said they ruined the class. Please learn to read.
This is hilarious. The king of NB hyperbole is going to act like he didn't immediately recognize another hyperbolic statement. Ok. *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* I believe you.
1. What do you call nerfing a class to the point that they are non-viable for certain aspects of the game, if not "damaging" it?
Doesn't understand the difference between optimal and viable. Pretending that the class isn't even viable is ridiculous. It's simply not optimal, which has been the case for every nerfed class ever. If they weren't viable, you wouldn't be getting any kills.
2. No kidding. I don't have issues with ZOS balancing the game, but the level of nerfs to NBs paired with the buffs that other classes received has made the class decidedly unbalanced — and not in a good way.
The class WAS unbalanced in a good way (for NB players). Then it was made NOT unbalanced and that's why you're here having this tedious conversation.
3. I've been playing the class for eleven months now and it has gotten progressively worse with every update — again: while most other classes were getting buffed. That is not "a mundane round of nerfs."
This tells me everything that I already knew. You haven't even been playing this class for an entire chapter. How would you have any concept of what a round of nerfs looks like relative to every other round of nerfs? You wouldn't.
4. No. "THE solution" is for ZOS to bring the class into line with the others. Why do I even need to explain this?
I know this is a hard concept to understand, but if we can agree that the class will eventually be buffed again, as all classes are, THEN THE CLASS WILL BE BROUGHT INTO LINE WITH THE OTHERS EVENTUALLY. FOR NOW, THE SOLUTION WILL BE TO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS. I don't know why this isn't self-evident.
5. Not everyone wants to chase the meta. If you only play the FOTM classes, more power to ya — that's not how I roll. I found a class I enjoy, and I'd like it if it were competitive with the other classes. There are [clearly] many other people out there that feel the same way I do. Why TF do you even care?
I guess you can be forgiven for not understanding that NB have been the meta for years because, as you said, you've only been playing NB for 11 months. They are only recently not meta. So, whether knowingly or unknowingly, you have been the meta FOTM and now you've been nerfed. Welcome to an MMO.
6. I'm not "throwing a tantrum," I am providing feedback to ZOS, of whom I am a paying customer.
An openly adversarial, entitled demand for an explanation is 'feedback' now.
I've got a bridge to sell you.
7. In roughly half of the BGs I play in, I am the only NB. In the other half, there is one, maybe two others. The only other class that is even as close to being as underrepresented is Necro, and they are behind a paywall. (And to be honest, in the higher MMR you see quite a few of those as well.) Contrast that to the other classes: I frequently see as many as 6 to 8 Templars/DKs/Sorcs/Wardens at a time in higher tier BGs. If NBs aren't underpowered, what accounts for that discrepancy in your mind? What caused such a change? Again, are you ignorant or just dishonest? If it's the former that's OK, but you shouldn't be throwing your 2 cents in on things you don't understand. If it's the latter, well that's not OK.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
You people wonder why ZOS closes down these threads when the best you can do is name call.
"I was just trying to provide feedback and ZOS totally deleted my thread! I'm being censored! How dishonest!"
1. If you are willing to admit that NBs are "nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes," why TF are we even having this conversation??? That is literally the point of my entire post. So you want it split hairs over whether it is "underpowered" or "woefully underpowered"? Good grief.
Yes, because 'nerfed' and 'woefully underpowered' are not anywhere near the same thing. You can nerf something and it still be meta, if that hasn't occurred to you. Just because something has been nerfed, does not classify it as non-viable, woefully underpowered, broken, ruined or any of the other hyperbolic adjectives you've employed.
2. I haven't "evaded" anything.
Oh, OK. Now I'm convinced.
3. Saying "play another class" is essentially saying the other classes are stronger. If you're unable to see how that reinforces my contention, then I don't know what to tell you.
Actually, it could mean any number of things. Here are a few examples:
"Play another class because you haven't spent enough time playing NB to be good at NB."
"Play another class because you weren't that great at it in the first place."
"Play another class because they are easier to master than NB.
In any case, bickering back and forth will get us nowhere, so how about this: if you're on PC NA, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hop on your NB (preferably magblade, so as to reduce the number of variables) and join me for an evening of BGs. I'm fairly confident in two things: 1) I will do better than you by a not-insignificant margin, and 2) despite that, my scores will still be extremely lackluster relative to the other classes. (That is, if you even have a NB or play PVP — and based on this conversation, I suspect neither of those are true.)
"In any case, how about this: Totally come at me, bro. Seriously, do.you.even.lift?"
That's some real big PP talk there, my guy.Edited by Kahnak on February 9, 2020 12:48AMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭
"1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class."
ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
Zenimax wouldn't know about the issues with classes, gear or skills without player feedback. That's what the PTS and the forums are for. There's nothing wrong with nerfing over-performing skills and ultimates, and at one point incap was incredibly overtuned. It's not anymore. Fear at one point was amazing, now it's not. Other classes that used to lack burst now have it, and nightblade lost theirs, especially relative to other classes.
Zenimax heard the feedback(the criers having ulcers, as you put it) about nightblades ~ a year ago and they nerfed them. Now people are providing feedback that it's too much and buffs in the other direction are needed.
Hi Frank, you strike me as a reasonable guy. Is the below something that you would consider reasonable or unreasonable feedback?
Can someone from ZOS please explain to me why you've decided to completely ruin Nightblades?
It seems to me that you may not have been following the entire thread, but feedback is not the same as a throwing a tantrum. There are plenty of other folks besides the OP in this thread who have provided plenty of valid constructive criticism. As you can see in the post that you quoted, I acknowledge that the class was nerfed. I also stated, and I stand by the statement, that the class will receive a buff in the future - just like every other class. If you do decide to read the thread, you'll see that I haven't really challenged any person but the OP on their feedback. You can pretend that the OMG MY NB LIFE IS OVER threads are feedback if you like, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that's not the first place ZOS is going to visit for buff ideas.
Well besides werewolves I can’t see why they’d buff anything else at this point. Or do you mean where they’d come up with ideas for buffing the class?
Almost all ‘buff my class’ threads are a joke and L2P issues, NB’s different. You have to realize a lot of the people saying NB needs a buff don’t even play one anymore, soon there will be no feedback threads because no one will be playing one, like werewolves.
Almost all ‘buff my class’ threads are a joke and L2P issues, NB’s different. You have to realize a lot of the people saying NB needs a buff don’t even play one anymore, soon there will be no feedback threads because no one will be playing one, like werewolves
A "lot of the people" obviously don't count as the OP, because this one is literally complaining about playing NB.
Werewolves are not a class.
This is still one of the most popular classes in the game, dude. Are you really suggesting that no one is going to be playing it soon? Get real.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is going to be long.
1. I didn't "backpedal," I clarified the point I was trying to make. There is a [sizable] difference. I agree that I should have specified that my post was geared mostly towards PVP, and I remedied that when I realized my error in not doing so.
Sure did, but it's because your original premise was obviously wrong.
2. "Anecdotes" are not evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
It's not a logical fallacy if the word 'evidence' wasn't used. I'm the one who suggested that it was anecdotal. The hilarious part is, all it took were several anecdotes about PvE and Cyrodil to get you to go back and make a revision to your original post because it was so obviously incorrect.
3. No, NBs are weak in PVP in general, and this is widely recognized. Even solo, where NB supposedly shine, most other classes do at least as well, if not better. This is only controversial to people who don't know what they are talking about or are being intellectually dishonest — which one are you?
Oh, look, a gotcha! They are weak in PvP relative to other classes, which I have already acknowledged. They are not broken or ruined, which is what you have alleged. You're only conflating the two because it makes you sound less unreasonable.
5. I have played other classes and they didn't hold my interest. If they did, we wouldn't be having this tedious conversation.
This is the tedious thread you started.
6. I didn't say ZOS ruined my life, I said they ruined the class. Please learn to read.
This is hilarious. The king of NB hyperbole is going to act like he didn't immediately recognize another hyperbolic statement. Ok. *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* I believe you.
1. What do you call nerfing a class to the point that they are non-viable for certain aspects of the game, if not "damaging" it?
Doesn't understand the difference between optimal and viable. Pretending that the class isn't even viable is ridiculous. It's simply not optimal, which has been the case for every nerfed class ever. If they weren't viable, you wouldn't be getting any kills.
2. No kidding. I don't have issues with ZOS balancing the game, but the level of nerfs to NBs paired with the buffs that other classes received has made the class decidedly unbalanced — and not in a good way.
The class WAS unbalanced in a good way (for NB players). Then it was made NOT unbalanced and that's why you're here having this tedious conversation.
3. I've been playing the class for eleven months now and it has gotten progressively worse with every update — again: while most other classes were getting buffed. That is not "a mundane round of nerfs."
This tells me everything that I already knew. You haven't even been playing this class for an entire chapter. How would you have any concept of what a round of nerfs looks like relative to every other round of nerfs? You wouldn't.
4. No. "THE solution" is for ZOS to bring the class into line with the others. Why do I even need to explain this?
I know this is a hard concept to understand, but if we can agree that the class will eventually be buffed again, as all classes are, THEN THE CLASS WILL BE BROUGHT INTO LINE WITH THE OTHERS EVENTUALLY. FOR NOW, THE SOLUTION WILL BE TO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS. I don't know why this isn't self-evident.
5. Not everyone wants to chase the meta. If you only play the FOTM classes, more power to ya — that's not how I roll. I found a class I enjoy, and I'd like it if it were competitive with the other classes. There are [clearly] many other people out there that feel the same way I do. Why TF do you even care?
I guess you can be forgiven for not understanding that NB have been the meta for years because, as you said, you've only been playing NB for 11 months. They are only recently not meta. So, whether knowingly or unknowingly, you have been the meta FOTM and now you've been nerfed. Welcome to an MMO.
6. I'm not "throwing a tantrum," I am providing feedback to ZOS, of whom I am a paying customer.
An openly adversarial, entitled demand for an explanation is 'feedback' now.
I've got a bridge to sell you.
7. In roughly half of the BGs I play in, I am the only NB. In the other half, there is one, maybe two others. The only other class that is even as close to being as underrepresented is Necro, and they are behind a paywall. (And to be honest, in the higher MMR you see quite a few of those as well.) Contrast that to the other classes: I frequently see as many as 6 to 8 Templars/DKs/Sorcs/Wardens at a time in higher tier BGs. If NBs aren't underpowered, what accounts for that discrepancy in your mind? What caused such a change? Again, are you ignorant or just dishonest? If it's the former that's OK, but you shouldn't be throwing your 2 cents in on things you don't understand. If it's the latter, well that's not OK.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
You people wonder why ZOS closes down these threads when the best you can do is name call.
"I was just trying to provide feedback and ZOS totally deleted my thread! I'm being censored! How dishonest!"
1. If you are willing to admit that NBs are "nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes," why TF are we even having this conversation??? That is literally the point of my entire post. So you want it split hairs over whether it is "underpowered" or "woefully underpowered"? Good grief.
Yes, because 'nerfed' and 'woefully underpowered' are not anywhere near the same thing. You can nerf something and it still be meta, if that hasn't occurred to you. Just because something has been nerfed, does not classify it as non-viable, woefully underpowered, broken, ruined or any of the other hyperbolic adjectives you've employed.
2. I haven't "evaded" anything.
Oh, OK. Now I'm convinced.
3. Saying "play another class" is essentially saying the other classes are stronger. If you're unable to see how that reinforces my contention, then I don't know what to tell you.
Actually, it could mean any number of things. Here are a few examples:
"Play another class because you haven't spent enough time playing NB to be good at NB."
"Play another class because you weren't that great at it in the first place."
"Play another class because they are easier to master than NB.
In any case, bickering back and forth will get us nowhere, so how about this: if you're on PC NA, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hop on your NB (preferably magblade, so as to reduce the number of variables) and join me for an evening of BGs. I'm fairly confident in two things: 1) I will do better than you by a not-insignificant margin, and 2) despite that, my scores will still be extremely lackluster relative to the other classes. (That is, if you even have a NB or play PVP — and based on this conversation, I suspect neither of those are true.)
"In any case, how about this: Totally come at me, bro. Seriously, do.you.even.lift?"
That's some real big PP talk there, my guy.
I almost started responding to this when I decided to follow a hunch, and BOY am I glad I did — I just saved us both a whole lot of time and consternation. (You're welcome.)
So as I suspected, you have exactly ZERO knowledge regarding the premise of this entire thread. Why didn't you just admit that from the beginning? The conversation would have literally just been:
Me: "This is how I feel about this."
You: "I don't know anything about that."
Me: "OK."
Instead, you decide to get into this huge protracted debate about something you have openly admitted that you have little to no experience with.
How about this: you don't tell me how balanced/unbalanced PVP is, and I won't lecture you on how easy/difficult it is to fight monsters that stand in one spot the whole time. Sound fair?
This last one was my favorite. Here you are, condescendingly pointing out that another person ignored the fact that a given comment was "from a PVE perspective." Hmmm...now why does that seem familiar to me?
(Oh, and before you say "BuT yOU dIdN't sAy pVP fROM tHE BEgInNinG:" I made that clarification 9 hours before you decided to jump into this thread and grace us with your steaming hot take.)
Ciao.12 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭I still meet v strong NB’s in no-cp, I’m fairly certain they just happen to be the class most effected by the inherent extra tankiness and extra health from having more cp. CP PvP sucks ass anyway imo. Play no-cp if your on a nb, you will have more fun.Edited by NeillMcAttack on February 9, 2020 2:30AMPC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I find it funny when players over exaggerate and say things like
"Devs don't care"
or
"They want a class to be weak"
as if the devs goal is to ruin a game
offer constructive criticism and move on. Getting hyperbolic isn't doing any of us any favors0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
"1. I don't want to play a different class — I want ZOS to undo the damage they have caused to this class."
ZOS hasn't damaged the class. It's this hyperbole that causes people not to take you seriously. A class being nerfed is relatively common in EVERY MMO - anyone that has been playing an MMO for longer than 5 minutes has figured this out. If you get this upset after a mundane round of nerfs that just happens to affect your class, I'm surprised you haven't developed an ulcer. THE solution is to play another class until it gets buffed again. You can throw a tantrum and stomp your feet like you're doing now, -OR- you can learn to play another class. If you had any interest in solutions you would have stated that at the outset instead of asserting that the class is 'woefully underpowered' and demanding that ZOS acknowledge some perceived wrong done to you.
Zenimax wouldn't know about the issues with classes, gear or skills without player feedback. That's what the PTS and the forums are for. There's nothing wrong with nerfing over-performing skills and ultimates, and at one point incap was incredibly overtuned. It's not anymore. Fear at one point was amazing, now it's not. Other classes that used to lack burst now have it, and nightblade lost theirs, especially relative to other classes.
Zenimax heard the feedback(the criers having ulcers, as you put it) about nightblades ~ a year ago and they nerfed them. Now people are providing feedback that it's too much and buffs in the other direction are needed.
Hi Frank, you strike me as a reasonable guy. Is the below something that you would consider reasonable or unreasonable feedback?
Can someone from ZOS please explain to me why you've decided to completely ruin Nightblades?
It seems to me that you may not have been following the entire thread, but feedback is not the same as a throwing a tantrum. There are plenty of other folks besides the OP in this thread who have provided plenty of valid constructive criticism. As you can see in the post that you quoted, I acknowledge that the class was nerfed. I also stated, and I stand by the statement, that the class will receive a buff in the future - just like every other class. If you do decide to read the thread, you'll see that I haven't really challenged any person but the OP on their feedback. You can pretend that the OMG MY NB LIFE IS OVER threads are feedback if you like, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that's not the first place ZOS is going to visit for buff ideas.
Well besides werewolves I can’t see why they’d buff anything else at this point. Or do you mean where they’d come up with ideas for buffing the class?
Almost all ‘buff my class’ threads are a joke and L2P issues, NB’s different. You have to realize a lot of the people saying NB needs a buff don’t even play one anymore, soon there will be no feedback threads because no one will be playing one, like werewolves.
Almost all ‘buff my class’ threads are a joke and L2P issues, NB’s different. You have to realize a lot of the people saying NB needs a buff don’t even play one anymore, soon there will be no feedback threads because no one will be playing one, like werewolves
A "lot of the people" obviously don't count as the OP, because this one is literally complaining about playing NB.
Werewolves are not a class.
This is still one of the most popular classes in the game, dude. Are you really suggesting that no one is going to be playing it soon? Get real.
They’re popular amongst solo players and can still do decently in ball groups, do decently but they aren’t optimal.
Most NB apps are already declined in most pvp guilds. Solo people still play NB because they like cloak, but your average solo player is just free AP and too casual to switch.
I think this is an issue that will sort itself out a lot when people can’t premade, they’ll get sick of getting NBs on their team and losing.
Rogues will always be one of the most popular class, because they’re rogues. It has nothing to do with how strong the class is.Edited by Iskiab on February 9, 2020 3:14AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten4 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭I find it funny when players over exaggerate and say things like
"Devs don't care"
or
"They want a class to be weak"
as if the devs goal is to ruin a game
offer constructive criticism and move on. Getting hyperbolic isn't doing any of us any favors
I wasn't attributing motive, I was simply listing the possible reasons I could think of for why they've kept the class as weak as it is for as long as they have. Then I chose what I thought was the most logical of the 3. What possibilities have I overlooked?1 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭First someone attempts to point out a critical issue in the game.
Then some person or persons do one of two things:
-Submit their negative agenda in hopes that the subject matter will be drowned out
or
-Simply have no damn clue about the subject matter but still continue to tap that keyboard
Nightblade needs improvements for PvP, more so than any other class.
If you don't agree with that it's fine, but you are wrong.6 -
ku5h✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs
2:00 min - current problem some people have on forums, explained pretty well by El Lobo, during chat with Isth3reno1else.
Also 2 other videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8q-W0BsD6s
(all credit to Isth3reno1else)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vGf9ce9Hus
(all credit to Kristofer ESO)
I hardly doubt that 3 independent content creators that know the game well and they PvP a lot, somehow conspired to make NB (both mag & stam) look bad on on purpose, compared to other classes...
Sorry, but this is simply how things are. ZOS was too heavy handed on NB nerfs last year (WW nerfs too btw.), don't deny it, even non NB mains see that lol.
While one of the best stamBlades in the game, who's been playing the class exclusively throughout many balance patches says stamBlade is in very good spot. Maybe it doesn't shine in group play, but in solo PvP it's top dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX1gjyrgYuU&t=2069s
If you know this class to it's core like this guy, it's extremely potent, but most ppl don't so they think it underperform overall.
0 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs
2:00 min - current problem some people have on forums, explained pretty well by El Lobo, during chat with Isth3reno1else.
Also 2 other videos:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8q-W0BsD6s
(all credit to Isth3reno1else)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vGf9ce9Hus
(all credit to Kristofer ESO)
I hardly doubt that 3 independent content creators that know the game well and they PvP a lot, somehow conspired to make NB (both mag & stam) look bad on on purpose, compared to other classes...
Sorry, but this is simply how things are. ZOS was too heavy handed on NB nerfs last year (WW nerfs too btw.), don't deny it, even non NB mains see that lol.
While one of the best stamBlades in the game, who's been playing the class exclusively throughout many balance patches says stamBlade is in very good spot. Maybe it doesn't shine in group play, but in solo PvP it's top dog.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX1gjyrgYuU&t=2069s
If you know this class to it's core like this guy, it's extremely potent, but most ppl don't so they think it underperform overall.
If you have to be "one of the best stamBlades in the game, who's been playing the class exclusively throughout many balance patches" and "know this class to it's core" in order to be successful playing it, it sounds to me like that is the very definition of "underperforming."
Let's see how that argument holds up if we apply it to gear quality:
"One of the best players in the game, someone who knows it's inner workings like the back of his hand, says blue gear is in a very good spot. This guy thrashes people that are using golded out gear all the time — blue gear in the right hands is extremely potent, you just need to know how to play with it."
I don't know about you, but that's not a particularly convincing argument to me. Personally, I think I'd still probably gold out my gear.
(h/t to @Iskiab for the analogy)7 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭This is going to be long.
1. I didn't "backpedal," I clarified the point I was trying to make. There is a [sizable] difference. I agree that I should have specified that my post was geared mostly towards PVP, and I remedied that when I realized my error in not doing so.
Sure did, but it's because your original premise was obviously wrong.
2. "Anecdotes" are not evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
It's not a logical fallacy if the word 'evidence' wasn't used. I'm the one who suggested that it was anecdotal. The hilarious part is, all it took were several anecdotes about PvE and Cyrodil to get you to go back and make a revision to your original post because it was so obviously incorrect.
3. No, NBs are weak in PVP in general, and this is widely recognized. Even solo, where NB supposedly shine, most other classes do at least as well, if not better. This is only controversial to people who don't know what they are talking about or are being intellectually dishonest — which one are you?
Oh, look, a gotcha! They are weak in PvP relative to other classes, which I have already acknowledged. They are not broken or ruined, which is what you have alleged. You're only conflating the two because it makes you sound less unreasonable.
5. I have played other classes and they didn't hold my interest. If they did, we wouldn't be having this tedious conversation.
This is the tedious thread you started.
6. I didn't say ZOS ruined my life, I said they ruined the class. Please learn to read.
This is hilarious. The king of NB hyperbole is going to act like he didn't immediately recognize another hyperbolic statement. Ok. *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* I believe you.
1. What do you call nerfing a class to the point that they are non-viable for certain aspects of the game, if not "damaging" it?
Doesn't understand the difference between optimal and viable. Pretending that the class isn't even viable is ridiculous. It's simply not optimal, which has been the case for every nerfed class ever. If they weren't viable, you wouldn't be getting any kills.
2. No kidding. I don't have issues with ZOS balancing the game, but the level of nerfs to NBs paired with the buffs that other classes received has made the class decidedly unbalanced — and not in a good way.
The class WAS unbalanced in a good way (for NB players). Then it was made NOT unbalanced and that's why you're here having this tedious conversation.
3. I've been playing the class for eleven months now and it has gotten progressively worse with every update — again: while most other classes were getting buffed. That is not "a mundane round of nerfs."
This tells me everything that I already knew. You haven't even been playing this class for an entire chapter. How would you have any concept of what a round of nerfs looks like relative to every other round of nerfs? You wouldn't.
4. No. "THE solution" is for ZOS to bring the class into line with the others. Why do I even need to explain this?
I know this is a hard concept to understand, but if we can agree that the class will eventually be buffed again, as all classes are, THEN THE CLASS WILL BE BROUGHT INTO LINE WITH THE OTHERS EVENTUALLY. FOR NOW, THE SOLUTION WILL BE TO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS. I don't know why this isn't self-evident.
5. Not everyone wants to chase the meta. If you only play the FOTM classes, more power to ya — that's not how I roll. I found a class I enjoy, and I'd like it if it were competitive with the other classes. There are [clearly] many other people out there that feel the same way I do. Why TF do you even care?
I guess you can be forgiven for not understanding that NB have been the meta for years because, as you said, you've only been playing NB for 11 months. They are only recently not meta. So, whether knowingly or unknowingly, you have been the meta FOTM and now you've been nerfed. Welcome to an MMO.
6. I'm not "throwing a tantrum," I am providing feedback to ZOS, of whom I am a paying customer.
An openly adversarial, entitled demand for an explanation is 'feedback' now.
I've got a bridge to sell you.
7. In roughly half of the BGs I play in, I am the only NB. In the other half, there is one, maybe two others. The only other class that is even as close to being as underrepresented is Necro, and they are behind a paywall. (And to be honest, in the higher MMR you see quite a few of those as well.) Contrast that to the other classes: I frequently see as many as 6 to 8 Templars/DKs/Sorcs/Wardens at a time in higher tier BGs. If NBs aren't underpowered, what accounts for that discrepancy in your mind? What caused such a change? Again, are you ignorant or just dishonest? If it's the former that's OK, but you shouldn't be throwing your 2 cents in on things you don't understand. If it's the latter, well that's not OK.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. Please leave your logical fallacies at the door.
You people wonder why ZOS closes down these threads when the best you can do is name call.
"I was just trying to provide feedback and ZOS totally deleted my thread! I'm being censored! How dishonest!"
1. If you are willing to admit that NBs are "nerfed and is weaker relative to other classes," why TF are we even having this conversation??? That is literally the point of my entire post. So you want it split hairs over whether it is "underpowered" or "woefully underpowered"? Good grief.
Yes, because 'nerfed' and 'woefully underpowered' are not anywhere near the same thing. You can nerf something and it still be meta, if that hasn't occurred to you. Just because something has been nerfed, does not classify it as non-viable, woefully underpowered, broken, ruined or any of the other hyperbolic adjectives you've employed.
2. I haven't "evaded" anything.
Oh, OK. Now I'm convinced.
3. Saying "play another class" is essentially saying the other classes are stronger. If you're unable to see how that reinforces my contention, then I don't know what to tell you.
Actually, it could mean any number of things. Here are a few examples:
"Play another class because you haven't spent enough time playing NB to be good at NB."
"Play another class because you weren't that great at it in the first place."
"Play another class because they are easier to master than NB.
In any case, bickering back and forth will get us nowhere, so how about this: if you're on PC NA, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hop on your NB (preferably magblade, so as to reduce the number of variables) and join me for an evening of BGs. I'm fairly confident in two things: 1) I will do better than you by a not-insignificant margin, and 2) despite that, my scores will still be extremely lackluster relative to the other classes. (That is, if you even have a NB or play PVP — and based on this conversation, I suspect neither of those are true.)
"In any case, how about this: Totally come at me, bro. Seriously, do.you.even.lift?"
That's some real big PP talk there, my guy.
I almost started responding to this when I decided to follow a hunch, and BOY am I glad I did — I just saved us both a whole lot of time and consternation. (You're welcome.)
So as I suspected, you have exactly ZERO knowledge regarding the premise of this entire thread. Why didn't you just admit that from the beginning? The conversation would have literally just been:
Me: "This is how I feel about this."
You: "I don't know anything about that."
Me: "OK."
Instead, you decide to get into this huge protracted debate about something you have openly admitted that you have little to no experience with.
How about this: you don't tell me how balanced/unbalanced PVP is, and I won't lecture you on how easy/difficult it is to fight monsters that stand in one spot the whole time. Sound fair?
This last one was my favorite. Here you are, condescendingly pointing out that another person ignored the fact that a given comment was "from a PVE perspective." Hmmm...now why does that seem familiar to me?
(Oh, and before you say "BuT yOU dIdN't sAy pVP fROM tHE BEgInNinG:" I made that clarification 9 hours before you decided to jump into this thread and grace us with your steaming hot take.)
Ciao.
So as I suspected, you have exactly ZERO knowledge regarding the premise of this entire thread. Why didn't you just admit that from the beginning?
You got that from a 'Hey, I'm enjoying the PvP event thread? Lol. This is coming from the person who has been playing a class for less than a year. Is this supposed to be some justification for evading (there's that word again) every criticism in my last post? Apparently, you're one of the big brains who believes you have to play football to have an opinion about football. I'm sure that will serve you well.
"Instead, you decide to get into this huge protracted debate about something you have openly admitted that you have little to no experience with."
Apparently, I 'play almost exclusively PvE' also means 'I've never PvPed before' where you come from. I've been playing NB for more than 11 months. Try again.
"How about this: you don't tell me how balanced/unbalanced PVP is, and I won't lecture you on how easy/difficult it is to fight monsters that stand in one spot the whole time. Sound fair?"
I'm telling you how balanced/unbalanced a class is. Don't worry, I don't think anyone is particularly afraid of you adding your bottomless insight to anything more nuanced than what you're busy having a tantrum about. You've demonstrated exactly how well informed you are by backtracking or evading every time someone else brings up a cogent point.
"This last one was my favorite. Here you are, condescendingly pointing out that another person ignored the fact that a given comment was "from a PVE perspective." Hmmm...now why does that seem familiar to me?"
You're going to accuse me of condescending? That's rich.
6. I didn't say ZOS ruined my life, I said they ruined the class. Please learn to read.
This is only controversial to people who don't know what they are talking about or are being intellectually dishonest — which one are you?
Seriously, the least self-aware person on the forums.
I don't understand what point you think you're making by screenshotting instances of me speaking about PvE. This must be another one if your sick gotcha's that keep falling flat.
(Oh, and before you say "BuT yOU dIdN't sAy pVP fROM tHE BEgInNinG:" I made that clarification 9 hours before you decided to jump into this thread and grace us with your steaming hot take.)
This is the funniest and most ironic thing I've read all day. Dude, the premise of your thread is literally a steaming hot take:
Can someone from ZOS please explain to me why you've decided to completely ruin Nightblades?
So, your projection aside, what was the point of this post? Just be honest: You didn't bother responding because you don't have any points left. You've made a hyperbolic argument, waved your arms around and you've got no other defense for it other than to attempt to dismiss my points with a bunch of irrelevant screenshots. You've done nothing but demonstrate that you're so salty you spent all night looking up my old posts on the forums. You're not arguing in good faith. You've simply come to the forums demanding that ZOS come change your diaper and powder your bottom. You know that ZOS isn't going to come to this thread for constructive criticism. You've created an entire thread because you needed someone to give you some attention. Now, you're so obsessed with me that you're looking up my posts in other threads. Beautiful.
Edited by Kahnak on February 9, 2020 2:41PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs
2:00 min - current problem some people have on forums, explained pretty well by El Lobo, during chat with Isth3reno1else.
Also 2 other videos:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8q-W0BsD6s
(all credit to Isth3reno1else)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vGf9ce9Hus
(all credit to Kristofer ESO)
I hardly doubt that 3 independent content creators that know the game well and they PvP a lot, somehow conspired to make NB (both mag & stam) look bad on on purpose, compared to other classes...
Sorry, but this is simply how things are. ZOS was too heavy handed on NB nerfs last year (WW nerfs too btw.), don't deny it, even non NB mains see that lol.
While one of the best stamBlades in the game, who's been playing the class exclusively throughout many balance patches says stamBlade is in very good spot. Maybe it doesn't shine in group play, but in solo PvP it's top dog.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX1gjyrgYuU&t=2069s
If you know this class to it's core like this guy, it's extremely potent, but most ppl don't so they think it underperform overall.
If you have to be "one of the best stamBlades in the game, who's been playing the class exclusively throughout many balance patches" and "know this class to it's core" in order to be successful playing it, it sounds to me like that is the very definition of "underperforming."
Let's see how that argument holds up if we apply it to gear quality:
"One of the best players in the game, someone who knows it's inner workings like the back of his hand, says blue gear is in a very good spot. This guy thrashes people that are using golded out gear all the time — blue gear in the right hands is extremely potent, you just need to know how to play with it."
I don't know about you, but that's not a particularly convincing argument to me. Personally, I think I'd still probably gold out my gear.
(h/t to @Iskiab for the analogy)
"If you have to be "one of the best stamBlades in the game, who's been playing the class exclusively throughout many balance patches" and "know this class to it's core" in order to be successful playing it, it sounds to me like that is the very definition of "underperforming."
No, that's the definition of an advanced class. Meaning: You have to be competent to be good. Someone who can't even count the amount of balance patches they have seen on one hand wouldn't know anything about that.
Let's see how that argument holds up if we apply it to gear quality:
"One of the best players in the game, someone who knows it's inner workings like the back of his hand, says blue gear is in a very good spot. This guy thrashes people that are using golded out gear all the time — blue gear in the right hands is extremely potent, you just need to know how to play with it."
Except, one of the best players in the game wouldn't advocate for blue gear for obvious reasons and they DID advocate for NB. How is this relevant if you can simply upgrade to Gold gear without whinging to ZOS about how badly they nerfed your feelings? Great job winning your own pointless argument, though.
I don't know about you, but that's not a particularly convincing argument to me. Personally, I think I'd still probably gold out my gear.
Oh, you're unrelated argument wasn't convincing? I'm shocked! Maybe because it wasn't a particularly compelling hypothetical to begin with.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »When will this duel be over? lmao
I prefer the term 'Slapfight'. I'm offended.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭They ruined stamblade PvE...
¿Healer is stupid and doesnt know what combat prayer is? You had grim focus.
¿Tank is stupid and is using inner fire/ice staff to taun and not aplying major fracture? You had surprise attack.
¿Healer has no clue of what an orb/shard is? No problem, your damage used to depend only on your skill level.
However, now that the meta is stamina necromancer its either i pull 3 times the damage i used to do on my nightblade, or 1/3 of it, depending on how many neurons my healer and tank have.
I have been vote kicking a lot of players from veteran DLC, and because the vote passes most of the time, i assume other people think the same.3 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Stamblades wreck me all the time in noCP Cyro. I mean, I suck, but I can still see against which classes I struggle the most, and I have developed an almost irrational hatred for their cloaking shenanigans.NeillMcAttack wrote: »I still meet v strong NB’s in no-cp, I’m fairly certain they just happen to be the class most effected by the inherent extra tankiness and extra health from having more cp. CP PvP sucks ass anyway imo. Play no-cp if your on a nb, you will have more fun.
Magblades on the other hand I haven't seen in forever. No, that's not a cloak joke.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZtItFe4wVA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQw2HxkP9XA&t=407s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7aD1jF3ctk