Making Frost Staves Relevant

Vercingetorix · February 2020

The way frost staves fail to help Tank players effectively because the mechanic is tacked on halfheartedly. Magicka tanking really needs to have its own dedicated skill line just like stamina tanking does. Alteration is a defensive school of magic and staves from this school can serve as the "tanking staff" - it's honestly surprising that this wasn't an option at release. This change would allow frost staves to exist as a DPS option for magicka players. Below is a list of simple changes to frost staves to make them a valid DPS option while still honoring the ice theme:

Tri-Focus: Fully-charged Frost Staff Heavy Attacks decrease an enemy's Spell Resistance by 1320 for 10 seconds.
Ancient Knowledge: Equipping a Frost Staff increases your spell critical by 5%. This bonus is doubled when attacking Chilled enemies.

The idea behind these changes is that frost damage should make enemies more susceptible to damage, similar to how extended exposure to the cold lowers a person's ability to stay healthy by wearing them down. Leaving Minor Maim on the Chilled status is honestly fine as it also plays on the theme of weakening enemies. The critical buff on the staff can be a higher value than the passive buffs you'd receive on flame and lightning staves, but the passive only rewards this higher buff should the player focus on maintaining Chilled uptime. Lastly, making heavy attacks lower the resistance by a specified number instead of using something like Minor Breach allows the two debuffs to coexist without hurting either player's DPS.

Vevvev · February 2020

Interesting ideas there for the ice staff. I'd love for something like this to happen but ZOS felt like making ice a magicka version of tanking instead of adding a new weapon like an alteration staff. The alteration staff wouldn't even require new assets to be made just new animations (maybe) and skills.

starkerealm · February 2020

I'd argue that frost staves are already relevant, they're just very niche. Wall of Ice's CC effect is already a useful tanking tool. However, I do think the taunt needs to come off the heavy and go onto one of the active abilities.

snoozy · February 2020

i support this suggestion.

i'd like to do a bit more dps on my rp full frost magden...

Ksariyu · February 2020

I really like that change for Tri-Focus. Feels appropriate for frost magic and gives groups a reason to not just stack Inferno staffs like they do now. Not as sold on the Ancient Knowledge one, mainly because Spell Crit is just a big overall buff compared to the Single- and AoE-only effects from the other types. Maybe something like, "Increases the duration of Debuffs you apply to enemies by 25%" might be nice.
But yes, something really does need to be done about Magicka tanking. A pitiful 1k shield that's broken by pretty much every attack in the game is incredibly unhelpful compared to the debuffs of Pierce Armor or the extra damage of Inner Rage, and that's on top of the insanely clunky mechanic of trying to medium attack to apply the taunt before your teammates get one-shot or you get interrupted.
If they're absolutely going to insist on Frost magic being the only way to Mage-tank, they at least need to put in the effort to make it a viable alternative. Even something simple like making the frost version of Destructive Clench a taunt instead of an Immobilize (A single-target immobilize is useless in PvE, though maybe PvP players would have a problem with this) would be miles ahead of where we are now.

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

So you want to turn if from tank's weapon into magden personal weapon, useless to any other class or spec?

starkerealm · February 2020

Ksariyu wrote: »

A pitiful 1k shield that's broken by pretty much every attack in the game is incredibly unhelpful...

You know what would be interesting in its place? A 20-40k Damage Shield that ended after taking damage. Your heavy attack takes awhile to charge, but the trade off would be the ability to soak the next incoming hit after it completed.

Runefang · February 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So you want to turn if from tank's weapon into magden personal weapon, useless to any other class or spec?

Why would no other class be able to use it?

MartiniDaniels · February 2020

Runefang wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So you want to turn if from tank's weapon into magden personal weapon, useless to any other class or spec?

Why would no other class be able to use it?

Because ice damage will still be suboptimal even with 5% crit. And with 10% and new warden passive it will be OP. Maybe ice staff need some change to be more universal, but what OP suggests is simply remaking it for magden. Tanks are of course minority in this game, but I don't see why all those hard grinded alkosh, pYolnakrin, power assault etc ice staves should go to trash bin, just because ZOS can't provide decent item sets for frost mages.

Mister_DMC · February 2020

Good suggestions I like it

codierussell · February 2020

Ksariyu wrote: »

I really like that change for Tri-Focus. Feels appropriate for frost magic and gives groups a reason to not just stack Inferno staffs like they do now. Not as sold on the Ancient Knowledge one, mainly because Spell Crit is just a big overall buff compared to the Single- and AoE-only effects from the other types. Maybe something like, "Increases the duration of Debuffs you apply to enemies by 25%" might be nice.
But yes, something really does need to be done about Magicka tanking. A pitiful 1k shield that's broken by pretty much every attack in the game is incredibly unhelpful compared to the debuffs of Pierce Armor or the extra damage of Inner Rage, and that's on top of the insanely clunky mechanic of trying to medium attack to apply the taunt before your teammates get one-shot or you get interrupted.
If they're absolutely going to insist on Frost magic being the only way to Mage-tank, they at least need to put in the effort to make it a viable alternative. Even something simple like making the frost version of Destructive Clench a taunt instead of an Immobilize (A single-target immobilize is useless in PvE, though maybe PvP players would have a problem with this) would be miles ahead of where we are now.

Be careful with debuff ideas like that, next thing you know necros are going to be absolutely stupid with higher debuff uptimes since they have access to minor and major vulnerability along with major fracture/breech. This would make them a debuff nightmare.

InaMoonlight · February 2020

Jut two things I want, for the taunt and stamthing to go away (I wouldn't wear a staff on a stamchar, it looks wrong) 2 I'd like it to be a potent snare- and dot tool.

bmnoble · February 2020

If they add major breach and fracture to the frost staffs's heavy attack along with the existing taunt then I would be more likely to use frost staff's.

As it is now I stick to my sword and board and occasionally yell at any DPS I get when tanking that are using a frost staff.

Even then Sword and board is just a faster option for applying the taunt, maybe add to a morph for weakness to elements that adds taunt to the skill when using a frost staff, since they are adding major breach and major fracture to a lot of the skills that only apply one I would assume that weakness to elements will get that treatment at some point too.

starkerealm · February 2020

bmnoble wrote: »

If they add major breach and fracture to the frost staffs's heavy attack along with the existing taunt then I would be more likely to use frost staff's.

As it is now I stick to my sword and board and occasionally yell at any DPS I get when tanking that are using a frost staff.

Even then Sword and board is just a faster option for applying the taunt, maybe add to a morph for weakness to elements that adds taunt to the skill when using a frost staff, since they are adding major breach and major fracture to a lot of the skills that only apply one I would assume that weakness to elements will get that treatment at some point too.

The crazy thing to me is that Pierce has a really clean, easy to learn, weave.

I've seen a few frost DPS who weren't a liability, but right now, if you're slotting it for something other than PvP or Tanking, something's gone very wrong.

luen79rwb17_ESO · February 2020

I really really have high hopes that ZOS rework frost staves to make them viable DPS. I wouldn't mind if its only for Wardens but please I wanna get over this frustration with frost staves and Greymoor seems like a good opportunity to do so

logarifmik · February 2020

Frost stave definitely needs a rework. Though, I like my current Frost Tank Warden build with Iceheart, Ice Furnace and Ysgramor's Birthright, I'd like to see a different options for Magicka tanking. Could be that Frost stave will be usable for both DDs with reworked Destruction Staves skill line and Tanks with new Magicka tanking skill line, why not?

Starlight_Knight · February 2020

Personally i hate using a darn flame staff on my ice warden i don't it makes no sense to put winters revenge on top of a blockade of fire. Please let us have our ICE MAGE we've always wanted.

Thokri · February 2020

Agreed, I was very disappointed to see that necromancers only had one frost-based spell... And most were fire and best monster sets are fire based.

I just always imagined necromancers using more cold-based spells.

Lemonsinspace · February 2020

Instead of a crit buff, a DOT dmg or faster dmg tick buff would be nice.

Imryll · February 2020

I agree and don't think it should be impossible to design morphs that allow ice staves to serve as either a dps or a tanking weapon depending on which morphs are chosen.

Bradyfjord · February 2020

I agree with the spirit of the OP, but not the specifics. We need an elegant solution. The reason I don't like frost tanking is because of how long it takes to charge up a taunt. Perhaps ice staff taunt is meant as a backup option, and we're supposed to use inner fire as our primary taunt?

This thread is talking about one of the reasons a spell crafting (morph crafting) system would be wonderful for this game. Though spell crafting would open a 'pandora's box' of balancing issues.

thissocalledflower · February 2020

bmnoble wrote: »

If they add major breach and fracture to the frost staffs's heavy attack along with the existing taunt then I would be more likely to use frost staff's.

As it is now I stick to my sword and board and occasionally yell at any DPS I get when tanking that are using a frost staff.

Even then Sword and board is just a faster option for applying the taunt, maybe add to a morph for weakness to elements that adds taunt to the skill when using a frost staff, since they are adding major breach and major fracture to a lot of the skills that only apply one I would assume that weakness to elements will get that treatment at some point too.

I like using a frost staff on my healer dps magplar esp in pugs and I love to taunt with it when we geta fake tank esp that doesn't stand still. I get annoyed with a tank that runs around the room with the boss monster chasing them. So all the changes proposed in this thread just need to stop. I like it just as it is.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Tri-Focus: Fully-charged Frost Staff Heavy Attacks decrease an enemy's Spell Resistance by 1320 for 10 seconds.
Ancient Knowledge: Equipping a Frost Staff increases your spell critical by 5%. This bonus is doubled when attacking Chilled enemies.

i'd personally just make the spell crit bonus a flat 6%-8%. no other effects as what you suggested is a very powerful bonus effect for specifically magden. Flame and Shock only get one effect. so it makes sense to me that it should just be a flat effect too. I also think the heavy attack change is welcome, but a bit powerful, i'd tone it back to like 500 or something kinda small but still microscopically useful, or even just something else like a slightly faster charge time or more resources back or something.

We want to make the frost staff relevant for a few mag classes, but not all of them.

thissocalledflower · February 2020

thissocalledflower wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

If they add major breach and fracture to the frost staffs's heavy attack along with the existing taunt then I would be more likely to use frost staff's.

As it is now I stick to my sword and board and occasionally yell at any DPS I get when tanking that are using a frost staff.

Even then Sword and board is just a faster option for applying the taunt, maybe add to a morph for weakness to elements that adds taunt to the skill when using a frost staff, since they are adding major breach and major fracture to a lot of the skills that only apply one I would assume that weakness to elements will get that treatment at some point too.

I like using a frost staff on my healer dps magplar esp in pugs and I love to taunt with it when we geta fake tank esp that doesn't stand still. I get annoyed with a tank that runs around the room with the boss monster chasing them. So all the changes proposed in this thread just need to stop. I like it just as it is.

starkerealm · February 2020

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Personally i hate using a darn flame staff on my ice warden i don't it makes no sense to put winters revenge on top of a blockade of fire. Please let us have our ICE MAGE we've always wanted.

Sounds like you should be using a lightning staff. Lightning has an AOE damage buff, flame has a single target damage buff. Unless the bulk of your damage is from single target abilities, you'll get more millage from a zap stick.

To be fair, lightning in an ice storm is also a little weird, but probably slightly less jarring than flames in one.

idk · February 2020

OP had me when they were advocating for a skill line specific to magicka tanking then lost me when it became clear they were just trying to change some passives in the existing dStaff and could really care less about magicka tanking.

Regardless, to the changes OP actually suggested.

iirc, Zos scrapped a passive for the fire staff months before launch that is similar to the Tri-focus changes OP suggests. A heavy attack on a target would increase damage to that target for X seconds. Pretty much the same thing we see here, just with a twist.

As for Ancient Knowledge, the problem with adding 5% crit chance is it really does not make us choose as we have to with fire and shock. If the 5% crit outperforms then damn, who would not use it for everything. If it is shy of being better then it is tossed into the closet of irrelevance except for players that could really care less about their damage. Whereas our top builds over the years have included both fire and shock depending on both the build and changes Zos made to the game. So yes, the 5% crit seems pretty boring.

starkerealm · February 2020

idk wrote: »

OP had me when they were advocating for a skill line specific to magicka tanking then lost me when it became clear they were just trying to change some passives in...

Actually, that's a wild idea. Alternate weapon and armor skill lines that you toggled over to. Like a tank line for destro staffs or a DPS S&B.

starkerealm · February 2020

Or, I suppose, alteration staves for tanking.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

Or, I suppose, alteration staves for tanking.

That would be the best thing imo. An alteration staff built from the ground up to be for tanking and defence. It seems quite unlikely though. Maybe next year's major change will be for a new weapon or 2.

zvavi · February 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Or, I suppose, alteration staves for tanking.

That would be the best thing imo. An alteration staff built from the ground up to be for tanking and defence. It seems quite unlikely though. Maybe next year's major change will be for a new weapon or 2.

U guys. It means leveling alternation skill line on 5 characters for me, and farming new gear for it too. I mean, i know you want your frost damage stick, but don't forget there are two coin sides to it please.

ESO_Nightingale · February 2020

zvavi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Or, I suppose, alteration staves for tanking.

That would be the best thing imo. An alteration staff built from the ground up to be for tanking and defence. It seems quite unlikely though. Maybe next year's major change will be for a new weapon or 2.

U guys. It means leveling alternation skill line on 5 characters for me, and farming new gear for it too. I mean, i know you want your frost damage stick, but don't forget there are two coin sides to it please.

Tanks would ultimately benefit from it.