idk wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the developers agreed with us and removed it.
animation canceling constantly a wide range of skills in an instant is simply not realistic pvp fighting, it's foolishness and i promise was not intended.

@Gilvoth

First, it seems you are suggesting that AC was foolishness and that the devs agree with you since the three lines quoted above come together after a line break.

If so please provide a link to the article or video where any of the devs make a statement agreeing with that AC is foolishness. They have made it clear that while it was not intended that it is an official part of the game. That was explained years ago and I have yet to see Zos suggest it is foolish or any concerns about them leaving it in game.

If I misunderstood you then this is probably a good opportunity to make the post clear and correct.

.

idk wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

here is what the developers said

Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:[/b]

here is where the quote came from:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

the developers were right, it's too much damage happening too fast and we cant even see the actualy damage skill that was used, all we see is a flash and glitch that happens instantly and kills people character that we have no way to counter nore react to.
its not about light animation canceling, those are fine
and you cant use skill animation canceling as a counter.
there is no counter.
it's instant death especially if you are attacked from some one that was in stealth before that combo - instant death

the developers agreed with us and removed it.
animation canceling constantly a wide range of skills in an instant is simply not realistic pvp fighting, it's foolishness and i promise was not intended.

You are conflating 2 separate issues here. I wont debate whether or not cast times on ults is wise. The logic behind that is reasonably sound, powerful moves should be set up and have the option to be reacted to. Ultimates also fill the mmo class design space of high impact longer cooldown skills.

Not everything in the game is designed around the potency of an ultimate skill. And imposing reactionary cast times to every single ability in the game would have dire consequences that you are failing to see.

im not "failing" anything, nor am i talking about a different subject.
they said right in their wording that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.
they never intended animation canceling to Dominate.

On the page linked the only comment concerning animation canceling is ultimate's and nothing more. Not AC in general. Your post they quoted did appear to finish by tying in all AC into their comment about ultimates. That is what they seem to be calling into question. I pointed this out in my previous comment to give you the opportunity to clear the comment up or provide substance to support it.

the "light attack" animation canceling is what You are referring to and i already stated multiple times that this is not about light attack animation canceling.
and they did say in their wording on that quote that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.

lets take another look at that quote,
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:[/b]

here is where the quote came from:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1


looking directly at the statement:

"You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore."

and also:

"we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much."

it is quite clear on both of those statements they were talking about animation canceling.

Gilvoth wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

here is what the developers said

Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:[/b]

here is where the quote came from:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

the developers were right, it's too much damage happening too fast and we cant even see the actualy damage skill that was used, all we see is a flash and glitch that happens instantly and kills people character that we have no way to counter nore react to.
its not about light animation canceling, those are fine
and you cant use skill animation canceling as a counter.
there is no counter.
it's instant death especially if you are attacked from some one that was in stealth before that combo - instant death

the developers agreed with us and removed it.
animation canceling constantly a wide range of skills in an instant is simply not realistic pvp fighting, it's foolishness and i promise was not intended.

You are conflating 2 separate issues here. I wont debate whether or not cast times on ults is wise. The logic behind that is reasonably sound, powerful moves should be set up and have the option to be reacted to. Ultimates also fill the mmo class design space of high impact longer cooldown skills.

Not everything in the game is designed around the potency of an ultimate skill. And imposing reactionary cast times to every single ability in the game would have dire consequences that you are failing to see.

im not "failing" anything, nor am i talking about a different subject.
they said right in their wording that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.
they never intended animation canceling to Dominate.

Yes you are, simply because they are referring to impactful ultimates having reactionary counterplay. Animation canceling in general has little impact on this since most abilites in eso are instant cast and thus resolve instantly. And anything that is hard cast or channeled does not yeild it's full benefits when cut off. You are lumping two separate points of discussion into one.

.

idk wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the developers agreed with us and removed it.
animation canceling constantly a wide range of skills in an instant is simply not realistic pvp fighting, it's foolishness and i promise was not intended.

@Gilvoth

First, it seems you are suggesting that AC was foolishness and that the devs agree with you since the three lines quoted above come together after a line break.

If so please provide a link to the article or video where any of the devs make a statement agreeing with that AC is foolishness. They have made it clear that while it was not intended that it is an official part of the game. That was explained years ago and I have yet to see Zos suggest it is foolish or any concerns about them leaving it in game.

If I misunderstood you then this is probably a good opportunity to make the post clear and correct.

the "light attack" animation canceling is what You are referring to and i already stated multiple times that this is not about light attack animation canceling.
and they did say in their wording on that quote that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.

I am referring to all animation canceling outside of ultimates. The comments in that quote are very specific to animation canceling of ultimates with nothing to indicate anything more than that.

In fact they did not say anything about animation canceling and to many skills fire off anywhere in that quote. It seems you are reading a whole lot into it that is not there. So again, I ask you to provide a link to where you get that information because it is not in what you have already provided or please edit your previous comment so it reflects correct information.

i have tried multiple times to answer your question.
this will be my last attempt.
if you do not agree with my answer then that is acceptable, but your agreeing with my answers nor my opinions on this forum is not a requirement.

here is the answer to your question that i have now stated 3 times.

the "light attack" animation canceling is what You are referring to and i already stated multiple times that this is not about light attack animation canceling.
and they did say in their wording on that quote that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.

lets take another look at that quote,
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:[/b]

here is where the quote came from:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1


looking directly at the statement:

"You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore."

and also:

"we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much."

it is quite clear on both of those statements they were talking about animation canceling.

Gilvoth wrote: »

.

idk wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the developers agreed with us and removed it.
animation canceling constantly a wide range of skills in an instant is simply not realistic pvp fighting, it's foolishness and i promise was not intended.

@Gilvoth

First, it seems you are suggesting that AC was foolishness and that the devs agree with you since the three lines quoted above come together after a line break.

If so please provide a link to the article or video where any of the devs make a statement agreeing with that AC is foolishness. They have made it clear that while it was not intended that it is an official part of the game. That was explained years ago and I have yet to see Zos suggest it is foolish or any concerns about them leaving it in game.

If I misunderstood you then this is probably a good opportunity to make the post clear and correct.

the "light attack" animation canceling is what You are referring to and i already stated multiple times that this is not about light attack animation canceling.
and they did say in their wording on that quote that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.

I am referring to all animation canceling outside of ultimates. The comments in that quote are very specific to animation canceling of ultimates with nothing to indicate anything more than that.

In fact they did not say anything about animation canceling and to many skills fire off anywhere in that quote. It seems you are reading a whole lot into it that is not there. So again, I ask you to provide a link to where you get that information because it is not in what you have already provided or please edit your previous comment so it reflects correct information.

i have tried multiple times to answer your question.
this will be my last attempt.
if you do not agree with my answer then that is acceptable, but your agreeing with my answers nor my opinions on this forum is not a requirement.

here is the answer to your question that i have now stated 3 times.

the "light attack" animation canceling is what You are referring to and i already stated multiple times that this is not about light attack animation canceling.
and they did say in their wording on that quote that they dont want animation canceling involved in that skill and that too many skills fire off.

lets take another look at that quote,
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:[/b]

here is where the quote came from:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1


looking directly at the statement:

"You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore."

and also:

"we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much."

it is quite clear on both of those statements they were talking about animation canceling.

Look there are two truths (not opinions) about the cast time to ultimates and why zos felt that change was necessary -

1st. As Gina reiterated from the dev team, they felt the ultimates in question deserved some counterplay.

2nd, which is more important, less obvious and the point that you are missing is this - the ultimates in question that recieved the cast times, had animations that extended beyond the 1 second, resulting in them playing out in a manner where the impact point of the animation did not line up with the abilities activation. Ie the damage of dawnbreaker was being calculated server side before the point where the dawnbreaker itself slams the ground. We are talking milliseconds here. The cast time changes addressed both issues by lining up the animation with the cast time with the point of the skills animation where impact is reached.

The rest of your answer is right there in Gina's text, you are just interpreting it wrong.

"We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much." in case there is any confusion, she is not reffering to a scenario where the player using the ultimate is also delivering 3 or 4 abilities at once. She is explaining that in a scenario where there are multiple players (often the case in pvp), being on the receiving end of standard unreactable instant cast skills by x amount of players, having an instant cast unreactble ultimate among them is a step to far in their eyes.

"Also you can't animation cancel them" she is merely pointing out that since they now have a cast time, you cant cut the cast off in the same way you cant for something like uppercut by simple rule of cast time properties to skills.

"because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful." she is simply going full circle and making it clear that zos decided the ults in question yielded enough of an impact that them being instant cast was overbearing for their power budget.

The removal of "animation canceling" will have no bearing on whether or not you are going to get merked by skills that you could not react to. There are a few edge cases where certain buffs can be masked (barely) by hitting block, dk and warden wings buff animation can sometimes be hidden depending on server lag for example, but using any action that is independent of the gcd (block, roll dodge, barswap) will do absolutely nothing for your ability to deliver damage faster, string more abilities together, or mask skills to the point that the defender cant react.

The last point of which is especially pertinent since you by design do not react to instant cast skills. The dk that hits you with flamelash is going to hit you with flamelash if he fulfills the criteria for connecting it ie being in range and having the resource to cast it. You are not going to see it mid animation and block it because once the dk hits the button and fires the skill, it's already being handled by the server, his GCD has started and any follow through animation is purely aesthetic. At that point, the server is going to check the recipients status, where you blocking?, where you in a roll dodge state at the time of its resolve? Etc etc.

This is why bringing up Gina's post about the reasoning for the ult cast times only demonstrated further what you didnt know about regarding this subject.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

i dont really understand why people want to keep this bug in the game - i do understand that people want to have an active, engaging and fun combat system in the game that rewards skill - but why not fix and replace animation cancelling into something that is not a bug but an intended feature and achieves the same purpose?

You know when a game gives you a goal that it takes too much time and effort to the point you say "no this feels like a job and I'm not enjoying the game" so you don't do it?

Well a lot of players don't have that switch and they go for it and spend hours and hours trying to achieve that task even if it's crazy. So when the devs finally accept it was crazy and want to remove it because the majority of players are complaining and not doing it, these gamers that spent so much effort will of course be mad, because it was all for nothing and now they will be at the same ground of those that didn't suffer all that.

That’s not quite true though. People actually learned and practiced ac were doing it, practicing combos and rotations. These people do things in combination much faster than the average casual who’s invested no time learning or practicing.

Adding more of the animation canceled by block; for example, won’t suddenly make a casual player the equal of a more serious player who has put in the time.

All the nerfs and cries for balance follow a little trend: An attempt to level the playing field between the casual player and the more skilled player. ESO is more than merely mashing buttons and getting a carry from your build, with a couple of exceptions. (THOSE exceptions ARE balance problems; though, there are fewer of these exceptions than anyone would care to admit).

In the end, the expert wins against the novice...

I'll actually take this a step further as it was the case with me and my group of friends who played this since day 1. I would posit that a good portion of players where already "animation canceling" without even knowing simply because they were engaging with the combat system in its entirety.

Adhere to the following.....Block when you need to block, roll when you need to roll, make sure to use every GCD when possible, squeeze in your light attacks between every skill, and make sure you are on the right bar by the time your GCD is up. This is ESOs combat at it's most fundamental. If you do this you will at many points "animation cancel" throughout your time playing this game. It is not a mystery to solve or some secret tech to master.

That is the biggest misconception. This is what wrobel was talking about. Animation canceling is simply a matter of existence once all of ESOs other combat components fall into place. Its unintended in that its simply a byproduct of the systems that govern combat being executed. It's not a bug or an exploit and does not enable any potency beyond the rules set in place by the developers.

@idk
Sorry, i glanced at your post (dint have time then) and i was surprised that you were writing about GCD, because it wouldnt be needed if game would work how i want.

So yeah, there is this lazy fix - GCD, which just prevent casting multiple abilities at once. It still doesn't fix problems like hiding abilities behind
AC and weaving [yea, weaving is bad because it s not intuitive, esp if you add GCD].

GCD also makes combat poor. If abilities had different cast times, then you would pick them depending on situation (after estmating how much time you may have to use it). This would require more skill than current system. Atm it is just weave and check GCD. People automate this by muscle memory and feel superior because newbs have no idea how system works.

And thats not even just PVP problem. Whole PVE depends on you watching and learning one tarded mechanic on youtube. So yeah, great combat design.

And I know that lotta people who use this system would hate any change. It would take their skill after all and DPS would go down.

I played game with cool and complex melee combat. Weapon weight, reach and type was very important. Hit boxes were quite complex so it was imporant how you swing our weapon. There was parrying present, different ways to swing weapon and other stuff. There was also one very cool mechanic, where you could speed up or slow down weapon swing by using your mouse. And that was mechanic that devs messed up. What was best tactic to melt newbs? Get long weapon, set mouse sensivity that let you do idiotic, unrealistic swings, which looked like your character was getting glitched.. and learn few moves. Ofc devs never fixed it because skilled players would whine. This divided community into two groups:: some skilled players who abused mechanic and newbs who tried to play normally, but were quiting because of this 'skill ceiling'. This reminds me of ESO a bit.

@Royaji
Combat wouldn't get that much slower tbh (you just couldn't weave damage/heals). Nothing else wouldn't be changed, but yes -difference would be noticable.

@Varana
GCD acts kinda like hidden (tho not interuptable) cast time, so i dunno why this would be such a big deal.

A dead giveaway of a new player who just started the game are hardcasted frags.

Hey! I hardcast frags! On my 'crystal artillery' support sorc... Now granted it´s more of a 'fun' build, but it is underrated...

idk wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

I don’t understand stand people’s aversion to light attack weaving. It’s easy enough to do.

As for block casting, I can get why some people might not like facing it as they may not recognize what skill’s being used against them, as in “wtf just happened.” The thing is, chances are you’d die just as easily to a guy who’s practiced and gotten AC down, even if you saw more of the animation he’s canceled.

Eating poop is easy enough too.
Yet people have aversion to it.

People with wrist issues or who cannot be bothered spamming clicks for hours to no end are negatively impacted.

After 15 minutes or so of LA weaving game I have to rest my arm for some minutes else I cannot endure the pain I get from my hands.

No other MMO I play or I ever played causes me physical pain.

No offense but there is no content in game that requires the use of AC of any kind including weaving basic attacks into skills. Even in PvP a skilled player can do without AC as much of PvP is avoiding damage.

As such I do not understand why you are LA weaving if it pains you so much. I would suggest you raid with a more casual group though as survival, even in PvE, requires quick and unplanned actions and is not needed as much in the less challenging content. Hope you find a group that works well for you.

Well, having to give up on 15k DPS is not exactly an easy choice for me.
With my "casual group" I have completed hard mode vMOL, vAS + 2, vCR + 2 and 2 hard mode vSS bosses (before my guild mates got tired of vSS )
Should I become a drag on them?

idk wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

The #1 unvoiced problem with weaving/AC is that it makes combat look like your character is having an epileptic fit. That's absolutely a problem when trying to recruit new players, especially those used to TES combat.

There's a reason Dark Souls defined the decade as far as RPG combat goes. Even ESO tried to replicate a lot of it in its basics, but gave in to players who became used to weaving/AC rotations.

Which is why ESO remains one of the top MMORPGs of today's time and has sold as many copies of the game as FF14 did when had been out this many years.

I'm somewhat doubtful this is because of the combat system and not in spite of it. Maybe it's anecdotal, but the clunky combat visuals are on of the most cited reasons among my friends who left the game, and it was a very common complaint in ESO's earlier years.

idk wrote: »

Also, while I do not notice my character twitching when in combat as I am focused on the combat itself, when I watch streams and videos I do not see twitching. Maybe it happens when unskilled players trying to get it right, idk.

Nah, the better you weave, the more ridiculous it looks, because more of the transition animations get canceled. One moment you are shooting your bow into the sky, then it's gone and you attack with two daggers, then you have a flame in your hands ... it's quite ridiculous if you are used to things like Skyrim's combat.

idk wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

The #1 unvoiced problem with weaving/AC is that it makes combat look like your character is having an epileptic fit. That's absolutely a problem when trying to recruit new players, especially those used to TES combat.

There's a reason Dark Souls defined the decade as far as RPG combat goes. Even ESO tried to replicate a lot of it in its basics, but gave in to players who became used to weaving/AC rotations.

Which is why ESO remains one of the top MMORPGs of today's time and has sold as many copies of the game as FF14 did when had been out this many years.

It does not seem ESO has had problems brining in new players. Also, while I do not notice my character twitching when in combat as I am focused on the combat itself, when I watch streams and videos I do not see twitching. Maybe it happens when unskilled players trying to get it right, idk.

eso has no problems bringing in new people . i just has issues keeping them