Potential magblade group utility changes are they too unreasonable? Soul tether and lotus fan

Hamboot · January 2020

soul tether ulti, increase the dmg based on how many players are hit by x %, I would also love to see lotus fan radius increased by a couple of meters so that it hit more targets, anyone agree?

Iskiab · January 2020

Hamboot wrote: »

soul tether ulti, increase the dmg based on how many players are hit by x %, I would also love to see lotus fan radius increased by a couple of meters so that it hit more targets, anyone agree?

Wouldn’t be bad, but I think it’d just push magblades to a more niche role - bombers. Instead of buffs to existing playstyles I’d rather they go back on some of the heavy handed nerfs.

The biggest downside to magblade is no burst self heal and undertuned abilities. It takes 2-3 abilities to accomplish what other abilities can accomplish in one.

Hamboot · January 2020

I think it would make them more viable in group pvp

Iskiab · January 2020

Yea, it would.

One place they could look is at twisting and refreshing path. Right now it’s rarely used in pvp, but group major expedition is a great ability. It’s just with pvp being high movement it needs to do more than having the major expedition linger for a while once people move out of it. Maybe cleanse 1 negative effect per cast per target or something, with twisting have the damage linger for 4 seconds after moving out like the expedition.

One thing I’ve noticed after playing other classes is NB has a lot of bad abilities. Most classes have so many good ones you can’t fit them all. NB’s more like most are trash, or too niche to be used, so guild/weapon skills get used instead once you have your passives.

There are maybe 3-4 skills that I’ve unlocked and tested, but never actually used in a build.

Metemsycosis · January 2020

I don't think they're trash (curious which you think are just bad) but they are tricky to synergize unless you trod old paths. Refreshing path is imo among the most overloaded skills but does require resto staff to make it truly shine. So I get wym there, isk. Same with crippling grasp, it's decent by itself, worth 8% max magicka increase plus a decent dot plus two ccs, but isn't it better combined with clench over hysteria? Ofc. Veil of blades ulti is perfect for flag grabs but doesn't fit a mobile play at all.

I think with magblade you need to say, what am I trying to accomplish, what is my actual intended playstyle here, and how can I accomplish it? Why magblade over another class, what is this class giving?

Starting with defense. Stand your ground with shields/resistance/block mechanic, avoidance, or high healing?
Offensively, pure burst combos, a dot game, a strong single target spammable, proc damage, a cc game, defiles?

Once you determine how you want it to play you decide what is good. Class strengths are high max stats, high crit damage, defensive rewards for being on the offensive, first strike potential is peak, and i think there are good arguments to be made for using any weapon available in the game, ie there's a ton of flexibility.

Iskiab · January 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

I don't think they're trash (curious which you think are just bad) but they are tricky to synergize unless you trod old paths. Refreshing path is imo among the most overloaded skills but does require resto staff to make it truly shine. So I get wym there, isk. Same with crippling grasp, it's decent by itself, worth 8% max magicka increase plus a decent dot plus two ccs, but isn't it better combined with clench over hysteria? Ofc. Veil of blades ulti is perfect for flag grabs but doesn't fit a mobile play at all.

I think with magblade you need to say, what am I trying to accomplish, what is my actual intended playstyle here, and how can I accomplish it? Why magblade over another class, what is this class giving?

Starting with defense. Stand your ground with shields/resistance/block mechanic, avoidance, or high healing?
Offensively, pure burst combos, a dot game, a strong single target spammable, proc damage, a cc game, defiles?

Once you determine how you want it to play you decide what is good. Class strengths are high max stats, high crit damage, defensive rewards for being on the offensive, first strike potential is peak, and i think there are good arguments to be made for using any weapon available in the game, ie there's a ton of flexibility.

I disagree about refreshing path, it’s not overloaded at all, that’s why only magblade healer specs use it. It’s decent in pve where people stay in one place and stack, or for giving expedition to a group when you’re going places, but even then the cost is pretty high. Unless you’re staying stacked on the path (pve) then the healing is really bad. It takes 4 ticks to have the same healing amount as combat prayer, and with lots of movement you’re probably only going to get 2 ticks.

Stats are higher yea, but if you look at magblade abilities they’ve been balanced around higher stats already. That’s why getting your passives and then using all weapon/guild skills is usually the best way to build.

I dropped fear too. People like to stun for no reason or use immovability pots so defensively it’s meh. Unreliable. For your stun Invig drain or the speed morph is better. I also used mist on my back bar, it’s more reliable then any of the other magblade defenses. Mist to get separation from your shade is definitely worth it.

I should write up a list of all the crappy magblade abilities. There are quite a few.

Thing about including passives when you think about abilities, every class has them. Magblade passives are no better then other classes passives too, so it’s not like you’re getting ahead with 8% mag from slotting a siphoning ability. The 8% mag isn’t part of the ability.

Metemsycosis · January 2020

It's crazy the different places we come from.

Expedition isn't everywhere. But for the magblade it is. That's a part of the way i think about the kit, specific skills imo mesh really well (path-shade-shade-path is an excellent way to engage-escape). It is easier to maintain 100% uptime on expedition bc it's involved with several skills. That's a double-edged sword. Practically i like it but when building maybe I only want ONE source of expedition and other sources are redundant, so i value the skills less. I think a good way to balance this would be to reduce redundance among skills, aside from passives, without eliminating it. (Im looking at double take and think it's useless compared to path, for example)

I get that passives aren't a part of the abilities but you can't overlook the passives they trigger when assigning value to them in your build. Having a 100% uptime on the shadow barrier passive is huge, since imo magblade is one of the most active classes - you won't have that 4k resistance boost otherwise, and it's significant.

Rn bc of the tank-heal meta, magblade suffers bc as u say we don't have a comparable tool to the rest of the classes. No matriarch, Dragon blood, breath of life, trellis, etc. If we did tho cloak would imo deserve an instant nerf bc a good cloaking magblade WILL avoid more damage than a noncloaking magblade. Conclusion, imo, dark cloak should provide a burst heal but one that isn't as strong as breath of life or matriarch, bc magblades still have shade.

Metemsycosis · January 2020

Sort of back to what I was saying i think if the developers reconsidered some of the class archetypes - blood mage, healer, assassin, brawler, etc there would be better understanding of how skills intertwine to make something viable. Only some of these archetypes are actually viable, like healer and assassin, but not brawler or blood mage, and that's because the current skills don't altogether support the seemingly available styles. Hope that makes sense.

Iskiab · January 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

It's crazy the different places we come from.

Expedition isn't everywhere. But for the magblade it is. That's a part of the way i think about the kit, specific skills imo mesh really well (path-shade-shade-path is an excellent way to engage-escape). It is easier to maintain 100% uptime on expedition bc it's involved with several skills. That's a double-edged sword. Practically i like it but when building maybe I only want ONE source of expedition and other sources are redundant, so i value the skills less. I think a good way to balance this would be to reduce redundance among skills, aside from passives, without eliminating it. (Im looking at double take and think it's useless compared to path, for example)

I get that passives aren't a part of the abilities but you can't overlook the passives they trigger when assigning value to them in your build. Having a 100% uptime on the shadow barrier passive is huge, since imo magblade is one of the most active classes - you won't have that 4k resistance boost otherwise, and it's significant.

Rn bc of the tank-heal meta, magblade suffers bc as u say we don't have a comparable tool to the rest of the classes. No matriarch, Dragon blood, breath of life, trellis, etc. If we did tho cloak would imo deserve an instant nerf bc a good cloaking magblade WILL avoid more damage than a noncloaking magblade. Conclusion, imo, dark cloak should provide a burst heal but one that isn't as strong as breath of life or matriarch, bc magblades still have shade.

You know I was watching a magblade video where a dude was spamming dark cloak to sometimes get a double tick. For a second I though let it might stack.

One change they could do is reduce the healing of dark cloak a bit and make it stack with itself. That would solve a lot of problems.

I don’t get what you mean about major expedition not being common. RAT is a guild skill and almost all classes slot it or the mist that gives expedition, except sorcs and they have streak.

Magblades, unless you build for it with swift, actually play slower then other classes except warden and maybe Necro. DKs and Templars have passive snares, sorcs have streak. You can snare with crippling but it’s usually removed pretty quickly. That’s one of the reasons I prefer my magtemplar, it’s easier to kite (excluding shade).

brandonv516 · January 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

It's crazy the different places we come from.

Expedition isn't everywhere. But for the magblade it is. That's a part of the way i think about the kit, specific skills imo mesh really well (path-shade-shade-path is an excellent way to engage-escape). It is easier to maintain 100% uptime on expedition bc it's involved with several skills. That's a double-edged sword. Practically i like it but when building maybe I only want ONE source of expedition and other sources are redundant, so i value the skills less. I think a good way to balance this would be to reduce redundance among skills, aside from passives, without eliminating it. (Im looking at double take and think it's useless compared to path, for example)

I get that passives aren't a part of the abilities but you can't overlook the passives they trigger when assigning value to them in your build. Having a 100% uptime on the shadow barrier passive is huge, since imo magblade is one of the most active classes - you won't have that 4k resistance boost otherwise, and it's significant.

Rn bc of the tank-heal meta, magblade suffers bc as u say we don't have a comparable tool to the rest of the classes. No matriarch, Dragon blood, breath of life, trellis, etc. If we did tho cloak would imo deserve an instant nerf bc a good cloaking magblade WILL avoid more damage than a noncloaking magblade. Conclusion, imo, dark cloak should provide a burst heal but one that isn't as strong as breath of life or matriarch, bc magblades still have shade.

Not a fair argument - Sorcs have Streak which is marginally better than Shade, but they also got one of the strongest burst heals right now.

For the record, Nightblade has a strong single-target burst heal (Offering). Unfortunately it cannot be casted on the user (it could when it was initially introduced).

Going forward I'd like to see one morph addressed so it can be self-casted.

Metemsycosis · January 2020

A sorcs pets can die is why I said that, @brandonv516

@Iskiab how many sources of expedition do other classes have relative to nb?

NBrookus · January 2020

The ultimate buff that nightblade needs is Consuming Darkness. It's utterly eclipsed by Permafrost.

mav1234 · January 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

A sorcs pets can die is why I said that, @brandonv516

@Iskiab how many sources of expedition do other classes have relative to nb?

largely irrelevant given the commonness of it on guild lines (not to mention bow & dw) when discussing actual class strengths IMO, but DK has it on a gap closer, Warden has it with a minor beserk (qq), Sorc has it on their major resolve buff...

also, what sources of major expedition do nbs even still have? isn't it just path ...? I must have missed something heh.

brandonv516 · January 2020

mav1234 wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

A sorcs pets can die is why I said that, @brandonv516

@Iskiab how many sources of expedition do other classes have relative to nb?

largely irrelevant given the commonness of it on guild lines (not to mention bow & dw) when discussing actual class strengths IMO, but DK has it on a gap closer, Warden has it with a minor beserk (qq), Sorc has it on their major resolve buff...

also, what sources of major expedition do nbs even still have? isn't it just path ...? I must have missed something heh.

It is just Path.

Kadoin · January 2020

Can you explain how this actually adds any group utility?

I cannot see it doing anything besides increasing the power of a solo bomber build, but maybe its just me. If you really want to have its utility you should be asking for them to remove the delay on healing on the skill (tether), and a removal of cast time on soul siphon if they are planning to keep the cast time.

It's ridiculous to have to hold block to use an ultimate for a heal, or die trying.

Metemsycosis · January 2020

Wait phantasmal and crippling grasp no longer grant expedition?

brandonv516 · January 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Wait phantasmal and crippling grasp no longer grant expedition?

Correct.

And...

-Fear no longer provides Minor Maim
-Merciless no longer provides Minor Berserk
-Swallow Soul no longer provides Minor Vitality

In case you missed those too.

Metemsycosis · January 2020

Smh sorry I shelved my magblade, seemingly for a reason lol
Does concealed weapon???

mav1234 · January 2020

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Smh sorry I shelved my magblade, seemingly for a reason lol
Does concealed weapon???

This is what some of us have been saying, heh.

Concealed still provides a (stacking) speed bonus in cloak, fwiw, so magblade can have some nice situational/stealthy speed. But it isn't expedition perse. I half expect to see it gone in a future patch

Xvorg · January 2020

brandonv516 wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Wait phantasmal and crippling grasp no longer grant expedition?

Correct.

And...

-Fear no longer provides Minor Maim.
-Merciless no longer provides Minor Berserk
-Swallow Soul no longer provides Minor Vitality

In case you missed those too.

You missed the cast time on Tether and death stroke and the silence on Incap

Iskiab · January 2020

Can’t block cancel soul siphon too, and the 1 second cast time can be interrupted. Don’t forget that one, so annoying.

Hamboot · January 2020

Kadoin wrote: »

Can you explain how this actually adds any group utility?

I cannot see it doing anything besides increasing the power of a solo bomber build, but maybe its just me. If you really want to have its utility you should be asking for them to remove the delay on healing on the skill (tether), and a removal of cast time on soul siphon if they are planning to keep the cast time.

It's ridiculous to have to hold block to use an ultimate for a heal, or die trying.

I mean group pvp relies a lot on tons of aoes, magblade in a group setting already uses skills like sap essence, increasing the dmg of an ulti like tether based on how many players are hit could significantly increase it's utility especially when used with sap essence, increasing the radius (so that more players are hit) of lotus fan knowing that this skill has been buffed recently so that now it can deal aoe minor vulnerability + dot would also increase the group dmg potential of the class