Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You people are amazing. (And by amazing, I mean dishonest.)

Here's a question for you: if DKs are so "weak," why can't I play a single BG without seeing at least 4 - 6 of them? (Spoiler: because they're not weak.)

You only need a basic understanding of the game to get well over 1 mil damage a DK in a BG, and because they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game, if you have any skill at all that high damage all but guarantees a high kill to death ratio.

DK is one of the most forgiving classes to play in the game. If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.🙄

Maybe is a L2P issue on your side

And we all agree that mageblade needs better tools, though in good hands can wreck an entire team

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be on your side, too?

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You people are amazing. (And by amazing, I mean dishonest.)

Here's a question for you: if DKs are so "weak," why can't I play a single BG without seeing at least 4 - 6 of them? (Spoiler: because they're not weak.)

You only need a basic understanding of the game to get well over 1 mil damage a DK in a BG, and because they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game, if you have any skill at all that high damage all but guarantees a high kill to death ratio.

DK is one of the most forgiving classes to play in the game. If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.🙄

Maybe is a L2P issue on your side

And we all agree that mageblade needs better tools, though in good hands can wreck an entire team

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be on your side, too?

hmm, nope

My problem with the class is not that it is weak but that it lacks identity and each 6 months I have to re-learn to play it because ZoS has no respect for their own design.

But the change to wings and stonefist was a low blow. Not only took away identity, also punished the class, making it dependant on weapon skills to get access to ranged gameplay, without adding anything that eases class mobility or improving the current mechanics (major exp on a gap closer is the most stupid mechanic in this game)

There were counters to wings. Now as a DK, what's the counter I have against a kitting sorc? Just clutch on a ranged weapon or burn my stam trying to catch him?

What's the advantage of current wings? 50% lower dmg against projectiles which are 13 skills in the whole game. Nothing about melee dmg, nothing about non projectile ranged dmg... at least msorcs can mitigate everything with a shield, and if the shield goes down in middle of the fight, they just recast it. A DK overwhelmed by projectiles will not get any benefit of recasting wings. The mitigation will be exactly the same. Any chance to fight back in that situation?

As a DK, I know all the counters to the class. The fun part is that few smart guys use those counters. Then they complain about DKs OP in the same way there were guys complaining about NBs OP that never slotted any counter, but preferred to nerf the class on the forums than to L2P... and what's the current status of NB?

Well, an advice for you all. Do you want to tear down entire groups of DKs easily? Just tell your friends to spam snipe as there's no tomorrow. There's no way they are going to react to that. They have no ranged tools and the only thing they can do is to cast wings and block. After a couple of rounds, stam goes to 0, just like magicka and they become easy preys. Just make sure to keep range and to spread your archers. Maybe the only thing they could do is to use leap to close the gap and regain resources, but you just need to block, dodge roll with your bow and run and the DK will have to chose betwee blockin or running to catch you.

Happy hunt.

Dragonredux wrote: »

I love how people took a joke thread and turned it into a serious discussion. Truly amazing.

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You people are amazing. (And by amazing, I mean dishonest.)

Here's a question for you: if DKs are so "weak," why can't I play a single BG without seeing at least 4 - 6 of them? (Spoiler: because they're not weak.)

You only need a basic understanding of the game to get well over 1 mil damage a DK in a BG, and because they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game, if you have any skill at all that high damage all but guarantees a high kill to death ratio.

DK is one of the most forgiving classes to play in the game. If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.🙄

Maybe is a L2P issue on your side

And we all agree that mageblade needs better tools, though in good hands can wreck an entire team

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be on your side, too?

hmm, nope

My problem with the class is not that it is weak but that it lacks identity and each 6 months I have to re-learn to play it because ZoS has no respect for their own design.

But the change to wings and stonefist was a low blow. Not only took away identity, also punished the class, making it dependant on weapon skills to get access to ranged gameplay, without adding anything that eases class mobility or improving the current mechanics (major exp on a gap closer is the most stupid mechanic in this game)

There were counters to wings. Now as a DK, what's the counter I have against a kitting sorc? Just clutch on a ranged weapon or burn my stam trying to catch him?

What's the advantage of current wings? 50% lower dmg against projectiles which are 13 skills in the whole game. Nothing about melee dmg, nothing about non projectile ranged dmg... at least msorcs can mitigate everything with a shield, and if the shield goes down in middle of the fight, they just recast it. A DK overwhelmed by projectiles will not get any benefit of recasting wings. The mitigation will be exactly the same. Any chance to fight back in that situation?

As a DK, I know all the counters to the class. The fun part is that few smart guys use those counters. Then they complain about DKs OP in the same way there were guys complaining about NBs OP that never slotted any counter, but preferred to nerf the class on the forums than to L2P... and what's the current status of NB?

Well, an advice for you all. Do you want to tear down entire groups of DKs easily? Just tell your friends to spam snipe as there's no tomorrow. There's no way they are going to react to that. They have no ranged tools and the only thing they can do is to cast wings and block. After a couple of rounds, stam goes to 0, just like magicka and they become easy preys. Just make sure to keep range and to spread your archers. Maybe the only thing they could do is to use leap to close the gap and regain resources, but you just need to block, dodge roll with your bow and run and the DK will have to chose betwee blockin or running to catch you.

Happy hunt.

Firstly, let's try to keep the topic from bleeding over into other unrelated areas and focus up. Identity is definitely an issue, but one that's completely unrelated to firepower (as DKs, ironically, can attest to). I'll shelve that discussion for another thread without letting the problem go unacknowledged.

Secondly, why are we acting like range is a huge play in most situations? It never is kept for long in this game assuming we're in a small scale situation because snares are mostly attached to melee or AoE abilities, and even then only last several seconds at most, so there's little need for a hard counter. Major expedition and shuffle is enough to catch up to almost anyone that isn't booking it with similar buffs themselves (read: these magic sorcs people keep referencing that can somehow keep full shields up, kite indefinitely, and deal whole health bars worth of damage in 1 skill) and most of the good DKs I encounter use this combo to excellent effect. If that isn't enough for you, there are gap closers on weapon abilities if you're so inclined. What else are you asking for here? What are your terms for a 'counter'?

I'll say a few words about shields and wings since I play a sorc as one of my favored classes. I think that wings in the current iteration is a little bit underwhelming, but there was no doubt a serious issue with the previous reflecting iteration: it completely dominated some ranged playstyles. You might be thinking that there was a built in counter because it only reflected a limited number of projectiles and one could light attack it off, but consider the following: LAs take time, proc enchant effects, and deal a significant portion of damage on their own. It becomes almost impossible to kill a DK in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario if all of that is flying into a player's face in addition to a DK in full-damage swing mode. You can't CC him because all your CC abilities are projectiles, and you can't wait for it to go away because if you don't pressure him and remove it prematurely, he has enough mag sustain to rotate it.

On shields: These are really good at dealing with large amounts of damage in short intervals, but are really, really bad at dealing with sustained damage and very well timed burst. DKs have possibly the best edge on this on numerous fronts. Timing is everything; you can wait for the shield to come close to wearing off and CC/burst then, or lay on enough pressure to run them out of mag. Each cast is something like 4k mag, lol.

Ok

1- This guy basically said DKs were crybabies. This is fun because it based all his speech in BGs fights and how those DKs get strong numbers. It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data AND the opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false. Any templar throwing rune inside ritual will get moar defense). So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance. I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?

2- Then you asked me if was a L2P issue on my side, while playing DK. Which is not. I win some fights, as I lose some other in spite my own experience. I tend to think the guys that beats me is because he's better, or because I'm experimenting with the class. Sure, I could go with the classic set up of any DK, using the very same repetitive gameplay most DKs use, but I will not be in position to speak about those skills that should be improved to vary a little the playing style. For example Inhale, which was a key skill at some point but that today see's no gameplay outside a ball group. If I'm going to use the couple of skills that currently work on DK, then I'll conclude that the class is strong, but that's a false statement.

3- Having differentiated what's a good class, from what's a class with some skills that work, we can start talking about balance issues. Whip doesn't need balance, same as Searing strike or breath. The rest of the skills in that skill line, including passives, need to be revisited. Then we jump to dragon skill and we can say that just Leap is a good skill (buggy, but good). CDB is quite close to being OK, but the mehanic that gives you more healing based on lose health is wrong. In simple words the skill cannot be countered by lag. DKs is a reactive class and if the information from the server reaches you 1 or 2 secs later, then there's a high chance you will end up dead. That's not what a "forgiving class" will ever do. All the rest of the skills in the line are in bad conditions. Sometime ago talons were good, but the root immunity killed that skill... what's amazing on ZoS side is that they nerfed a mechanic but they didn't provide a retribution for that nerf. Now, going to Earth line... that's the most balanced line at the end, decent skills and good passives, but poop fist...

4- Shuffle is a good skill, should I use it on my mDK? Probably not. Probably I should use RaT instead, and then burn my stamina running. The same stamina I use to block attacks, because as a DK I must block attacks even more than before since plate does not protect me from missiles as it used to be. Now saying that god Dks use shuffle makes me doubt a little about... is there any stam DK using medium armor? Hard to say. It is a class that gets a lot of benefits using 7th legion (even in this iteration) + Fury... I'm quite sure no DK uses medium armor, but I could be wrong. Maybe you could clarify that point.

5- Ok, there's a reason behind reflect: DK is a melee class. In simple words, any sdk fighting a stam sorc just with a bow, is going to lose because no skill and no passive in the DK set helps with ranged play. Try if if you want. DKs is strong in melee and, when it was designed it needed certain form of protection while closing the gap towards the ranged enemy. In other words, it needs a move that protects him while running towards the enemy. It cannot be blocking and it cannot be an ulti. Now that mechanic is lost and replaced with a mechanic that does not protects you, neither prevents you from being CCed. And that is not even close to be fair. mSorc had a hard time fighting DKs because DK was its hard counter... now DKs is no hard counter to anything anymore. Yeah, good DKs kill sorc as it always have been, but what about good DKs vs Good sorcs? In duesl the DK has the advantage because the duel zone is limited, but open world any decent sorc is going to wreck any DK just because of the range advantage. And what's even funnier, sorcs DO HAVE skills that work against melee enemies. Streak, Encase, Mines, even OL Full Heavy stops any DK coming to you. If you don't use them, well, that's another problem.

6- At the end, last 10 patches DK has been changed a lot and the only thing Dks have got back is seething fury (that lasted only one patch), everything else it is a nerf, or a semi buff. The class wasn't overperforming. Wings needed an adjustment (maybe reflecting only projectiles over 15 mts) but not a completely rework on its identity. The class needed a reliable resource recovery passive and not one depending on ramdomness. The extra 2 mts in melee are good, but to get it the main spammable of mDK was nerfed in 3 mts (***?)... now the Poop throw is just another of those "buffs" which look fine at the beginning, but are just can full of dissapointment (and poop)... DKs are supposed to bring fire and fury to the battlefield... but is just bringing feces...

Langeston wrote: »

they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game

Xvorg wrote: »

I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?"

Langeston wrote: »

If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.

Xvorg wrote: »

This guy basically said DKs were crybabies.

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You people are amazing. (And by amazing, I mean dishonest.)

Here's a question for you: if DKs are so "weak," why can't I play a single BG without seeing at least 4 - 6 of them? (Spoiler: because they're not weak.)

You only need a basic understanding of the game to get well over 1 mil damage a DK in a BG, and because they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game, if you have any skill at all that high damage all but guarantees a high kill to death ratio.

DK is one of the most forgiving classes to play in the game. If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.🙄

Maybe is a L2P issue on your side

And we all agree that mageblade needs better tools, though in good hands can wreck an entire team

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be on your side, too?

hmm, nope

My problem with the class is not that it is weak but that it lacks identity and each 6 months I have to re-learn to play it because ZoS has no respect for their own design.

But the change to wings and stonefist was a low blow. Not only took away identity, also punished the class, making it dependant on weapon skills to get access to ranged gameplay, without adding anything that eases class mobility or improving the current mechanics (major exp on a gap closer is the most stupid mechanic in this game)

There were counters to wings. Now as a DK, what's the counter I have against a kitting sorc? Just clutch on a ranged weapon or burn my stam trying to catch him?

What's the advantage of current wings? 50% lower dmg against projectiles which are 13 skills in the whole game. Nothing about melee dmg, nothing about non projectile ranged dmg... at least msorcs can mitigate everything with a shield, and if the shield goes down in middle of the fight, they just recast it. A DK overwhelmed by projectiles will not get any benefit of recasting wings. The mitigation will be exactly the same. Any chance to fight back in that situation?

As a DK, I know all the counters to the class. The fun part is that few smart guys use those counters. Then they complain about DKs OP in the same way there were guys complaining about NBs OP that never slotted any counter, but preferred to nerf the class on the forums than to L2P... and what's the current status of NB?

Well, an advice for you all. Do you want to tear down entire groups of DKs easily? Just tell your friends to spam snipe as there's no tomorrow. There's no way they are going to react to that. They have no ranged tools and the only thing they can do is to cast wings and block. After a couple of rounds, stam goes to 0, just like magicka and they become easy preys. Just make sure to keep range and to spread your archers. Maybe the only thing they could do is to use leap to close the gap and regain resources, but you just need to block, dodge roll with your bow and run and the DK will have to chose betwee blockin or running to catch you.

Happy hunt.

Firstly, let's try to keep the topic from bleeding over into other unrelated areas and focus up. Identity is definitely an issue, but one that's completely unrelated to firepower (as DKs, ironically, can attest to). I'll shelve that discussion for another thread without letting the problem go unacknowledged.

Secondly, why are we acting like range is a huge play in most situations? It never is kept for long in this game assuming we're in a small scale situation because snares are mostly attached to melee or AoE abilities, and even then only last several seconds at most, so there's little need for a hard counter. Major expedition and shuffle is enough to catch up to almost anyone that isn't booking it with similar buffs themselves (read: these magic sorcs people keep referencing that can somehow keep full shields up, kite indefinitely, and deal whole health bars worth of damage in 1 skill) and most of the good DKs I encounter use this combo to excellent effect. If that isn't enough for you, there are gap closers on weapon abilities if you're so inclined. What else are you asking for here? What are your terms for a 'counter'?

I'll say a few words about shields and wings since I play a sorc as one of my favored classes. I think that wings in the current iteration is a little bit underwhelming, but there was no doubt a serious issue with the previous reflecting iteration: it completely dominated some ranged playstyles. You might be thinking that there was a built in counter because it only reflected a limited number of projectiles and one could light attack it off, but consider the following: LAs take time, proc enchant effects, and deal a significant portion of damage on their own. It becomes almost impossible to kill a DK in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario if all of that is flying into a player's face in addition to a DK in full-damage swing mode. You can't CC him because all your CC abilities are projectiles, and you can't wait for it to go away because if you don't pressure him and remove it prematurely, he has enough mag sustain to rotate it.

On shields: These are really good at dealing with large amounts of damage in short intervals, but are really, really bad at dealing with sustained damage and very well timed burst. DKs have possibly the best edge on this on numerous fronts. Timing is everything; you can wait for the shield to come close to wearing off and CC/burst then, or lay on enough pressure to run them out of mag. Each cast is something like 4k mag, lol.

Ok

1- This guy basically said DKs were crybabies. This is fun because it based all his speech in BGs fights and how those DKs get strong numbers. It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data AND the opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false. Any templar throwing rune inside ritual will get moar defense). So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance. I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?

2- Then you asked me if was a L2P issue on my side, while playing DK. Which is not. I win some fights, as I lose some other in spite my own experience. I tend to think the guys that beats me is because he's better, or because I'm experimenting with the class. Sure, I could go with the classic set up of any DK, using the very same repetitive gameplay most DKs use, but I will not be in position to speak about those skills that should be improved to vary a little the playing style. For example Inhale, which was a key skill at some point but that today see's no gameplay outside a ball group. If I'm going to use the couple of skills that currently work on DK, then I'll conclude that the class is strong, but that's a false statement.

3- Having differentiated what's a good class, from what's a class with some skills that work, we can start talking about balance issues. Whip doesn't need balance, same as Searing strike or breath. The rest of the skills in that skill line, including passives, need to be revisited. Then we jump to dragon skill and we can say that just Leap is a good skill (buggy, but good). CDB is quite close to being OK, but the mehanic that gives you more healing based on lose health is wrong. In simple words the skill cannot be countered by lag. DKs is a reactive class and if the information from the server reaches you 1 or 2 secs later, then there's a high chance you will end up dead. That's not what a "forgiving class" will ever do. All the rest of the skills in the line are in bad conditions. Sometime ago talons were good, but the root immunity killed that skill... what's amazing on ZoS side is that they nerfed a mechanic but they didn't provide a retribution for that nerf. Now, going to Earth line... that's the most balanced line at the end, decent skills and good passives, but poop fist...

4- Shuffle is a good skill, should I use it on my mDK? Probably not. Probably I should use RaT instead, and then burn my stamina running. The same stamina I use to block attacks, because as a DK I must block attacks even more than before since plate does not protect me from missiles as it used to be. Now saying that god Dks use shuffle makes me doubt a little about... is there any stam DK using medium armor? Hard to say. It is a class that gets a lot of benefits using 7th legion (even in this iteration) + Fury... I'm quite sure no DK uses medium armor, but I could be wrong. Maybe you could clarify that point.

5- Ok, there's a reason behind reflect: DK is a melee class. In simple words, any sdk fighting a stam sorc just with a bow, is going to lose because no skill and no passive in the DK set helps with ranged play. Try if if you want. DKs is strong in melee and, when it was designed it needed certain form of protection while closing the gap towards the ranged enemy. In other words, it needs a move that protects him while running towards the enemy. It cannot be blocking and it cannot be an ulti. Now that mechanic is lost and replaced with a mechanic that does not protects you, neither prevents you from being CCed. And that is not even close to be fair. mSorc had a hard time fighting DKs because DK was its hard counter... now DKs is no hard counter to anything anymore. Yeah, good DKs kill sorc as it always have been, but what about good DKs vs Good sorcs? In duesl the DK has the advantage because the duel zone is limited, but open world any decent sorc is going to wreck any DK just because of the range advantage. And what's even funnier, sorcs DO HAVE skills that work against melee enemies. Streak, Encase, Mines, even OL Full Heavy stops any DK coming to you. If you don't use them, well, that's another problem.

6- At the end, last 10 patches DK has been changed a lot and the only thing Dks have got back is seething fury (that lasted only one patch), everything else it is a nerf, or a semi buff. The class wasn't overperforming. Wings needed an adjustment (maybe reflecting only projectiles over 15 mts) but not a completely rework on its identity. The class needed a reliable resource recovery passive and not one depending on ramdomness. The extra 2 mts in melee are good, but to get it the main spammable of mDK was nerfed in 3 mts (***?)... now the Poop throw is just another of those "buffs" which look fine at the beginning, but are just can full of dissapointment (and poop)... DKs are supposed to bring fire and fury to the battlefield... but is just bringing feces...

Forget "L2P", you need to L2Read. (I'm only going to address your first point because that's where I stopped reading — you made it pretty clear that you aren't interested in debating in good-faith.)

First off, you said that it was my "opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false."

My full statement was actually:

Langeston wrote: »

they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game

Meaning: if they don't have the best defenses in the game, they have "some of the best." Putting aside the fact that you selectively quoted me in a misleading way, I don't think anyone would [honestly] dispute that DKs have among the best defenses in the game.

Moving on, we have this interesting passage:

Xvorg wrote: »

I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?"

Again, did you even bother to read my post? I said:

Langeston wrote: »

If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.

You yourself said in an earlier post that "as a DK, [you] know all the counters to the class". If you (with your vast wealth of knowledge) are unable to beat DKs on a magblade, you not only didn't refute my statement — you reinforced it. Then, immediately after saying that you're unable to beat DKs on a magblade, you say it's a "L2P" issue when I have the same experience.

You also made the assumption that "It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data" and "So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance". I'm not sure where you got either of those from, but it certainly wasn't based on anything I said.

Actually, the only part you did get right was:

Xvorg wrote: »

This guy basically said DKs were crybabies.

If you want to whine about how "sad" the state of your class is, go right ahead. But if you're not even going to try to be honest about what I said, then do me a favor and leave me out of it.

Ok

1- There's not such thing as "some of the best". The best is always one, not a group. Yes, DK has good defenses, does it have anything to do with offense? No, right? @Escorpiao_Noturno can give you a loooong explanation about being a DK survivig zergs and never dying, and killing once in a while. With that said the defense on DKs is basically a combination of options available for all classes. Major ward? Extra Blocking? I mean, is that the super powered defense? C'mon, you can do it better.

2- What I said is that I have no problems killing DKs. On my Mageblade I have more problems but it is possible, not because the DK is strong, but because NB has been overnerfed. In fact if you read my first answer I said this: . Nevertheless, to learn hot to kill other classes you must play those other classes. If you say you have problems killing DKs what could that mean? You don't know the class. You don't know its weak points, neither their strenghts, right? So, how is possible, that you can have an objective opinion in such conditions? Consider that if you wouldn't have problems with Dks, you wouldn't have complained here. You don't complaint about things you know how to deal, do you?
So based on your complaint I can say you have just a couple of hours playing DK, otherwise you will know the mechanics of the class and you will know how to deal with it. You don't have to write a long explanation about that.

Regarding my opinion on DKs, you have said nothing. That makes me suppose that you are ok with a class with 0 ranged class skills/mechanics and that reinforces my opinion that you pay little attention to the class.

Anyway, I can ask whatever I want for my class to get it under what I consider is balance. Dk is unbalanced. It has some good melee tools but 0 ranged tools. You cannot say that's balance, can you?

Langeston wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You people are amazing. (And by amazing, I mean dishonest.)

Here's a question for you: if DKs are so "weak," why can't I play a single BG without seeing at least 4 - 6 of them? (Spoiler: because they're not weak.)

You only need a basic understanding of the game to get well over 1 mil damage a DK in a BG, and because they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game, if you have any skill at all that high damage all but guarantees a high kill to death ratio.

DK is one of the most forgiving classes to play in the game. If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.🙄

Maybe is a L2P issue on your side

And we all agree that mageblade needs better tools, though in good hands can wreck an entire team

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be on your side, too?

hmm, nope

My problem with the class is not that it is weak but that it lacks identity and each 6 months I have to re-learn to play it because ZoS has no respect for their own design.

But the change to wings and stonefist was a low blow. Not only took away identity, also punished the class, making it dependant on weapon skills to get access to ranged gameplay, without adding anything that eases class mobility or improving the current mechanics (major exp on a gap closer is the most stupid mechanic in this game)

There were counters to wings. Now as a DK, what's the counter I have against a kitting sorc? Just clutch on a ranged weapon or burn my stam trying to catch him?

What's the advantage of current wings? 50% lower dmg against projectiles which are 13 skills in the whole game. Nothing about melee dmg, nothing about non projectile ranged dmg... at least msorcs can mitigate everything with a shield, and if the shield goes down in middle of the fight, they just recast it. A DK overwhelmed by projectiles will not get any benefit of recasting wings. The mitigation will be exactly the same. Any chance to fight back in that situation?

As a DK, I know all the counters to the class. The fun part is that few smart guys use those counters. Then they complain about DKs OP in the same way there were guys complaining about NBs OP that never slotted any counter, but preferred to nerf the class on the forums than to L2P... and what's the current status of NB?

Well, an advice for you all. Do you want to tear down entire groups of DKs easily? Just tell your friends to spam snipe as there's no tomorrow. There's no way they are going to react to that. They have no ranged tools and the only thing they can do is to cast wings and block. After a couple of rounds, stam goes to 0, just like magicka and they become easy preys. Just make sure to keep range and to spread your archers. Maybe the only thing they could do is to use leap to close the gap and regain resources, but you just need to block, dodge roll with your bow and run and the DK will have to chose betwee blockin or running to catch you.

Happy hunt.

Firstly, let's try to keep the topic from bleeding over into other unrelated areas and focus up. Identity is definitely an issue, but one that's completely unrelated to firepower (as DKs, ironically, can attest to). I'll shelve that discussion for another thread without letting the problem go unacknowledged.

Secondly, why are we acting like range is a huge play in most situations? It never is kept for long in this game assuming we're in a small scale situation because snares are mostly attached to melee or AoE abilities, and even then only last several seconds at most, so there's little need for a hard counter. Major expedition and shuffle is enough to catch up to almost anyone that isn't booking it with similar buffs themselves (read: these magic sorcs people keep referencing that can somehow keep full shields up, kite indefinitely, and deal whole health bars worth of damage in 1 skill) and most of the good DKs I encounter use this combo to excellent effect. If that isn't enough for you, there are gap closers on weapon abilities if you're so inclined. What else are you asking for here? What are your terms for a 'counter'?

I'll say a few words about shields and wings since I play a sorc as one of my favored classes. I think that wings in the current iteration is a little bit underwhelming, but there was no doubt a serious issue with the previous reflecting iteration: it completely dominated some ranged playstyles. You might be thinking that there was a built in counter because it only reflected a limited number of projectiles and one could light attack it off, but consider the following: LAs take time, proc enchant effects, and deal a significant portion of damage on their own. It becomes almost impossible to kill a DK in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario if all of that is flying into a player's face in addition to a DK in full-damage swing mode. You can't CC him because all your CC abilities are projectiles, and you can't wait for it to go away because if you don't pressure him and remove it prematurely, he has enough mag sustain to rotate it.

On shields: These are really good at dealing with large amounts of damage in short intervals, but are really, really bad at dealing with sustained damage and very well timed burst. DKs have possibly the best edge on this on numerous fronts. Timing is everything; you can wait for the shield to come close to wearing off and CC/burst then, or lay on enough pressure to run them out of mag. Each cast is something like 4k mag, lol.

Ok

1- This guy basically said DKs were crybabies. This is fun because it based all his speech in BGs fights and how those DKs get strong numbers. It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data AND the opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false. Any templar throwing rune inside ritual will get moar defense). So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance. I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?

2- Then you asked me if was a L2P issue on my side, while playing DK. Which is not. I win some fights, as I lose some other in spite my own experience. I tend to think the guys that beats me is because he's better, or because I'm experimenting with the class. Sure, I could go with the classic set up of any DK, using the very same repetitive gameplay most DKs use, but I will not be in position to speak about those skills that should be improved to vary a little the playing style. For example Inhale, which was a key skill at some point but that today see's no gameplay outside a ball group. If I'm going to use the couple of skills that currently work on DK, then I'll conclude that the class is strong, but that's a false statement.

3- Having differentiated what's a good class, from what's a class with some skills that work, we can start talking about balance issues. Whip doesn't need balance, same as Searing strike or breath. The rest of the skills in that skill line, including passives, need to be revisited. Then we jump to dragon skill and we can say that just Leap is a good skill (buggy, but good). CDB is quite close to being OK, but the mehanic that gives you more healing based on lose health is wrong. In simple words the skill cannot be countered by lag. DKs is a reactive class and if the information from the server reaches you 1 or 2 secs later, then there's a high chance you will end up dead. That's not what a "forgiving class" will ever do. All the rest of the skills in the line are in bad conditions. Sometime ago talons were good, but the root immunity killed that skill... what's amazing on ZoS side is that they nerfed a mechanic but they didn't provide a retribution for that nerf. Now, going to Earth line... that's the most balanced line at the end, decent skills and good passives, but poop fist...

4- Shuffle is a good skill, should I use it on my mDK? Probably not. Probably I should use RaT instead, and then burn my stamina running. The same stamina I use to block attacks, because as a DK I must block attacks even more than before since plate does not protect me from missiles as it used to be. Now saying that god Dks use shuffle makes me doubt a little about... is there any stam DK using medium armor? Hard to say. It is a class that gets a lot of benefits using 7th legion (even in this iteration) + Fury... I'm quite sure no DK uses medium armor, but I could be wrong. Maybe you could clarify that point.

5- Ok, there's a reason behind reflect: DK is a melee class. In simple words, any sdk fighting a stam sorc just with a bow, is going to lose because no skill and no passive in the DK set helps with ranged play. Try if if you want. DKs is strong in melee and, when it was designed it needed certain form of protection while closing the gap towards the ranged enemy. In other words, it needs a move that protects him while running towards the enemy. It cannot be blocking and it cannot be an ulti. Now that mechanic is lost and replaced with a mechanic that does not protects you, neither prevents you from being CCed. And that is not even close to be fair. mSorc had a hard time fighting DKs because DK was its hard counter... now DKs is no hard counter to anything anymore. Yeah, good DKs kill sorc as it always have been, but what about good DKs vs Good sorcs? In duesl the DK has the advantage because the duel zone is limited, but open world any decent sorc is going to wreck any DK just because of the range advantage. And what's even funnier, sorcs DO HAVE skills that work against melee enemies. Streak, Encase, Mines, even OL Full Heavy stops any DK coming to you. If you don't use them, well, that's another problem.

6- At the end, last 10 patches DK has been changed a lot and the only thing Dks have got back is seething fury (that lasted only one patch), everything else it is a nerf, or a semi buff. The class wasn't overperforming. Wings needed an adjustment (maybe reflecting only projectiles over 15 mts) but not a completely rework on its identity. The class needed a reliable resource recovery passive and not one depending on ramdomness. The extra 2 mts in melee are good, but to get it the main spammable of mDK was nerfed in 3 mts (***?)... now the Poop throw is just another of those "buffs" which look fine at the beginning, but are just can full of dissapointment (and poop)... DKs are supposed to bring fire and fury to the battlefield... but is just bringing feces...

Forget "L2P", you need to L2Read. (I'm only going to address your first point because that's where I stopped reading — you made it pretty clear that you aren't interested in debating in good-faith.)

First off, you said that it was my "opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false."

My full statement was actually:

Langeston wrote: »

they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game

Meaning: if they don't have the best defenses in the game, they have "some of the best." Putting aside the fact that you selectively quoted me in a misleading way, I don't think anyone would [honestly] dispute that DKs have among the best defenses in the game.

Moving on, we have this interesting passage:

Xvorg wrote: »

I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?"

Again, did you even bother to read my post? I said:

Langeston wrote: »

If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.

You yourself said in an earlier post that "as a DK, [you] know all the counters to the class". If you (with your vast wealth of knowledge) are unable to beat DKs on a magblade, you not only didn't refute my statement — you reinforced it. Then, immediately after saying that you're unable to beat DKs on a magblade, you say it's a "L2P" issue when I have the same experience.

You also made the assumption that "It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data" and "So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance". I'm not sure where you got either of those from, but it certainly wasn't based on anything I said.

Actually, the only part you did get right was:

Xvorg wrote: »

This guy basically said DKs were crybabies.

If you want to whine about how "sad" the state of your class is, go right ahead. But if you're not even going to try to be honest about what I said, then do me a favor and leave me out of it.

Ok

1- There's not such thing as "some of the best". The best is always one, not a group. Yes, DK has good defenses, does it have anything to do with offense? No, right? @Escorpiao_Noturno can give you a loooong explanation about being a DK survivig zergs and never dying, and killing once in a while. With that said the defense on DKs is basically a combination of options available for all classes. Major ward? Extra Blocking? I mean, is that the super powered defense? C'mon, you can do it better.

Oh, please. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've never said: "that's one of the best _______ I've had," or "he's one of the best _________ that I've ever seen"? I'm sorry, but that is just absurd. Anyone with a shred of integrity that plays the class has no problem admitting that they have an incredibly strong defensive toolkit. I'm not the one that needs to "do it better" here.

2- What I said is that I have no problems killing DKs. On my Mageblade I have more problems but it is possible, not because the DK is strong, but because NB has been overnerfed. In fact if you read my first answer I said this: . Nevertheless, to learn hot to kill other classes you must play those other classes. If you say you have problems killing DKs what could that mean? You don't know the class. You don't know its weak points, neither their strenghts, right? So, how is possible, that you can have an objective opinion in such conditions? Consider that if you wouldn't have problems with Dks, you wouldn't have complained here. You don't complaint about things you know how to deal, do you?
So based on your complaint I can say you have just a couple of hours playing DK, otherwise you will know the mechanics of the class and you will know how to deal with it. You don't have to write a long explanation about that.

If two equally skilled players are doing BGs together against solid teams, one on a Magblade and the other a DK, unless the magblade gets super lucky the DK will have consistently better matches — full stop. Every DK I know (people that are actually honest about the class) agrees with this assessment. They won't even play their magblades anymore (stamblades either, tbh) because it isn't even possible for them to get the same (or even similar) results to what they can achieve on their DKs. The rest of this section is just garbage — I do better than many of them do against DKs when they're on their NBs, even though they know the class way better than I do.

Regarding my opinion on DKs, you have said nothing. That makes me suppose that you are ok with a class with 0 ranged class skills/mechanics and that reinforces my opinion that you pay little attention to the class.

I have said all that I felt I needed to say: queue for a mid to high MMR BG — in almost all cases you'll see that at least a quarter of the players are on DKs — often even more than that. That plus the fact that any player capable of pressing 3 buttons in succession can do well with them is really all you need to know about the class to realize that it's in a much better position than you're trying to make it out to be.

Anyway, I can ask whatever I want for my class to get it under what I consider is balance. Dk is unbalanced. It has some good melee tools but 0 ranged tools. You cannot say that's balance, can you?

You can't just zero in on one aspect of a class like ranged abilities & conclude that the entire class isn't "balanced" because it doesn't completely curb-stomp every other class in every possible category. Did you ever stop to consider the idea that maybe ZOS wants DKs to be limited to close-quarter fights? You already have incredible damage, great healing, shields that make projectiles practically worthless, and one of if not the strongest ultimates in the game. If you seriously think that DKs are underpowered, you're the one that needs to "L2P."

In any case, I'm done with this conversation. You made it clear from the beginning that you weren't interested in being intellectually honest, and continuing further would be a waste of both of our our time.
Regards

Langeston wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

You people are amazing. (And by amazing, I mean dishonest.)

Here's a question for you: if DKs are so "weak," why can't I play a single BG without seeing at least 4 - 6 of them? (Spoiler: because they're not weak.)

You only need a basic understanding of the game to get well over 1 mil damage a DK in a BG, and because they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game, if you have any skill at all that high damage all but guarantees a high kill to death ratio.

DK is one of the most forgiving classes to play in the game. If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.🙄

Maybe is a L2P issue on your side

And we all agree that mageblade needs better tools, though in good hands can wreck an entire team

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be on your side, too?

hmm, nope

My problem with the class is not that it is weak but that it lacks identity and each 6 months I have to re-learn to play it because ZoS has no respect for their own design.

But the change to wings and stonefist was a low blow. Not only took away identity, also punished the class, making it dependant on weapon skills to get access to ranged gameplay, without adding anything that eases class mobility or improving the current mechanics (major exp on a gap closer is the most stupid mechanic in this game)

There were counters to wings. Now as a DK, what's the counter I have against a kitting sorc? Just clutch on a ranged weapon or burn my stam trying to catch him?

What's the advantage of current wings? 50% lower dmg against projectiles which are 13 skills in the whole game. Nothing about melee dmg, nothing about non projectile ranged dmg... at least msorcs can mitigate everything with a shield, and if the shield goes down in middle of the fight, they just recast it. A DK overwhelmed by projectiles will not get any benefit of recasting wings. The mitigation will be exactly the same. Any chance to fight back in that situation?

As a DK, I know all the counters to the class. The fun part is that few smart guys use those counters. Then they complain about DKs OP in the same way there were guys complaining about NBs OP that never slotted any counter, but preferred to nerf the class on the forums than to L2P... and what's the current status of NB?

Well, an advice for you all. Do you want to tear down entire groups of DKs easily? Just tell your friends to spam snipe as there's no tomorrow. There's no way they are going to react to that. They have no ranged tools and the only thing they can do is to cast wings and block. After a couple of rounds, stam goes to 0, just like magicka and they become easy preys. Just make sure to keep range and to spread your archers. Maybe the only thing they could do is to use leap to close the gap and regain resources, but you just need to block, dodge roll with your bow and run and the DK will have to chose betwee blockin or running to catch you.

Happy hunt.

Firstly, let's try to keep the topic from bleeding over into other unrelated areas and focus up. Identity is definitely an issue, but one that's completely unrelated to firepower (as DKs, ironically, can attest to). I'll shelve that discussion for another thread without letting the problem go unacknowledged.

Secondly, why are we acting like range is a huge play in most situations? It never is kept for long in this game assuming we're in a small scale situation because snares are mostly attached to melee or AoE abilities, and even then only last several seconds at most, so there's little need for a hard counter. Major expedition and shuffle is enough to catch up to almost anyone that isn't booking it with similar buffs themselves (read: these magic sorcs people keep referencing that can somehow keep full shields up, kite indefinitely, and deal whole health bars worth of damage in 1 skill) and most of the good DKs I encounter use this combo to excellent effect. If that isn't enough for you, there are gap closers on weapon abilities if you're so inclined. What else are you asking for here? What are your terms for a 'counter'?

I'll say a few words about shields and wings since I play a sorc as one of my favored classes. I think that wings in the current iteration is a little bit underwhelming, but there was no doubt a serious issue with the previous reflecting iteration: it completely dominated some ranged playstyles. You might be thinking that there was a built in counter because it only reflected a limited number of projectiles and one could light attack it off, but consider the following: LAs take time, proc enchant effects, and deal a significant portion of damage on their own. It becomes almost impossible to kill a DK in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario if all of that is flying into a player's face in addition to a DK in full-damage swing mode. You can't CC him because all your CC abilities are projectiles, and you can't wait for it to go away because if you don't pressure him and remove it prematurely, he has enough mag sustain to rotate it.

On shields: These are really good at dealing with large amounts of damage in short intervals, but are really, really bad at dealing with sustained damage and very well timed burst. DKs have possibly the best edge on this on numerous fronts. Timing is everything; you can wait for the shield to come close to wearing off and CC/burst then, or lay on enough pressure to run them out of mag. Each cast is something like 4k mag, lol.

Ok

1- This guy basically said DKs were crybabies. This is fun because it based all his speech in BGs fights and how those DKs get strong numbers. It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data AND the opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false. Any templar throwing rune inside ritual will get moar defense). So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance. I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?

2- Then you asked me if was a L2P issue on my side, while playing DK. Which is not. I win some fights, as I lose some other in spite my own experience. I tend to think the guys that beats me is because he's better, or because I'm experimenting with the class. Sure, I could go with the classic set up of any DK, using the very same repetitive gameplay most DKs use, but I will not be in position to speak about those skills that should be improved to vary a little the playing style. For example Inhale, which was a key skill at some point but that today see's no gameplay outside a ball group. If I'm going to use the couple of skills that currently work on DK, then I'll conclude that the class is strong, but that's a false statement.

3- Having differentiated what's a good class, from what's a class with some skills that work, we can start talking about balance issues. Whip doesn't need balance, same as Searing strike or breath. The rest of the skills in that skill line, including passives, need to be revisited. Then we jump to dragon skill and we can say that just Leap is a good skill (buggy, but good). CDB is quite close to being OK, but the mehanic that gives you more healing based on lose health is wrong. In simple words the skill cannot be countered by lag. DKs is a reactive class and if the information from the server reaches you 1 or 2 secs later, then there's a high chance you will end up dead. That's not what a "forgiving class" will ever do. All the rest of the skills in the line are in bad conditions. Sometime ago talons were good, but the root immunity killed that skill... what's amazing on ZoS side is that they nerfed a mechanic but they didn't provide a retribution for that nerf. Now, going to Earth line... that's the most balanced line at the end, decent skills and good passives, but poop fist...

4- Shuffle is a good skill, should I use it on my mDK? Probably not. Probably I should use RaT instead, and then burn my stamina running. The same stamina I use to block attacks, because as a DK I must block attacks even more than before since plate does not protect me from missiles as it used to be. Now saying that god Dks use shuffle makes me doubt a little about... is there any stam DK using medium armor? Hard to say. It is a class that gets a lot of benefits using 7th legion (even in this iteration) + Fury... I'm quite sure no DK uses medium armor, but I could be wrong. Maybe you could clarify that point.

5- Ok, there's a reason behind reflect: DK is a melee class. In simple words, any sdk fighting a stam sorc just with a bow, is going to lose because no skill and no passive in the DK set helps with ranged play. Try if if you want. DKs is strong in melee and, when it was designed it needed certain form of protection while closing the gap towards the ranged enemy. In other words, it needs a move that protects him while running towards the enemy. It cannot be blocking and it cannot be an ulti. Now that mechanic is lost and replaced with a mechanic that does not protects you, neither prevents you from being CCed. And that is not even close to be fair. mSorc had a hard time fighting DKs because DK was its hard counter... now DKs is no hard counter to anything anymore. Yeah, good DKs kill sorc as it always have been, but what about good DKs vs Good sorcs? In duesl the DK has the advantage because the duel zone is limited, but open world any decent sorc is going to wreck any DK just because of the range advantage. And what's even funnier, sorcs DO HAVE skills that work against melee enemies. Streak, Encase, Mines, even OL Full Heavy stops any DK coming to you. If you don't use them, well, that's another problem.

6- At the end, last 10 patches DK has been changed a lot and the only thing Dks have got back is seething fury (that lasted only one patch), everything else it is a nerf, or a semi buff. The class wasn't overperforming. Wings needed an adjustment (maybe reflecting only projectiles over 15 mts) but not a completely rework on its identity. The class needed a reliable resource recovery passive and not one depending on ramdomness. The extra 2 mts in melee are good, but to get it the main spammable of mDK was nerfed in 3 mts (***?)... now the Poop throw is just another of those "buffs" which look fine at the beginning, but are just can full of dissapointment (and poop)... DKs are supposed to bring fire and fury to the battlefield... but is just bringing feces...

Forget "L2P", you need to L2Read. (I'm only going to address your first point because that's where I stopped reading — you made it pretty clear that you aren't interested in debating in good-faith.)

First off, you said that it was my "opinion that DKs have "the best defenses in game" (which is false."

My full statement was actually:

Langeston wrote: »

they have some of (if not the) best defenses in the game

Meaning: if they don't have the best defenses in the game, they have "some of the best." Putting aside the fact that you selectively quoted me in a misleading way, I don't think anyone would [honestly] dispute that DKs have among the best defenses in the game.

Moving on, we have this interesting passage:

Xvorg wrote: »

I don't have problems killing dks in other classes (except mageblade), so that's my question, isn't a L2P issue?"

Again, did you even bother to read my post? I said:

Langeston wrote: »

If you want to see what a truly weak class plays like, try a few high MMR BGs as a magblade. Every DK main I know that has one lasts all of about 2 matches on it before switching right back to their "weak" DK.

You yourself said in an earlier post that "as a DK, [you] know all the counters to the class". If you (with your vast wealth of knowledge) are unable to beat DKs on a magblade, you not only didn't refute my statement — you reinforced it. Then, immediately after saying that you're unable to beat DKs on a magblade, you say it's a "L2P" issue when I have the same experience.

You also made the assumption that "It is not based on personal experience, just in a couple of random data" and "So his opinion about DKs is completely dependant on his own performance". I'm not sure where you got either of those from, but it certainly wasn't based on anything I said.

Actually, the only part you did get right was:

Xvorg wrote: »

This guy basically said DKs were crybabies.

If you want to whine about how "sad" the state of your class is, go right ahead. But if you're not even going to try to be honest about what I said, then do me a favor and leave me out of it.

Ok

1- There's not such thing as "some of the best". The best is always one, not a group. Yes, DK has good defenses, does it have anything to do with offense? No, right? @Escorpiao_Noturno can give you a loooong explanation about being a DK survivig zergs and never dying, and killing once in a while. With that said the defense on DKs is basically a combination of options available for all classes. Major ward? Extra Blocking? I mean, is that the super powered defense? C'mon, you can do it better.

Oh, please. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've never said: "that's one of the best _______ I've had," or "he's one of the best _________ that I've ever seen"? I'm sorry, but that is just absurd. Anyone with a shred of integrity that plays the class has no problem admitting that they have an incredibly strong defensive toolkit. I'm not the one that needs to "do it better" here.

2- What I said is that I have no problems killing DKs. On my Mageblade I have more problems but it is possible, not because the DK is strong, but because NB has been overnerfed. In fact if you read my first answer I said this: . Nevertheless, to learn hot to kill other classes you must play those other classes. If you say you have problems killing DKs what could that mean? You don't know the class. You don't know its weak points, neither their strenghts, right? So, how is possible, that you can have an objective opinion in such conditions? Consider that if you wouldn't have problems with Dks, you wouldn't have complained here. You don't complaint about things you know how to deal, do you?
So based on your complaint I can say you have just a couple of hours playing DK, otherwise you will know the mechanics of the class and you will know how to deal with it. You don't have to write a long explanation about that.

If two equally skilled players are doing BGs together against solid teams, one on a Magblade and the other a DK, unless the magblade gets super lucky the DK will have consistently better matches — full stop. Every DK I know (people that are actually honest about the class) agrees with this assessment. They won't even play their magblades anymore (stamblades either, tbh) because it isn't even possible for them to get the same (or even similar) results to what they can achieve on their DKs. The rest of this section is just garbage — I do better than many of them do against DKs when they're on their NBs, even though they know the class way better than I do.

Regarding my opinion on DKs, you have said nothing. That makes me suppose that you are ok with a class with 0 ranged class skills/mechanics and that reinforces my opinion that you pay little attention to the class.

I have said all that I felt I needed to say: queue for a mid to high MMR BG — in almost all cases you'll see that at least a quarter of the players are on DKs — often even more than that. That plus the fact that any player capable of pressing 3 buttons in succession can do well with them is really all you need to know about the class to realize that it's in a much better position than you're trying to make it out to be.

Anyway, I can ask whatever I want for my class to get it under what I consider is balance. Dk is unbalanced. It has some good melee tools but 0 ranged tools. You cannot say that's balance, can you?

You can't just zero in on one aspect of a class like ranged abilities & conclude that the entire class isn't "balanced" because it doesn't completely curb-stomp every other class in every possible category. Did you ever stop to consider the idea that maybe ZOS wants DKs to be limited to close-quarter fights? You already have incredible damage, great healing, shields that make projectiles practically worthless, and one of if not the strongest ultimates in the game. If you seriously think that DKs are underpowered, you're the one that needs to "L2P."

In any case, I'm done with this conversation. You made it clear from the beginning that you weren't interested in being intellectually honest, and continuing further would be a waste of both of our our time.
Regards