Mages fury. Yes or no?

LordGavus · January 2020

I'm messing about with my mag sorc dps build and have noticed that no one seems to use the class execute.

I currently run a non pet, ele weapon spam build, but also use the execute. This gets me 72k on the 21m dummy.

I can understand a pet sorc not using it (bar space), but why do non pet sorcs leave it off?

I'll be testing a bunch of different rotations next time I'm in game to see for myself. But can anyone shed some light on why it seems to be ommited?

iJuacob · January 2020

Isn't it because it got nerfed? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think if you just do your same rotation it does more dps than actually an exacute rotation with fury. Just try them both out and see what gets you more dps I'd say

Royaji · January 2020

Yep, Fury is a DPS loss.

LordGavus · January 2020

Thats what i heard. Well, I'll know for sure in a few hours i guess.

Alienoutlaw · January 2020

only really used in PvP, as a Dps tool for PvE great for solo play but a huge dps loss in group content

Expert · January 2020

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

Joinovikova · January 2020

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

Xvorg · January 2020

Joinovikova wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

hmmm, why?

In PvP its an important part of the sorc burst. Changing it for a spammable will just imply a nerf to frags and curse, and no one wants that.

zvavi · January 2020

I like fury and use it

i mean, it hits harder than the dots (reach/soul trap/daedric pray/degeneration etc) still use frags on proc though, since they hit harder

WuffyCerulei · January 2020

Let’s see if my raid buddy @WrathOfInnos can chime in. He’s a pretty darn good sorc dps.

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

For a straight parse fight (or dummy testing) the Sorc execute is a small DPS loss compared to just slotting Aegis front bar and continuing to use your spammable. It’s close to breaking even with slotting Inner Light front bar (assuming you already have Aegis slotted). That being said, there are fights where it’s worth slotting IMO. Basically anything where you need a lot of burst vs low health enemies (vAS, Lokkestiiz for safer Storm Atros or to skip Cage 1 on the 4th ground phase, even Nahviintaas HM if your group is getting too many meteors). I would not run Mages’ Wrath for fights like Yolnahkriin, Rakkhat, Ra Kotu, or ZMaja.

Edit: I don’t play no-pet very often, but it might be worth using there if you have Bloodthirsty. The main difference here being that you have potentially 2 more bar slots front bar than a single pet build (the pet itself, and Haunting can go back bar while Prey really needs to stay front since it’s cast often enough that Frag procs are important). You could probably get away with something like this:

Front: Ele Weap, Frags, Mage’s Wrath, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Storm Atro

Back: Unstable Wall, Mystic Orb (for trials, Conversion or Spell Sym for dummies), Haunting Curse, Barbed Trap, Boundless Storm, Meteor

Not sure if that’s worth it or not TBH. By moving Haunting back bar you miss out on a Frag proc about every 34s on average, as well as spending about 8% less time on front bar (where you have more set bonuses, a better weapon trait, flame enchant, and better passives on your bar). Should be very close to skipping Mage’s Wrath entirely and just running Haunting front bar, so more a matter of personal preference and whether it helps with a specific fight.

LordGavus · January 2020

Thanks for the comments.
I added magelight to my front bar in place of mages wrath, was basically the same dps as having the execute.

I'll be dropping it for most fights and going to a double pet setup I think, but more testing to be done.

Joinovikova · January 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

hmmm, why?

In PvP its an important part of the sorc burst. Changing it for a spammable will just imply a nerf to frags and curse, and no one wants that.

Mages fury is good only for kills stealing at high mmr now. That reason i not using it on mag sorc i prefer to use dot or debuff now (hopefully have something better in class tool kit.) to have more overall dmg and be more usefull in team play. Its more fun then spam fury and hope for some kill steal.

BNOC · January 2020

Xvorg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

hmmm, why?

In PvP its an important part of the sorc burst. Changing it for a spammable will just imply a nerf to frags and curse, and no one wants that.

It's more like Radiant, it's an important part of the class burst, when it's being played by a noob.

Strong sorcs don't rely on that and haven't for a long time but kill stealers and zerlings do.

Dagoth_Rac · January 2020

The fact that it does not kick in until boss is at 20% health and that damage does not scale up any higher as boss health gets lower really hurts it in PvE. Not to mention the whole "anti-execute" design (Twilight Tormentor, Amplitude passive) of Sorcerer kind of actively works against Mages Fury. I think magsorc DPS is OK in PvE so I am not sure changing Mages Fury is worth it (probably just lead to a buff/nerf cycle where magsorc bounces between overpowered and worthless). But, yeah, Mages Fury is one of the least exciting executes in game.

Stibbons · January 2020

Fire and forget finisher. OP ass hell and needs balancing.

CompM4s · January 2020

Throw bloodthirsty on and no need for execute

idk · January 2020

iJuacob wrote: »

Isn't it because it got nerfed? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think if you just do your same rotation it does more dps than actually an exacute rotation with fury. Just try them both out and see what gets you more dps I'd say

Pretty much this. Heck, even years ago some top dps droped it form their bar because it was not an increase in dps for them.

It probably help some players. What it comes down to is if it increases your dps use it. If not do not.

Iskiab · January 2020

BNOC wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

hmmm, why?

In PvP its an important part of the sorc burst. Changing it for a spammable will just imply a nerf to frags and curse, and no one wants that.

It's more like Radiant, it's an important part of the class burst, when it's being played by a noob.

Strong sorcs don't rely on that and haven't for a long time but kill stealers and zerlings do.

This is sarcastic right? It’s hard to tell. In pvp I can’t see a magsorc not using it.

InaMoonlight · January 2020

Very efficient, one of the more useful skills, your class has it, the others don't (and will wail about it), but they have other things, use the tools in your bag

InaMoonlight · January 2020

And I'm talking pvp and bosses. PvP get hit by that, and you kinda have to find a way out of it, or most likely die at 20% health

It's VERY hated!

You're all like EH I still have like 40% left, I'll make it with a heal and invis pot/LoS, and if you do not remove it... well.... Sorc does a burst and gets you below the 20% and with the right setup, you're a goner

Expert · January 2020

Say if you have 30k+ health and execute range is 20%. 20% of 30k is 6k health, our executes will generally hit for 4-5k so you have plenty of time to roll dodge rapidly and heal up passively through Rapid Regen, Vigor, or class heals. Kinda wish our execute would detonate at 25% hp since we lost implosion which was our backup execute. We could use maybe a little extra damage since the game has been paving a road map for tanks to thrive.

They'd only buff 2h execute to finish people off, but magsorc doesn't have the damage scaling as stamina does.

SJD_Phoenix · January 2020

In pvp, when used as part of a burst combo it works nicely.

As a pure excecute to weave when attacking someone under 20% it’s ass.

FrancisCrawford · January 2020

Besides what's been said already, the magicka return of Endless Fury doesn't seem as impressive as it used to. The destro staff passive does something similar, Dark Conversion is sort of OK again (I think -- it's not something I ever find bar space for) and also works in boss fights, and Consuming Trap provides even better trash-kill magicka return while also being somewhat useful against bosses.

Ysbriel · January 2020

The only issue i’ve had with that skill in regards of “dps loss” has been the skill being casted and not actually land or hit a target in some other direction other than the aiming at

Xvorg · January 2020

BNOC wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

hmmm, why?

In PvP its an important part of the sorc burst. Changing it for a spammable will just imply a nerf to frags and curse, and no one wants that.

It's more like Radiant, it's an important part of the class burst, when it's being played by a noob.

Strong sorcs don't rely on that and haven't for a long time but kill stealers and zerlings do.

Not everyone who plays the way you consider skillful is skillful. Not everyone that plays as a noob is, in fact, a noob. Stating that all good sorcs do not use their class execute seems to be kind of short sighted.

Skill in this game has nothing to do with popular preferences.

Soundinfinite · January 2020

I believe it comes down to Pet vs Non-pet builds.

A Pet Built Sorcerer has limited bar space, and thus it is the least effective skill to drop as it only functions in the last 1/5th of the fight (20% health of enemy or less) compared to other executes that function for the last Half (50% health) or last 1/4th (25% health). Thus using bloodthirsty rings and keeping your rotation ends up netting better results because you need the bar slot for your pets and anything else you drop sacrifices damage output for the other 4/5ths of the battle. Thus, in the end the loss of dps for the first 4/5th isn't made up by its gains in the last 1/5th of the battle and results in lower dps.

However, in a Non-Pet Built Sorcerer Endless Fury/Mages Wrath is just as effective as any other execute in the game. Since you don't have pets you do not need the bar space and thus can slot it without sacrificing any damage output for the other 4/5ths of the battle. Thus in the last 1/5th you will result in a DPS gain using it.

Alquast (Currently the Games Leading Meta Build Maker) hasn't posted a true Non-Pet Sorc build in years, or simply since bloodthirsty was introduced. His Pet-Sorc builds use 2 pets and his Non-Pet builds still use at least 1 pet...which I have never understood being called a non-pet build. Thus bar space is always cramped and the skill dropped. Now he doesn't even have a Non-Pet build as an option as his builds are now Pet-Sorc Heavy Attack Build or a Pet-Sorc Normal Build.

With this said, Non-Pet Sorcs have always been and remain at a disadvantage vs their Pet-Built counterpart and are not really considered End Game builds because a Non-Pet Sorc always nets a lower DPS than a Pet-Sorc in the hands of experienced players.

Because of this, Mages Wrath/Endless Fury has been trashed and dumped as a skill because the highest DPS is with a Pet-Sorc and a Pet-Sorc loses dps using the skill because of bar space.

However, I hate pets, and my Sorc is a Non-Pet and I do use Endless Fury on it. In every build I've tried and every bar make-up Ive tried, dropping Endless Fury from my Non-Pet build causes me to lose DPS. On average I gain around 5k dps on parses in the last 20%-25% of the parse and Endless Fury is normally around my 4th-5th highest damage output on my Fight Report.

So it isn't a trash skill, and it is usable. But your 72k DPS is starting to hit (You can still squeeze out a little more DPS) the very Maximum a Non-Pet build can reach and a Pet-Sorc will just simply be able to go higher. All while not using the skill.

Tannus15 · January 2020

I'm running wrath with 2 pets and 2 blood thirsty

To me it's all about how the boss fights work. Almost every boss loads more and more mechanics as the fight progresses and the last 25% is where it really matters.

It's one of the reasons the sorc passive Amplitude isn't as good as it appears. Sure, you can dump a destro ult at the start for a nice burn, but until blood thirsty kicks in you get progressively weaker as the fight gets progressively harder.
Sure, it's all the same on a dummy parse, but that's not how trials work.

Lord-Otto · January 2020

Fury is very inefficient.

In PvE fights, the threshold and damage are really bad compared to other executes. Thus it is better to improve your performance on the much longer previous 80%. This only gets clearer the more executes and bloodthirsty your group uses to shorten the already short execute phase even more. It's a dps loss in the long run, as burn phases are just too short.
There is one exception, if your group is struggling specifically with the last boss phase but can get to it just fine. Then shortening the burn phase at all costs is acceptable.

In PvP it's lousy as an actual execute. Again, with pitiful threshold and damage. It's not uncommon to see an enemy survive it. But even worse, since ZOS changed the animation for the ooompfteenth time, it takes too long to actually register. Your enemy will often heal with a HoT out of execute before the explosion happens. And then you hit your enemy with a third of a spammable's damage. You're actually losing pressure that way.
It is only good if you combine it with Curse and know your target is squishy enough to reach execute range by the time Curse explodes. This is also true for other players hitting the target. It's about more burst potential.
In conclusion, not worth it for small scale and duels with rather tanky enemies. Useful in larger group fights.

KBKB · January 2020

Skill isn't dead in PvP it's a part of the sorc 'pop' combo. It's taken nerfs but it works like a hand in a glove with curse and the 4 second stick on if you are only succeeding in moving their HP bar rapidly up and down it can be enough to get you over the line.

Joy_Division · January 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Mages Fury / Endless Fury doesn't do as much damage as the 2 handed execute and it's very easy to dodge roll and mitigate the usefulness of the skill. When my Endless fury goes off, it hits typically 4-5k dmg, but when u use a 2h execute it hits for 8k+ damage. I've done a 26k 2 handed execute on a player, but my mages fury never hits harder than 6k max. Not many people run it because it's not reliable and not efficient in executing, so we prefer using other skills.

Maybe ZOS combat team will take a look into sorc execute and reconsider it? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks

I vote for remove Mages fury. and give sorc some decent spamable or DOT.

hmmm, why?

In PvP its an important part of the sorc burst. Changing it for a spammable will just imply a nerf to frags and curse, and no one wants that.

It's more like Radiant, it's an important part of the class burst, when it's being played by a noob.

Strong sorcs don't rely on that and haven't for a long time but kill stealers and zerlings do.

This is sarcastic right? It’s hard to tell. In pvp I can’t see a magsorc not using it.

Ever since BGs came out with its silly scoring system, this skill has been way overrated by PvPers. The only time when it was standard on a sorc bar was when ZOS removed the travel time of the lightning stroke so it was neigh undodgeable and instantly killed you the nanosecond you dipped under 20%. This got changed quite a while ago (Wolfhunter IIRC) because ZOS considered this a bug. Now it's just a low damage execute that is probably better replaced with something like Rapid Regeneration.

When Fury did not work as I described above, many of the best sorcs didn't use it. That's true right now, one of the best sorcs on EU doesn't think it's worth slotting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6mMFNvcgcI

The person you are quoting is correct. Like Radiant Destruction, the skill is pretty good spamming behind 10 friends at some poor soul getting zerged down. However, a lot of good sorcs who totally rely on themselves to survive don't slot it. Which I think is pretty strong statement just how meh this skill is PvE and PvP.