this undaunted event has a rise in fake healers.

SidraWillowsky · January 2020

Shepoffire wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Unless the group is totally hopless normal dungeons don't need healers, at least in my experience. I ran some dungeons on my low level toons with dps only groups and we managed just fine as long as we kept together and followed the mechanics.

It's not up to you to decide what a pug groups needs or doesn't need though...

ETA that if I'm grouped with a blatant fake healer who's not even trying, I'll vote to kick. If the vote doesn't go through, I'll go into turtle mode where I slot all of my self-heals and then throw out a light attack every so often. Gonna waste my time with your fake healer because you've made the unilateral decision that pug groups don't need a healer? I'll waste yours too by not DPSing.

This is why I think pve is more toxic than pvp lol. Well I guess at this point a dungeon is pvp

Eeeeexcept that a majority of these jerks have been Pvpers whose names I've recognized. One of them had named a keep after a GM of mine that insinuated that he was a ***. Class act, that one.

Agenericname · January 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Taemiru wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

Have you ever played WOW or any moba or shooter? I mean... sure if your big gaming experience is some "happy farmer" the community might seem toxic, but judging by opinions from people who came to ESO from other MMO games it got one of the most noob friendly communities.

Pauls wrote: »

Isnt it way better when players learn through playing instead of blindly copying from youtube or other sites? Especially when it comes to pvp, where build should be optimised for its user, and not everything what some sort of streamers use fits every player. Or you want more youtube and alcast worshippers who just follow their idols without having their own opinion?

What is it with all those Alcas haters? The guy got tons of builds for every situation and a gear list of BIS to less optimal but easy to get.
Making builds is very similar to learning how to draw(or learn some new skill/science, well most of theoretical learning), at first you take references from people that are better and then you become a craftsman that maybe is not original but can do things good or you become an artist and make something new. You don't need to reinvent the wheel when its already done for you.Hell, i know many endgame players that are in top leaderboards and great at theory crafting, most of them started to learn by looking at someone else and still look for things that other good players are doing because there is so many things about this game that one person can't possible explore all by itself.

Alcast and the other theorycrafters who provide accessible builds are a great resource for the community and provide a good leg up for players who need builds that work or builds that fit the current meta.

Its just important to keep a few things in mind when using pre-made builds.

A "meta" build, gear, or rotation will not replace player skill and experience. You have got to put in the practice to get good with it, whether that's time in front of the practice dummy or time fighting other players in PVP.

A "non-meta" build, class, gear, or rotation is not necessarily incapable of completing content or being competitive. PVP has a huge range of viable builds assuming the player using it knows how to play that build. PVE also has a lot of sets/builds that are slightly-less-good-than-the-meta, but still perfectly viable.

Keep those two things in mind and its easier to avoid most of the toxicity that can happen when discussing builds and theory crafting.

When every involved is aware of this, the potential for toxicity is lessened.

NordSwordnBoard · January 2020

...

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Unless the group is totally hopless normal dungeons don't need healers, at least in my experience. I ran some dungeons on my low level toons with dps only groups and we managed just fine as long as we kept together and followed the mechanics.

It's not up to you to decide what a pug groups needs or doesn't need though...

ETA that if I'm grouped with a blatant fake healer who's not even trying, I'll vote to kick. If the vote doesn't go through, I'll go into turtle mode where I slot all of my self-heals and then throw out a light attack every so often. Gonna waste my time with your fake healer because you've made the unilateral decision that pug groups don't need a healer? I'll waste yours too by not DPSing.

This is why I think pve is more toxic than pvp lol. Well I guess at this point a dungeon is pvp

Eeeeexcept that a majority of these jerks have been Pvpers whose names I've recognized. One of them had named a keep after a GM of mine that insinuated that he was a ***. Class act, that one.

The point being made is you stooped to the level of the people you were complaining about. You're wasting the time of the other two players because of your issues with one other player.

It's obviously not the player's personality that causes toxic behavior, it's their choice of content. How else could the tribalism of PvE vs PvP be so strong in this game?

Runefang · January 2020

Sorry I was told a healer just needs to bring a heal so I slotted Earthgore.

Royaji · January 2020

Maybe if the average DPS in PUGs wasn't abysmal (pretty sure it won't even break five digits) there would be more real healers and tanks in queue and fake healers and tanks wouldn't be such an issue.

We could probably solve a lot more by kicking fake DDs and not fake tanks/healers.

So blame all the people who claim that "fake DD" is not a thing. As it is, PUGs deserve their fake tanks and healers.

Odovacar · January 2020

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Shot through the heart,
Fake healer to blame
They give healers
A bad name, bad name

You play your part,
But they play "their way"
They don't respect
The role game, role game

^^^^ This is gold!

jircris11 · January 2020

My issue is when dps queue as tank or healer but then dps. Don't pick a freaking role you can't fill. You want shorter wait times? Then ACTUALLY play a tank or healer. Don't increase our wait time because of your own stupidity and need go see big dmg numbers to feel acomplished.

Runefang · January 2020

jircris11 wrote: »

My issue is when dps queue as tank or healer but then dps. Don't pick a freaking role you can't fill. You want shorter wait times? Then ACTUALLY play a tank or healer. Don't increase our wait time because of your own stupidity and need go see big dmg numbers to feel acomplished.

My issue is when you go full heal or tank and you look at the total group dps realising you can do more than that on your own.

KillsAllElves · January 2020

All veteran dungeons can be ran with 3 dps 1 tank. Bad players will be bad players. Pro tip- dont use the group finder.

If youre running normal dungeons or veteran base game dungeons and you need a healer youre garbage!

Btw its hard to find a group as a dps in the group finder when que'd as dps.

DBZVelena · January 2020

Anybody complaining about fake tanks and fake healers should roll one themselves. See how they like it.
It's simple math, there are more players that play DD than Tank and healer combined.
Only solution is to do something about it instead of complaining.

bmnoble · January 2020

I keep a resto back bar on my tank, so long as the DPS don't run off or do stupid things I tend to keep them alive while tanking and provide the occasional orb to give them resources.

Tanking still takes priority though but I got sick of having dead DPS not doing any damage due to the healer more often than not being said dead DPS.

DBZVelena · January 2020

bmnoble wrote: »

I keep a resto back bar on my tank, so long as the DPS don't run off or do stupid things I tend to keep them alive while tanking and provide the occasional orb to give them resources.

Tanking still takes priority though but I got sick of having dead DPS not doing any damage due to the healer more often than not being said dead DPS.

Now this is a good compromise. Care to share your build? Might inspire some people.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · January 2020

DBZVelena wrote: »

Anybody complaining about fake tanks and fake healers should roll one themselves. See how they like it.
It's simple math, there are more players that play DD than Tank and healer combined.
Only solution is to do something about it instead of complaining.

I agree and that's exactly what I did. There's a reason my nightblade tank is a Redguard. All things considered though it works.

Iskiab · January 2020

KillsAllElves wrote: »

All veteran dungeons can be ran with 3 dps 1 tank. Bad players will be bad players. Pro tip- dont use the group finder.

If youre running normal dungeons or veteran base game dungeons and you need a healer youre garbage!

Btw its hard to find a group as a dps in the group finder when que'd as dps.

So what? There isn’t enough healing to be done in a normal or easy vet for a full healer to be required, but you still need to be able to heal if it’s required.

My alt wears mother’s sorrow and master architect and can pull 60%+ of the group’s dps while healing. That doesn’t mean I’d go double destro, resto/lightning all the way, so if it’s required I heal.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

Yes. And if anything, real tanks are a lot more rare, they deserve more power just because they are willing to take on this role.

LadyNalcarya · January 2020

Well, there's 2 things to consider imo:

1) Full healers are not really needed for pretty much anything except trials and some dlc hardmodes. I used to be a healer main, but I wouldn't do random normal as a healer because it's kinda pointless.

2) Average dps is so bad that if you pug, you pretty much have to expect that you'll have to solo the dungeon. Doing so as a dd is much easier than as a full healer, and is pretty much impossible as a tank. I suspect that it's one of the reasons why there's not enough real tanks and healers in group finder.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

This is just your definition, not an objective fact accepted by everyone. If anything define what is bare minimum to be a real dps is not all that important.

Identify what is average is a lot more important. Due to the lack of tanks. It’s comes down to simple supply and demand. Tanks can and should be picky.

A bare minimum tank can just use zone chat and demand average or better dps. Form your own group in theory should work, except in reality 1/4 of the ppl respond lie about their dps.

Bobby_V_Rockit · January 2020

I main a healer, but I keep getting stuck with awful DD characters, so much so I just flat out refused to use any damage abilities. I just used heals and elemental drain. Dungeon took forever, I watched bosses health tick down 1k at a time lol

I didnt realise fake DD’s were actually a thing, but hey, here we are

VaranisArano · January 2020

DBZVelena wrote: »

Anybody complaining about fake tanks and fake healers should roll one themselves. See how they like it.
It's simple math, there are more players that play DD than Tank and healer combined.
Only solution is to do something about it instead of complaining.

This particular glib answer always makes me chuckle.

"Don't complain. Just play a real healer!"
"I do. That's when I get fake tanks who expect me to be A-Okay with face tanking the untaunted boss (while still healing them and the group plus buffs and damage, natch) so they can admire their high DPS and brag about how they are the ones "carrying" the group."

"Well...then play a real tank if you want to complain!"
"I usually do play one of the my tanks. Then I get the fake healers who want to rush ahead and nearly die to mobs in an attempt to admire their high DPS without caring that the other DDs would probably do better DPS if they weren't having to be almost completely self-sufficient. Also, god forbid I want a break and decide to play my healer for once."

"Well...well, just don't use Groupfinder to find you a random group, you fool! You don't know what you'll get."
"Yeah, I can't imagine why I expected to get a group with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 damage dealers. Its not like Groupfinder requires you to choose only 1 specific role or anything, right?"

Not all complaining players are Damage Dealers. Some of us complain because we actually DO play tanks and healers and find it annoying when those roles are filled by lazy liars who refuse to do even the most basic part of the role they queued up for merely so they can admire their high DPS without a care for the inconvenience they cause anyone else in the group. I may not NEED a real tank or healer depending on the role I'm not playing, but I sure do appreciate not having to do their job on top of my own.

Noxeee · January 2020

Yep.

This undaunted event has also given rise to bad DPS queuing for vets. I'm 265 CP, doing anywhere between 60 to 70% of total group DPS and this includes being paired with 810 CP players. Vet dungeons are taking forever.

People, please.

Contaminate · January 2020

My real healer tosses on five damage abilities because there’s no point healing 100% hp teammates. I’ll slap 10-15k dps onto the group and have buffs up at all times.

Of course people still run out of all the healing when one baby add is chasing them and then they die, but I’m not gonna enable stupidity so they can perish.

VaranisArano · January 2020

DBZVelena wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

I keep a resto back bar on my tank, so long as the DPS don't run off or do stupid things I tend to keep them alive while tanking and provide the occasional orb to give them resources.

Tanking still takes priority though but I got sick of having dead DPS not doing any damage due to the healer more often than not being said dead DPS.

Now this is a good compromise. Care to share your build? Might inspire some people.

At the Normal dungeon level, its not hard to stick a taunt or a resto staff on a DD build and still do perfectly adequate DPS.

Stamina Tank:
Low effort: equip Inner Fire/Inner Beast from Undaunted. Taunt the boss every 15 seconds while otherwise continuing your normal rotation except for when you need to block, interrupt, or follow mechanics.
More effort: swap one of your weapons for One Hand and Shield, using Puncture as your taunt and crowd control on mobs.

Magicka Tank:
Low Effort: Equip Inner Fire from Undaunted as above. If you are Squishy McSquisherson, use a damage shield too.
If you want to change things up, use an Ice Staff.

In both cases, you (general you) won't do your normal amount of DPS because you'll be dealing with the boss's attacks. On the other hand, you'll easily be doing more than enough to beat the boss, plus making it easier for your DDs to focus on killing rather than chasing the boss.

Stamina Healer:
This one is a lot harder depending on your class. If your class has group heals, use them. If your class doesn't have group heals, you are going to have to rely on the HOT from Vigor/Echoing Vigor. Vigor alone is going to be hard to use, so make sure you weave it into your rotation proactively so your group members are getting at least some constant heals. You'll struggle with bosses who do burst damage or party members who aren't self-sufficient.
(I wouldn't really recommend doing a Vigor-only stam healer. Stam Healer really needs class skills to make it work well unless you know ahead of time that your group will be mostly self-sufficient, i.e. you aren't running with randoms.)

Magicka Healer:
Low effort: If your class has group heals, just weave it into your rotation. Templar and Sorc have it easiest with their burst heals.
More effort: replace one of your weapons with a resto staff. Healing Springs and Regeneration are great HOTs when used proactively. Combat Prayer is your burst heal. Maybe even put Elemental Drain on your destro bar or use Orbs from Undaunted.

Again, you won't be doing quite as much damage as you might as a pure DD, but many good healers manage to pull good DPS while also healing and buffing the group. So you can do it too.

At the level of normal dungeons, DDs can easily adjust to play as a basic tank or healer very easily. I've been the "DD tank with a taunt" on Stam Sorc, StamDK, Stam Warden, Mag Sorc, MagDK, MagBlade and MagPlar. I've been the "DD with heals" on MagWarden, MagBlade, MagDK, and MagSorc.

All it takes is being willing to adjust your build a little bit to actually fill the role you queue up for...and the willingness to do a little less than your usual DPS in favor of better supporting your random groupmates by actually filling the role you queued up for.

Strider__Roshin · January 2020

Fake healers sounds like a blessing. I hated getting actually healers since the extra dps makes the run quicker.

FrancisCrawford · January 2020

Runefang wrote: »

Sorry I was told a healer just needs to bring a heal so I slotted Earthgore.

Earthgore plus an always-on HoT to proc it can be all the healing a group needs.

FrancisCrawford · January 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

At the level of normal dungeons, DDs can easily adjust to play as a basic tank or healer very easily. I've been the "DD tank with a taunt" on Stam Sorc, StamDK, Stam Warden, Mag Sorc, MagDK, MagBlade and MagPlar. I've been the "DD with heals" on MagWarden, MagBlade, MagDK, and MagSorc.

I've PUGged DLC dungeons healing on five classes, and CoH2/CoA2 on the sixth.

Kelces · January 2020

It seems, it's always the same response one gets from opening a thread like this: "hey, I did this with only dps!" or "I can solo vet Dungeons!" etc.

I play every role and I get those statements and I managed to do similar things and it can be a nice challenge, but that's not the point of this game.

Teamplay, which is what both the tank and healer role are about, compared to DPS is discouraged on a wide basis. So much for PvE not being problematic, or even toxic at times. I think, that speaks volumes...

LadyNalcarya · January 2020

Kelces wrote: »

It seems, it's always the same response one gets from opening a thread like this: "hey, I did this with only dps!" or "I can solo vet Dungeons!" etc.

I play every role and I get those statements and I managed to do similar things and it can be a nice challenge, but that's not the point of this game.

Teamplay, which is what both the tank and healer role are about, compared to DPS is discouraged on a wide basis. So much for PvE not being problematic, or even toxic at times. I think, that speaks volumes...

I wouldn't say that teamplay is discouraged, it is actually required for dlc content.
It's just hard to find it in pugs.

O_LYKOS · January 2020

Anything that requires doing dungeons attracts fake healers and tanks, nothing new. Just have to accept it and move on

MartiniDaniels · January 2020

If fake healer has good dps, I'm ok with him. If not then kick, if kick failed, I just leave PUG, I have zero interest to work while somebody is slacking no matter even if dungeon is easy one.

BeamsForDemacia · January 2020

then u have to leave every second dungeon cuz u will get a fake dd