this undaunted event has a rise in fake healers.

cheifsoap · January 2020

TirantLoBlanch wrote: »

Can SOME of the non dlc dungepns be done ,and may be better with 3 DPS+ a tankj.?
...

You need to breathe and walk away from the game before you break your TV/monitor. Relax

Protoavis73 · January 2020

Ah so thats why I had problems getting into a group as a proper healer via dungeon finder.
Logged into my DD and did vFG1 hm solo instead, so (for that dungeon) no healer, tank or other dd was necessary.

Its good to see the dungeon finder doesn't break completely with this event but it can still take a long time, even as a healer or tank.
But you're all right, for the easier normal dungeons you don't need a healer, but with a pug you never know what you get and it will be easier with a healer.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · January 2020

KittyHazWares wrote: »

You don’t need a healer for non-dlc dungeons, ESPECIALLY if it’s a normal dungeon. If you need one on normal there’s something very wrong.

With a good group, sure. When I run a random normal dungeon with reasonably experienced friends, I usually don't use the healing skills much, if at all, unless we hit a DLC dungeon, in which case at least some heals may be in order. I deal damage instead, while also buffing the group and debuffing the enemies to speed up the fights, instead of trying (and failing) to match a proper damage dealer build in terms of raw dps numbers.

However, not everyone is good at playing the game. Some are still learning, some never learn. There is nothing "very wrong" with being an unskilled player and still trying to get through a normal dungeon. The game is not made for experts only. In fact, a large part of the content is obviously made to give a fighting chance to unskilled players, and I see quite a lot of those. I have definitely made myself useful as a healer in pugs for normal dungeons, even in places like FG1 which are laughably easy for seasoned players.

Do I enjoy healing clueless DDs with 16k HP who stand in red, aggro the boss and fail to block? In a strange way, yes. It's rewarding to make the group as a whole able to face bigger challenges than they would be able to take on alone, at their skill level, and possibly suggest some ways for them to improve if they are willing to listen and learn. By making the game enjoyable for others, I am enjoying myself as well.

I can certainly enjoy a veteran hard mode run with a group of skilled friends, but I don't rage over random people needing my healing services in a normal non-DLC dungeon, if that is what I signed up to do. Expecting a designated healer to be able and willing to heal the group, if needed, is perfectly reasonable.

idk · January 2020

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

Pauls · January 2020

Mag DK with rapid regen, fragmented shield and damaging orbs on back bar, ele drain on front. I'm your healer for these non-dlc vet dungeons

Danikat · January 2020

Michae wrote: »

Unless the group is totally hopless normal dungeons don't need healers, at least in my experience. I ran some dungeons on my low level toons with dps only groups and we managed just fine as long as we kept together and followed the mechanics.

Agreed. I queue as a healer on my warden (who can fill the role) and often find I spend more time acting as a 3rd DD and only occasionally need to switch to restro staff and throw down an AoE heal or use a targeted heal on one person. If I can keep the whole group alive with occasional use of 2 skills it seems silly not to do damage the rest of the time. Otherwise I'm just standing there hoping one of them messes up.

I'm sure there's more I can and should be doing if we were going through vet dungeons or trials, but in normal mode having 1/4 of your party entirely devoting to healing seems excessive.

Having said that I also agree that if you queue as a healer you should be willing and able to do heal the rest of the party, even if only occasionally.

zvavi · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

A lot of people say " you dont need healers for X because self heal" Just imagine if if we lived in a world where DPS focused on DPS and healers focused on healing, and...and... tanks focused on tanking?

Then when people got to harder content they would have learned to ... to.... work.as.a.team. instead of " 4 solo dudes soloing a dungeon together separately. And...and people who are trying to learn to heal and who are trying to learn to tank and who are trying to learn to dps as part of a group...

CAN ACTUALLY LEARN! and then we dont have to whine about them on the forums later about how they failed to "git gud" for our toxic vet dungeon pugs.

I healed several dungeons last night on normal and in a few of them i was doing 40 to 60% of the heals as the healer. Meanwhile i was doing 30% of the dps because i had to pick up the slack of the people who were fricking healing instead of killing stuff.

If only we all did our proper roles in a dungeon....

We have different opinions on the matter, especially the part where the group dps is low because they self heal. Also on my dungeon tank guess what i am focused on? Healing and resources for group.

cheifsoap · January 2020

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

idk · January 2020

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

amapola76 · January 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ETA that if I'm grouped with a blatant fake healer who's not even trying, I'll vote to kick. If the vote doesn't go through, I'll go into turtle mode

Here's the problem I have with setting this up as a reasonable standard of behavior: you may have a very reasonable interpretation of what it means to be a "blatant fake healer." (Based on the kind of person you seem to be from your posts, I'm guessing that's the case, and that you personally don't over-use this approach.)

Lots of other people clearly don't.

So it makes me uncomfortable that it would become a social norm to "kick fake healers" right off the bat, when fake means so many different things to so many different people... some fair, some not.

Ingenon · January 2020

So far this event I have healed two normal PUG dungeons with my templar healer. And spent most of both dungeons doing DPS with my back bar lightning staff. No wipes, we finished quickly, those two PUG groups didn't need much healing. I kept a HOT running, and launched orbs, and then back to the lightning staff. It's all good ...

jircris11 · January 2020

And fake tanks lol.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

The low output dps are way worse

Anotherone773 · January 2020

zvavi wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

A lot of people say " you dont need healers for X because self heal" Just imagine if if we lived in a world where DPS focused on DPS and healers focused on healing, and...and... tanks focused on tanking?

Then when people got to harder content they would have learned to ... to.... work.as.a.team. instead of " 4 solo dudes soloing a dungeon together separately. And...and people who are trying to learn to heal and who are trying to learn to tank and who are trying to learn to dps as part of a group...

CAN ACTUALLY LEARN! and then we dont have to whine about them on the forums later about how they failed to "git gud" for our toxic vet dungeon pugs.

I healed several dungeons last night on normal and in a few of them i was doing 40 to 60% of the heals as the healer. Meanwhile i was doing 30% of the dps because i had to pick up the slack of the people who were fricking healing instead of killing stuff.

If only we all did our proper roles in a dungeon....

We have different opinions on the matter, especially the part where the group dps is low because they self heal. Also on my dungeon tank guess what i am focused on? Healing and resources for group.

Yes my opinion is roles are there for a reason. And your opinion is that roles are more of a gentle suggestion?

I just got done tanking FG1 on a level 40 DK. The healer was decent.. i didnt die. I did 40-60% of the damage again with sword and board. I am pretty sure the healer was doing at least a third of the damage. The two dps were horrible and around level 40 as well. The healer was busy keeping one alive most of the time who seemed to have about 4k hp and im pretty sure was naked but had a costume on to hide it. The other dps im not for sure if they actually participated all that much.

The healer and i could have stuck to our roles and forced the dps to git gud. We could have helped them improve, but we didnt. Normal dungeons are gravy and you dont need a tank or healer, tbh.We are just going to pass them right on up the ladder to DLCs and then to vet dungeons.

Then all the condescending "git gud" peeps who whine and moan about people not learning to do DPS HEAL TANK can be bitter over it.

Those "easy" dungeons are their to help people learn how to perform a specific role in a group. We( all of us) enable them with carries and kicks and we pay for it later when we really have to work and even struggle to carry on the harder content. Then we get annoyed because something takes to long or because we cant seem to get people who can do the content or we cant even get people who will attempt the content because we have already created a toxic environment for them with bitterness about them not going to ESO school of end game.

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

This community is just extremely lazy and selfish when it comes to new players and they dont realize they cut off their nose in spite of their face. So lets keep ignoring roles and game mechanics and carrying everyone through dungeons so they dont learn anything. Ill buy us a box of Kleenex for when they hit vet dungeons and do 6k dps.

DreamsUnderStars · January 2020

I went into Darkshade 2 yesterday as DPS with guildies and I think they assumed it would be an easy run, most of them were 160cp+ and I was 107. Ended up main-healing for half of it.

zvavi · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

A lot of people say " you dont need healers for X because self heal" Just imagine if if we lived in a world where DPS focused on DPS and healers focused on healing, and...and... tanks focused on tanking?

Then when people got to harder content they would have learned to ... to.... work.as.a.team. instead of " 4 solo dudes soloing a dungeon together separately. And...and people who are trying to learn to heal and who are trying to learn to tank and who are trying to learn to dps as part of a group...

CAN ACTUALLY LEARN! and then we dont have to whine about them on the forums later about how they failed to "git gud" for our toxic vet dungeon pugs.

I healed several dungeons last night on normal and in a few of them i was doing 40 to 60% of the heals as the healer. Meanwhile i was doing 30% of the dps because i had to pick up the slack of the people who were fricking healing instead of killing stuff.

If only we all did our proper roles in a dungeon....

We have different opinions on the matter, especially the part where the group dps is low because they self heal. Also on my dungeon tank guess what i am focused on? Healing and resources for group.

Yes my opinion is roles are there for a reason. And your opinion is that roles are more of a gentle suggestion?

I just got done tanking FG1 on a level 40 DK. The healer was decent.. i didnt die. I did 40-60% of the damage again with sword and board. I am pretty sure the healer was doing at least a third of the damage. The two dps were horrible and around level 40 as well. The healer was busy keeping one alive most of the time who seemed to have about 4k hp and im pretty sure was naked but had a costume on to hide it. The other dps im not for sure if they actually participated all that much.

The healer and i could have stuck to our roles and forced the dps to git gud. We could have helped them improve, but we didnt. Normal dungeons are gravy and you dont need a tank or healer, tbh.We are just going to pass them right on up the ladder to DLCs and then to vet dungeons.

Then all the condescending "git gud" peeps who whine and moan about people not learning to do DPS HEAL TANK can be bitter over it.

Those "easy" dungeons are their to help people learn how to perform a specific role in a group. We( all of us) enable them with carries and kicks and we pay for it later when we really have to work and even struggle to carry on the harder content. Then we get annoyed because something takes to long or because we cant seem to get people who can do the content or we cant even get people who will attempt the content because we have already created a toxic environment for them with bitterness about them not going to ESO school of end game.

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

This community is just extremely lazy and selfish when it comes to new players and they dont realize they cut off their nose in spite of their face. So lets keep ignoring roles and game mechanics and carrying everyone through dungeons so they dont learn anything. Ill buy us a box of Kleenex for when they hit vet dungeons and do 6k dps.

Speak for yourself i pug vDLC a lot and and two days ago i completed vSCP with total noobie group of 2 sub 400 cp and 1 600 cp that none of them knew mechanics. It took a bit longer but it was more fun. As i said, lets agree to disagree. Since my opinion is basically that every player needs to bring as much as he can to the group, with the base line of his role.

L_Nici · January 2020

Oh well, as long as it is just normal dungeons the roles doesn't matter at all. I have done Falkreath with 2 incompetent randoms and a friend and we just destroyed everything with neither a tank nor a healer.

Kelces · January 2020

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

It wouldn't surprise me, if a good portion of them are just frustrated and dedicated (pure) healers, who got fed up of hearing the questions about how much damage they could provide for a 4 player or trial group.

Edit: Like recently for example, I got asked "where is ele drain, healer?"...the answer of those "fake healers" mentioned would probably be like: "There you go, I got it on BOTH bars!"

Pauls · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

Isnt it way better when players learn through playing instead of blindly copying from youtube or other sites? Especially when it comes to pvp, where build should be optimised for its user, and not everything what some sort of streamers use fits every player. Or you want more youtube and alcast worshippers who just follow their idols without having their own opinion?

Kelces · January 2020

Pauls wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

Isnt it way better when players learn through playing instead of blindly copying from youtube or other sites? Especially when it comes to pvp, where build should be optimised for its user, and not everything what some sort of streamers use fits every player. Or you want more youtube and alcast worshippers who just follow their idols without having their own opinion?

Agreed, it's almost as if they don't have any creativity. Very predctable...

Goregrinder · January 2020

I mean if you're talking about PUGs, everyone usually has like 1 or 2 healing abilities on their bars anyways. Should be cake even without a healer.

FrancisCrawford · January 2020

When I queue I always queue as a healer. Like others have said, I sometimes enjoy bad groups so that I have some real healing to do.

But even when the group doesn't need much in the way of heals:

I happen to have SPC and not Olorime, so I'm always keeping up a HoT.
I figure it's my job to run Elemental Drain and Orbs/Shards.
Combat Prayer gets a spot on my skillbar that might otherwise go to a stronger/purer heal. If the group is good enough, it's worth casting on cooldown for the buffs ...
... especially because only about half my skills are DPS, so what else am going to do in place of Combat Prayer anyway?

And I run Earthgore, in part because it's exactly the most capable players who tend to go Leroying into trash fights ahead of the tank and have sudden health losses accordingly.

WiseSky · January 2020

The day before the even I went of my crafter and qued up as a tank with a simple taunt for Spindle 2 on normal, our total dps was 7K took us 2 hours to finish, it was fun because I was on my crafter with only 6 skill points in skills rest in crafting doing *** dps. It was quite fun for the 2nd boss since he has a dps check took us 5 wipes !

The next day on my main got a group to farm veteran Spindle 2 for opal pages running from boss to boss took 10 mins.

Both time I knew what I was getting into.

On normal I always que as Tank With taunt, group heals and do 50%+ dps. In the beginning I was queuing on DPS now I can imagine waiting more the 5 mins for PUG.

Best combo for this event is 5 piece Cowards Gear... since you will be doing more running to end boss for boxes then doing dps...

MerguezMan · January 2020

I prefer a dd wearing restoration staff, rather than healer wearing a bow.

But that's personal taste.

SidraWillowsky · January 2020

amapola76 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ETA that if I'm grouped with a blatant fake healer who's not even trying, I'll vote to kick. If the vote doesn't go through, I'll go into turtle mode

Here's the problem I have with setting this up as a reasonable standard of behavior: you may have a very reasonable interpretation of what it means to be a "blatant fake healer." (Based on the kind of person you seem to be from your posts, I'm guessing that's the case, and that you personally don't over-use this approach.)

Lots of other people clearly don't.

So it makes me uncomfortable that it would become a social norm to "kick fake healers" right off the bat, when fake means so many different things to so many different people... some fair, some not.

Oh, I mean, I won't kick straight away. But if I'm getting NO heals and dying a lot, even with my own (not insignificant) healing abilities that I slot AND while not standing in stupid and stuff, I'll first say something and ask them what heals they're using or something like that. If they're rude or don't say anything or make any sort of move to heal, THEN I initiate the vote kick. I definitely sounded like I immediately vote to kick, but I really generally do try to be nice first.

The funny thing is that every single one of the rude fake tanks/healers I've come across have had abysmal DPS as well. If I'm still doing over 50% of the damage with a fake tank or healer in the group and you're (the proverbial you) the DPS who's the fake role, you should probably work more on your DPS so you can actually contribute SOMETHING meaningful to the group.

And yeah, part of my reaction here is that I'm salty about the fact that I, like a good little DPS, have correctly set my role as DPS and patiently waited in the DPS queue. It's really annoying to finally get into a dungeon after having waited for a while to find that the "tank" or "healer" is a DPS who was apparently unable to wait. I could PROBABLY successfully heal a group on my magden DD by using more of my healer skills, but in the end I'm a DPS, not a healer.

Taemiru · January 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

Have you ever played WOW or any moba or shooter? I mean... sure if your big gaming experience is some "happy farmer" the community might seem toxic, but judging by opinions from people who came to ESO from other MMO games it got one of the most noob friendly communities.

Pauls wrote: »

Isnt it way better when players learn through playing instead of blindly copying from youtube or other sites? Especially when it comes to pvp, where build should be optimised for its user, and not everything what some sort of streamers use fits every player. Or you want more youtube and alcast worshippers who just follow their idols without having their own opinion?

What is it with all those Alcas haters? The guy got tons of builds for every situation and a gear list of BIS to less optimal but easy to get.
Making builds is very similar to learning how to draw(or learn some new skill/science, well most of theoretical learning), at first you take references from people that are better and then you become a craftsman that maybe is not original but can do things good or you become an artist and make something new. You don't need to reinvent the wheel when its already done for you.Hell, i know many endgame players that are in top leaderboards and great at theory crafting, most of them started to learn by looking at someone else and still look for things that other good players are doing because there is so many things about this game that one person can't possible explore all by itself.

Shepoffire · January 2020

I queue as healer even without this event lol and I'll drag the mobs and burn them as I run
Soothing spores op

Shepoffire · January 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Unless the group is totally hopless normal dungeons don't need healers, at least in my experience. I ran some dungeons on my low level toons with dps only groups and we managed just fine as long as we kept together and followed the mechanics.

It's not up to you to decide what a pug groups needs or doesn't need though...

ETA that if I'm grouped with a blatant fake healer who's not even trying, I'll vote to kick. If the vote doesn't go through, I'll go into turtle mode where I slot all of my self-heals and then throw out a light attack every so often. Gonna waste my time with your fake healer because you've made the unilateral decision that pug groups don't need a healer? I'll waste yours too by not DPSing.

This is why I think pve is more toxic than pvp lol. Well I guess at this point a dungeon is pvp

dcam86b14_ESO · January 2020

Yes as a healer I ran into fake tanks and fake dps all day but what can ya do but drop out or just stick it out.

VaranisArano · January 2020

Taemiru wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

ESO has one of the most toxic communities to new players of any game i have ever played. Everyone whines and cries about new players but when you mention something about helping them improve they say" youtube and alcast!" People dont want to learn to play a video game on youtube and reading a website. They want to experience the game and learn while playing.

Have you ever played WOW or any moba or shooter? I mean... sure if your big gaming experience is some "happy farmer" the community might seem toxic, but judging by opinions from people who came to ESO from other MMO games it got one of the most noob friendly communities.

Pauls wrote: »

Isnt it way better when players learn through playing instead of blindly copying from youtube or other sites? Especially when it comes to pvp, where build should be optimised for its user, and not everything what some sort of streamers use fits every player. Or you want more youtube and alcast worshippers who just follow their idols without having their own opinion?

What is it with all those Alcas haters? The guy got tons of builds for every situation and a gear list of BIS to less optimal but easy to get.
Making builds is very similar to learning how to draw(or learn some new skill/science, well most of theoretical learning), at first you take references from people that are better and then you become a craftsman that maybe is not original but can do things good or you become an artist and make something new. You don't need to reinvent the wheel when its already done for you.Hell, i know many endgame players that are in top leaderboards and great at theory crafting, most of them started to learn by looking at someone else and still look for things that other good players are doing because there is so many things about this game that one person can't possible explore all by itself.

Alcast and the other theorycrafters who provide accessible builds are a great resource for the community and provide a good leg up for players who need builds that work or builds that fit the current meta.

Its just important to keep a few things in mind when using pre-made builds.

A "meta" build, gear, or rotation will not replace player skill and experience. You have got to put in the practice to get good with it, whether that's time in front of the practice dummy or time fighting other players in PVP.

A "non-meta" build, class, gear, or rotation is not necessarily incapable of completing content or being competitive. PVP has a huge range of viable builds assuming the player using it knows how to play that build. PVE also has a lot of sets/builds that are slightly-less-good-than-the-meta, but still perfectly viable.

Keep those two things in mind and its easier to avoid most of the toxicity that can happen when discussing builds and theory crafting.