Toppling Charge is a broken skill. Please fix!!!

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

Many of you may remember a number of years ago now, that every gap-closer in the game caused the victim to earn a 100% snare for about half a second. It was just how it was coded. But it felt terrible. You lost control of your toon, nobody liked it, and it was changed. In fact, they were addressed a couple times until they got it right. Now ambush and crit rush are in much better places.

I guess because toppling charge stunned at the end, the devs thought nobody would notice that this skill, and possibly shield charge though i haven't tested yet, causes the victim to lose control of their character in the worst possible way. It's not only a 100% snare, your toon actually freezes, for an amount of time determined by the attacking players gap close distance. Sure templars are very strong and bursty right now, but by far the most frustrating thing about playing against them is their ability to not only stun me, but freeze me and remove a GCD from me prior to even being able to break free of the inevitable stun.

Anyone can test this, try to block a toppling charge after you see the animation of the gap closer begin. You can't, you are already technically stunned, but worse, because you can't break free yet, and can take damage from any source. Crit rush, ambush, dragon leap, can all be blocked after you see the animation of the skill begin, but not this skill, because off the way it is coded.

I'm honestly surprised not more people are talking about this and how bad it feels every time I hit that button to block or dodge and think that it is lag, but no, someone has removed my inputs until a toppling charge is completed.

Skwor · January 2020

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

Mr_Walker · January 2020

Templars are underpowered right now, the need more snares/roots stuns, it should be attached to every one of their class skills. CC is vastly underutilised in this game overall.

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Templars are underpowered right now, the need more snares/roots stuns, it should be attached to every one of their class skills. CC is vastly underutilised in this game overall.

Did you even read what I wrote? Do you understand the mechanics behind a skill that stuns you before you are actually stunned? Were you around the time of the 100% snares on gap closer's?

Why is everything around here assumed to be a "nerf" thread?

TequilaFire · January 2020

I have noticed several skills stun before they hit lately.
The NPC version of Crystal Frags which still stuns in cyro I get the stun first then the projectile hits is one example.
Could just be client/server desync.

ArchMikem · January 2020

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

OP's not wrong. Once someone's targeted you with a charge, the game already stuns you before they even reach you.

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

I have noticed several skills stun before they hit lately.
The NPC version of Crystal Frags which still stuns in cyro I get the stun first then the projectile hits is one example.
Could just be client/server desync.

I don't think it's desync, the best example would be dragon leap. I can react to that with a block or whatever after I have seen the animation. It's just coded differently, and I know they can fix it because it is the very same as the kind of coding that crit rush and ambush had once upon a time ago.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

OP's not wrong. Once someone's targeted you with a charge, the game already stuns you before they even reach you.

Exactly, it's a short window before the stun, but still enough time to cost me a gcd as a skill may not go off, and prior to being able to break free. And also while still taking damage to other sources. It really breaks the flow of combat, especially now that it is currently very common.

TheFM · January 2020

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

Templar is op AF atmcompared to the other classes. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't want their ez mode taken away.

tplink3r1 · January 2020

I can't even get it to hit the targets, let alone stun them.

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

TheFM wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

Templar is op AF atmcompared to the other classes. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't want their ez mode taken away.

Templar is strong for reasons other than the class itself. It’s just the class that has benefitted the most from the standardised approach taken by the devs with regards damage, healing, etc. It’s more to do with base scaling mechanics than the class itself. It’s toolkit just kind of shines this patch due to how healing and Crit healing works in PvP compared to Crit damage. But this thread is more about the broken mechanic of toppling charge not about the class itself and wether or not it needs a “nerf”.

Trancestor · January 2020

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

You think you're a better person than the people who want everything that kills them nerfed? No you are the same just on the side of the coin, wanting NOTHING nerfed or fixed just because "ohh noo N word, bad" even when that thing is blatantly op/broken, is just as if not more stupid.

Curious_Death · January 2020

Sneaky way to call for nerf not using "nerf" word

sneaky, sneaky friend

Rianai · January 2020

Not the only templar skill that is broken. Backlash (both morphs) is too and sometimes hits for way more than the tooltip would indicate.

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

Curious_Death wrote: »

Sneaky way to call for nerf not using "nerf" word

sneaky, sneaky friend

It’s about mechanics and functionality, and the want to fix a skill that can remove a players ability to move or react accordingly.

@ZOS_RogerJ Hi, I see you are online, could you do me a favour and please move this thread to ‘Combat and character mechanics’ as it is a genuine mechanic that is broken and feels terrible and here is not the place for it. TIA.

BaiterOfZergs · January 2020

What you’re talking about isn’t exclusive to toppling but it happens with every gap closer. Zos readded the perma snare back to gap closers in one of the updates last year , I’m not sure which one.

After looking I can’t find which update it was that they added the mechanic back , maybe someone else does. I do know with the last chapter they removed snares from gap closers but that’s not the hard snare we’re talking about.

BNOC · January 2020

ArchMikem wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

OP's not wrong. Once someone's targeted you with a charge, the game already stuns you before they even reach you.

No it doesn't, I block TC's after I've seen the animation all the time and have mine blocked, so that's BS.

Rianai wrote: »

Not the only templar skill that is broken. Backlash (both morphs) is too and sometimes hits for way more than the tooltip would indicate.

Tooltips don't tell you your crit value so every critable skill in game is broken.

Go ahead and stop polluting everyone with bs thanks.

Olupajmibanan · January 2020

A compromise maybe: how about making it immobilize rather than stun? Core functionality would remain the same - a gap closer that prevents movement, but it would promote active gameplay. You either dodgeroll from immobilize which leaves you open to Sweeps, or you stand still blocking/shielding and hardtanking the skill sequence that comes after Toppling Charge.

Not even saying that templar already has a strong ranged hard CC.

BNOC · January 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A compromise maybe: how about making it immobilize rather than stun? Core functionality would remain the same - a gap closer that prevents movement, but it would promote active gameplay. You either dodgeroll from immobilize which leaves you open to Sweeps, or you stand still blocking/shielding and hardtanking the skill sequence that comes after Toppling Charge.

Not even saying that templar already has a strong ranged hard CC.

Javelin is not a good ranged CC.

Also, people couldn't deal with a Templar immobilize that they procced on themselves. Can you imagine the outrage if I could buff/dot up, toppling in to an immobilize (instead of a dodge roll or block), get a bit of damage off then CC into the KO?

People would be raging.

I'm for an immobilize on a heavily melee range class like Templar but I don't think that's the best idea.

brandonv516 · January 2020

People blindly defend this without even testing. I very much doubt it's intended to work this way. Thank you for pointing this out OP.

Rianai · January 2020

BNOC wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Not the only templar skill that is broken. Backlash (both morphs) is too and sometimes hits for way more than the tooltip would indicate.

Tooltips don't tell you your crit value so every critable skill in game is broken.

Go ahead and stop polluting everyone with bs thanks.

I'm not talking about crits or even the tooltip value of the maximum dmg, but about the "20 % of dmg taken in 6s" that this skill is supposed to deal.

Sanguinor2 · January 2020

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A compromise maybe: how about making it immobilize rather than stun? Core functionality would remain the same - a gap closer that prevents movement, but it would promote active gameplay. You either dodgeroll from immobilize which leaves you open to Sweeps, or you stand still blocking/shielding and hardtanking the skill sequence that comes after Toppling Charge.

Not even saying that templar already has a strong ranged hard CC.

Mag javelin is garbage if you are a melee templar. If it goes through you just kick your target out of your sweeps range, the only time I used it was when I played a ranged asylum destro magplar during the dot patch.

Skwor · January 2020

BNOC wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

OP's not wrong. Once someone's targeted you with a charge, the game already stuns you before they even reach you.

No it doesn't, I block TC's after I've seen the animation all the time and have mine blocked, so that's BS.

Rianai wrote: »

Not the only templar skill that is broken. Backlash (both morphs) is too and sometimes hits for way more than the tooltip would indicate.

Tooltips don't tell you your crit value so every critable skill in game is broken.

Go ahead and stop polluting everyone with bs thanks.

Yep but this will not stop them from calling for a nerf though they deny it is a nerf nor will it stop them from continuing to make up crap to nerf what they don't like.

Alienoutlaw · January 2020

the skill is not the issue, its a Dsync issue

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

BNOC wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

OP's not wrong. Once someone's targeted you with a charge, the game already stuns you before they even reach you.

No it doesn't, I block TC's after I've seen the animation all the time and have mine blocked, so that's BS.

Rianai wrote: »

Not the only templar skill that is broken. Backlash (both morphs) is too and sometimes hits for way more than the tooltip would indicate.

Tooltips don't tell you your crit value so every critable skill in game is broken.

Go ahead and stop polluting everyone with bs thanks.

You are the one with the wrong information. But your signature gives away your bias so it’s not unexpected. I am not calling for a nerf, especially if what you say is true, nothing will change except the fact that from the moment I am stunned I will be able to react instead of having to stand still, wait for the stun, and then be able to continue using my inputs.

NeillMcAttack · January 2020

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

the skill is not the issue, its a Dsync issue

It is not, I have tested it. And I invite anyone curious to do the same. It’s the same anywhere, in BG’s, in duels, etc. All in low latency situations the result is the same. Try it yourself and ask yourself why does it only occur when this skill is activated.

max_only · January 2020

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Templars are underpowered right now, the need more snares/roots stuns, it should be attached to every one of their class skills. CC is vastly underutilised in this game overall.

Templar’s are not underpowered. At all.

And

No need to nerf this, I haven’t noticed a problem in my experience.

If you are going to call for a nerf just say so.

Joinovikova · January 2020

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

Problem with Templar is they are totally useless or totally op . Now they are OP last patch god mode, but patches before useless. This topic is not about call nerf but call for fix..

jcm2606 · January 2020

This topic is the perfect test to see who actually reads the damn thread, and who comes into it half cocked from the title alone, packed with assumptions.

ZonasArch · January 2020

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Many of you may remember a number of years ago now, that every gap-closer in the game caused the victim to earn a 100% snare for about half a second. It was just how it was coded. But it felt terrible. You lost control of your toon, nobody liked it, and it was changed. In fact, they were addressed a couple times until they got it right. Now ambush and crit rush are in much better places.

I guess because toppling charge stunned at the end, the devs thought nobody would notice that this skill, and possibly shield charge though i haven't tested yet, causes the victim to lose control of their character in the worst possible way. It's not only a 100% snare, your toon actually freezes, for an amount of time determined by the attacking players gap close distance. Sure templars are very strong and bursty right now, but by far the most frustrating thing about playing against them is their ability to not only stun me, but freeze me and remove a GCD from me prior to even being able to break free of the inevitable stun.

Anyone can test this, try to block a toppling charge after you see the animation of the gap closer begin. You can't, you are already technically stunned, but worse, because you can't break free yet, and can take damage from any source. Crit rush, ambush, dragon leap, can all be blocked after you see the animation of the skill begin, but not this skill, because off the way it is coded.

I'm honestly surprised not more people are talking about this and how bad it feels every time I hit that button to block or dodge and think that it is lag, but no, someone has removed my inputs until a toppling charge is completed.

So... TLDR "If it kills me, nerf it".

You're welcome.

BNOC · January 2020

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Please just stop, why must every skill a person fails to be nerf'ed? IMO Templar has been the hardest ner'fed class since beta and the most disabled one until recently since beta, leave them alone.

OP's not wrong. Once someone's targeted you with a charge, the game already stuns you before they even reach you.

No it doesn't, I block TC's after I've seen the animation all the time and have mine blocked, so that's BS.

Rianai wrote: »

Not the only templar skill that is broken. Backlash (both morphs) is too and sometimes hits for way more than the tooltip would indicate.

Tooltips don't tell you your crit value so every critable skill in game is broken.

Go ahead and stop polluting everyone with bs thanks.

You are the one with the wrong information. But your signature gives away your bias so it’s not unexpected. I am not calling for a nerf, especially if what you say is true, nothing will change except the fact that from the moment I am stunned I will be able to react instead of having to stand still, wait for the stun, and then be able to continue using my inputs.

TC is blockable, after the cast - I can make a clip for ya later.

If what you're saying it the case then it must literally be a 1ms thing because it's unnoticeable or it's something to do with distance.

Shadowasrial · January 2020

Templar’s are the most broken overpowered class in the game right now. Everything they do snares the target and reactively heals themselves. Templar’s have more burst damage than nb do