Musings on the GF and the prevalance of 'fake roles'

witchdoctor · January 2020

First, a few assumptions on my part:

1. People 'faking' a role, ultimately, is a neutral issue. It likely does make the queue move faster. In the event the fake cannot perform (e.g., the content is such the role is required), then voting to kick is a perfect solution.
2. Forming your own group is the answer to almost every perspective. Don't like fakes? Queue with a pre-made. Don't like low DPS? Queue with a pre-made. Want to read everything? Want to blow through everything? Queue with a pre-made.
3. CP and gear inflation is probably a culprit. We are at the point that, once you cross a certain skill (with the game) threshold, the trinity is no longer required for a lot (perhaps the majority) of content.
4. Sill disparity. There is likely truth to the idea that experienced tanks (in particular) do not queue so as to avoid being stuck with unskilled DPS.
5. 'Play as you want,' means we are unlikely to see dramatic changes in direction. ESO is a trinity MMO on paper only. In reality, it is a DPS-centric model. The answer to almost any problem is to bring more firepower.
6. The playerbase has developed a cultural viewpoint that the random daily dungeon is just another daily in the sense that its sole purpose is to give a large chunk of XP. It is not to 'group,' 'teach,' or in anyway socialise. It is a daily like any other, a chore to be done as quickly and efficiently as possible. This led to the 'abuse' of porting to FG1 and 'fuels' the prevalance of 'fakes.'

If then, the question is how to make the GF better, the answer would depend on what purpose the GF serves.

Personally, I think the GF's primary purpose is to backfill. The 'reward' for doing a random is to be the 'missing person.' It is not envisioned to be a 'daily' in the model of a crafting writ.

If I am wrong, and it is meant to be a 'daily,' then I think it is a mistake for the reward for base game dungeons to be the same as DLC.

I acknowledge if you think the GF is a 'daily,' then you are likely happy with the status quo. Fair enough, like most 'problems,' the answer depends on what you think the outcome should be.

I think potential GF solutions might include:

1. Remove the beginner dungeons from the random queue. In my opinion, these dungeons are now only useful for new players.
2. They could still be queued for manually, but you would no longer get FG1 as a result for your random normal or veteran dungeon.
2. Instead, increase the reward from the intial quest turn-in to give incentive for new players to do them. This may mean placing their drops (e.g., BSW) elsewhere.
3. Make the veteran random daily more attractive. I'll be honest, I do not know how. It should not be something as simple as, 'the tank gets %50 more XP,' as the obvious outcome is more fake tanks in content that becomes more likely to require a tank for an increasing percentage of people. Perhaps, a new currency? Or a bonus to XP gain for a period of time (similar to the AP bonus for killing a delve boss in Cyro).
4. Provide an incentive to queue for the now-removed dungeons. Again, maybe some short-term bonus would serve well.

Ideally, I think if the GF were no longer considered a daily, but as an actual means to put together a group for a dungeon, a match-making lobby might be better.

Grianasteri · January 2020

witchdoctor wrote: »

First, a few assumptions on my part:

1. People 'faking' a role, ultimately, is a neutral issue. It likely does make the queue move faster. In the event the fake cannot perform (e.g., the content is such the role is required), then voting to kick is a perfect solution.
2. Forming your own group is the answer to almost every perspective. Don't like fakes? Queue with a pre-made. Don't like low DPS? Queue with a pre-made. Want to read everything? Want to blow through everything? Queue with a pre-made.
3. CP and gear inflation is probably a culprit. We are at the point that, once you cross a certain skill (with the game) threshold, the trinity is no longer required for a lot (perhaps the majority) of content.
4. Sill disparity. There is likely truth to the idea that experienced tanks (in particular) do not queue so as to avoid being stuck with unskilled DPS.
5. 'Play as you want,' means we are unlikely to see dramatic changes in direction. ESO is a trinity MMO on paper only. In reality, it is a DPS-centric model. The answer to almost any problem is to bring more firepower.
6. The playerbase has developed a cultural viewpoint that the random daily dungeon is just another daily in the sense that its sole purpose is to give a large chunk of XP. It is not to 'group,' 'teach,' or in anyway socialise. It is a daily like any other, a chore to be done as quickly and efficiently as possible. This led to the 'abuse' of porting to FG1 and 'fuels' the prevalance of 'fakes.'

If then, the question is how to make the GF better, the answer would depend on what purpose the GF serves.

Personally, I think the GF's primary purpose is to backfill. The 'reward' for doing a random is to be the 'missing person.' It is not envisioned to be a 'daily' in the model of a crafting writ.

If I am wrong, and it is meant to be a 'daily,' then I think it is a mistake for the reward for base game dungeons to be the same as DLC.

I acknowledge if you think the GF is a 'daily,' then you are likely happy with the status quo. Fair enough, like most 'problems,' the answer depends on what you think the outcome should be.

I think potential GF solutions might include:

1. Remove the beginner dungeons from the random queue. In my opinion, these dungeons are now only useful for new players.
2. They could still be queued for manually, but you would no longer get FG1 as a result for your random normal or veteran dungeon.
2. Instead, increase the reward from the intial quest turn-in to give incentive for new players to do them. This may mean placing their drops (e.g., BSW) elsewhere.
3. Make the veteran random daily more attractive. I'll be honest, I do not know how. It should not be something as simple as, 'the tank gets %50 more XP,' as the obvious outcome is more fake tanks in content that becomes more likely to require a tank for an increasing percentage of people. Perhaps, a new currency? Or a bonus to XP gain for a period of time (similar to the AP bonus for killing a delve boss in Cyro).
4. Provide an incentive to queue for the now-removed dungeons. Again, maybe some short-term bonus would serve well.

Ideally, I think if the GF were no longer considered a daily, but as an actual means to put together a group for a dungeon, a match-making lobby might be better.

I very much agree regarding the issues you have highlighted.

I am not so sure about any of the suggested solutions though.

Its a good point that needs understood, it seems to me that GF for dungeons was not designed to create an instantly accessible dailly quest/xp content. But that is how people treat it. The idea for dungeons is that you group up with premades, and the GF backfills. You hit the nail on the head.

The problem is of course many folk like to play solo, and many folk want xp and transmute crystals and monster helms etc.

I also think a lot of folk who are playing solo, need to get out of the mindset that they queue and just sit around waiting getting frustrated. Go and do something else while you wait. Delv, WB, crafting, farming, questing, housing, fashion, etc.

Last night while I queued for about my 300th+ run of Arx Corinium (no, the UI shock staff wont drop), I went about my business happily farming in Craglorn. Within half an hour I had dropped 3 potent Nirncrux and 1 Fortified Nirncrux, not to mention a shed load of other resources. This isnt wasted time, Im not frustrated waiting for the dungeon. & yeah, after Ive done my farm runs if the dungeon hasnt popped, I just go do it solo.
.

witchdoctor · January 2020

Basically, I think ZOS needs to find a way to make the GF into more of a match-maker than a daily-giver.

Alienoutlaw · January 2020

remove the XP bonus from the daily random or the daily random completely, remove group buff from group GF, ppl will not want to use it...problem solved

Dusk_Coven · January 2020

witchdoctor wrote: »

Basically, I think ZOS needs to find a way to make the GF into more of a match-maker than a daily-giver.

Whenever there is a reward, people go for the reward and not anything else. That's what most of the fakers are doing -- getting carried for the reward.

Ironically, when people SOLO a dungeon they lose. They are doing the work of 4 persons but getting only 1x reward and no queue reward. They don't have, for example, three other persons helping them get the correct weight Monster Helm by giving it to them. I think this also needs to be looked at.
Of course now you don't even have to do dungeons. Just wait for the Golden. Better thank wasting your time doing 100 dungeons to spend 100 keys to not get what you want. You can instead go farm Mudcrabs for your high chance of not getting any Mudcrab Chitin.

logarifmik · January 2020

I mostly agree with OP, but it was hard for me to read GF as a 'group finder', and not a 'girlfriend'.

Veles · January 2020

In my opinion, the problem is not fake roles, not rewards. A fake can be kicked right in front of the last boss, it teaches something. The rewards and buffs of the registered group are also quite good.

The problem is more general. To begin with, the code of the group finder itself is written mediocre. The grouping method is terrible. They could spy on how this tool is implemented in other games. Also, it is clear that the greed of profit and the quality of servers are completely inconsistent with each other. Server capacities are not enough for this tool to work. The difference is clearly noticeable between prime time and the time when servers are empty.

And the most nasty thing about all this. They dare to organize events based on this broken tool. This is not just a careless attitude to their work, it is such a disregard for us - players, those who bring them money.

Dusk_Coven · January 2020

Veles wrote: »

A fake can be kicked right in front of the last boss, it teaches something.

Except people don't do that.
Part of the issue with fake roles is the freeform builds you can have. Too many people are competent with builds that can solo and maybe because of fake roles they don't want to waste their time playing a build that might cause a run to fail and waste time.
TIME is the valuable commodity. Fake roles do it to save time, either by hoping to get carried or just carrying everyone as a do-it-all dps.

One of the "problems" that ESO has is the freeform builds.
Strangely, SWL also has freeform builds where anyone can play all three roles on the fly, even switch in mid-run. But I never saw the prevalence of this sort of issue. Didn't see people complaining about groupfinder issues either.

What SWL might also have had is a more mature and helpful community that had long-time players who were endgame-ish but willing to help at all levels, even with carrying lowbies who couldn't get a full group. Guilds there were purely social -- you had zero advantage like XP bonuses (which are common in other games) or guild store slots or whatever. Guilds weren't competitive either -- no guild-versus-guild minigames. No one needed you for anything if you were an ass in the guild.

Edziu · January 2020

so all solutions are given like I was reading warframe forum - if you ont liek something with public gaming (randoms) just go play solo lol - but here instead of solo we have to find/form pre-made group as mostly we wont be able to solo dungs at all and tbh finding/forming own group instead queue to gf wont be also to fast...you need to find those players at all....and it is also time consuming by hoping for different zones only to post "LFM" instead like it would be much faster if we had "global" chat for every zone for example for looking for groups for something

and at the end solutions given by OP are not good solutions at all because you cant fix people mentality like -
doesnt matter how pathetic dps you have, you go as dps thinking you are doing much for group when you dont and so taking spot of better player in his role which is one of reasons why not so many tank like to queue to finder at all

I myself was playing sometimes as tank just to find much faster groups for dailys...and many time I was that much dissapointed....as how even people can do such low dps or witch such low cp at all...in these many situations I myself as tank I had for 10-15%+ group dps by doing just 3k dps....so this is not fine and this is reason why tank wont queue so often for dung just to take hours of clearing basic vet because of low dps while when queueing myself as dps dung is going in just moment to end

so most efficient priotity could be something like minimum dps to go on dungs...ofc most people wont agree with me here...becasue most people here are not that exp players and so they rely so much of being carried by exp players

but I bet if there was and queue with lets say limit of minimu dps....like minimu dps should be 20k or 30k then I bet we will be getting groups formed much faster for every role, especially dps as any lower dps, non expl player as dps wont take these sweet spots and so other roles would have more willing to queue as healer or tnak isntead of dps because they woudl be sure dps will be enough to not take years for clear for single dung

Huyen · January 2020

Grianasteri wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

First, a few assumptions on my part:

1. People 'faking' a role, ultimately, is a neutral issue. It likely does make the queue move faster. In the event the fake cannot perform (e.g., the content is such the role is required), then voting to kick is a perfect solution.
2. Forming your own group is the answer to almost every perspective. Don't like fakes? Queue with a pre-made. Don't like low DPS? Queue with a pre-made. Want to read everything? Want to blow through everything? Queue with a pre-made.
3. CP and gear inflation is probably a culprit. We are at the point that, once you cross a certain skill (with the game) threshold, the trinity is no longer required for a lot (perhaps the majority) of content.
4. Sill disparity. There is likely truth to the idea that experienced tanks (in particular) do not queue so as to avoid being stuck with unskilled DPS.
5. 'Play as you want,' means we are unlikely to see dramatic changes in direction. ESO is a trinity MMO on paper only. In reality, it is a DPS-centric model. The answer to almost any problem is to bring more firepower.
6. The playerbase has developed a cultural viewpoint that the random daily dungeon is just another daily in the sense that its sole purpose is to give a large chunk of XP. It is not to 'group,' 'teach,' or in anyway socialise. It is a daily like any other, a chore to be done as quickly and efficiently as possible. This led to the 'abuse' of porting to FG1 and 'fuels' the prevalance of 'fakes.'

If then, the question is how to make the GF better, the answer would depend on what purpose the GF serves.

Personally, I think the GF's primary purpose is to backfill. The 'reward' for doing a random is to be the 'missing person.' It is not envisioned to be a 'daily' in the model of a crafting writ.

If I am wrong, and it is meant to be a 'daily,' then I think it is a mistake for the reward for base game dungeons to be the same as DLC.

I acknowledge if you think the GF is a 'daily,' then you are likely happy with the status quo. Fair enough, like most 'problems,' the answer depends on what you think the outcome should be.

I think potential GF solutions might include:

1. Remove the beginner dungeons from the random queue. In my opinion, these dungeons are now only useful for new players.
2. They could still be queued for manually, but you would no longer get FG1 as a result for your random normal or veteran dungeon.
2. Instead, increase the reward from the intial quest turn-in to give incentive for new players to do them. This may mean placing their drops (e.g., BSW) elsewhere.
3. Make the veteran random daily more attractive. I'll be honest, I do not know how. It should not be something as simple as, 'the tank gets %50 more XP,' as the obvious outcome is more fake tanks in content that becomes more likely to require a tank for an increasing percentage of people. Perhaps, a new currency? Or a bonus to XP gain for a period of time (similar to the AP bonus for killing a delve boss in Cyro).
4. Provide an incentive to queue for the now-removed dungeons. Again, maybe some short-term bonus would serve well.

Ideally, I think if the GF were no longer considered a daily, but as an actual means to put together a group for a dungeon, a match-making lobby might be better.

I very much agree regarding the issues you have highlighted.

I am not so sure about any of the suggested solutions though.

Its a good point that needs understood, it seems to me that GF for dungeons was not designed to create an instantly accessible dailly quest/xp content. But that is how people treat it. The idea for dungeons is that you group up with premades, and the GF backfills. You hit the nail on the head.

The problem is of course many folk like to play solo, and many folk want xp and transmute crystals and monster helms etc.

I also think a lot of folk who are playing solo, need to get out of the mindset that they queue and just sit around waiting getting frustrated. Go and do something else while you wait. Delv, WB, crafting, farming, questing, housing, fashion, etc.

Last night while I queued for about my 300th+ run of Arx Corinium (no, the UI shock staff wont drop), I went about my business happily farming in Craglorn. Within half an hour I had dropped 3 potent Nirncrux and 1 Fortified Nirncrux, not to mention a shed load of other resources. This isnt wasted time, Im not frustrated waiting for the dungeon. & yeah, after Ive done my farm runs if the dungeon hasnt popped, I just go do it solo.
.

The major issue as dps is that if you quest while you wait, the queue always pops when you are in the middle of something:a delve or instanced quest. Which is why people get frustrated. At least I did.

TheGreatBlackBear · January 2020

Even if you had a flawlessly working group finder, you have to acknowledge that the vast majority of ESO players are bad at the game. Or at least bad at combat. In a way, it's a mercy if you get stuck in queue forever. Otherwise, you might roll VLOM with a Cp 654 wood-elf nightblade healer, running sanctuary and Julianos who thinks that running Olorime and using combat prayer is a waste of time in PUGs because dps move around too much, a CP 302 Breton heavy attack pet sorc running that infamous "easy sorc" build that kills nothing promptly who just so happens to be in a vet DLC for the first time but is pretty sure he can handle it and with an 810 warden tank running plague doctor and warrior-poet who happens to be an "expert" in all aspects of the game.
You're in for a frustrating experience either way.

Paramedicus · January 2020

i will address assumption no. 3 and 4.

i think, that ZOS should introduce HM mode for whole dungeon (even just for base vet ones). This would be easy and quite cheap solution (almost no need to work on new mechanics/locations - just make things more deadly). Fakers could que as DDs for HM dungs, instead of trying to find a team which will carry them tru base vet/normal. OFC there should be introduced some pentality for going to normal dung as high CP player or.. GF could just match ppl on similar level.

Anyway there should be encouragement for ppl to do stuff on their level i.e. low lvls go do normals, early-to-mid end-gamers go to vet, and.. enthusiasts do HM.

This could not only fix "fakers problem", but also overall toxiticy in community, where 810 CPs cry about running vet dungs with real healers or semi-competent DD, because it makes killing too slow. It is just not the best idea to mix 810 cps with 47lvl players in same content. This creates lot of unnecessary tension i.e. in team with high level tank or healer and low DDs, end-gamer will get bored because of slow progression; in team where only DDs are high level - tank and healer will feel useless.. Isnt this design just silly?

As new player i should know that most suitable content for me is normal, as end-gamer (above 160cp?) I should pick vets, and if im closer to CP cap, then i should run HMs. This should be encouraged by incentives/pentalites or GF matching rules, where player CP would be considered.