I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure the role system is the thing hurting/killing the group finder.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

The Role system places players in a group based on a role. Of course not always players true to the roles. Some players just select one role just to get into a group faster. Here is the core of the problem with the group finder and whats holding it back and causing great strain on it. There are more players waiting then dungeons getting filled. Under this system. Group dynamic. is something like 2 dps, one tank one healer a system that isn't optional. Because there is many that just want to fast kill things and get their daily reward. There are far more dps then there are tanks or healers this boggles up the system forcing groups to have a healer or a tank. This causes long waiting periods, Unless you queue up as a tank or healer. Then its faster because there is more need for tanks and healers then there is for dps. To fix the issue will require removing the role system requirements all together for Normal dungeons maybe keep it for the vet dungeons.

What this would do is prevent the system from being so boggled down with requests as there will always be more dps then healers or tanks. So it would all be random but because of the dynamics you will likely see a lot more of groups consisting of four players all dps and for normal dungeons this might be all that needed anyway. As tanks and healers are not as important as the most harder content they have in the game. I know players might not like this idea but I think it has to be done to make the group finder work and also make events like the undaunted event even possible.

So boons from removal of role requirements for normal difficulty version of the group finder.
System isn't boggled down by requests
Dungeons queue a lot faster placing less strain on the group finder.
Lag might be reduced because the system isn't as overloaded with players trying to get into a queue they would already be in the dungeons they queued up with the role requirements removed.
Group Finder will be more functional and it wouldn't be boggled down as it is now.

Cons
Content might be more difficult without a healer or tank in some cases but not as needed in Normal dungeons. So removing the group requirements for normal dungeons might leader to it being slightly more difficult depending on the content.
Players might rage quit queues because they might consider the dynamic unfair.

x48rph · January 2020

It's only 4 people not 5 in a group but I would not be opposed to this if it was limited to non dlc normal dungeons.

DBZVelena · January 2020

Anybody doing dungeons should have at least 1 self heal on their skill bar. So yes for normal, non-max level dungeons. there is no need for a "role" system at all.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

x48rph wrote: »

It's only 4 people not 5 in a group but I would not be opposed to this if it was limited to non dlc normal dungeons.

Sorry corrected that.
Well some players might not like having dlc dungeons placed into the system but that is a seperate issue that isn't related to the group finder mess that is going on right now. The issue could be solved I think just by making it so there isn't as many lines to get into a dungeon.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

DBZVelena wrote: »

Anybody doing dungeons should have at least 1 self heal on their skill bar. So yes for normal, non-max level dungeons. there is no need for a "role" system at all.

Yes that is a good point. Just need a good self heal and maybe potions. Soul Gems as well and your good to go.

VaranisArano · January 2020

Even in a Normal dungeon, it's handy to have someone who can taunt the boss, hold aggro, and not die.

I've been in too many groups with fake tanks where fights devolve into a chaotic mess because the boss is running everywhere or targets a low level player who can't handle the aggro.

I'm fine with all DD groups in a premade. In a random group with completely random players of all abilities or lack thereof, it's very helpful to have set roles that most people at least attempt to fulfill.

Ryath_Waylander · January 2020

The only con I could see is where do you actually expect the healers and tanks you don't want in low level dungeons to learn to heal and tank high level dungeons? That being said I totally understand the DD point of view too. The queue times are unacceptable and a learner healer/tank learns nothing trying to catch up to racing dd/fakeheal/tanks. Why not three checkboxes.
1) Speed run - traditional roles disabled
2) Traditional - Tank/Heal/DD/DD enabled
3) Loot/quest - Roles optional

Oh wait.. that would require a grouping tool that worked. Sigh. Why can't we have a waiting room like ME3.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Even in a Normal dungeon, it's handy to have someone who can taunt the boss, hold aggro, and not die.

I've been in too many groups with fake tanks where fights devolve into a chaotic mess because the boss is running everywhere or targets a low level player who can't handle the aggro.

I'm fine with all DD groups in a premade. In a random group with completely random players of all abilities or lack thereof, it's very helpful to have set roles that most people at least attempt to fulfill.

The reason why there are fake tanks is because people can't get queues going if they don't do it. As I said above dps always out ways tanks and healers.That is the core of the issue with the group finder system and the reason why it takes so long to get a group. One of the reasons anyway. That is why they need to remove the role system for at least normal dungeons because its holding up the system. Clogging the drain, clogging the entire sewer system. With as many players as eso has plus the main issues with performance it has. The system being clogged up isn't a good thing and that is why the undaunted event kills the group finder with to many waiting using the toilet at the same time. More people waiting in line to use the toilet. All to be relieved but in this case get the promising rewards that they are offering through the event maybe even houses if your lucky. Not sure if they are in the boxes this. But basically that is how it is right now. The role system is holding things back making people have to wait longer and the more people that wait the more crowded it gets till its overflowing with crowds.

To the point the whole building is waiting to use the toilet but not enough toilets are opening up aka lagging up the restroom and even the entire building itself.. Removing the role system would make sure everyone has a toilet to use. Aka get into the dungeon and do the dungeon. Not being able to finish the dungeon is what you call not having any toilet paper. Then have to find some from somewhere or abandon the toilet without wiping. Aka having to abandon because you keep getting wiped out people leave and no one else can enter the queue to help causing frustration and causing people to leave. Which would be a con but not as likely to happen as many players would bring their own toilet paper aka healing pots abilties and soul gems. So they can complete the dungeon.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Or they could just make all groups 5 person. tank healer 3 dps. And make playing a healer or tank more rewarding. Especially playing a tank. Tanking in this game is a horrible mess. The problem is everyone wants to play a DPS, a few people want to play a healer and no sane person wants to be the tank.

Iccotak · January 2020

early dungeons are useful for people to learn their roles as they get into the game

Thevampirenight · January 2020

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Or they could just make all groups 5 person. tank healer 3 dps. And make playing a healer or tank more rewarding. Especially playing a tank. Tanking in this game is a horrible mess. The problem is everyone wants to play a DPS, a few people want to play a healer and no sane person wants to be the tank.

That wouldn't work out so great for those serious tanks there would be more that would just fake tank it because fake tanking it rewards better then dpsing or healing. That makes it unfair for the other two roles plus causes the same issues. If the rewards are so great everyone would queue for tank and be fake tanks but all dps in reality or healers. That could just invert things or change things around with more people wanting to be fake tanks then dps or healer it would likely not solve it. But I could be wrong. The role system just doesn't need to be there for normal dungeons. Its holding the group finder back. That is how I see it. Adding an extra dps might help a little bit but still wouldn't fix anything. It would be a temp fix at best. But with events like the undaunted event it wouldn't do much if anything because there would still be overflowing numbers of people queued up and not enough tanks or healers.

AlnilamE · January 2020

You are free to do that if you form your own group.

I prefer my groups to be a trinity, so that new people can learn how to run dungeons properly and not expect they can just burn everything down in vet without respecting mechanics.

Ryath_Waylander · January 2020

AlnilamE wrote: »

You are free to do that if you form your own group.

I prefer my groups to be a trinity, so that new people can learn how to run dungeons properly and not expect they can just burn everything down in vet without respecting mechanics.

I agree to an extent but the rewards come with a random, which rewards you with xp. I think it would lessen the problem if the xp on a random normal was significantly higher on veteran level. This would perhaps channel some of the population into a different queue.

Nanfoodle · January 2020

As someone that picked ESO because it's a trinity MMO, this saddens me to see this even suggested.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

As someone that picked ESO because it's a trinity MMO, this saddens me to see this even suggested.

Well if they want to fix the problems they just might have too. IT might be a sacerfice that has to be made. Plus the trinity can be still there you can be a tank healer or dps. The random queue could even have three tanks one healer one dps. The trinity will still be there. Normal its not really needed as much but vet it is because of how it all is. There doesn't have to be a trinity in every aspect. With the undaunted event and the issues with the group finder. The way they make it sound is there is to many using it. It can't handle the amount of people that are using it. That is one of the reasons why I made this thread. Because that is the hold up. The Trinity is literally killing the group finder. I do think that is one of the main issue but not the only one. People can survive without it with the random finder. Might make things more annoying but that is the price that might have to be paid to have a functioning group finder.

idk · January 2020

Clearly OP is not speaking to the actual issues with the GF and merely how DPS have to wait .

1. Abysmal dps drives skilled tanks away from the GF. There is some very bad DPS out there. Experienced tanks prefer to join premade groups and it is easy for them to do so.
2. People prefer to avoid being part of the solution. Being how it is so easy to have an alt build to heal or dps there is no reason for waiting other than personal choice.

It is so easy form a group before queueing. When the game launched most players that did dungeons formed their group and did not use the GF as the GF would usually form partial groups. It is easy and most decent player go this route today as it help ensure they will have a good group.

I am no expert but that information is spot on.

Nanfoodle · January 2020

My suggestion, add duel spec to the game. Make it easier for people to play more then one role on one char. Make a separate inventory tab for gear so people can play more roles easier. Make us pay Crowns to unlock it if we must.

thorwyn · January 2020

I fail to see how eliminating the role system would change anything when people can already flag as a tank to bypass the role requirements. If you are playing a tank and queue into a no-role group finder, you might end up with 2 other tanks and 1 healer. The scenario might not be very likely, but it could happen. Good luck bringing down that last boss with this set up.
It's the same deal as always when people are trying to "fix" the group finder, be it by adding filters and layers or by role verification checks: all you do is bring a ton of new problems to an already shaky system. Make the group finder work properly and leave it the f... alone!

naturebased · January 2020

They need to incentivize running a tank or healer more honestly, then people would want to make those toons and play them. If theres more tanks and heals, then its much more balanced and proper group forming would be a lot easier.

Dps just spam buttons, tank has to keep up taunt and armor and cc and heal has to make sure no one dies or their group chews them out. Most people dont consider that to be enjoyable. Hell, even make tanking or healing OP, i wouldnt care

idk · January 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

My suggestion, add duel spec to the game. Make it easier for people to play more then one role on one char. Make a separate inventory tab for gear so people can play more roles easier. Make us pay Crowns to unlock it if we must.

It actually is easy.

On a magicka based character I have healed, dps and tanked in dungeons merely by swapping out some skills and gear.
On Stamina based characters I have dpsed and tanked in dungeon merely by swapping out some skills and gear.

Every character of mine can perform multiple roles for vet 4 man dungeons except for my pure tanks (their dps sucks). All without having to change morphs, CP or attributes. The DPS characters have CP for vet HM trials (though that does change based on the trial).

It easy to swap roles with what we have in game. I do it in less than a minute and I do not have to go anywhere special to do so.

idk · January 2020

naturebased wrote: »

They need to incentivize running a tank or healer more honestly, then people would want to make those toons and play them.

Dps just spam buttons, tank has to keep up taunt and armor and cc and heal has to make sure no one dies or their group chews them out

There is an incentive. Faster queue times. What more do you want?

If Zos were to incentivize it more it would merely incentivize fake tanks.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

I fail to see how eliminating the role system would change anything when people can already flag as a tank to bypass the role requirements. If you are playing a tank and queue into a no-role group finder, you might end up with 2 other tanks and 1 healer. The scenario might not be very likely, but it could happen. Good luck bringing down that last boss with this set up.
It's the same deal as always when people are trying to "fix" the group finder, be it by adding filters and layers or by role verification checks: all you do is bring a ton of new problems to an already shaky system. Make the group finder work properly and leave it the f... alone!

Taking down the last boss I don't really use this term very often is a learn to play issue. The ground finder being overloaded with people waiting in line is a performance issue not only for the finder itself but everything else according to Rich.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

It’s time for the November update to our performance improvements roadmap. Before giving the update, we wanted to shed some more light on the recent issues related to the new Activity Finder so that you all have a better understanding of why these issues are happening. Note that completely replacing the old Activity Finder was something we had to do. It was not able to be easily updated and could not handle the load we see on the live servers.

Before launching the new Activity Finder, the team tried to put the system to as much internal load testing as possible by using automated bots. Even though bots cannot truly simulate player behavior, they are a good tool for identifying basic load problems, and we were able to get significantly more testing bots into the system than players on the live servers and still have the system run smoothly. This gave us confidence to push it to PTS for Update 24. On PTS, new problems were discovered and fixed, but we never saw player concurrencies on PTS as compared to Live. Once the system hit Live, well, we all know that what happened wasn’t good.

The core issue we’ve been having with the new Activity Finder is that it shares many of the same system resources as the rest of the game. This means that when the Activity Finder gets overloaded, everything else on the server starts to bog down – which is why players experience long loading times, timeouts/disconnects, and sluggish server response at these times. It’s been a challenge for us to identify and fix these issues as each time we go through a cycle of overload, we fix that particular problem, but then discover a new one as new concurrency levels are hit. It is very important to note that almost all of the server issues encountered over the last month were caused by the Activity Finder – it is not a hardware issue or a more widespread problem. The reason why this seems to happen the most on the PC EU server is because it’s our most populated server where people generally all play during the same core hours.

So, when the most recent Undaunted event started, we started to see server performance issues, even though we had already found and fixed Activity Finder problems during the Witches Festival event. We found and fixed issue after issue during the Undaunted event, but new ones kept cropping up. So we postponed the event and are taking our time now to ensure that we resolve this problem once and for all. We are testing a new build internally, and we fully expect to have this issue resolved.

I, along with everyone else, appreciate the irony of stating just last year that we wouldn’t have another in-game event focused on the Activity Finder until we were “100% sure” it would work. With the new Activity Finder, we were a lot more confident than with the old one. Obviously, we were wrong.

Even though it is a small consolation, I do want to make sure everyone understands that the issues you have been seeing are caused by one system going haywire and not a deep systemic or hardware problem. This Activity Finder issue has been plaguing us for over a year now and it is long past time that we fix it.

We all appreciate everyone’s patience on this, and hopefully we are approaching the end of this process. We haven’t exactly covered ourselves in glory--we know it, and we are doing everything we can to make it better.

So most of the problems they are saying here is caused by the activity finder. They didn't say dungeons or pvp but activity finder. That is most important. I bolded that part. So everyone can see. The reasons why I think this has to be done.

thorwyn · January 2020

Taking down the last boss I don't really use this term very often is a learn to play issue.

No, struggling with a boss in a group of 3 tanks and 1 healer is not a l2p issue. It just takes ages.
Your suggestion doesn't help at all. Basically all you suggest is that every player gets assigned to a random role when he queues up. You are trying to "legalize" fake roles so to speak.

Nanfoodle · January 2020

idk wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

My suggestion, add duel spec to the game. Make it easier for people to play more then one role on one char. Make a separate inventory tab for gear so people can play more roles easier. Make us pay Crowns to unlock it if we must.

It actually is easy.

On a magicka based character I have healed, dps and tanked in dungeons merely by swapping out some skills and gear.
On Stamina based characters I have dpsed and tanked in dungeon merely by swapping out some skills and gear.

Every character of mine can perform multiple roles for vet 4 man dungeons except for my pure tanks (their dps sucks). All without having to change morphs, CP or attributes. The DPS characters have CP for vet HM trials (though that does change based on the trial).

It easy to swap roles with what we have in game. I do it in less than a minute and I do not have to go anywhere special to do so.

No, I want full 2nd spec. CP to be different, Skills and Morphs as well. Rift did a great job with this. Was so normal in a team to fail at a boss and people switch roles because a different class as a tank did a better job on that type of boss. Or a healer would leave and just about any guildie would join and work out after who would play what role. It's not hard to do.

idk · January 2020

Seeing OP has quoted Rich's recent statement concerning the AF issues. This quote seems to be part of their reply questing the role system but I see no mention from Rich that the role system is an issue.

I ask so OP can shed light on how it relates since as it is this seems like nonsense.

Nanfoodle · January 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

Taking down the last boss I don't really use this term very often is a learn to play issue.

No, struggling with a boss in a group of 3 tanks and 1 healer is not a l2p issue.
Your suggestion doesn't help at all. Basically all you suggest is that every player gets assigned to a random role when he queues up.

As content scales you learn your role and how to synergy with other roles/classes. Having a community raised with your idea would have a new wave of dumber players not able to play vet at all. If they did what you would suggest, I would quit ESO.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

thorwyn wrote: »

Taking down the last boss I don't really use this term very often is a learn to play issue.

No, struggling with a boss in a group of 3 tanks and 1 healer is not a l2p issue.
Your suggestion doesn't help at all. Basically all you suggest is that every player gets assigned to a random role when he queues up.

That is exactly what I'm saying. I know people will hate it. But people are really hated the performance issues even more. 15 minutes to 45 minutes. Thousands of people through thousands of people stuck in the activity finder for that long for a dungeon. More people more performance goes down for the ui since it has to process so many requests at the same time. That is why they have to remove the role system for normal. 45 to 15 minutes to get into one. Is bad but 15 to 45 seconds to get into one is good. That is what this would do. So got tens of thousands all in the activity finder at once possibly even millions when it comes to events like the undaunted. Thousands queue up at the same time. The point is preventing build up on people who are waiting. That is whats killing performance according to them. Last year they mentioned directly that nearly all of the issues with eu sever performance was caused by the activity finder. The finder can't handle that many people and the various actions all that once while processing their request to enter a dungeon while also queuing them up with the trinity dynamic. Server just can't handle it. It can't handle the build up.

idk · January 2020

Nanfoodle wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

My suggestion, add duel spec to the game. Make it easier for people to play more then one role on one char. Make a separate inventory tab for gear so people can play more roles easier. Make us pay Crowns to unlock it if we must.

It actually is easy.

On a magicka based character I have healed, dps and tanked in dungeons merely by swapping out some skills and gear.
On Stamina based characters I have dpsed and tanked in dungeon merely by swapping out some skills and gear.

Every character of mine can perform multiple roles for vet 4 man dungeons except for my pure tanks (their dps sucks). All without having to change morphs, CP or attributes. The DPS characters have CP for vet HM trials (though that does change based on the trial).

It easy to swap roles with what we have in game. I do it in less than a minute and I do not have to go anywhere special to do so.

No, I want full 2nd spec. CP to be different, Skills and Morphs as well. Rift did a great job with this. Was so normal in a team to fail at a boss and people switch roles because a different class as a tank did a better job on that type of boss. Or a healer would leave and just about any guildie would join and work out after who would play what role. It's not hard to do.

That may happen some day but it is really not needed for most vet dungeons as they are pretty easy.

I realized just how easy it was to tank dungeons after leveling up a new tank. I level them as DPS but also level up the tanking skills. I swapped gear, respected my skills since I do not dps on my tanks. I realized after the dungeon my CP was still setup for DPS. lol. Now almost all my character can tank if need be.

For healing, all my magicka dps have always been able to heal. Just slot a rStaff and a healing skill or two and off to the races. For bad pug groups I do need that second heal but it is smart to be able to dps since I usually out dps the group.

So yes, one button total 100% respect would be nice (but expensive) but I prefer to be part of the solution now instead of waiting for an ideal system that may never come.

Thevampirenight · January 2020

idk wrote: »

Seeing OP has quoted Rich's recent statement concerning the AF issues. This quote seems to be part of their reply questing the role system but I see no mention from Rich that the role system is an issue.

I ask so OP can shed light on how it relates since as it is this seems like nonsense.

Don't need to be a genius to figure out the reason just got to have used the system. No the role system doesn't get mentioned true. But what causes the build up of players having to wait in the activity finder system I know the answer as do anyone that has used the system. Tank or healer holding it up in terms of pve queues. Rich doesn't even have to say it. That is the core of the issue. When you have thousands upon thousands of people waiting for the activity finder to go through. All because they have to wait for a tank or a healer no wonder its killing performance. Yes tanks being wary of using the system and no queuing up is a dps issue maybe. But without those tanks or healers the system can't work. Which means more lag, more disconnects and game breaking performance. Unless something changes which I doubt it will they got to do something about that. Which means the logical solution is to remove the forced roles from normal's. That would make the system be able to process things better.

The game can handle the pvp event battlegrounds they don't have the same issue though they might down performance. They had the event before without having to cancel it last January and it was good enough the issue was just with undaunted. The reason it worked is because they just place you in a match and send you off to fight one another. There is no hold up other then players queueing up for it of course.

idk · January 2020

Thevampirenight wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Taking down the last boss I don't really use this term very often is a learn to play issue.

No, struggling with a boss in a group of 3 tanks and 1 healer is not a l2p issue.
Your suggestion doesn't help at all. Basically all you suggest is that every player gets assigned to a random role when he queues up.

That is exactly what I'm saying. I know people will hate it. But people are really hated the performance issues even more.

You have provided no actual information to support your claim that the AF performance issues are related to role selection. The quoted comment from Rich, including what you made bold, says nothing about roles having an affect.

I am asking you to provide actual support for this claim as is seems pretty baseless. Is your idea based on actual information or a wild hypothesis without any basis in reality?

thorwyn · January 2020

That is exactly what I'm saying. I know people will hate it. But people are really hated the performance issues even more.

It's fighting fire with fire.
You can *already bypass the waiting queue by faking a role* if you want to. Just flag as tank and enjoy the instant group. Afraid of getting kicked because people think that 13,5k hp with bow/bow is not a good idea for a tank? This might happen in a "4 random mexicans" group as well.
How are people supposed to learn how to play their role when the group finder just randomly tosses them together?