One way of making classes more unique

richo262 · January 2020

Presently we have three trees, as of the new classes the trees are dedicated toward DPS, Healing, Tanking.

Alternatively, ZOS could reduce it to two trees in a similar fashion to how Alliance War works : Assault and Support.

The third tree ends up moved to replace other skills in Fighters, Undaunted, Mages guild, Armor trees

Example being
Sorcerer
Negate Magic - Moved to Undaunted Ultimate
Dark Exchange - Replaces Balance (Mages Guild)
Conjured Ward - Replaces Harness Magicka (Armor tree) can also make a variation for Med and Heavy.
Rune Prison - Replaces Trap (Fighters Guild) the effect also grants Minor Force, costs Stamina
Daedric Mines - Replaces Fire Rune (Mages Guild)

Necromancer
Reanimate - Moved to Undaunted Ultimate
Siphon - Replaced Barb (Fighters Guild) also grants minor force (Morph is either damage or restore Stam)
Tether - Replaces Entropy (Mages Guild) also grants Major Sorcery (Morph is either Heal or magicka dps)
Spirit mender - Replace Necrotic orb (Undaunted) also has a Synergy associated with it
+2 other

The passives from the culled tree would need to be moved to the remaining two trees.

The goal being that by having certain skills in the base game trees gain an additional benefit from being a particular class. Class skills should not be moved into weapon trees given the requirement for a particular weapon is a nerf. We'll find that the generic cookie cutter builds that apply to all classes will start to diminish or at the very least give the impression of being different, similar skills but different effects, synergies, damage, but retaining similar function.

GeorgeBlack · January 2020

Nah poop fist is fine

zvavi · January 2020

it wont make classes more unique, it will make classes less unique... If you want classes to be more unique u need to give them more skills while making less non class skills, i mean ye sure, every class will be using the same abilities, just some of them will be purple, and some blue. And all of them will be nerfed after half a patch because an ability with an extra powerful effect per class will be overpowered.

nafensoriel · January 2020

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Nah poop fist is fine

This is why DK is the best class. You either flame noodle or turd rocket.

Honestly, class identity is better served with visuals more than the actual substance.
Like wardens with all the animal vibe. Sorcs should be storms and lightning everywhere kinda thing.

regime211 · January 2020

richo262 wrote: »

Presently we have three trees, as of the new classes the trees are dedicated toward DPS, Healing, Tanking.

Alternatively, ZOS could reduce it to two trees in a similar fashion to how Alliance War works : Assault and Support.

The third tree ends up moved to replace other skills in Fighters, Undaunted, Mages guild, Armor trees

Example being
Sorcerer
Negate Magic - Moved to Undaunted Ultimate
Dark Exchange - Replaces Balance (Mages Guild)
Conjured Ward - Replaces Harness Magicka (Armor tree) can also make a variation for Med and Heavy.
Rune Prison - Replaces Trap (Fighters Guild) the effect also grants Minor Force, costs Stamina
Daedric Mines - Replaces Fire Rune (Mages Guild)

Necromancer
Reanimate - Moved to Undaunted Ultimate
Siphon - Replaced Barb (Fighters Guild) also grants minor force (Morph is either damage or restore Stam)
Tether - Replaces Entropy (Mages Guild) also grants Major Sorcery (Morph is either Heal or magicka dps)
Spirit mender - Replace Necrotic orb (Undaunted) also has a Synergy associated with it
+2 other

The passives from the culled tree would need to be moved to the remaining two trees.

The goal being that by having certain skills in the base game trees gain an additional benefit from being a particular class. Class skills should not be moved into weapon trees given the requirement for a particular weapon is a nerf. We'll find that the generic cookie cutter builds that apply to all classes will start to diminish or at the very least give the impression of being different, similar skills but different effects, synergies, damage, but retaining similar function.

Sorry but I disagree. Why move ultimates/Abilities to other tree lines? They just need to focus on giving classes identity.

Artim_X · January 2020

Nah, I'm good actually.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2020

regime211 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Presently we have three trees, as of the new classes the trees are dedicated toward DPS, Healing, Tanking.

Alternatively, ZOS could reduce it to two trees in a similar fashion to how Alliance War works : Assault and Support.

The third tree ends up moved to replace other skills in Fighters, Undaunted, Mages guild, Armor trees

Example being
Sorcerer
Negate Magic - Moved to Undaunted Ultimate
Dark Exchange - Replaces Balance (Mages Guild)
Conjured Ward - Replaces Harness Magicka (Armor tree) can also make a variation for Med and Heavy.
Rune Prison - Replaces Trap (Fighters Guild) the effect also grants Minor Force, costs Stamina
Daedric Mines - Replaces Fire Rune (Mages Guild)

Necromancer
Reanimate - Moved to Undaunted Ultimate
Siphon - Replaced Barb (Fighters Guild) also grants minor force (Morph is either damage or restore Stam)
Tether - Replaces Entropy (Mages Guild) also grants Major Sorcery (Morph is either Heal or magicka dps)
Spirit mender - Replace Necrotic orb (Undaunted) also has a Synergy associated with it
+2 other

The passives from the culled tree would need to be moved to the remaining two trees.

The goal being that by having certain skills in the base game trees gain an additional benefit from being a particular class. Class skills should not be moved into weapon trees given the requirement for a particular weapon is a nerf. We'll find that the generic cookie cutter builds that apply to all classes will start to diminish or at the very least give the impression of being different, similar skills but different effects, synergies, damage, but retaining similar function.

Sorry but I disagree. Why move ultimates/Abilities to other tree lines? They just need to focus on giving classes identity.

Yep. They added fear to fighters guild skill line. Did it made NB more unique ? Nope I think it did the opposite...

Juzz · January 2020

To hell with classes. It should be more series like - skills, not classes. And it can be better balanced among each other, and grant more customization to player and toon

alanmatillab16_ESO · January 2020

If you want to make classes unique then you have to:

Have seperate classes for PVE and PVP otherwise you have the constant whining for nerfs/buffs that you have now.
Remove any sort of player accessable damage meter addons otherwise you have the constant whining that X class does 2% more dps in a certain situation.

Only then can you add skills to give players the chance to make their own character rather than forced down the route of the current meta build because some website claims it is the optimum.

jcm2606 · January 2020

nafensoriel wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Nah poop fist is fine

This is why DK is the best class. You either flame noodle or turd rocket.

Honestly, class identity is better served with visuals more than the actual substance.
Like wardens with all the animal vibe. Sorcs should be storms and lightning everywhere kinda thing.

Hard disagree on that. If the only difference between classes is the colour of the skills you use, what's even the point of having them? Why not just remove them altogether, and have an option to change colour in settings?

Classes should have unique gameplay loops, that's the entire point of having separate classes. If there's no tangible difference in their gameplay loops, there's no point in having them.

jcm2606 · January 2020

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

If you want to make classes unique then you have to:
Have seperate classes for PVE and PVP otherwise you have the constant whining for nerfs/buffs that you have now.

Remove any sort of player accessable damage meter addons otherwise you have the constant whining that X class does 2% more dps in a certain situation.

Only then can you add skills to give players the chance to make their own character rather than forced down the route of the current meta build because some website claims it is the optimum.

Have seperate classes for PVE and PVP otherwise you have the constant whining for nerfs/buffs that you have now.

Or use Battle Spirit to selectively adjust for PvP, while leaving PvE alone. Or, better yet, balance for PvP, adjust for PvE -- it's easier to adjust against a constant (bosses), that it is a variable (players).

Remove any sort of player accessable damage meter addons otherwise you have the constant whining that X class does 2% more dps in a certain situation.

There are ways of measuring approximate average DPS without an actual report. Have the community collectively pick a boss that is easy to parse against, have a player solo the boss (maybe with a tank to keep agro and a healer to keep the player alive, but that's it), and after they kill the boss, divide the amount of health by the fight length in seconds, to get an approximate average DPS through that fight.

Other games that don't support addons to the same degree that ESO does, that don't support addons that can read data from the game to build a fight report to measure DPS against, often have players that use this method to measure approximate average DPS. Hell, we used to use it here in ESO, before target dummies became a thing (the Blood Spawn boss in Spindleclutch 2 is one boss that immediately comes to mind).

Min/max is unavoidable in MMO's, since the genre is designed for long term progression. When the entire point of the game is to progress your character, of course players will find ways to measure their strength, no matter how inconvenient, and compare builds/classes to find the strongest.

nafensoriel · January 2020

jcm2606 wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Nah poop fist is fine

This is why DK is the best class. You either flame noodle or turd rocket.

Honestly, class identity is better served with visuals more than the actual substance.
Like wardens with all the animal vibe. Sorcs should be storms and lightning everywhere kinda thing.

Hard disagree on that. If the only difference between classes is the colour of the skills you use, what's even the point of having them? Why not just remove them altogether, and have an option to change colour in settings?

Classes should have unique gameplay loops, that's the entire point of having separate classes. If there's no tangible difference in their gameplay loops, there's no point in having them.

Well for a minute consider what a skill is in logical terms.
No matter how you do it it's going to revolve around a player hitting a button a thing happening. Since this is mostly a combat game that button will either buff, damage, or heal. There are only so many variations of that. It is infinitely easier to handle it visually and with patterns/animations.

Don't assume when I say "visually" I mean entirely art-based. Think about how dizzying swing vs cleave works. One is target fixated and the other is a frontal cone. Both have different visual and practical effects that can define a class far better than damage "type" or some esoteric concept like the new bound arms.

Secondly consider types of design. If you have current ESO the skills don't really "flash" themselves as what the character is doing or focusing on. This means no matter how fancy the clicks are thought out the end player will simply see the exact same limited series of art selections no matter what class they are on. An ice warden can cast a patch of ice and some ice crystals. There is nothing that really visually tells you that you are laying down the blizzard of death your class choice is supposed to represent. Is there really a difference visually between an icedk vs an iceden?

Skills require expression to be different as well as practical differences. Since practical differences are limited by the buff, damage, and heal trinity more effort should be applied to visuals rather than practical in this case in my opinion.

Aptonoth · January 2020

Also classes should have access to unique non-combat skills for funnies and roleplaying. Or even class specific ways to make money.

TheShadowScout · January 2020

richo262 wrote: »

One way of making classes more unique

...would be leaving the classes as they are, and making the game react to the class uniquely.

Like, have questlines where different classes get different sidequests! Play a templar, get to the "help out" point...and get send to do pristly stuff, tending to wounded or something, while the warden goes into the woods to collect herbs or the sorceror goes prep for some ritual, or the nightblade gets sent on some sneaky stuff... etc. Or even more involved... like, say, have a questline with an "infiltrate the evil group" theme, your base class could determine what role you pretend to for infiltration, and what "convince them you are on their side" sidequests you do. Go as a sorceror, play apprentive to the cult mage, play as a DK, play witless guard, go as a nightblade, pretend to be a sneaky scoundrel hired for mischief, play warden, pretend to be the new gardener or beast handler for the bad guys pet guars with lightning wands on their head... etc.
It would make the whole game vastly more interesting, and add replayability value for alts... also, be fun!

Perhaps even class-specific equipment, or equipment that changes effects depending on what class equips it... possibly even a skill line sometimes that changes some skill effects depending on the characters class - like the destro staff skills that change depending on what staff you equip, there could be a skill like that goes "fire " when used by a DK, goes "shock" when used by a sorc, goes "ice" when done by a warden, "blood magic" if used by a nightblade, "holy" if done by a templar and "coldfire" if cast by a necro... etc.

...

The OP idea of rebuilding the classes that extensively... is for one perhaps not the best, for another extremely unlikely to happen, since the time for that has passed back in beta.
Its way too much effort for them to redo -everything- at this point, they might make small changes, perhaps redo a skill or two, and they would happily add stuff... but extensive rework that would need extensive playtesting to balance; and worse from their point of view, -cannot- be locked behind a "expansion" playwall like any added skill lines... well, it would be completely unprofitable for them, way too much effort for way too little return.

Anotherone773 · January 2020

Giving everyone access to the same skills or copying skills across multiple classes and then just changing animations and descriptions, is what made every class the same. Out of all the games i have played in two decades that have this RPG style of play, including single player, ESO has the least variation between classes and races. Hell, this entire game is pretty much one giant filler/reskin with all the effort put into an interactive story.

What they need to do is learn how to give classes balance so that playing a DK has some advantage and some disadvantage over playing something else instead of just rotating the FOTM. But people whine if their nightblade cant do the same things as a DK AND a Sorc instead of just rolling those characters to do those things.

Housing has more variation in this game than the class system and it is a minigame.