So is the meta to be all 3 roles of healing, dps and tank at once in pvp or specialize in one.

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

During pvp today my goal was to kill players or be a dps. during gameplay I was doing dps but the issue was I just couldn't kill some builds. I'm wearing damage sets. I notice a theme as a dps i will do way more damage to mostly melee builds. To have them tank my damage, heal and then burst me for my full health. I typically would do a 100k damage to them and then get bursted for 28k health. So is the end game pvp goal to kill a players to be a tank, dps and healer or to specialize in a area of dps, healer or tank. I think the answer to this question is the main reason I feel so confuse during pvp during this patch. I'm honestly confuse on the direction.

Valykc · January 2020

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

Mr_Walker · January 2020

Valykc wrote: »

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

Very constructive....

Gilvoth · January 2020

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

During pvp today my goal was to kill players or be a dps. during gameplay I was doing dps but the issue was I just couldn't kill some builds. I'm wearing damage sets. I notice a theme as a dps i will do way more damage to mostly melee builds. To have them tank my damage, heal and then burst me for my full health. I typically would do a 100k damage to them and then get bursted for 28k health. So is the end game pvp goal to kill a players to be a tank, dps and healer or to specialize in a area of dps, healer or tank. I think the answer to this question is the main reason I feel so confuse during pvp during this patch. I'm honestly confuse on the direction.

they want everyone to fill all roles and it this is very bad for PvP because it encourages massive high tanking and high damage builds that are too hard to kill unless you have high poisens or high Oblivion damage.
and since they remove BOTH of those from eso it has made killing high tank damage builds almost imposible unless you have large groups to chase them down and trap and kill just 1 build type.

Valykc · January 2020

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

Very constructive....

You must be new to the forums, take a look around at all the threads OP has posted, then maybe you’ll understand my (and a majority of other forum users’) frustration.

Gatdangmayne · January 2020

Op are you sincerely asking for help instead of arbitrarily calling for nerfs?

If so, then yes, the point of pvp is typically to be a mix of all 3 roles. Pvp is not pve.

Yes, there are bombers that are glass cannons, full block and cc tanks, and healers.

But the majority of pvp players have a mix of all three.

When i am going into cyrodiil, almost always i make sure i have at least one skill i can use to heal someone else, whether its the off heals from wardens green lotus, or nightblades shadowed path/sap/funnel health, or even just having enough mag to consistently cast ritual on a stamplar.

I make sure i have some way to try to gtfo, whether thats with a cc+running, or mist form, or mirage.

I also make sure i have enough magicka, as a stam player, to keep my buffs up. As a magicka toon, i will have bare minimum 15k stamina, with up to 20k on a magblade for example, so i can roll dodge, and break free when needed.

Edited to add: You also gotta have some way to be "tanky" which consists of mitigating or avoiding damage (resistances, protection buffs, shields, roll dodge, block which is better with a shield equipped or an ice staff) and having plenty of self heals, whether thats by having multiple hots running, or a great burst heal, or both. Vigor+rally+ritual on stamplar, nightblade i rely on dark cloak and shadowed path, warden I'll often slot trees, vigor, etc...

Then of course you also want to have non-ignorable damage. My nightblade isnt going to kill anyone solo, unless i line up my burst perfectly. But just spamming swallow soul, or sap essence? Yeah no.

Same on all classes. Sure you can focus someone being attacked by others, but typically if its just me, my burst window is only open as often as i have an ult.

What is your build?

A ranged petsorc, as much as i hate them and want them all to go away, is still one of the strongest classes in game.

I'm sure if you actually want and accept advice, there are plenty of people here who can help.

witchdoctor · January 2020

Valykc wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

Very constructive....

You must be new to the forums, take a look around at all the threads OP has posted, then maybe you’ll understand my (and a majority of other forum users’) frustration.

Yep.

Although, maybe, there is a hint of self-reflection in this post. Not sure.

We should nerf sorcs though, to be safe.

VaranisArano · January 2020

OP, obviously you'll know exactly what was happening in those battles.

But I can't help but suspect that you launched your full offense against their turtled defense, and then got smacked with burst damage once you could no longer defend because you'd wasted most of your resources on a turtled defense.

Being a Damage Dealer in PVP requires knowing when to hit hard and when to wait out your opponent.

Iskiab · January 2020

Thinking being a tank, healer and dps wrapped into one build is a good way of looking at it.

What you want is:
- enough tankiness so you don’t die every time you’re stunned
- enough healing so you can recover from someone’s burst and keep yourself alive
- the rest into damage/stats

Trying to focus too hard on doing damage and sacrificing tankiness and healing will cause you to do less damage. PvP is fast paced and in a couple of GCDs you can get someone to half health, this is unavoidable. The question then is what do you do if this happens to you?

Defense is also more expensive then offense. If you’re half health and keep spamming say your BoL while someone else is spamming dizzy you’re not going to able to keep up.

Thats stuff I think about when I make a build.

idk · January 2020

Might I suggest OP inform us what gear they are wearing. If they are in a CP campaign then also include the CP layout, esp Mage and Warrior. Lastly list the skills being used.

If OP is finding all these areas challenging then as a community I think we should try to get to the root of the issue and offer some helpful advice. Granted, our character build is only half the reason we success or fall in Cyrodiil. Player skill which is heavily based on experience, is the other half.

dem0n1k · January 2020

A general formula for PVP builds is to build more into tankyness than damage the newer you are to PVP. As you get more experienced , the more you can trade off defence for offence. All PVP build must self-heal... unless you are always going to be in a group with healer(s).

Bradyfjord · January 2020

The way I approach pvp in mmo's is to consider the following priorities:

Burst Damage to kill quickly (before opponent counters)
Survival (Mitigation/Self heals/Mobility)
Defense vs. CC
CC for setting up combos/escapes

Since I know I can't have it all, I build for as many of these priorities as possible. And as others have mentioned, to pvp well you must also know when to pick a fight and when to retreat.

Iskiab · January 2020

Bradyfjord wrote: »

The way I approach pvp in mmo's is to consider the following priorities:
Burst Damage to kill quickly (before opponent counters)

Survival (Mitigation/Self heals/Mobility)

Defense vs. CC

CC for setting up combos/escapes

Since I know I can't have it all, I build for as many of these priorities as possible. And as others have mentioned, to pvp well you must also know when to pick a fight and when to retreat.

Oh this is a good one. For burst usually what I do, especially as a sorc, is use as many delayed damage abilities as possible and try and time them so they all hit at the same time.

Most players use hots to self heal, curse with wrath already up is great. Then time the delayed stun to hit at the same time as curse hits. Use an ultimate and you can totally global people.

It’s never that easy in practice though. Messing up other people’s combos is almost as important as doing your own.

Nemesis7884 · January 2020

i still think this weird combo they are doing is not really working

either you have a class identity and then automatically you will have classes better or worse at things otherweise everyone is the same and you dont have class identity

OR and this is probably what they should have done in the first place to be honest, having no classes at all and just a lot of different skill lines all over the world you can mix and match...what would probably also be more interesting travelling all over the world learning secret skill ilnes (like necromancy etc.)...

But now we are where we are and im wondering where they will take it from here... i am also wondering if the decision to use classes at the beginning of the game (and yes i know there were classes in past TES games but those were mere sugestions or templates with regards of skill prioritization - TES games where always about skills) was influenced by monetary factors (You probably can sell more cash shop items if you have classes because people will have more characters).

So yeah, concerned and excited to see where they will take class identity next year...

witchdoctor · January 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

i still think this weird combo they are doing is not really working

either you have a class identity and then automatically you will have classes better or worse at things otherweise everyone is the same and you dont have class identity

OR and this is probably what they should have done in the first place to be honest, having no classes at all and just a lot of different skill lines all over the world you can mix and match...what would probably also be more interesting travelling all over the world learning secret skill ilnes (like necromancy etc.)...

But now we are where we are and im wondering where they will take it from here... i am also wondering if the decision to use classes at the beginning of the game (and yes i know there were classes in past TES games but those were mere sugestions or templates with regards of skill prioritization - TES games where always about skills) was influenced by monetary factors (You probably can sell more cash shop items if you have classes because people will have more characters).

So yeah, concerned and excited to see where they will take class identity next year...

First and foremost: that sounds like it could be a cool concept. (Especially unlocking secret skill lines).

Unfortunately, this is a multi-player game. The 'best' 'optimal' 'BiS' combination would be nutted out, and people would just build to that. I suspect you'd have an even more homogenised game.

I think they might need to do something along the lines of what I read posited recently as a change to the CP system: essentially, giving fewer choices, so that you have to make hard decision. Am I a DPS that has a chance to kill something in any reasonable amount of time? If so, then I am sacrificing tankiness and healing. Am I tank? Then I am certainly not going to be able to do any reasonable damage (let alone also heal my 4-person group!).

I hope ZOS sees what we see. I am interested in seeing what they plan out for 2020.

luen79rwb17_ESO · January 2020

3 in 1 with CC and mobility and burst

Seraphayel · January 2020

Bradyfjord wrote: »

The way I approach pvp in mmo's is to consider the following priorities:
Burst Damage to kill quickly (before opponent counters)

Survival (Mitigation/Self heals/Mobility)

Defense vs. CC

CC for setting up combos/escapes

Since I know I can't have it all, I build for as many of these priorities as possible. And as others have mentioned, to pvp well you must also know when to pick a fight and when to retreat.

Problem is, some builds / classes can have it all. Mostly Stamina builds though. That’s why the favor of Stamina builds in PvP is such a huge problem and hasn’t changed over the last 2 years.

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

All the point of views here are super insightful. I'm thankful for everyone taken the time to share. I'm really stuck as a pet sorcerer. I'm honestly use to keeping pressure on a opponent by always being offense mind. As I got better at heavy attacking and identifying off balance. My reward of cancer and double return on resources allowed me to build for pure damage. As of this patch the nerf hit hard. It honestly kill this play style of rewarding consistency offense. It just dont work. As a result, I realize having a offense mind set is not rewarded as a dps in pvp. I believe this is why pet sorcerer focus playstyle was nerf to unuseable. As the pvp is today PLAYER are specialize in being a tank, healer and dps all at once to kill players. I honestly never really had this mind set. In my point of view a dps is offensive to kill other players . So I have room to learn. I think I will make a build that focus on being a tank, healer and last a dps all at once. I'm thankful for the help.

And I very respectfully do not like the gameplay of this patch. But I will adapt. I always do.

FierceSam · January 2020

Class identity (in ZOS’s world at least) is about power fantasy and gameplay, not about skills and damage

It’s about DK’s being fire wielding powerhouses, or Nighblades being stealthy assassins, or Necros being manipulators of the dead. It’s what makes each class different and makes one class ‘feel’ right for you or a particular character.

The powers each class has will be similar/identical but reflect the class identity. They each need a spammable (all of which will do similar damage for a similar cost), an AoE DoT, a burst heal, a HoT etc. Each of these will cater to the power fantasy and gameplay for each class (so DK’s spammable is Lava Whip, while Necros is Scythe), but they’ll have a similar effect and cost. That should ensure that each class feels different, while also being fundamentally equal.

PvP is the crucible in which these concepts are tested. Players are continually struggling to create the best possible build(s), while ZOS are trying to ensure that there never is one (if only because they want as much diversity in characters as possible). The ideal of balance is in the logo, build 1 beats build 2 beats build 3 which beats build 1, so no build is automatically best.

In PvP you need to be tanky and healy and do damage. You might be able to trade a bit of tankiness for stealth and distance if your damage is catastrophic or your escape speed is superfast (which makes the sniping, bombing and ganking builds effective), but you’ll need to be sure you won’t get into close range because you won’t survive.

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

The way I approach pvp in mmo's is to consider the following priorities:
Burst Damage to kill quickly (before opponent counters)

Survival (Mitigation/Self heals/Mobility)

Defense vs. CC

CC for setting up combos/escapes

Since I know I can't have it all, I build for as many of these priorities as possible. And as others have mentioned, to pvp well you must also know when to pick a fight and when to retreat.

Problem is, some builds / classes can have it all. Mostly Stamina builds though. That’s why the favor of Stamina builds in PvP is such a huge problem and hasn’t changed over the last 2 years.

I 100% agree. When I hear the word homogenization and close my eyes
I see a stam pve support class build in pvp. I believe there is a reason for that. The reason in my opinion is it more effective and therefore easier. The reward is high to have burst and basically be a tank, and healer. Its basically having it all. It very confusing to me that support class have it all and the gameplay meta of killing players
(or dps) is to be a support class and have it all. Smh, not my favorite direction patch gameplay direction but I will adapt.

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

Class identity (in ZOS’s world at least) is about power fantasy and gameplay, not about skills and damage

It’s about DK’s being fire wielding powerhouses, or Nighblades being stealthy assassins, or Necros being manipulators of the dead. It’s what makes each class different and makes one class ‘feel’ right for you or a particular character.

The powers each class has will be similar/identical but reflect the class identity. They each need a spammable (all of which will do similar damage for a similar cost), an AoE DoT, a burst heal, a HoT etc. Each of these will cater to the power fantasy and gameplay for each class (so DK’s spammable is Lava Whip, while Necros is Scythe), but they’ll have a similar effect and cost. That should ensure that each class feels different, while also being fundamentally equal.

PvP is the crucible in which these concepts are tested. Players are continually struggling to create the best possible build(s), while ZOS are trying to ensure that there never is one (if only because they want as much diversity in characters as possible). The ideal of balance is in the logo, build 1 beats build 2 beats build 3 which beats build 1, so no build is automatically best.

In PvP you need to be tanky and healy and do damage. You might be able to trade a bit of tankiness for stealth and distance if your damage is catastrophic or your escape speed is superfast (which makes the sniping, bombing and ganking builds effective), but you’ll need to be sure you won’t get into close range because you won’t survive.

Thank you for a great explanation. Its may be worthy of a best answer. My issue is where is the line of overpreforming vs working as intended. Is it when a build cant easily be beat or when a build cant die but have a curtain value for burst. In my opinion if what you say is true healing some pve support class builds in pvp have no build that counter other then the player mistakes and more then 1 other build attacking at once.

jlboozer · January 2020

Valykc wrote: »

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

He's asking for build advice bud, no need to be rude.

phoenixkungfu · January 2020

jlboozer wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

He's asking for build advice bud, no need to be rude.

Thank you

gatekeeper13 · January 2020

The problem with this game is that it allows some builds to be both tanky and high dmg and with enough self-healing. That doesnt leave space for enough weaknesses. Watching a tank in heavy armor roll-dodge like a DD all the time and still have enough stamina to use vigor and block and then counter-attack, makes no sense to me. We faced a very annoying tanky opponent the other day who was trolling in a farm tower (Campaign) and just wouldnt die, almost unkillable. To kill him, I had to drop on him Focused Aim, Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage and Assassin's Scourge, together with a damage health, ravage health and stamina cost poison and many light attacks, all boosted by Rally, Minor Force and Morag Tong and all within a matter of seconds. And still, I think that if my poison hadnt proc'd, he would ve managed to approach me and kill me in secs. That's insane dmg to counter and still be able to fight back. Sure there is the l2p issue and it is a fact that some players are way more skilled than we are.

No matter what, you cant have a build that will be good vs any situation. All builds have weaknesses. In all builds you will have to sacrifice sth for sth else. A build made to take down tanky opponents e.g with Oblivion dmg, is trash against lower health, low resist dps builds. E.g my bow build is good for taking down targets from range but pure trash in melee, I die in seconds. Just make sure to have a decent healing ability and an ability that will remove snares for difficult times. And ofc, dont waste your resources when you dont have to.

Valykc · January 2020

You want build advice. Ok, try the following:

Race: Breton
Mundus: Atronach/Apprentice/Lover
Food: Bewitched Sugar Skulls

Gear: (5L/1M/1H, Undaunted Mettle)
2x Bloodspawn/Troll King (Defensive Set/Healing Set)
5x Transmutation (Backbar Resto, Necklace, two body)
5x New Moon Acolyte/Spinners (front bar inferno, 3 body)
2x Willpower/Potentates (rings)

Tri glyph big pieces, Max mag small pieces, neck triune with Mag Recovery enchant, Rings infused spell damage, Resto Defending/Powered with berserker glyph, inferno infused with shock glyph.

Front bar:
-Curse
-Spammable
-Frag
-Endless Fury
-Matriarch
Ult- Shooting Star/Greater Storm Atro

Back Bar:
-Dark Conversion/Degeneration
-Rapid Regen
-Hardened Ward
-Boundless
-Matriarch
Ult: Temporal Guard

Try something like that. You could even try 2x Chudan to free up a skill slot.

Gatdangmayne · January 2020

Op, here, an easily acquired setup, that i haven't had to swap for many patches and don't see a need to ever.

Impregnable jewelry+staves, i use inferno nirn dmg enchant, resto infused health steal, and 3 infused dmg jewelry.

Twice born star, all divines, bloodspawn/balorgh/troll king.

Tri stat food. Steed+atro, though mage and apprentice work well too. But definitely steed even if vamp.

I'll admit magsorc is not my forte, but this setup works great on both of my magblades, dark elf or breton.

Good luck op.

technohic · January 2020

You want to be self suficient but people that build full tank are going to be tankier than the ones that are "all 3 roles." For my builds, I try to have some of everything but some characters might be more damage while another might be a little more tanky.

There certainly is room for roles if you run into ball groups; thats essentially what they are doing, although some may want each player to be more tanky to take hits so that they live longer and their combined damage kills.

SidraWillowsky · January 2020

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

jlboozer wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Sounds like you proc’d their full fury damage boost and got bursted.

Yet another L2P thread.

Also, what even are you asking in this thread?

He's asking for build advice bud, no need to be rude.

Thank you

You realize that people are wary of your posts though, right? And you realize why? You've been over in the Combat/Character Metrics section of the forum calling for nerfs left and right. And yeah, you called for nerfs to my class (Warden; I main a magden and play a lot on a stamden) without understanding the class, so I kind of instantly bristle when I see your posts.

If you spin your posts as asking for counters to classes and ways to deal with specific builds like this one, people will be much more receptive. I won't deny that I agree with you that the stam meta right now is annoying as crap, but yelling for everything to be nerfed isn't particularly constructive. Hopefully people in this thread are helping you see how you can counter it, and remember that patches tend to involve heavy-handed nerfs for better or worse, so the meta is very likely to change in the near future.

redlink1979 · January 2020

Nerf suggestion thread in disguise... Ok...

Iskiab · January 2020

Valykc wrote: »

You want build advice. Ok, try the following:

Race: Breton
Mundus: Atronach/Apprentice/Lover
Food: Bewitched Sugar Skulls

Gear: (5L/1M/1H, Undaunted Mettle)
2x Bloodspawn/Troll King (Defensive Set/Healing Set)
5x Transmutation (Backbar Resto, Necklace, two body)
5x New Moon Acolyte/Spinners (front bar inferno, 3 body)
2x Willpower/Potentates (rings)

Tri glyph big pieces, Max mag small pieces, neck triune with Mag Recovery enchant, Rings infused spell damage, Resto Defending/Powered with berserker glyph, inferno infused with shock glyph.

Front bar:
-Curse
-Spammable
-Frag
-Endless Fury
-Matriarch
Ult- Shooting Star/Greater Storm Atro

Back Bar:
-Dark Conversion/Degeneration
-Rapid Regen
-Hardened Ward
-Boundless
-Matriarch
Ult: Temporal Guard

Try something like that. You could even try 2x Chudan to free up a skill slot.

This isn't bad. I ran Chudan, Necro and BTB on my magsorc, I'm thinking potatoes back bar and New Moon Front bar would be better but haven't tested it.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=200674

Curse - Meteor - Streak - Wrath/Frag = Dead

Streak and meteor is a great combo, but I think I'm liking ball of lightning and overload better which allows me to move streak/ball of lightning to my back bar which I like better.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2020

Usually you go dd, then put a s/b on bb and switch to it when you get hit. Because the PVP meta is nothing if not incredibly boring and cheesy.