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An Exposé on Trade Guild Politics, Market Monopolies & Other Economy Topics

Alskar7
Alskar7
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All,

The objective of this rather long forum post is multi-fold, but can be generally summarized as the duty we feel to the community to provide informative, relevant information to the public view on under-reported (and often classified) topics. It is the duty of the public to analyze, verify, discuss, and debate topics which naturally promote skepticism; debate and discussion is encouraged by the authors.

The post will cover the following topics:
  • Trader Guild Bids (Pre Multi-bidding v. Post Multi-bidding)
  • The Myths and Truths of the “Trade Guild Mafia”
  • Net Worth of GMs & Wealth Accumulation
  • The Foreshadowed Conclusion of Multi-bidding on the Status Quo
  • Bitter Realities of Being a GM
  • Propaganda, Deception & Self-Interest
  • Crown:Gold Exchange Effect on the Economy
  • The Failure of Effective Gold Sink
  • About the Authors & Closing Remarks

SECTION I - TRADER GUILD BIDS (PRE MULTI-BIDDING V. POST MULTI-BIDDING

The implementation of multi-bidding has been ridiculed, harshly criticized, and unfavorable to a considerably large audience — but most notably from influential trade Guildmasters and other top leadership Officers. Just a few months from the introduction of the new bidding system, two important socio-economic criteria have been observed: 1) the rapid rise of new start-up guilds with a focus on trading 2) the collapse and forfeit of several notable long-running and established guilds for factors which will be discussed in Section IV.

Before multi bidding, bidding in most main cities and several less trafficked areas maintained their spots with pocket change — significant portions of weekly revenue for years went stable, with marginal ups and downs depending on player traffic and game health. The authors originally intended to publish specific bidding zone ranges for various popular zones, but have ultimately decided to preserve specific data in respect to the trade leadership body. In its place, we have published example revenue comparison data for undisclosed zones below:
Guilds Operating at Tier III Locations, Pre-Multibidding, with Total Weekly Sales 0 < x < 39,999,999g:
Revenues from Tax: ~1,000,000g - 1,400,000g
Revenues from Trade Guild Events (e.g. Auction/Raffle): ~2,500,000g - 4,500,000g
Expenses Before Bids (e.g. Prize Acquisition, Reimbursements, etc.): ~0g - 500,000g
Expenses from Bids: ~100,000g - 1,500,000g
Weekly Profit Estimation: ~1,500,000g - 5,800,000g

Guilds Operating at Tier II Locations, Pre-Multibidding, with Total Weekly Sales 39,999,999g < x < 89,999,999g:
Revenues from Tax: ~1,400,000g - 3,150,000g
Revenues from Trade Guild Events (e.g. Auction/Raffle): ~3,500,000g - 6,500,000g
Expenses Before Bids (e.g. Prize Acquisition, Reimbursements, etc.): ~0g - 500,000g
Expenses from Bids: ~100,000g - 2,500,000g
Weekly Profit Estimation: ~5,800,000g - 9,550,000g

Guilds Operating at Tier I Locations, Pre-Multibidding, with Total Weekly Sales 90,000,000g < x < 200,000,000g:
Revenues from Tax: ~3,150,000g - 7,000,000g
Revenues from Trade Guild Events (e.g. Auction/Raffle): ~5,500,000g - 20,000,000g
Expenses Before Bids (e.g. Prize Acquisition, Reimbursements, etc.): ~0g - 2,000,000g
Expenses from Bids: ~100,000g - 9,000,000g
Weekly Profit Estimation: ~8,550,000g - 26,900,000g*

*Exceptionally rare circumstances produce the 26.9m sum.

Currently, bidding prices are significantly inflated compared to just a few months ago; across most zones, bids have inflated to be roughly between 100-200% higher than pre-multi-bidding figures as shown in the breakdown above (assume that the revenue remains comparable). Many guilds who have been established for years have cut down on sister guilds to consolidate the position of the main guild. Others have simply given up in the new system (and we’ll go over those reasons in Section IV), and then some others have found peace in embracing the nomadic life by hopping from trader to trader. Indeed, the new bidding system has created several losers, and potentially some winners — the following sections leave it to the reader to interpret those winners and losers at their will.

SECTION II - THE MYTHS AND TRUTHS OF THE "TRADE GUILD MAFIA"

We have found nothing more amusing than the occasional forum post, comment, or continued speculation across other mediums that all trade guilds are somehow involved in an elite closed circle conspiracy to generate insurmountable wealth and capital — here’s a big secret: Guildmasters are incredibly wealthy even without a mass alliance.

But the subject narrative isn’t entirely false, either. In fact, known to the authors, there are three main alliance circles that GMs are apart of. These alliances share information on others, alert their fellows if a spot in a zone is available or uncontested, and are places to discuss other mundane political jargon. The effectiveness of alliances are almost negligible in the context of trader security in the modern arena; even the common player can establish that a significant portion of guilds are moving spots weekly. Our internal data suggests that since the introduction of multi-bidding, the trader turnover rate is anywhere between 30-50%. There is simply too much competition to successfully fend off all guilds in the new system without effectively negating any and all meaningful profits indefinitely.

It is arguable if alliances were more meaningful in the prehistoric and generally peaceful era many guild leaders woefully miss. The general philosophy of guild development in the pre-multi-bidding era was through progressive effort to fundraise millions of gold — while maintaining the current held spot at maximum profit margin — to amass a warchest large enough to take a meaningful stab at a more prestigious location. Trader bidding wars in this era could also be considered much more lethal and explosive, with guilds sinking hundreds of millions in the hopes of being able to rebuilt the war chest with the added bonus of a better location. Generally speaking, however, the consensus was that maintaining the currently held position is safer, builds reputation, ensures security overtime, and requires minimal gold sink compared to actively seeking war with solidified opponents who also collect millions weekly. It should be especially important to note that in these times, starting a trade guild was incredibly difficult — when facing guilds with balances of 300-800m gold at free disposal, it is virtually impossible to break into the system and claim a piece of the pie. It kept the current leaders content, amassing fortunes over time, while effectively shutting out competition — even without an established intentional monopoly.

Perhaps it is the change in the normality and approach to the bidding system now that explains the discrepancy between the new guilds who are desperately trying to break through, and the Guildmasters of old who now see significantly reduced profit margins that explain many of the current philosophy surrounding the subject today.

SECTION III - NET WORTH OF GUILDMASTERS & WEALTH ACCUMULATION

It is hard to place an accurate, solid figure on the exact net worth of established Guildmasters, but to the average player, the wealth discrepancy may be a bit unbelievable. When thinking of net worth in ESO, the following criteria is established:

Only items, currency and other property which can be converted, AND originated from an in-game currency (e.g. Gold, AP, Tel-Var), are considered as assets.
Worth which violates the TOS as set forth by ZOS including, but not limited, to accounts owned, mounts, collectibles, or otherwise account-bound assets are not included (excluding Furniture)

Below are generally accepted figures used in estimating current Net Worth:
Generally speaking, Trade guilds try to boast impressive guild halls; estimates from the valuation of a fully furnished Guild Hall: ~30-50m up to a maximum of 100m

Warchest Balances for established guilds ranges anywhere from 400m-1bn for guilds who operate, or have operated several guilds for 3+ years.

Warchest Balances for established guilds ranges anywhere from 200-400m for guilds operating for ~2-3 years.

Warchest Balances for semi-established guilds ranges anywhere from 60m-200m; these guilds may be categorically noncompetitive, comparatively new, have experienced significant leadership shuffling, or other determinant factors.

It is important to not confuse the net worth of an individual with the net total balance of items/currency currently held in the guild bank. It should, however, be notably clear that it is common practice for Guildmasters to associate their wealth against the value of the guild bank. A general consensus observed among Discord groups dedicated to advice for Guildmasters occasionally bring up the topic and mantra 'your guild, your decisions, your wealth' in no particular order.


SECTION IV - THE FORESHADOWED CONCLUSION OF MULTI-BIDDING ON THE TRADEWORLD STATUS QUO

Despite significant protest from the leadership of trade guilds in various forum posts, mail, and other correspondence about the long-term consequences of the new system, ZOS has responded with their assertion that the current system will be here to stay — bad news for the rich and powerful.

But the damage to the economy and satisfaction of trader and customer as a result of the new system is also worthy of attention. Many buyers enjoyed the previous system where they could travel to a zone and practically guarantee their favorite Trade Guild maintained their position, which was good for sellers too: familiarity and reputation build up over time. It is why some trade guilds make 20m, 30m, 50m more than their neighbors adjacent to their own position. Presently, there are no guarantees, and more often than not, buyers are being redirected weekly to find the guilds that they most often buy from. A seemingly minor inconvenience but overtime adds up to major annoyances. Further analysis on the effects of this nomadic atrophy is yet to be released — a subject that interests many “ESOconomists” alike.

And further, what will be the long-term effect — if any — that the continuous closure of well-established guilds continues? What is the solution to giving Guildmasters the necessary tools to fight against a system that is unrewarding? How on earth do we expect anyone to carry the mantle of leadership especially in times where server stability and essential guild maintenance addons are disabled? What, ultimately, was the intention behind allowing up to ten bids to be made weekly? How will ZOS deal with the persistent dilemma of effective gold sinks when trader bids have proven to be not enough? These are all questions that should be given much more serious thought to the development team at ZOS.

SECTION V - BITTER REALITIES OF BEING A GUILDMASTER

While the appeal of amassing incredible amounts of wealth may be appealing to a significant portion of individuals, it is also crucially important to recognize the amount of effort necessary to create, maintain, and operate a Trade Guild. In inner circles, it is often recognized as one of the "most thankless jobs in the world”, to quote several Guildmasters verbatim on the subject. Indeed, especially in the early development cycles (typically 1-1.5 years), leaders often put in over 30-50 hours a week as they built up the guild(s). Many continue to pour in endless hours in following months — very few ever get the luxury of maintaining a Trade Guild operation as the main source of passive income.

With the new bidding system in place, many Guildmasters are starting to wonder if continuation in the current environment is worth the comparatively marginal profits experienced versus the prestige and titular oversight and pride in running an multi-million operation. Many have already made a choice to exit, and more will certainly follow. For others, albeit few, the glory of running a Trade guild operation was never about wealth but the thrill of competition and simply being able to wear a tabard with pride. Perhaps for the first time since established guilds became established, questions are being asked if the millions of gold accumulated in the bank mean anything at all.

And there is some observed consensus even here on the forums when the occasional firestorm erupts about how rich some Guildmasters are: many members of these guilds are content with handing over millions of gold weekly to the pocket of the mogul-in-Chief weekly if it means that the burden of running the operation is not on them. Consumers and buyers alike enjoy the ease of access of being able to throw a few dozen items into the trader a week and make sales — many purchase raffle tickets or bid in auctions with the full understanding that the dividends are often going directly to guild leadership. Debate over whether this relationship is agreeable or deplorable is, in part, influenced by the way we perceive the arrangement.

SECTION VI. DECEPTION, SELF-INTEREST & GOOD HEARTS

Critical to understanding the relationship between the consumers of the system and those who have majority shareholding in the exploitation of the system is understanding why certain choices are made.

Various strategies are being currently utilized by guild leadership in a continuous, dynamic effort to understand, predict, and adapt to the multi-bidding arena. For some guilds who wish to retain pre multi-bidding profits, the employed strategy is placing 6 or 7 below average bids, followed by 1-3 strong bids in comparatively lower traffic locations (ensuring a spot for the week, while refusing to play into the inflated bid prices). For several other guilds, the hope is that over several months of strong bidding, enough competition will cease to allow for bid prices to drop. And for some others, they have taken the position that if guild bids are going to be this high, it is worth to pursue the most popular spots in the game -- a quick observation of the most popular locations in the game bolsters this narrative.

Many remember the Rawl’kha incident where one bored player was able to flip all five traders. They were able to do so with relative ease and security because of the previous norms surrounding trader bids. With virtually no competition, guilds were able to bid laughably low on their current positions (or even bid the minimum) to continuously claim the same position week after week. The stunt sent waves across GM channels; within minutes virtually all Guildmasters knew what had happened and were desperate to understand the intentions behind “RIOTS” (each shadow guild started with a specific letter to spell out ‘RIOTS’). Of course, GMs of this zone had no choice but to reassure their members that they were, indeed, “bidding high”. And while it was true that at least one or two guilds were bidding at close to the Rawl’kha average, others were not. The deceptive truths about the status quo of the time was revealed by the Rawl’kha stuntmaster; to paraphrase the spearhead of the conversation, “I wanted to send a message to GM monopolies”. Is it wrong to present half-truths or lies in order to preserve the false idea that there was weekly competition for guild traders? Consumers must decide that answer for themselves.

But it is absolutely paramount to understand too that not all leadership are corrupted by the insatiable desire of rapid gold acquisition. Indeed, there are many in guild leadership who are genuinely committed to the transparent growth of public service, and who do their best to close the gap between confidential material and public access. There are many that have continued a guilds legacy by passing down its ownership and surrendering all titles and wealth -- a powerful and selfless choice. A few months ago, one particular individual operated a multi-guild trade operation which held guilds in several low-traffic areas, offering extended membership for hefty gold sums upfront. In perhaps one of the greatest heists ever conducted, this player managed to collect over 200 million gold over the span of a few months -- kicking every guild member and shutting down all guilds. Immediately Guildmasters convened and discussed the implications this heist had on the reputation of Trade guilds -- following the incident, many Guildmasters sent letters to their members informing them of the deplorable incident. While never fully materialized, original plans included a letter to the community from a considerable number of leaders to express sympathies for the individuals affected by the incident. It is known to the authors that the player who conducted the scam was banned after pressure from various guild leaders and community members.

SECTION VII. CROWN:GOLD EXCHANGES

The explosive popularity of the once elusive crown:gold exchange has produced an interesting dynamic to the economy as a whole. Several immediate observations can be made in the present exchange dynamic: 1) the colossal amount of gold circulating on the servers is significantly disproportionate to the amount of crowns available for sale at any time 2) a lack of competition in organized crown exchange has produced almost unbeatable monopolization of the market as middlemen (this will be discussed further) 3) the long term effects -- if any -- of massive shifts in gold is unclear.

Perhaps the most interesting to the authors is the level of monopolization that currently exists. Namely, one crown exchange empire has now amassed a fortune of over 400m+ gold just through the meager broker tax split. To the knowledge of the authors, the wealth is not distributed to its lower-level staff, nor is it distributed as any sort of dividend to sellers or brokers and other applicable active participants. The wealth is concentrated among two or three individuals which comprise of the executive leadership board. Intense monopoly has also been a trademark, as testimony from former Brokers and Sponsors alike similarly conclude that the operation conducted is similar to a mafia; the video attached best summarizes one such occurrence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5orS9J75olo.
And in truth, there is reasonable duty to pursue intense monopoly efforts; any organization acquires more wealth without sufficient competition, and just like trade guilds, many consumers are more than content to pay for the service provided.

Another interesting element of the rise of crown:gold exchange is the simple fact that it is seemingly impossible to effectively create equilibrium between the demand and supply for one major reason: the wealth discrepancy. Current rates currently stand anywhere from 225:1 - 250:1 on the PC-NA Megaserver; lets imagine that the rate went up to 400:1 today. The disproportionate effect this would have would be critically dramatic. Various gold moguls who have amassed fortunes in the game would be content to pay the rate (and anyway, this rate is what normal EU players pay), while the biggest losers would be the average player who would be effectively cut out of the market. It is assumed by the authors that while it would cut out a significant chunk out of the exchange market, a large enough market of participants would remain to maintain the status quo of insatiable demand.

And finally, the seemingly endless demand for crowns has allowed guild leaders who are desperate for gold to fend off competing guilds or wage war on other guilds now have an easy, ZOS-endorsed gold buying strategy. Within Guildmaster circles, the practice of buying gold to wage war is commonly known, albeit discreetly discussed.

SECTION VIII - THE FAILURE OF EFFECTIVE GOLD SINK

As it stands, the biggest gold sink is trader bids. It is thought among the authors that the introduction of multi-bidding by ZOS was implemented with the two-fold intention of removing more gold from the game, as well as promoting a more fluid environment. But trader bids aren’t enough; the other few gold sinks the game has are largely negligible (inventory, mount, some houses, and so on). It is baffling that even activities such as Daily Writs can net a single individual over 15-20m gold a month just for logging in a few minutes a day for several characters. It is baffling that market monopolies and control over the entire economy is currently possible due to the amount of wealth on the server. Look at what happened to the PC-EU Megaserver when ZOS brilliantly managed to screw trader bids in such a way that added billions to the balances of guild leaders; within mere hours, commonly traded commodities such as gold tempers shot up 300% or more in mass-market buyouts. It is one thing for market demand to increase naturally as a result of events (recall #Summerfall and Culanda Lacquer/Mundane Runes; Blue Jewelry Writs and Iridium Platings; Necromancer introduction and gold tempers; New Life and the relevant crafting materials), and it is another for market shifts to occur for no other reason than player-sponsored monopolization.

SECTION IX - ABOUT THE AUTHORS & CLOSING REMARKS

The authors represent a group, Aura7; a collective anonymous closed collective which is dedicated to counter market monopolies, promoting effective gold sinks, and informing the public of deceptive economy-related practices. The opinions expressed in the post are those of Aura7 strictly, with assists and testimonials from anonymous Guildmasters. All data, observations, and assumptions made are based solely on the PC-NA Megaserver.

Ultimately, the trader game is one with heavily guarded secrets. Guildmasters are only the product of the system provided by ZOS, and we collectively as consumers generally agree that the system is unique and positive -- despite the occasional forum post calling for a global auction house. The full effects of the multi-bidding system have yet to be materialized; there are already indications that inflated bidding prices will once again go on a downtrend. The issue of effective gold sinks still remain, and the economy as a whole still remains wholly vulnerable to the grip of a few wealthy money bags.

From all of us who represent Aura7, thank you for reading!
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Interesting read. I still prefer a global market place.
  • Ingenon
    Ingenon
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    Interesting read. Thanks for posting!
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    I've been tracking prices for most crafting items. Except Dreugh Wax which has been stable at about 7K and the recent spike for the furnishing ones due to the event writs the prices for everything else has been going slowly down for 4-5 months. Even the jewelry upgrade platings are decreasing. Can be due to lack of interest since people already got and upgraded their sets. But certainly there isn't any inflation; quite the contrary.

    As for crowns even 400 is low, considering how easy it is to earn gold and the ammount moving trough guilds. I was surprised it didn't shoot straight to 1000 when they introduced crown store gifting. Personally I haven't bought any since I'm not into cosmetics. The only thing that would make me reconsider is making houses available as gifts. Then I would buy a few.
    Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
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  • VaranisArano
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    There's some additional information about the Rawl'kha incident that might be wise to include when you describe it as "With virtually no competition, guilds were able to bid laughably low on their current positions (or even bid the minimum) to continuously claim the same position week after week."

    One of the GMs released the info on their losing bid: 22.5 million

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6072752/#Comment_6072752
    https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bs4wmy/ever_wonder_how_much_a_rawlkha_bid_costs_on_pcna/
  • Chicharron
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    My "duty" is to always sell and buy in my guild and support buying tickets for the Sunday raffles.

    I don't care if my Guild Master sleeps like a dragon, she is the best.

    ETU #1 Milky Way
  • snoozy
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    Alskar7 wrote: »
    Current rates currently stand anywhere from 225:1 - 250:1 on the PC-NA Megaserver; 400:1 is what normal EU players pay
    cries in pc-eu

    very insightful post though, i enjoyed the information :)
    PC EU
  • bmnoble
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    "It is baffling that even activities such as Daily Writs can net a single individual over 15-20m gold a month just for logging in a few minutes a day for several characters."


    4648 gold per character doing all 7 crafts each day.

    Times that by 18 = 83664 per day

    Times by 7 = 585648 gold per week just from the daily writ quest turn ins.

    Add about another 1 million gold from sales per week of stuff you don't need from the writ reward boxes.

    Roughly 4 weeks in a month 4 million + 2342592 = 6342592 gold per month.

    Double that for people who do writs on 36 characters = 12685184 gold per month. (Probably some crazies out there that do writs on more than 2 accounts)

    Those are rough estimates based on my own experience of running writs on both 18 and for awhile 36 characters. Lost interest in doing that all daily now I only bother making as much gold as I need for something rather than building up and endless supply of gold with nothing much to spend on.

    And that is not factoring in costs of mats to do the daily writs.

    Using lazy writ crafter it takes about an hour to do writs on 18 characters almost 2 hrs for 36 characters. Anywhere from 7 - 14 hrs a week.


    Don't know where your getting this 15 - 20 million a month from from writs alone let alone on only several or so characters.


    About the only way you get it up that high is buying low and selling high with the profits from the writs and there is a lot of competition doing that so most are not going to be making that high amount of gold reliably and takes a lot of time and luck visiting traders.

    You also have to factor in how much gold the person spent to re sell an item on a guild store.

    Or from meticulously harvesting every survey you get each month, some players could get there gold income up quite a bit higher doing that but most will let them sit in the bank for a long time only harvesting them when they are in need of gold. Which after awhile stops being a real issue, so some players can be sitting on hundreds if not thousands of surveys they have no desire to do but no desire to throw out either.

    To get to the 15 - 20 Million mark you would need to be doing writs on at least 2 accounts.


    You can understand how some people who do writs every day can stockpile large amounts of gold with minimal involvement in trade guilds aside from being a customer.

    83664 times 365 = 30537360 gold per year from writ turn ins.

    If in a trade guild with a reasonable spot:

    Add roughly another 52 million from guild store sales from stuff you get from doing writs.

    Works out to roughly 82537360 gold per year for an individual player doing writs day in day out and being involved in a trade guild.


    That is my 2 cents.
  • tmbrinks
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    bmnoble wrote: »
    "It is baffling that even activities such as Daily Writs can net a single individual over 15-20m gold a month just for logging in a few minutes a day for several characters."


    4648 gold per character doing all 7 crafts each day.

    Times that by 18 = 83664 per day

    Times by 7 = 585648 gold per week just from the daily writ quest turn ins.

    Add about another 1 million gold from sales per week of stuff you don't need from the writ reward boxes.

    Roughly 4 weeks in a month 4 million + 2342592 = 6342592 gold per month.

    Double that for people who do writs on 36 characters = 12685184 gold per month. (Probably some crazies out there that do writs on more than 2 accounts)

    Those are rough estimates based on my own experience of running writs on both 18 and for awhile 36 characters. Lost interest in doing that all daily now I only bother making as much gold as I need for something rather than building up and endless supply of gold with nothing much to spend on.

    And that is not factoring in costs of mats to do the daily writs.

    Using lazy writ crafter it takes about an hour to do writs on 18 characters almost 2 hrs for 36 characters. Anywhere from 7 - 14 hrs a week.


    Don't know where your getting this 15 - 20 million a month from from writs alone let alone on only several or so characters.


    About the only way you get it up that high is buying low and selling high with the profits from the writs and there is a lot of competition doing that so most are not going to be making that high amount of gold reliably and takes a lot of time and luck visiting traders.

    You also have to factor in how much gold the person spent to re sell an item on a guild store.

    Or from meticulously harvesting every survey you get each month, some players could get there gold income up quite a bit higher doing that but most will let them sit in the bank for a long time only harvesting them when they are in need of gold. Which after awhile stops being a real issue, so some players can be sitting on hundreds if not thousands of surveys they have no desire to do but no desire to throw out either.

    To get to the 15 - 20 Million mark you would need to be doing writs on at least 2 accounts.


    You can understand how some people who do writs every day can stockpile large amounts of gold with minimal involvement in trade guilds aside from being a customer.

    83664 times 365 = 30537360 gold per year from writ turn ins.

    If in a trade guild with a reasonable spot:

    Add roughly another 52 million from guild store sales from stuff you get from doing writs.

    Works out to roughly 82537360 gold per year for an individual player doing writs day in day out and being involved in a trade guild.


    That is my 2 cents.

    Yeah, would take 36 characters to make 18 million gold a month from writs.

    I would know because I've done it... and calculated it... lol

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yQDUjYNQVsIFl0ktkbkSlfYPkzP6pgCOTMQ-qCuzfaI/edit#gid=1959859267
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  • Starlock
    Starlock
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    To what extent does any of this apply to non-PC/NA environs? It seems apparent from the writing that the analysis assumes PC/NA. What about the other platforms/servers? Does any of this apply outside of PC/NA?
  • Solid_Metal
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    holy crap, a proper essay, nice read
    "i will walk through the fog, as i welcome death"
  • FierceSam
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    Interesting read.

    I find the whole multi-economies of ESO fascinating. Scary a f, but fascinating too.
  • agegarton
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    Some interesting stuff, a load of half-facts and wrong guesses, a number of sentences that don’t actually make any sense, and as far as I can tell no actual point to make.

    The forum at its absolute best.
  • AlienSlof
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    Well written and very enlightening indeed - and serves to illustrate very well why I refused the offer of being passed guild leadership to one of the smaller-time trade guilds that I've been a member of since it's beginning. It seems like more of a job than a game at that point, plus I suck at any kind of maths (I have dyscalculia, a form of dyslexia, but with numbers), and I've done my time of a lifetime of work and now happily retired. I want to spend my time playing, not working in a GAME!

    On reading this, I will absolutely NEVER become a leader of a trading guild! :)
    RIP Atherton, my beautiful little gentle friend, my Shining Light. I will miss you forever. Without you I am a hollow shell.
  • volkeswagon
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    the mult-bid system is a failure. It has done the opposite to what it was intended. As a small trading guild I find it harder to get a trader now than before and when I do win it’s for twice the money. Large capital traders that I saw in regular locations are now are losing their spots more frequently than ever and having to settle for lesser locations on occcasion. You guys might want to adjust the sysetem. First thing you should add more traders to the popular trading centres. There is room for a few more traders in Mournhold, Grahtwood, Wayrest, Vivec, Daggerfall, etc. There is no point adding traders to areas that people don’t shop. Maybe consider reducing the number of bids to 3 to 5. Maybe categorize the traders as high mid and low traffic and only allow to bid on one high traffic, two mid and two low traders.
  • Cpt_Teemo
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Interesting read. I still prefer a global market place.

    Global AH is always the best way to go in any mmo imo, nearly 98% of all mmo's to date use the global AH, from what I've played in the past might be others that don't but most are browser games like Flyff and Maple Story from what i've seen
    Edited by Cpt_Teemo on January 1, 2020 12:16PM
  • Nicky33
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    Thanks for the post. Wonder how it is possible to raise 20mln from a guild event (40k donation from each of 500 members, presuming that everyone is participating). Seems quite unrealistic, while this is the main source of guild income according to breakdown. Which means that without guild events taxes allow guilds to only pay the trader bids. Pre-multibidding. Doesn’t sound like a fountain of gold... more like an endless gold sink. And explains why GMs are leaving the business.
  • Arrodisia
    Arrodisia
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    The sheeple yessing this nonsense, wouldn't know the full truth if it bit them in their bottoms. 6 digit bids for tier 1 or 2 spots is a definite no. Gm's making money off of lotteries, donations and such is also a big fat NO. Rich GM's are an extreme rarity. Most are poor. The gold sink of the bidding system was already too high for most gm's. It is now unaffordable for most GM's alone. The bids are in the multimillions even in tier 3 spots. Bids are also 2-4 times higher in most locations, and most GM's are grinding unhealthy hours 8-14hours a day, every single day and more just to fill the bids, event items, and lottery pots. Yes, most of the lottery is paid by the GM's and admins together to make their members be the happy winners, since they themselves can't win the prizes. Most GM's don't have multiple accounts. You are purposely slandering good GM's, who do everything for their guilds for no good reason, while using a bunch of skewed numbers, which don't factor in any of the high costs involved to make it support paranoid thoughts. The only true parts of this are the crown sales and multibidding have had a negative effect on bids directly, and it has already been addressed by players to ZOS directly. Also, the secrets in the GM circle only revolve around the bids themselves. Otherwise, they would be sniped from their usual traders. Please, take the tinfoil hats off and take this nonsense elsewhere.


    Edited by Arrodisia on January 4, 2020 10:30AM
  • Arrodisia
    Arrodisia
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    There's some additional information about the Rawl'kha incident that might be wise to include when you describe it as "With virtually no competition, guilds were able to bid laughably low on their current positions (or even bid the minimum) to continuously claim the same position week after week."

    One of the GMs released the info on their losing bid: 22.5 million

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6072752/#Comment_6072752
    https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bs4wmy/ever_wonder_how_much_a_rawlkha_bid_costs_on_pcna/

    Finally some real information instead of skewed numbers to make players paranoid. Guilds don't bid low in good or even decent areas unless they want to lose their usual locations.
    Edited by Arrodisia on January 1, 2020 3:08PM
  • Tandor
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Interesting read. I still prefer a global market place.

    Agreed. As a regular seller in other MMOs I have nothing to do with the present system in ESO, and as a buyer I have as little to do with it as possible, perhaps 3 or 4 basic purchases across 2 accounts since PC launch.
  • DragonRacer
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    It's fascinating to me how multi-bidding has had very different effects on PC versus console.

    Well, I assume console in that I am on PS4 NA. I can't speak for XBox.

    Overall, trader bids seem roughly the same across the board. Multi-bidding has been great for ensuring I can place at least 6-7 strong bids and know I'll 99% have a trader for my guild unless I sorely screw up. The thing that really saved our server was the death of ghost guilds - there really, truly was a chokehold our Mafia (yes, we actually do have a Mafia) had in large areas due to these ghost guilds, either using them as backup bids or selling them to the highest bidder after flip if their main guild won. Those of us who chose not to stoop down to paying someone for a ghost spot to be handed over had to suffer out in the cold.

    Today, the Mafia and a similar Mafia-type alliance hold the capitals, like normal, like they have for literal years. Some guilds who broke from the Mafia wage war with the Mafia and other alliance for capital trader spots. Then there are the guilds never affiliated with either Mafia who do our own thing together and survive fine in the upper middle, middle, and lower tier cities. And then you have your true independents who do their own thing.

    Overall, seems all our big players are still around. One ex-Mafia guild ultimately shut down, but that was due more to in-guild and Mafia/leaving Mafia drama then any actual game changes. And some of the guilds who used to only ever have a trader because of buying a ghost trader have closed up shop, but I hardly find that surprising.

    Also, LOL at "GMs getting rich off the guild" spiel. Maybe PC Land is different and/or maybe the giant alliances that hold the capitals are different. I know speaking for myself as the GM of a large donation-based guild that being a GM isn't making me rich. In fact, it isn't making me any money at all. All money donated to the guild goes to our trader bids because it's all needed weekly for that purpose. Any wealth I've made (which is pretty small compared to a lot of non-GMs I know) has come from selling in our trader and, yes, selling Crowns so that I can have splurge moments like buying an expensive furniture plan I've been wanting. But that's okay because I did not get handed the GM mantle because of some desire to get rich or feel important - I simply loved my guild and loved being a helpful member in it. Ultimately, that got me chosen when the founder wanted to step back from leadership and simply play the game more. I enjoy what I do because of the community I have and the friends I have made in it. That is my payment.
    PS5 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 500+). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer13
  • StabbityDoom
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    I won't go into anything else, some of which I disagree with, but I do feel your section on foreshadowing the future of multi-bid is a letdown. You basically just repeated all the questions we've always had. What does the evidence show will happen? That's what I'm curious about.

    I commend you on the effort of writing all this, even if I disagree on some points.
    PC/NA
    EHT zealot
    streamer: http://twitch.tv/stabbitydoom
  • Langdon64
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    Global AH now. #Global AH. Then there would be no reason to write lengthy essays when you could be having fun playing the game instead.
  • Spage
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    This post seems well-written and enlightening to anyone who doesn't run a trade guild, or is in the top leadership positions.

    I have been a senior officer in several or the 'major' trading guilds, and currently GM my own casual trading guild. The GMs I have known are in no way flush with gold. I lose millions of my personal gold each week maintaining my guild, and this is a common for many GMs.

    The estimated revenue/costs presented are mostly laughable, and certainly disingenuous in their suggestions. For example, it is in no way common for top trading guilds to near the 200M mark weekly.

    Prize acquisition numbers are also hilariously low: getting donations from members is like pulling teeth because they believe nonsense posts like this one. I put over 1M a week into prizes alone for my tiny casual trading guild, usually more. And yes, I need to bid far more than those outlined projections.

    I'm sure this all seems factual to someone who is a corrupt and terrible GM, or wholly believes what they're told by a few. I certainly have known some, but they are not the majority, and are easy to spot if you have a lot of trade guild experience.

    Crown gifting has affected the market by increasing the amount of gold some players have to spend - but to paint a vast swath of players as people who can simply burn real cash on Crowns for gold is insulting. I have never once sold Crowns because I do not have any extra disposable income - and that's were most of us sit, just modestly trying to save enough to buy a crate every now and then.

    These grand sweeping statements, wrapped in faulty "data", written by either corrupt and/or incredibly uninformed posters cause so much harm to the trading community.

    Guildies wonder why I can't afford to buy all the Mundus Stones and win all the trader bids because some guy on the forums, who appears to not run a trading guild themselves, said I steal from them and am rich.

    Causing all this pain and difficulty for guilds that you have no part of, so that you can promote your Aura7 cabal, is something that actually does hurt the trading game.
    @Spage
    PC/NA
    GM, Real Guild Best Guild
  • zaria
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    I have an feeling the multi bid system was an way for ZoS to increase the gold sink the guild traders is.
    No it was not an monopoly it was an loose cartel.
    All the major trader guilds understood that inflating the bid price in an unlimited biding war would be ruinous expensive, kind of the only way to win is not to play. So they made an agreement that they should not do bidding wars among themselves for the tire 1 and 2 spots.
    This did not stop others from trying to grab the spot, but then the huge gold reserves of the deposed guild was used as ammo so bids was inflated for some weeks and the newcomer who seldom had the gold for the fight backed off.
    And they also lose their 3-4 level trader then loosing the bid for the higher level spot.
    Yes you could do it if the old guild was getting weak and you went into the fight with enough gold.

    Multi biding changed this dynamic, if you has lots of gold nothing stop you from 1 bidding for your usual spot, fishing for an higher level spot and have some lower level ones as an fallback.

    The cartel agreement might still hold but its much safer to try to get an high tire slot and the lower level ones will change much more as they get kicked off with high level guilds getting pushed down and this snowballs.
    In short traders is more expensive and I feel that ZoS wanted this.

    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Urigall
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    Section 1 of the analysis lists data on income and costs. How were these data compiled? Specifically, are the data based upon comprehensive analyses? I'm assuming the authors of the article have a degree of direct knowledge, given that the highest figure for weekly profit, for tier 1 guilds, is caveated by "*Exceptionally rare circumstances produce the 26.9m sum" (I'm assuming that the citation of 26.9m was based upon direct information) Unless I've missed it, the OP contains no mention of the number of guilds that were canvassed. Without such information, the gold values, alone, are an inadequate basis from which to form an informed view. Such supporting information could have been presented without compromising confidentiality. Guild numbers and their trading zones would have sufficed.

    Further on numerical specifics, the article contains references to: "the rapid rise of new start-up guilds with a focus on trading" (how many?) "the collapse and forfeit of several notable long-running and established guilds" (how many?) "undisclosed zones" (why "undisclosed"?) "Many guilds who have been established for years have cut down on sister guilds to consolidate the position of the main guild" (how many?) "Our internal data suggests that since the introduction of multi-bidding, the trader turnover rate is anywhere between 30-50%." (why not provide the data? They would have fleshed out your narrative. No identifying information would have been necessary...and specific sample numbers would have added weight to your narrative)

    Please do not misintepret these questions as confrontational. The data in section 1 of the analysis look authoritative, particularly when they are read against the, impressively lengthy, narrative. I'm not disputing the data; I'm only asking how they were drawn up so I can draw a fair inference. Absent proper data to assess the gold values against, it's impossible to do that.

    On the subject of guild finances, I am a long-standing member of a big guild (PC-EU) I've never once been pressured to contribute. As with any guild, donating is encouraged. My experience - which might be anomalous - is no such pressure has ever been brought to bear on members. Sales targets are enforced (unsurprisingly) but members are never - to the best of my knowledge - pressured to fund the guild's bids.

    One final point. Again, it should not be misinterpreted as confrontational. References to "handing over millions of gold weekly to the pocket of the mogul-in-Chief weekly" and "corrupted by the insatiable desire of rapid gold acquisition" might have been better left out. Barbed comments can lead the reader to suspect there is an agenda in play, thus prompting some readers to dismiss your narrative completely. I'm not suggesting there is such an agenda: I'm simply highlighting that the tenor of how an argument is presented can create the wrong impression.

  • Paralyse
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    I have 230K in the bank and can't buy nearly anything with that, especially the things I need most (motif pages and yellow mats) and as a non-guilded player i have zero access to sell the things I harvest and rare drops I come across that I don't need. With my game time limited to 5-15 hours per week off and on there is simply no viable way to accumulate wealth without access to the trading system.

    I would love nothing more than for ESO to introduce a global market and end their ridiculous trader system that punishes players who aren't in guilds for whatever reason, keeps prices inflated, and makes it difficult to find rare non-commodity items without going from city to city looking at every single guild trader stall. I've been playing since Beta and heard every excuse under the sun about why it can't happen/won't happen/shouldn't happen, with the wealthy and powerful trade guild masters waging a constant war against players having access to an open and free market.

    The number of players who have quite a few things to sell but no avenue by which to sell them is no doubt sizable and allowing them access to a free market would no doubt bring prices down; as the prices fell, people would farm less, or craft less, or harvest less, and prices would stabilize over time. ZOS's economic practices amount to little more than price-fixing and artificial "floors" which serve only to further concentrate wealth with the already-wealthy GM's OP describes. 5 million gold seems like an unobtainable dream to me; the concept of a BILLION gold is not even imaginable.

    At least on a certain other game I can sell game time tokens directly for gold, which allows me to self-finance activities in that game that would otherwise require 40-60+ hours a week of grinding and farming to sustainably afford. (The current exchange rate in that game is about 180K gold for USD$20 with a hard cap of USD$200/wk per account, meaning I can raise about 7.2 million gold a month if I wanted to spend USD$800 a month on tokens.) Oddly enough, despite that system, said game's global market system has relatively stable prices and still makes it viable to earn gold by farming and grinding. ESO has no such (legitimate, at least) system to indirectly swap Crowns for gold and that makes the current monopoly-based trading system even more of a headache for players with limited game time and zero access to the market except as a buyer.

    I don't think it's a cabal, a conspiracy, or any of that tinfoil hat nonsense; I do think the current monopolies exist as a direct result of the closed market and by failing to break up those monopolies and allow players free access to the market ZOS is indirectly supporting both the accumulation and concentration of massive amounts of gold by a very small portion of the player base.
    Paralyse, Sanguine's Tester - Enjoying ESO since beta. Trial clears: vSS HM, Crag HM's, vRG Oax HM, vMoL DD, vKA HM, vCR+1, vAS IR, vDSR, vSE
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Paralyse wrote: »
    I have 230K in the bank and can't buy nearly anything with that, especially the things I need most (motif pages and yellow mats) and as a non-guilded player i have zero access to sell the things I harvest and rare drops I come across that I don't need. With my game time limited to 5-15 hours per week off and on there is simply no viable way to accumulate wealth without access to the trading system.

    I would love nothing more than for ESO to introduce a global market and end their ridiculous trader system that punishes players who aren't in guilds for whatever reason, keeps prices inflated, and makes it difficult to find rare non-commodity items without going from city to city looking at every single guild trader stall. I've been playing since Beta and heard every excuse under the sun about why it can't happen/won't happen/shouldn't happen, with the wealthy and powerful trade guild masters waging a constant war against players having access to an open and free market.

    The number of players who have quite a few things to sell but no avenue by which to sell them is no doubt sizable and allowing them access to a free market would no doubt bring prices down; as the prices fell, people would farm less, or craft less, or harvest less, and prices would stabilize over time. ZOS's economic practices amount to little more than price-fixing and artificial "floors" which serve only to further concentrate wealth with the already-wealthy GM's OP describes. 5 million gold seems like an unobtainable dream to me; the concept of a BILLION gold is not even imaginable.

    At least on a certain other game I can sell game time tokens directly for gold, which allows me to self-finance activities in that game that would otherwise require 40-60+ hours a week of grinding and farming to sustainably afford. (The current exchange rate in that game is about 180K gold for USD$20 with a hard cap of USD$200/wk per account, meaning I can raise about 7.2 million gold a month if I wanted to spend USD$800 a month on tokens.) Oddly enough, despite that system, said game's global market system has relatively stable prices and still makes it viable to earn gold by farming and grinding. ESO has no such (legitimate, at least) system to indirectly swap Crowns for gold and that makes the current monopoly-based trading system even more of a headache for players with limited game time and zero access to the market except as a buyer.

    I don't think it's a cabal, a conspiracy, or any of that tinfoil hat nonsense; I do think the current monopolies exist as a direct result of the closed market and by failing to break up those monopolies and allow players free access to the market ZOS is indirectly supporting both the accumulation and concentration of massive amounts of gold by a very small portion of the player base.

    Agreed. I can send you some gold - I have gobs and nothing to spend it on really (gold I "made" by crafting on GOBS of toons for months on end....)

    Serious. I'd be more than happy to help you out.
  • Paralyse
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    Not looking for handouts, never have and never will -- just looking for the ability to reliably sell the things I farm and drops I receive to build my own wealth. I have no problem with spending the time I get to play this game grinding or with farming bosses for style pages or set pieces; I do have a problem with ZOS telling me that unless I decide to pay the piper and join one of the mega trading guilds I am not worthy of wealth accumulation without a disproportionately large game time investment.

    Hard work is its own reward, but only if you have access to a free and open global marketplace as both a buyer and seller.
    Paralyse, Sanguine's Tester - Enjoying ESO since beta. Trial clears: vSS HM, Crag HM's, vRG Oax HM, vMoL DD, vKA HM, vCR+1, vAS IR, vDSR, vSE
  • Siohwenoeht
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    @Paralyse I play about the same amount of time you do, and am in one low (5000g) dues trading guild and easily make more than 50,000g per week.
    I have made and spent millions without excessively farming anything.

    The trader system is only as intimidating as you make it. The other MMOs I've played that had gah were flush with price fixing, inflation, and dubious listing practices. ESO has one of, if not the most stable in game economies around and that is in great part due to the trader guild system.
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • AnonomissX
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    As a co-GM (by agreement of the actual GM who also wants to just play the game and not have this as a second job) of a mainly social guild on the NA Xbox server, I have to laugh at a few of these suppositions. The struggle is REAL. The instant a GM or other member who has bidding rights / responsibilities doesn't put a good / winning bid in, you will LOSE THAT SPOT. END OF STORY.

    If this is true for a third rate to out of the way trader like the ones we go for, then imagine what it takes to not get "sniped" out of a regular spot like Mournhold in Deshaan. The weekly dues have gone up in order to sustain the spot. I have been a member of an established multi guild in their Mournhold spot, and the dues went from 5k a week, up to 10k a week, and now currently 20k a week. Is is worth it? You BETCHA. I make so much more money than the dues that it is worth

    And yes all MY gold, except for some items from the luxury vendor if I like it, or some pretty dress or occasional gotta have it item, goes to the guild bank, and that gold is only used for trader bids. I am also the one who runs the raffles and usually come up with the gold or items out of my own (virtual) pocket, or others donate for the raffle. We do this in my guild w/out dues, and the guild was only ever set up as a social guild, so only a mid-low tier trader is what we can go for.

    Do I make money out of my own trader? Heck no! I also am a member of a stable Mournhold trader, and I make the majority of my gold each week from that trader.

    But why even do it you say? don't you just want to play the game?

    What do you mean by "Just play the game"?

    * Adventuring? Some people like that, some don't. I do some
    * Undaunted Dailies? I will do them with my friends if they ask.
    * Doing all the main quests? I already did on my main character.
    * Creating different toons? Can't be bothered, I like my main.
    * Doing Dungeons? Yes, I enjoy that but not the end all be all.
    * Trials? Once in a while.
    * BG's? I like them but I suck.
    * MMORPG - Cyrodiil - now you are talking! EP represent! I travel with my EP guild as a healer.
    * Housing - yep, I finished off my Earthtear Cavern, and I like to see other people's creativity.
    * Farming for mats: I will cut you, touch my cornflower and DIE. And bots getting my ore? Die twice you fetcher
    * Selling and trading? Oh yeah, I love the social meta, the mental aspect of figuring out how to market your goods in a major trader vs a very minor trader vs zone chat.
    * Bidding for a trader and running regular raffles? A labor of love.

    What? YOU don't llike farming and Selling in a trader? Well my friend, just like all those OTHER activities...it's an aspect of the game a great deal of people actually enjoy. An auction house would destroy guilds, destroy a great swath of social aspects of this game.

    I can see both sides on the multiple trader bids...but for now, since I am tasked with actually doing the bids after checking with the other officers, off I go each Sunday... and spend all our guild money on multiple locations to hedge our bets. And it's surprisingly...FUN.
    Edited by AnonomissX on January 3, 2020 4:03AM
    Ebonheart Pact, Nord Templar/healer on NA Xbox server. My main toon WAS a tall and foxy redhead - now she has been gamma-irradiated and has green skin and black hair. 3 other characters I only use for writs. Can't be bothered to create multiple toons - EXCEPT now my WW is getting spooled up for Cyrodiil - Blood For The Pact! IRL cranky sometimes redhead chick at large in Las Vegas, NV
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