Burst heal for magblade

zDan · December 2019

For those of you that pvp on a magblade, you're probably running something similar to me, multiple HoTs. This makes it super hard to get out of execute range especially in this bursty meta. I feel as if a burst heal should be implemented into the toolkit to give it some better survivability. I've had a look at Malevolent offering and I would gladly use it if it healed the caster and not just an ally. Maybe a rework of one of the morphs would help?

idk · December 2019

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

Iskiab · December 2019

OP’s correct. Incoming a bunch of broody types to *** on his parade and tell him burst heals aren’t required in pvp, while at the same time playing classes with burst heals which are always on their hotbar.

You CAN get by without a burst heal if there are people who off heal in your group, but that sort of rules out soloing and not running in a premade.

Freakin_Hytte · December 2019

I agree. I very rarely play magblade, but having only sap essence is a tad disappointing. Sure it's a very nice ulti, but not really effective outside of "oh ***" situations. If dk, templar, warden, sorc and necro can have a burst heal, then I think nb also can get one in their arsenal.

LegacyDM · December 2019

idk wrote: »

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

In all fairness sap essence requires you to hit someone to heal and be within melee range to those melee classes that will burst you down. It's not an instant self bursting heal as the OP compares to some other classes.

In the absence of a self burst heal the best I can recommend is healing ward with blackrose prison restoration staff. magicka Nightblade is more gear dependent than other classes and that in of itself is an issue.

Rianai · December 2019

Sap heals for half of a single RR tick at base, which means even if you hit 6+ players it barely pulls ahead. Direct healing does not equal burst healing and sap is far away from being the latter.

That being said, i don't think a burst heal is neccessary for magblade, especially right now with brp resto existing and healing generally in a very strong position.

exeeter702 · December 2019

zDan wrote: »

For those of you that pvp on a magblade, you're probably running something similar to me, multiple HoTs. This makes it super hard to get out of execute range especially in this bursty meta. I feel as if a burst heal should be implemented into the toolkit to give it some better survivability. I've had a look at Malevolent offering and I would gladly use it if it healed the caster and not just an ally. Maybe a rework of one of the morphs would help?

Self targeting offering would be entirely unbalanced, one of the morphs would have to be radically reworked to cost magicka and only heal self, still apply a self minor dot and maybe grant minor vit over its duration. Shrug.

brandonv516 · December 2019

idk wrote: »

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

I typically agree with a lot you say because you don't jump to the same wacky arguments as others. But with this post I'll steer far away from you.

Sap Essence is not a very good heal. And it's definitely not a burst heal, as it would require it to do more than Rapid Regen (a HoT).

I'm sure they could change one morph of Offering to something geared towards the caster but I doubt they will. I'd like to be wrong though.

DUTCH_REAPER · December 2019

I just stealth away and reset the fight.

Royaji · December 2019

I think that access to decent HoTs and Cloak is balanced fairly by not having a great burst heal in NB toolkit.

brandonv516 · December 2019

Royaji wrote: »

I think that access to decent HoTs and Cloak is balanced fairly by not having a great burst heal in NB toolkit.

This is likely the reason but it only works well when Cloak isn't being countered.

Most of the time though someone is playing smart and making both Cloak and the HoTs ineffective.

Iskiab · December 2019

Royaji wrote: »

I think that access to decent HoTs and Cloak is balanced fairly by not having a great burst heal in NB toolkit.

You only really have strong hots if you choose dark cloak. If you choose Shadowy Disguise you have resto abilities, refreshing path and swallow soul.

That’s why most magblades go with Shadowy Disguise and use resto abilities. Even if technically it’s available as a skill, bar space crunch stops you from using most of them.

In pvp bar space crunch means quality over quantity of abilities is what’s important.

Heck, as a templar in a dps spec I’ve healed for a million in a BG with just honour the dead, ritual and radiating regen. A magblade has to use at least 4 slots plus an ultimate to have that output.

Pauls · December 2019

Healing ward + cloak our burst heal, weird but it works

Was even weirder when ward healing was delayed for several seconds.

exeeter702 · December 2019

Royaji wrote: »

I think that access to decent HoTs and Cloak is balanced fairly by not having a great burst heal in NB toolkit.

Reposition and attrition.

That was always the NBs fundamental position in terms of design / defense philosophy, regardless of build type or role. Whether it was rogue stealth archetype, tanky brawler or ranged caster.

Over the years though these tools have been nerfed.

Reposition nerfs - cloak lost its purge, countered by countless options, cripple lost its snare root potency making kiting harder, incap lost its stun, fear lost its ability to move targets away, lost on command major expo on blur.

In return we got snare removal blur, targetless image swap

Attrition nerfs - swallow soul lost minor vit and saw an increase in cost, siphoning strikes was split into two, fear lost its minor maim, refreshing path lost its damage, grim focus lost minor berserk, technically attrition related since this directly effected out ability to float our hp with more potent swallow soul hits. Our crit passive lost the ability to effect our heals.

In return we got, minor protection + hot on cloak morph, soul siphon healing ourselves as well as allies, burst heal on grim focus (shrug) refreshing path heal potency increase, more potent hot on siphoning strikes and not quite a buff but swallow soul on particular builds heals for more now than it did in the past per tick, but still a net loss with minor vit effecting all heals.

This doesnt take into account argonian nerfs and various universal skill and set buffs ofc.

Speaking as someone who has played a cloakless magblade caster and healer since pc beta with absolute success, I am inclined to take the stance that we do not need a self burst heal along the lines of breath or matriarch in potency so long as zos is willing to revisit the unique strengths that magblade has had in the past, make image stay up for longer, give us back minor vit, give strife the functionality of a flat heal based on snap shot tool tip instead of damage dealt in real time OR disallow it from overwriting itself with each application so the strongest instance of it's hot remains at any given time.

Magblade used to thrive if you were able to keep space or play around your mobility options, resto staff with the various passives, minor vit and swallow soul pressure along with strong kitting and an aggressive dot via cripple really hit the mark and set them apart.

Berenhir · December 2019

zDan wrote: »

For those of you that pvp on a magblade, you're probably running something similar to me, multiple HoTs. This makes it super hard to get out of execute range especially in this bursty meta. I feel as if a burst heal should be implemented into the toolkit to give it some better survivability. I've had a look at Malevolent offering and I would gladly use it if it healed the caster and not just an ally. Maybe a rework of one of the morphs would help?

Especially when you spec a bit into healing done/recieved (5-10% CP each), Blessing of Restoration is actually a really good heal with the additional minor resistance buffs and +15% healing in execute range.

Kadoin · December 2019

Ask them to change dark cloak to a burst heal if that's what you want. That's the only way it would be balanced and you all know its true...

The class simply wouldn't be balanced with either variant of cloak and a native burst heal. If that happened, well I know exactly what I would have to do to prove it...

JinxxND · December 2019

I really wouldn't make dark cloak a burst heal I think it's current form is the best version they have of the skill I would just increase the base shadow barrier passive by 2 seconds since it's the shortest armor buff in the game rn and buff dark cloak to getting a slight increase in it's base healing or a 2 seconds increase to it's duration along with being able to get the concealed weapon bonus with the speed while dark cloak is active.

NyassaV · December 2019

idk wrote: »

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

OMEGALUL. You're like that guy on youtube who tried to de-credit Gilliamtherogue.

I get why you say sap is a burst heal but no... It's not.

Rahar · December 2019

The NB burst heal is supposed to be Merciless, but I hear that doesn't even work 90% of the time in range.

Magblade is in a really tough spot now. That I'll agree with.

kadar · December 2019

When I'm on my game, magblade feels really good in overall power.

The problem is it's incredibly challenging to maintain that level of play-- Rotating all HoTs, perfectly managing positioning with cloak and shade, and landing complex burst combos (juggling a cast-time ult and spectral bow) that are completely negated by a single roll...

Compare that with the difficulty of offensive and defensive mechanics of other classes and it's hard to not notice the disparity. Magblade is not rewarded for it's relative complexity.

Victor_Blade · December 2019

idk wrote: »

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

I lost so many brain cells when I read this.

Also for all of the people saying use brp resto, you know making a class gear dependent isn't really viable cos if magblade can use it then so can a pet sorc who uses healing ward into the matriach heal or a templar doing the same with bol. Talking about how generic skills like rapid regen and stuff is good enough is silly knowing healing this patch is overturned and it'll get nerfed.

When rapid regen gets nerfed to the ground then how do you suppose magblade would heal? 200 health every 2 seconds using swallow soul?

Brp weapons are broken and needs to be fixed. Saying how magblade is fine if it uses broken arse gear doesn't bring magblade in a good spot.

What it needs is a good burst heal to recover from execute range. Or just play like a discount sorc stacking shields with dampen and healing ward.

The siphoner class has the worst healing among every other class and that's saying something.

Xvorg · December 2019

Victor_Blade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

I lost so many brain cells when I read this.

Also for all of the people saying use brp resto, you know making a class gear dependent isn't really viable cos if magblade can use it then so can a pet sorc who uses healing ward into the matriach heal or a templar doing the same with bol. Talking about how generic skills like rapid regen and stuff is good enough is silly knowing healing this patch is overturned and it'll get nerfed.

When rapid regen gets nerfed to the ground then how do you suppose magblade would heal? 200 health every 2 seconds using swallow soul?

Brp weapons are broken and needs to be fixed. Saying how magblade is fine if it uses broken arse gear doesn't bring magblade in a good spot.

What it needs is a good burst heal to recover from execute range. Or just play like a discount sorc stacking shields with dampen and healing ward.

The siphoner class has the worst healing among every other class and that's saying something.

TBH, Sap is quite useful to proc Earthgore

brandonv516 · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

NBs have a burst heal. Sap essence is not a hot, heals you and allies around you and gets larger if it also damages enemies. It is a very good heal since it can server both offensive and defensive purposes.

I lost so many brain cells when I read this.

Also for all of the people saying use brp resto, you know making a class gear dependent isn't really viable cos if magblade can use it then so can a pet sorc who uses healing ward into the matriach heal or a templar doing the same with bol. Talking about how generic skills like rapid regen and stuff is good enough is silly knowing healing this patch is overturned and it'll get nerfed.

When rapid regen gets nerfed to the ground then how do you suppose magblade would heal? 200 health every 2 seconds using swallow soul?

Brp weapons are broken and needs to be fixed. Saying how magblade is fine if it uses broken arse gear doesn't bring magblade in a good spot.

What it needs is a good burst heal to recover from execute range. Or just play like a discount sorc stacking shields with dampen and healing ward.

The siphoner class has the worst healing among every other class and that's saying something.

TBH, Sap is quite useful to proc Earthgore

lol

fred4 · December 2019

I'm making do with BRP resto and Troll King. The problem, I find, is that in some cases I end up spamming it and the shield gets consumed immediately without healing, thus fails to activate Troll King. I'm still trying to get smarter with my rotation so I have Swallow Soul running at all times.

brandonv516 · December 2019

fred4 wrote: »

I'm making do with BRP resto and Troll King. The problem, I find, is that in some cases I end up spamming it and the shield gets consumed immediately without healing, thus fails to activate Troll King. I'm still trying to get smarter with my rotation so I have Swallow Soul running at all times.

Still highlights what everyone talks about in that Magblade is too gear dependent.

fred4 · December 2019

brandonv516 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I'm making do with BRP resto and Troll King. The problem, I find, is that in some cases I end up spamming it and the shield gets consumed immediately without healing, thus fails to activate Troll King. I'm still trying to get smarter with my rotation so I have Swallow Soul running at all times.

Still highlights what everyone talks about in that Magblade is too gear dependent.

I don't disagree.

The longer I play, the more I appreciate the vision of the original design team or at least the state of nightblades when I joined around the time of the console launch. In particular I find that I need decent (1.3K) stamina sustain for my magblade playstyle and I can see how stamblades need to invest far more into mag sustain than other stamina classes, if they want to shade and cloak. In other words, there was a method behind the original Siphoning Attacks and I am (only now) questioning whether the Morrowind sustain nerfs were justified. Getting that sustain only while attacking was a stroke of genius that emphasized the go for broke, onslaught (not the skill) playstyle of nightblades at the time. You had to commit to attack.

The ESO design team has frequently made blanket changes that looked balanced on paper, but that paid no regard to how classes actually play. What brought this home to me recently is playing magplar and sorc.

Magplar just sustains. It's the rune, you're thinking, but I use Restoring Focus in PvP, so that's not even it. I think I have about 1.7K mag sustain on the magplar, plus vMA resto and I'm fine. On magblade I run a ton of cost reduction and 2K+ magicka regen. I know I am on the extreme side in that regard, but still. What causes magblade to be so magicka hungry? I can only think it's the frequency with which you use Cloak, the Shade and other expensive skills (Fear?), compared to the average cost of skills on magplar that you actually use.

Sorc, I find remarkable for it's ability to do without stamina sustain. I think it's due to Streak being your choice above dodge rolls, so you can reserve your stamina exclusively for break free. This has a big effect on how effectively you can spec a sorc into magicka for shields, damage and healing.

I mention the sustain, because of the knock on effect on damage and healing. The less sustain you need, the more you can spec into the latter. The new Siphoning Attacks is nothing to be sneezed at, but I think it pales in comparison to the old, which gave you something seemingly ridiculous, like 1K stamina and magicka on attack. I say "seemingly", because when you analyze this a little bit, it was probably justified. Moreover, it required light attacks, which are by no means a consistent source of anything and which kept you out of cloak and on attack in order to sustain. Like I said, ingenious.

Since then, the other main thing that's happened are the various changes to Healing Ward. I have no problem running resto staff on one bar, to be honest. I've never been much of a 1H+S user and I don't see the movement speed reduction, while blocking, synergising with nightblade playstyles at all. We all know, though, how sensitive magblades are to Healing Ward changes. I always thought those changes were primarily directed at shield-stacking sorcs, whereas they always affected magblades the most. At the same time we lost Shadowy Disguise making every heal crit. That was the hidden ace magblades had up their sleeves, nerfed in the name of bug fixing, while perhaps again not thinking of how real a balance change that was. Does magblade need a burst heal? I'm not sure. Dark Cloak is a heal now. I think bringing back the "make all heal ticks crit" functionality of Shadowy Disguise may be all that magblade needs.

Iskiab · December 2019

fred4 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I'm making do with BRP resto and Troll King. The problem, I find, is that in some cases I end up spamming it and the shield gets consumed immediately without healing, thus fails to activate Troll King. I'm still trying to get smarter with my rotation so I have Swallow Soul running at all times.

Still highlights what everyone talks about in that Magblade is too gear dependent.

I don't disagree.

The longer I play, the more I appreciate the vision of the original design team or at least the state of nightblades when I joined around the time of the console launch. In particular I find that I need decent (1.3K) stamina sustain for my magblade playstyle and I can see how stamblades need to invest far more into mag sustain than other stamina classes, if they want to shade and cloak. In other words, there was a method behind the original Siphoning Attacks and I am (only now) questioning whether the Morrowind sustain nerfs were justified. Getting that sustain only while attacking was a stroke of genius that emphasized the go for broke, onslaught (not the skill) playstyle of nightblades at the time. You had to commit to attack.

The ESO design team has frequently made blanket changes that looked balanced on paper, but that paid no regard to how classes actually play. What brought this home to me recently is playing magplar and sorc.

Magplar just sustains. It's the rune, you're thinking, but I use Restoring Focus in PvP, so that's not even it. I think I have about 1.7K mag sustain on the magplar, plus vMA resto and I'm fine. On magblade I run a ton of cost reduction and 2K+ magicka regen. I know I am on the extreme side in that regard, but still. What causes magblade to be so magicka hungry? I can only think it's the frequency with which you use Cloak, the Shade and other expensive skills (Fear?), compared to the average cost of skills on magplar that you actually use.

Sorc, I find remarkable for it's ability to do without stamina sustain. I think it's due to Streak being your choice above dodge rolls, so you can reserve your stamina exclusively for break free. This has a big effect on how effectively you can spec a sorc into magicka for shields, damage and healing.

I mention the sustain, because of the knock on effect on damage and healing. The less sustain you need, the more you can spec into the latter. The new Siphoning Attacks is nothing to be sneezed at, but I think it pales in comparison to the old, which gave you something seemingly ridiculous, like 1K stamina and magicka on attack. I say "seemingly", because when you analyze this a little bit, it was probably justified. Moreover, it required light attacks, which are by no means a consistent source of anything and which kept you out of cloak and on attack in order to sustain. Like I said, ingenious.

Since then, the other main thing that's happened are the various changes to Healing Ward. I have no problem running resto staff on one bar, to be honest. I've never been much of a 1H+S user and I don't see the movement speed reduction, while blocking, synergising with nightblade playstyles at all. We all know, though, how sensitive magblades are to Healing Ward changes. I always thought those changes were primarily directed at shield-stacking sorcs, whereas they always affected magblades the most. At the same time we lost Shadowy Disguise making every heal crit. That was the hidden ace magblades had up their sleeves, nerfed in the name of bug fixing, while perhaps again not thinking of how real a balance change that was. Does magblade need a burst heal? I'm not sure. Dark Cloak is a heal now. I think bringing back the "make all heal ticks crit" functionality of Shadowy Disguise may be all that magblade needs.

I’ve been thinking the exact same thing recently. I think the reason magplar’s require less sustain is pretty simple: defensive abilities cost more than offensive abilities.

Your typical magblade is only aggressive when they can outnumber opponents or attack without being attacked back. This requires a lot of cloak or kiting - which is expensive. A magblade’s toast if I start using sweeps and they don’t evade because I’m out healing and out damaging them at the same time.

On my magplar I run 1400 mag regen and sustain fine using resto heavy attacks. If I’m attacked - toppling, sweeps spam and keep pressure up. If I’m outnumbered or in a bad position mist - honour the dead - right back on offense. Works great. Best defense is a good offense is true because of how defensive abilities are so much more expensive.