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DKs need a better sustain tool than the current Combustion passive.
TheGreatBlackBear
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"When you apply Burning to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka. When you apply Poisoned to an enemy, you restore 500 Stamina."
Restoring 500 mag or stam when you inflict a status effect is inadequate. Especially if you're a
on support role. You have no real way to effectively proc that. Something more adequate would be like restore 750 mag every time you deal direct damage against a burning opponent and 750 stam for direct damage against a poisoned opponent with a once per second cool down.
Edited by TheGreatBlackBear on December 19, 2019 1:17PM Restoring 500 mag or stam when you inflict a status effect is inadequate. Especially if you're a
on support role. You have no real way to effectively proc that. Something more adequate would be like restore 750 mag every time you deal direct damage against a burning opponent and 750 stam for direct damage against a poisoned opponent with a once per second cool down.
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jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Either that, or some passive that gives way more consistent access to the burning/poisoned status effects.0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭750 mag/stam with a one second cooldown would be simply op. On stamDK venomous claw guarantees a poisoned proc with a 6 second duration. That means you could reasonably land 5 hits before the effect ends. 750 * 5 = 3750 stam, so more than twice what the skill originally costs (with even just one piece of medium armor equipped).
On magDK it would be even more ridiculous because if build right they can have an extremely high uptime on burning. 750 magicka every second would be worth at least 1000 mag regen in no CP. Thats simply far too good. So, as a stamDK main I'm against this proposal unless you find some reasonable numbers.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭750 mag/stam with a one second cooldown would be simply op. On stamDK venomous claw guarantees a poisoned proc with a 6 second duration. That means you could reasonably land 5 hits before the effect ends. 750 * 5 = 3750 stam, so more than twice what the skill originally costs (with even just one piece of medium armor equipped).
On magDK it would be even more ridiculous because if build right they can have an extremely high uptime on burning. 750 magicka every second would be worth at least 1000 mag regen in no CP. Thats simply far too good. So, as a stamDK main I'm against this proposal unless you find some reasonable numbers.
It's not exactly op. On a warden I get 2.5k mag or stam back from netch and I spend nothing but a global cool down. Using your stam DK example I'd spend about 2k stam to use claw and assuming I'm able to get 5 attacks off activate it's a gain of 1.5k stam. In practical terms that's not even one free cast of stone giant every other cast of claw.0 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭A sustain tool...like...heavy attacks?
For DPS heavy attacks scale poorly in raid. That's a couple seconds of not light attacking or activating abilities.
For healers heavy attacks mean your not healing, buffing, healing or otherwise supporting the group.
The same thing applies for tanks with the addition of not blocking while heavy attacking.
Heavy attacking is not desirable 99% of the time
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Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »
It's not exactly op. On a warden I get 2.5k mag or stam back from netch and I spend nothing but a global cool down. Using your stam DK example I'd spend about 2k stam to use claw and assuming I'm able to get 5 attacks off activate it's a gain of 1.5k stam. In practical terms that's not even one free cast of stone giant every other cast of claw.
While I agree that dks could use more Sustain this is not the way to go, it would be much too strong, especially in a Trial Setting.
The difference is that warden netch restores over 25 seconds. Stam Morph restores 4.4k stam over 25 seconds. Your proposal can restore up to 18.7k stam in the same period, thats more than 4 times the stam netch restores. It is also worded in a way where you dont have to apply the poisoned Status yourself but it being on the boss no matter the source, think Poisoned procs of 8 dds and the zen healer through the double dot poisons, and it will be on the boss Pretty much 100%. In Addition the dot ticks of claw and breath can proc Poison themselves while the dot is running so you dont even Need to recast claw every 5 seconds.
Will be even more problematic with Burning since mag dds will all have fire staves and Blockade of fire and the 100% increased Chance to proc Burning.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »750 mag/stam with a one second cooldown would be simply op. On stamDK venomous claw guarantees a poisoned proc with a 6 second duration. That means you could reasonably land 5 hits before the effect ends. 750 * 5 = 3750 stam, so more than twice what the skill originally costs (with even just one piece of medium armor equipped).
On magDK it would be even more ridiculous because if build right they can have an extremely high uptime on burning. 750 magicka every second would be worth at least 1000 mag regen in no CP. Thats simply far too good. So, as a stamDK main I'm against this proposal unless you find some reasonable numbers.
It's not exactly op. On a warden I get 2.5k mag or stam back from netch and I spend nothing but a global cool down. Using your stam DK example I'd spend about 2k stam to use claw and assuming I'm able to get 5 attacks off activate it's a gain of 1.5k stam. In practical terms that's not even one free cast of stone giant every other cast of claw.
Netch gives less than 5k resources over 25 seconds. So, even if your proposed passive would proc on average only once every 3 seconds it would give more than the netch. However it would have the potential to give much, much more (especially in PvE lol).
And mate, almost one free spammable + free venomous claw, thats ~2 free skills in 6 GDC just from one passive. Look at it in relation to time, no other class passive/skill has such a high potential of resources per second, except the NB passive that activates on kill. But killing something is obviously much more rarer than directly damaging something (especially in PvP).PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭I admit that the 750 is too much of a resource to get back. Perhaps 200 with the values doubled if an enemy you were fighting with the burning/poisoned status effect dies?Edited by TheGreatBlackBear on December 19, 2019 3:00PM1 -
Zer0_CooL✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sustain is good, what we need is a DoT buff, an execute, and increased range on fossilize (or just fix it) and also fix that god damn "stuck in charging HA" bug on the flame staff.0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »I admit that the 750 is too much of a resource to get back. Perhaps 200 with the values doubled if an enemy you were fighting with the burning/poisoned status effect dies?
Honestly, I don't dislike your original idea in principle. It just needs to have its numbers tweaked. Personally, I think a large amount of resource with a longer cooldown would be the best way to implement it, since it would work just as well in PvE as in PvP. As @Sanguinor2 mentioned, in raids you would have ~100% uptime anyway, no matter how short or long the cooldown is. In solo PvE like Maelstrom arena or PvP a longer cooldown would give you more time to get the full benefit of the passive.
How about ~900 resources with a ~4 seconds cooldown? Would be more in line with most other sustain passives/skills.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think that your idea has potential aswell if the value is adjusted accordingly.
The Problem with finding a good spot is that Sustain between classes is wildly inconsistent in General and gets even more inconsistent depending on the Situation.
The 900 recovery every 4 seconds that was put Forward would be About 450 effective mag/stam recovery at max which would not Benefit from any modifiers, aka it would be a bit weaker than templar rune. If you consider battle roar adding around 320 recovery if a 250 cost ultimate is used on cooldown, a dk with These passives would work out to be around 770 effective recovery under perfect circumstances.
Compared to for example nightblades who get 200 recovery from reave, around 600 recovery from siphoning strikes and 15% recovery across the board this might look like a good value.
If you would compare it to a pve magsorc for example tho the sorc would be the one in much more desperate Need of help since a pve magsorc gets some cost reduction and 10% mag recovery and thats it since dark conversion/deal doesnt get used in pve.
To summarize: I like the idea, finding a good value might be difficult since Sustain is very inconsistent depending on the Situation but this still is a very good Option that would be more consistent than what we have now on the combustion passive.
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »A sustain tool...like...heavy attacks?
For DPS heavy attacks scale poorly in raid. That's a couple seconds of not light attacking or activating abilities.
For healers heavy attacks mean your not healing, buffing, healing or otherwise supporting the group.
The same thing applies for tanks with the addition of not blocking while heavy attacking.
Heavy attacking is not desirable 99% of the time
For me everMartiniDaniels wrote: »Did anybody tested if combustion procs against wood elves and dunmers?
Dunmers will still get fire damage.Resistance is not something that will completely negate it.0 -
OG_Kaveman✭✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »A sustain tool...like...heavy attacks?
For DPS heavy attacks scale poorly in raid. That's a couple seconds of not light attacking or activating abilities.
For healers heavy attacks mean your not healing, buffing, healing or otherwise supporting the group.
The same thing applies for tanks with the addition of not blocking while heavy attacking.
Heavy attacking is not desirable 99% of the time
For me everMartiniDaniels wrote: »Did anybody tested if combustion procs against wood elves and dunmers?
Dunmers will still get fire damage.Resistance is not something that will completely negate it.
Any element specific resists negate the elements status effects. Meaning if you enchant your jewelry with resist fire, you are immune to burning like dark elf's are and if you enchant your jewelry with poison resist you get poisoned immunity, etc etc.0 -
lagrue✭✭✭✭✭
✭Combustion passive is amazing, I have 0 sustain issues. I have nearly 100% uptime of my burning status and absolutely 0 issues sustaining my rotation against 6m dummies and trial bosses."You must defeat me every time. I need defeat you only once"0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »A sustain tool...like...heavy attacks?
For DPS heavy attacks scale poorly in raid. That's a couple seconds of not light attacking or activating abilities.
For healers heavy attacks mean your not healing, buffing, healing or otherwise supporting the group.
The same thing applies for tanks with the addition of not blocking while heavy attacking.
Heavy attacking is not desirable 99% of the time
That's what makes combat dynamic. Not everything you NEED to do in combat, ensures you are providing the highest DPS. It's a choice. Do I need DPS or do I need resources.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I like the general idea of your suggestion because sustain on direct damage would encourage Dks to be agressive. And Dks should be rewarded for being agressive instead of being block bots.
I see that people compare it to netch ,rune or dark deal however those abilities can be used while you're retreating or on the move in PvP. This comparission can not be made just by looking at PvE dummy tests. You have to take the use conditions into account.
And if you do you'll realize combustion is not that great of a passive despite countless attempts to improve it. Making it proc on direct damage would be a good enabler for buffing Dk's fighting sustain ,without buffing Dk tanking. I realize OP's numbers may not be the perfect, but once again I like the theory a lot.Edited by Ragnarock41 on December 19, 2019 6:14PM1 -
mayasunrising✭✭✭✭✭DKs don't need anything. They're annoying enough already."And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ♥ Anaïs Nin
“There’s a difference between wanting to be looked at and wanting to be seen." ♥ Amanda Palmer
“A game is an opportunity to focus our energy, with relentless optimism, at something we’re good at (or getting better at) and enjoy. In other words, gameplay is the direct emotional opposite of depression.” ♥ Jane McGonigal
“They'll tell you you're too loud, that you need to wait your turn and ask the right people for permission. Do it anyway." ♥ Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez0 -
Wyrd88✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Did anybody tested if combustion procs against wood elves and dunmers?
Yes, did tested, and no, it's not procs, since you simply can't apply status effect to them.Edited by Wyrd88 on December 19, 2019 6:30PM2 -
jadarock✭✭✭✭✭mayasunrising wrote: »DKs don't need anything. They're annoying enough already.
I feel like mag dk sustain is iffy at best rn
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Long_Distance✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »A sustain tool...like...heavy attacks?
For DPS heavy attacks scale poorly in raid. That's a couple seconds of not light attacking or activating abilities.
For healers heavy attacks mean your not healing, buffing, healing or otherwise supporting the group.
The same thing applies for tanks with the addition of not blocking while heavy attacking.
Heavy attacking is not desirable 99% of the time
That's what makes combat dynamic. Not everything you NEED to do in combat, ensures you are providing the highest DPS. It's a choice. Do I need DPS or do I need resources.
I support your argument even though I main a stamDK and stustain is sometimes a bit tricky (from my personal perspective of PvP in no CP). Not every class should have the same features or the same ease of use as any other class.
DKs have counter balancing strengths that other classes are lacking.
With the same logic stamdens (who do have more consistant sustain than DKs) could argue "we want a stun and it should be as powerfull as fossilize" (and retain their Netch of course), or stamsorcs could want a DOT as good as venomous claw (and retain the crit heals from surge of course) and all of the former three would want a spammable as nice as (the current) jabs.
If everybody gets his thing you might as well fuse all classes into a single one. StamDK are in a nice spot atm, arguably top notch in solo PvP, not so much in group PvP, though. Is that a problem? Not in my view.
I don't think it's reasonable to try to balance classes in such a way that every class can perform every imaginable role with exactly the same efficiency as any other class. The outcome of such an effort can only be, that every class is just a generic one with the class skills just having different name tags on them.Edited by Long_Distance on December 19, 2019 6:55PM2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Did anybody tested if combustion procs against wood elves and dunmers?
Yes, did tested, and no, it's not procs, since you simply can't apply status effect to them.
Thanks!0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, no more buff to stam and magdk they are already op
No, not OP.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/499072/patch-5-2-5-pvp-tierlist/p1Edited by MartiniDaniels on December 20, 2019 10:14AM1 -
LuxLunae✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »"When you apply Burning to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka. When you apply Poisoned to an enemy, you restore 500 Stamina."
Restoring 500 mag or stam when you inflict a status effect is inadequate. Especially if you're a
on support role. You have no real way to effectively proc that. Something more adequate would be like restore 750 mag every time you deal direct damage against a burning opponent and 750 stam for direct damage against a poisoned opponent with a once per second cool down.
I disagree...
I have a stam DK orc that has more sustain than stam Templar redguard.
All due to the green dragon blood.
Apparrently the 2 hander stamina recov stacks with the green dragon blood stamina recov. So I can remove even more stam recov from the build and place it into weapon damage...or something else.
Unlike redguard which can't sustain fo shet...I realize now stam recov TRUMPS any time of reduction.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
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I disagree...
I have a stam DK orc that has more sustain than stam Templar redguard.
All due to the green dragon blood.
Apparrently the 2 hander stamina recov stacks with the green dragon blood stamina recov. So I can remove even more stam recov from the build and place it into weapon damage...or something else.
Unlike redguard which can't sustain fo shet...I realize now stam recov TRUMPS any time of reduction.
l2p(otion) issue. Using any stam restore potion will give you the same Sustain buff as gdb and with repentenance slotted you get even 10% more on top of that (and that is ignoring the 480 recovery from rune).Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
OG_Kaveman✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
I disagree...
I have a stam DK orc that has more sustain than stam Templar redguard.
All due to the green dragon blood.
Apparrently the 2 hander stamina recov stacks with the green dragon blood stamina recov. So I can remove even more stam recov from the build and place it into weapon damage...or something else.
Unlike redguard which can't sustain fo shet...I realize now stam recov TRUMPS any time of reduction.
l2p(otion) issue. Using any stam restore potion will give you the same Sustain buff as gdb and with repentenance slotted you get even 10% more on top of that (and that is ignoring the 480 recovery from rune).
rally gives the same 10% recovery as repentance.0
