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Sword and board still incredibly problematic
Fawn4287
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In PVP sword and board seems more prevalent than ever, particularly as a backbar option for magica builds. There are a few key problems I see with it how it currently sits.
You can run 2 defensive sets but a sword and board still offers more ‘bang for your buck’ in terms of general mitigation especially when approaching near execute range, coupled with sturdy, CP and the passives from the weapon line, someone can run around with 3 offensive sets and still be incredibly tanky purely thanks to sword and board. For example a pure light armour resto healer isn’t surviving a beat down from 4+ people without great difficulty but that seems trivial for a pure tank build.
Block casting burst heals is incredibly forgiving and easy, leaving even the most careless players with a consistently viable defensive strategy, even when outnumbered and near execute range.
Sword and board ultimate is too cheap for the time it lasts and the mitigation it offers, compared to other defensive ultimates, it allows too much offensive potential coupled with sheer mitigation for what it is and what it costs, compared to an ultimate that offers something like major protection, auto block is much more effective in most situations.
A way I see balancing sword and board is to further lower the damage the weapon line offers to reduce the healing whilst on that bar to a reasonable level given how incredibly powerful a defensive option it is or to make a battle spirit change in which ability effectiveness is reduced by 50% whilst blocking in order to make tankier builds blocking have some sort of downside to continuing to hold block other than just the resource cost, in the same manor dodge roll or streak spamming does.
You can run 2 defensive sets but a sword and board still offers more ‘bang for your buck’ in terms of general mitigation especially when approaching near execute range, coupled with sturdy, CP and the passives from the weapon line, someone can run around with 3 offensive sets and still be incredibly tanky purely thanks to sword and board. For example a pure light armour resto healer isn’t surviving a beat down from 4+ people without great difficulty but that seems trivial for a pure tank build.
Block casting burst heals is incredibly forgiving and easy, leaving even the most careless players with a consistently viable defensive strategy, even when outnumbered and near execute range.
Sword and board ultimate is too cheap for the time it lasts and the mitigation it offers, compared to other defensive ultimates, it allows too much offensive potential coupled with sheer mitigation for what it is and what it costs, compared to an ultimate that offers something like major protection, auto block is much more effective in most situations.
A way I see balancing sword and board is to further lower the damage the weapon line offers to reduce the healing whilst on that bar to a reasonable level given how incredibly powerful a defensive option it is or to make a battle spirit change in which ability effectiveness is reduced by 50% whilst blocking in order to make tankier builds blocking have some sort of downside to continuing to hold block other than just the resource cost, in the same manor dodge roll or streak spamming does.
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Ariades_swe✭✭✭✭✭You seem special so why take the time explaining?
No point going snb these days when there is
BRP dw and resto in the game.Edited by Ariades_swe on December 17, 2019 8:58PM4 -
xWarbrain✭✭✭✭✭
Okay, I'll explain further.
You should learn to play because this is an issue YOU have with magicka players running SnB. Instead of suggesting a nerf to an entire skill line because YOU have difficulty killing people using it, you should come up with a build that does more damage.
I don't use SnB. I have no problem fighting someone who does. I'm magicka and use 3 offensive sets. Are you going to want Resto Staff skill line nerfed next when everyone switches to that if SnB got nerfed?
Nerfing anything just causes a chain reaction. Unless something is broken (like shield bash necros a while back) figure out a way to beat it instead of suggesting they make it easier for YOU.XB1 NA
Your nerf suggestion is dumb. Learn to counter other players instead of having the game rebuilt to your ability level.7 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ariades_swe wrote: »You seem special so why take the time explaining?
No point going snb these days when there is
BRP dw and resto in the game.
The cost of blade cloak + blocking with brp dual wield is more expensive and offers less mitigation than just sword and board blocking1 -
Akinos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.Edited by Akinos on December 17, 2019 9:10PMPC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp5 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.
Dots maul rollie pollie builds and you certainly cant roll cast heals0 -
Freakin_Hytte✭✭✭✭✭
Okay, I'll explain further.
You should learn to play because this is an issue YOU have with magicka players running SnB. Instead of suggesting a nerf to an entire skill line because YOU have difficulty killing people using it, you should come up with a build that does more damage.
I don't use SnB. I have no problem fighting someone who does. I'm magicka and use 3 offensive sets. Are you going to want Resto Staff skill line nerfed next when everyone switches to that if SnB got nerfed?
Nerfing anything just causes a chain reaction. Unless something is broken (like shield bash necros a while back) figure out a way to beat it instead of suggesting they make it easier for YOU.
This right here is the problem of 95% of all the nerf threads and why I just think zos should create certain criteria that must be upheld and otherwise the mods will close the thread down. They are too easy going on these badly argumented rants how "op" something they died from or couldn't kill is.Edited by Freakin_Hytte on December 17, 2019 9:17PM4 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
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Dots maul rollie pollie builds and you certainly cant roll cast heals
You can rollcancel heals….. this might explain tho why you find Sword&shield so bad….Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.8 -
Akinos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.
Dots maul rollie pollie builds and you certainly cant roll cast heals
u wot m8?PC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp3 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.
Dots maul rollie pollie builds and you certainly cant roll cast heals
This man is still playing in U23 (or even before). The magical world where DoTs are worth running...
And you can definitely roll cast vigor.3 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Misinterpreting ani cancelling vigor in to dodge roll certainly isn’t mid roll popping rally0 -
wild_kmacdb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭So basically ... nerf blocking is what you’re asking for?
You can’t think of any counter play to someone that is borderline stationary, unable to mount a significant offence, prone to having their stamina resource drained, vulnerable to CC, still takes damage...
??3 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Freakin_Hytte wrote: »
Okay, I'll explain further.
You should learn to play because this is an issue YOU have with magicka players running SnB. Instead of suggesting a nerf to an entire skill line because YOU have difficulty killing people using it, you should come up with a build that does more damage.
I don't use SnB. I have no problem fighting someone who does. I'm magicka and use 3 offensive sets. Are you going to want Resto Staff skill line nerfed next when everyone switches to that if SnB got nerfed?
Nerfing anything just causes a chain reaction. Unless something is broken (like shield bash necros a while back) figure out a way to beat it instead of suggesting they make it easier for YOU.
This right here is the problem of 95% of all the nerf threads and why I just think zos should create certain criteria that must be upheld and otherwise the mods will close the thread down. They are too easy going on these badly argumented rants how "op" something they died from or couldn't kill is.
If arguing logically or with some evidence was a prerequisite to posting there wouldn’t be much on the forums, and people writing “I run x,y,z and have no problem” whilst neglecting to mention its from the back of the zerg or whilst attached to their ball groups healer like an uncut umbilical cord are the bulk of the contextless gratification seeking posts and comments.0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.
Dots maul rollie pollie builds and you certainly cant roll cast heals
This man is still playing in U23 (or even before). The magical world where DoTs are worth running...
And you can definitely roll cast vigor.
You’ve obviously never seen a rollie pollie try to out roll a channeled ultimate or verse a mag dk0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »So basically ... nerf blocking is what you’re asking for?
You can’t think of any counter play to someone that is borderline stationary, unable to mount a significant offence, prone to having their stamina resource drained, vulnerable to CC, still takes damage...
??
Not whilst they are cc immune, cast 2-3 burst heals and are back to full health0 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.
Exactly!! At least someone get it!1 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭Magicka builds blocking and healing themselves while in execute range? oh noes. Still not as bad as stam rollie pollie builds being able to dodge roll 5 times in a row and take 0 damage while getting all their health back from execute range. At least people blocking still take damage.
Dots maul rollie pollie builds and you certainly cant roll cast heals
You should try using a heal skill and then cancel the animation with a rolldodge. Or pop vigor and rolldodge a few times until your health is back to full...0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Un-nerf DoTs, Bleeds, and Defiles first. OP isn't wrong, but SnB block healing didn't feel this oppressive until multiple avenues of counterplay were all annihlated by sweeping nerfs.
Still wouldn't shed a tear if PvP blocking got a stacking cost increase.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP2 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem isn’t blocking or sword and board.
The problem is you’re playing in CP enabled PvP, where you can O to the P any build as a tank. Add in the O to the Pness that is healing, and you have yourself a Tanky mag class that can also t bag you afterwards.3 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem is you’re playing in CP enabled PvP, where you can O to the P any build as a tank. Add in the O to the Pness that is healing, and you have yourself a Tanky mag class that can also t bag you afterwards.
Self-healing (and sustain) is reduced in No-CP, but group healing is still ridiculously strong. Those CP solo tanky damage dealers can't even touch the stacks of healbots on No-CP, and I don't want any lame excuses that ESO PvP isn't designed for solo play. You can't keep a straight face and say this PvP is designed for serious competitive group play.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP0 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭i understand where your coming from but nerfing block isnt the answer.
some builds use snb as a damage bar. and some use it defensively.
tbh if anything needs to be changed then we need more defiles. block healers used to be easy to deal with because you had defiles on reverb and incap etc. but they have been removed so now...
and finally, maybe try adjusting your playstyle a little. try stunning into execute. or perhaps just disengage.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some tries to kill another person, that person uses skills to stop them. Where is the problem in this?
I don’t get all these people wanting pvp to be a bunch of one shots without counters. I’ve never had an issue with S&B users, just sometimes missing that they used the S&B ultimate. I haven’t thought S&B was overtuned since they removed defile.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Revokus✭✭✭✭✭I wish they would make Ice staff as good as Sword and Board for magicka but it simply isn't. Stamina regen from heavy attacks and better passives are far better than what an ice staff can offer.Playing since January 23, 20160 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I wish they would make Ice staff as good as Sword and Board for magicka but it simply isn't. Stamina regen from heavy attacks and better passives are far better than what an ice staff can offer.
I’d check out some ice staff with desert rose builds. You can be really annoying as mag with an ice staff, you just need to use one of those sets that return mag when you’re hit.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem is you’re playing in CP enabled PvP, where you can O to the P any build as a tank. Add in the O to the Pness that is healing, and you have yourself a Tanky mag class that can also t bag you afterwards.
Self-healing (and sustain) is reduced in No-CP, but group healing is still ridiculously strong. Those CP solo tanky damage dealers can't even touch the stacks of healbots on No-CP, and I don't want any lame excuses that ESO PvP isn't designed for solo play. You can't keep a straight face and say this PvP is designed for serious competitive group play.
what are you even talking about?
no cp PvP is good but the game is competitive for solo play?
wat
Eso literally was not designed for solo play. It’s an MMO, the Ms stand for Massive Mulitiplayer....1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
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what are you even talking about?
no cp PvP is good but the game is competitive for solo play?
wat
Eso literally was not designed for solo play. It’s an MMO, the Ms stand for Massive Mulitiplayer....
It also isnt designed to be competitive PvP.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Eso literally was not designed for solo play. It’s an MMO, the Ms stand for Massive Mulitiplayer....
Then we should disable solo queueing for Cyro or BGs, yes?
The Tank Meta favors the zerg, and No-CP favors the zerg even harder than CP does.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Freakin_Hytte wrote: »
Okay, I'll explain further.
You should learn to play because this is an issue YOU have with magicka players running SnB. Instead of suggesting a nerf to an entire skill line because YOU have difficulty killing people using it, you should come up with a build that does more damage.
I don't use SnB. I have no problem fighting someone who does. I'm magicka and use 3 offensive sets. Are you going to want Resto Staff skill line nerfed next when everyone switches to that if SnB got nerfed?
Nerfing anything just causes a chain reaction. Unless something is broken (like shield bash necros a while back) figure out a way to beat it instead of suggesting they make it easier for YOU.
This right here is the problem of 95% of all the nerf threads and why I just think zos should create certain criteria that must be upheld and otherwise the mods will close the thread down. They are too easy going on these badly argumented rants how "op" something they died from or couldn't kill is.
Thank. You. For *** sake, it's actually getting ridiculous how many people come onto the forums and cry about the next thing that's stopping them from getting a kill, or the next thing that's killing them.Some tries to kill another person, that person uses skills to stop them. Where is the problem in this?
I don’t get all these people wanting pvp to be a bunch of one shots without counters. I’ve never had an issue with S&B users, just sometimes missing that they used the S&B ultimate. I haven’t thought S&B was overtuned since they removed defile.
They want PvP to be a bunch of one shots without any counters that would counter their own tools. That's the key. Look at any nerf thread like this, and you'll see they always want to strengthen their own ***, and weaken everybody else's.
The real problem is, Zenimax has catered to this sort of whining. So many nerfs have come from people wanting their own *** buffed, and everybody else's nerfed.0
