Maintenance for the week of March 25:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 28, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

Should penetration be buff as dps pvp counter play?

phoenixkungfu
phoenixkungfu
✭✭✭✭
Hi everyone, it is my belief that penetration should be buff. During a past former patch. Penetration was nerfed as a attempt to create more player to use different sets and traits in pvp. The result was a success. But at what cost? It is my belief that the cost was it GREATLY BUFF THE HEALING TANK DPS BUILDS. I believe builds that heal as defense are now overpreforming because of this change that domino to the meta today. Penetration is simply underperforming. It is my belief that a player should be able to play as they want. In pvp if a player can stank resistance to 30 plus I. Then a dps as counter play should be allowed to do the same. Penetration needs a buff
  • JumpmanLane
    JumpmanLane
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Nah, buff oblivion damage, bleeds, DOTS etc...or nah buff pen too. More to the point. Revert the nerfs to every thing!

    Lol op shouldn’t you be asking for nerfs lol. #NERFSORC!
    Edited by JumpmanLane on December 9, 2019 2:39AM
  • nafensoriel
    nafensoriel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Penetration, in general, is a terrible statistic. It's a forced gating mechanic that doesn't really add anything to combat complexity except as an arbitrary "do you have x buff" mechanic.

    I would not cry one bit if penetration vanished tomorrow.
  • Zer0_CooL
    Zer0_CooL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi everyone, it is my belief ... It is my belief ... I believe ... It is my belief

    https://youtu.be/GIQn8pab8Vc
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I seriously doubt Zos would consider this if it is not already in their combat changes they are already in the process of rolling out.

    I also do not think OP's ideas around this make any sense. OP says it should be a buff but that makes no sense as that would not mean the values obtainable would be different. Granted, the wording is odd so I may misunderstand what OP is trying to articulate. Regardless, it does not seem the idea is getting much attention so it does not seem many agree.
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
    ✭✭✭✭
    Many readers won't reply if other are allowed to bash to post. It's just how it work.
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi everyone, it is my belief that penetration should be buff. During a past former patch. Penetration was nerfed as a attempt to create more player to use different sets and traits in pvp. The result was a success. But at what cost? It is my belief that the cost was it GREATLY BUFF THE HEALING TANK DPS BUILDS. I believe builds that heal as defense are now overpreforming because of this change that domino to the meta today. Penetration is simply underperforming. It is my belief that a player should be able to play as they want. In pvp if a player can stank resistance to 30 plus I. Then a dps as counter play should be allowed to do the same. Penetration needs a buff

    That was somewhat hard to read, but..

    There already are ways to stack a LOT of penetration and it is very effective. There are also couple things like Corrosive Armor for stamDK to smash "trashcans" in seconds, also Onslaught, but it was already nerfed a bit and now it has still potential to be devastating but with shorter duration can have counterplay.

    We do not need complicated nerfs, buffs or mechanics changes.. i mean me, an all my friends i know are packing up people left and right without issues, those who cannot most likely do just not have enough damage and/or their burst combo is not going as well as they think it is going.

    In CP campaign against good targets need CC and combo to go perfect, if someone gives "free cc immunities", in example less skilled group spamming stuff but unable to kill = too low damage and badly timed CC. In No-CP things obviously melt even faster in right hands.

    It is not "bashing" when people say their opinion, you are writing nerf and buff requests on a game forum, people are responding with their opinions from years of playing this game with long experience and many having a good view on the big picture and how delicate the balance is.

    You play a magicka sorc, so you should know you can nuke hard with good enough Pen builds.. unless you have troubles with gaming skills and instead of learning you want nerfs and buffs? People are tired with nerfs and buffs. We all want pvp "content" to be something new and fun instead of nerfs and buffs based on forum troll & bait type of nerf request spam from people who cannot accept that they are not experienced enough to make requests.

    I know it can seem easier to try and change the game instead of just getting more experienced. I suggest playing all classes and all types of pvp for a few years, you will have more mature vision then hopefully. :)

    It is good to discuss things, but for pvp there already are such discussions going on, no need for new demands.. tank meta - more like burst meta with dedicated healers being strong when paired up with good burst brawlers. Nothing wrong with that imo? AND trying to go after healing is complicated, since it will affect pve and is a delicate situation. You would not be selfish enough to wanna ignore that side of the game completely would you?

    Eventually they will update CP, i expect then things get turned around a lot.. and the class/skill audit is still not finished also. So personally i`d wait until it is done and then can start the adjustments.
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
    ✭✭✭✭
    I really like your point of view. Thx you for taking the time to write it. I understand where you are coming from with your point of view. Overall all I dont believe any of the changes I ask for will effect pve. Also I understand the feeling of no more nerfs as a pet sorc main. I have seen my share of nerfs. However Unfortunately 1 nerf leads to another nerf and no it honestly takes nerfs to balance nerfs. A good example is nerf on sharpening and spinner. Lead to players being tanky. And fights lasting longer.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Hi everyone, it is my belief that penetration should be buff. During a past former patch. Penetration was nerfed as a attempt to create more player to use different sets and traits in pvp. The result was a success. But at what cost? It is my belief that the cost was it GREATLY BUFF THE HEALING TANK DPS BUILDS. I believe builds that heal as defense are now overpreforming because of this change that domino to the meta today. Penetration is simply underperforming. It is my belief that a player should be able to play as they want. In pvp if a player can stank resistance to 30 plus I. Then a dps as counter play should be allowed to do the same. Penetration needs a buff

    No

    You know what's the playing style that benefits the most with more penetration? Ganking. Do you want PvP to become a gank fest?

    It is quite easy to stack penetration in this game, you just need a sharpen weapon, the lover mundus, some sets (spinner, spriggan, etc) and between 51 a 100 CP points in Spell erosion/Pierceing. If you want more, you can go with LA, or use ultis like Onslaught.

    Just by using a sharpen weapon, 51 points into spell erosion, lady and spinner you can get around 15k pen and that's a lot

    If you have problems killing other players, work your playing style rather than coming here asking for buffs or nerfs that benefit you. This is not a FPS in which the offensive is all, here you must know how to balance offensive and defensive and if you don't know the later... sorry, then you will never git gud
    Edited by Xvorg on December 9, 2019 3:06PM
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
    ✭✭✭✭
    I disagree I believe you should be able to play as you want. I believe in balance and counter gameplay. If a player what's to be a pure and true dps. I believe that player should have a balance option to achieve that. There just isn't enough options to counter player stacking resistance. 15k penetration vs 33k max plus is simply not balance. As far as gameplay of playstyles I believe this is why mechanics of blocking, dodge roll and having a buddy in a group to heal you is important. I simply don't believe in gameplay of a tank dps that is also a self healer. These builds exist because the penetration value cap is less then half the value of resistance cap in pvp.

    Also the power of some ultimate are only encouraging tank meta like onslaught.
    Edited by phoenixkungfu on December 9, 2019 7:45PM
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I disagree I believe you should be able to play as you want. I believe in balance and counter gameplay. If a player what's to be a pure and true dps. I believe that player should have a balance option to achieve that. There just isn't enough options to counter player stacking resistance. 15k penetration vs 33k max plus is simply not balance. As far as gameplay of playstyles I believe this is why mechanics of blocking, dodge roll and having a buddy in a group to heal you is important. I simply don't believe in gameplay of a tank dps that is also a self healer. These builds exist because the penetration value cap is less then half the value of resistance cap in pvp.

    Also the power of some ultimate are only encouraging tank meta like onslaught.

    You can play as you want, and that's perfect. Another story is being competitive and that's when the word "meta" makes its appearance. If you want to be competitive you have to follow the meta. I don't like meta in any game, so I try to stay as far as possible from being competitive.

    15k pen vs 33k resistance makes perfect sense. Here you are not going to kill an enemy by pew pewing, that's a lazy design. Here you have to follow a strategy that involves resource management, combination of skills, use of defensive (LoS, Block, Dodgeroll, shields, healing, etc), kiting, use of CCs, escaping from the fight whenever it is possible, allies help, etc. If anyone is able to pew pew from afar, what's the point of all the above mentioned mechanics?

    Anyway, as you pointed out, everyone should be able to play as s/he wants, so under your own opinion, pew pew is deirable and healbot not? Why? Are they cheating or something like that?

    Please, l2p before asking for nerfs. Any nerf to one skill impactos not only the playing style you are trying to punish, but many others. If you are still missing what I tried to tell you, I'll repeat it again:

    "Extra penetration favors mostly a ganking playing style... as a response to that, players tend to build even tankier than before"

    Or do you really think the story ends up with the tank accepting you have more penetration? Don't be so naive.
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
    ✭✭✭✭
    In group play or zergs. Player are building to be dps tanks. Mainly because 1 weak link can equal a bomb to kill group.
    In smaller scale to solo. Players are looking to do damage. Mainly because if you get zerg down you are going to die anyway.

    The broken is when a zerg group play build became a small scale to solo gameplay. Its easy to see then why this gameplay isn't working. It's all based on penetration nerfs.
    Which nerf dps
    And
    Buff tanks that heal while doing dps
  • kojou
    kojou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Sharpened used to be double what it is now, but the developers chose to halve it in order to balance weapon traits rather than buff other traits to sharpened's level. It was also the unequivocal best in slot trait at the time. You also have nerfs to the Night Mother's Gaze and Sunderflame sets, which were sets that offered unique penetration debuffs.

    In other words this (more penetration buffs and debuffs) is not a direction I think the developers want to go.
    Playing since beta...
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many readers won't reply if other are allowed to bash to post. It's just how it work.

    Readers tend to reply if they feel the topic has value or controverial. It is just how it works.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    In group play or zergs. Player are building to be dps tanks. Mainly because 1 weak link can equal a bomb to kill group.
    In smaller scale to solo. Players are looking to do damage. Mainly because if you get zerg down you are going to die anyway.

    The broken is when a zerg group play build became a small scale to solo gameplay. Its easy to see then why this gameplay isn't working. It's all based on penetration nerfs.
    Which nerf dps
    And
    Buff tanks that heal while doing dps

    Sorry, but that assumption is childishly straightforward. What makes you think a buff to penetration is going discourage tanking?

    To kill any player in this game you need certain level of pen (around 15k). If you buff pen, let's say, doubling sharpen (as it used to be), Most players are going to sit at 15k pen anyway, while dropping sharpen, or lady, or any other stat that increases pen. In turn, they are going to look for... MORE TANKINESS, which is the obvious answer.

    Even more, extra pen means Stamina specs are unaffected for the change, doing more dmg while keeping the very same tanky set up, and if they face some problems regarding dmg, they just need to drop some pen, to get even more tankiness whie retaining dmg power. And what was presented as a solution against tankiness ends up as an encouragement to build unstoppable juggernauts
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • TBois
    TBois
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Someone else posted what I believe would be the best route to combat the tanky meta and over use of impen, make impenatrable affect crit heals. If you wear impen, people cant crit you but you wont have crit heals.
    Current Guilds: Fantasia
    Former Guilds: Decibel, Hagnado, Lemon Party

    PC/NA
    T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
    An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
    Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
    Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD

    Youtube
  • Goregrinder
    Goregrinder
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    It is my belief...that I believe.......... that MY belief is real, and not just a belief.
  • phoenixkungfu
    phoenixkungfu
    ✭✭✭✭
    Math is sound and PROVEN. A TRUE DPS that looks for pure damage will destroy a build looking to have all stats in term of healing, dps, and tanking. Build that is looking to stack resistance in pvp would get nuked for trading 1stat into anything other then defense. This is 1v1. however 1vx

    In group play build like what is meta tanky builds would shine with a healer. bring back a healer role.

    This is the game roots and in my opinion when the game took a turn for the worst. It is the issue at the root of the problem. Issue of to tanky WAS NEVER A ISSUE BEFORE PENETRATION NERFS. I was there to see it. I been though all these changes. I say don't just revert the changes but fix them all together with my suggestions.
    GAMEPLAY BALANCE
    equal penetration for resistance.
  • kojou
    kojou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Math is sound and PROVEN. A TRUE DPS that looks for pure damage will destroy a build looking to have all stats in term of healing, dps, and tanking. Build that is looking to stack resistance in pvp would get nuked for trading 1stat into anything other then defense. This is 1v1. however 1vx

    In group play build like what is meta tanky builds would shine with a healer. bring back a healer role.

    This is the game roots and in my opinion when the game took a turn for the worst. It is the issue at the root of the problem. Issue of to tanky WAS NEVER A ISSUE BEFORE PENETRATION NERFS. I was there to see it. I been though all these changes. I say don't just revert the changes but fix them all together with my suggestions.
    GAMEPLAY BALANCE
    equal penetration for resistance.

    The thing you have to realize is that these changes are never simple. Balance in this game is not just applied to group Cyrodiil PvP and tanks vs damage. If you add another penetration bonus then you have to work out what are the consequences in all aspects of game play (e.g. Ganking, Small Man, 1vX, Dueling, Battlegrounds, Trials, Dungeons). Each of these areas could have negative consequences to game play that would have to be thought out by adding a new penetration buff.

    There were good reasons why Sharpened, Night Mother's Gaze, and Sunderflame were all nerfed. In some ways I preferred the meta since it added some variety to what sets players ran in trials, but it also makes those sets essentially required equipment with no substitutions. The same thing would happen with a new penetration skill. It would become a requirement that everyone would have to run to be optimized (not to mention that there would be a bit of power creep since you would drop some penetration from your CP allocation and apply it to other damage types) and would be one more buff that you would have to keep up in pretty much all content. Divines help us if it is a class skill that only one class gets...

    Anyway... my point is a change like this would have far reaching consequences and would likely cause a lot more changes to other areas to fully balance it out, and by then would it really add up to make more fun and interesting game-play to have one more precious skill slot that is consumed by this now required skill?

    Edited by kojou on December 10, 2019 5:13PM
    Playing since beta...
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Math is sound and PROVEN. A TRUE DPS that looks for pure damage will destroy a build looking to have all stats in term of healing, dps, and tanking. Build that is looking to stack resistance in pvp would get nuked for trading 1stat into anything other then defense. This is 1v1. however 1vx

    In group play build like what is meta tanky builds would shine with a healer. bring back a healer role.

    This is the game roots and in my opinion when the game took a turn for the worst. It is the issue at the root of the problem. Issue of to tanky WAS NEVER A ISSUE BEFORE PENETRATION NERFS. I was there to see it. I been though all these changes. I say don't just revert the changes but fix them all together with my suggestions.
    GAMEPLAY BALANCE
    equal penetration for resistance.

    Sure?

    I think you have a serious case of amnesia. Maybe Kodi helps you remember those times

    Edited by Xvorg on December 10, 2019 5:28PM
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • jadarock
    jadarock
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can stack pen just fine. My magdk is sitting at roughly 16k without buffs/debuffs.

    Healing and defile are a few things that need looked at though
Sign In or Register to comment.