Healers/Ballgroups/Premades Are Outperforming in Dragonhold

Fur_like_snow · November 2019

Correct. You can tab target someone but that doesn’t mean your skills are going to land on that player. Test it out for yourself. I’ve been fighting the same AD ball group every night this camp and I switch out to DW from 2H because trying to single target a player in a group like that is frustrating. Only aoe skills work but not very well it most cases.

universal_wrath · November 2019

Even with much healing, good player can coordinate ulti dump healers from 100% to 0% in seconds. I mostly play random and sometimes duo with my friend and we fight premades a lot. Ulti dump and singling healer has always worked for us. Sometimes we have problem if we fight against 2 healer, but every team has a weak link, destroy it and you can destroy the whole team.

SoixanteNeuf · November 2019

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.

I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.

Currently Battle Spirit:
-Increase Health by 5000
-Reduce damage taken by 50%
-Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
-Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m in Cyrodiil

Add:
-Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%

I personally think it should be diminishing returns, so the first "healing received" stack/heal isn't reduced but the subsequent ones from other players are, exponentially.

This way, it'll reduce stalemating/ballgrouping via :

Retaining the usefulness of healers (in very small numbers. ideally just 1) and discourage group compositions from stacking healers to stalemate.
Discourage ball groups from sticking together in large numbers. They'll gain more of a healing advantage by splitting up.
Punishing bg compositions with more than 1 healer, since the 2nd healer will have significantly decreased utility = less stalemating.

It would help if they increased dot damage by 10-20% as well as reinstate dizzy stun.

nafensoriel · November 2019

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.

I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.

Currently Battle Spirit:
-Increase Health by 5000
-Reduce damage taken by 50%
-Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
-Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m in Cyrodiil

Add:
-Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%

I personally think it should be diminishing returns, so the first "healing received" stack/heal isn't reduced but the subsequent ones from other players are, exponentially.

This way, it'll reduce stalemating/ballgrouping via :
Retaining the usefulness of healers (in very small numbers. ideally just 1) and discourage group compositions from stacking healers to stalemate.

Discourage ball groups from sticking together in large numbers. They'll gain more of a healing advantage by splitting up.

Punishing bg compositions with more than 1 healer, since the 2nd healer will have significantly decreased utility = less stalemating.

It would help if they increased dot damage by 10-20% as well as reinstate dizzy stun.

With that change, ball groups would just slot more healers and you would still get farmed. Diminishing returns don't matter when you cant scale YOUR healing. Ball groups are full groups. They can scale far better than zergs or smalls.

Anything you do to nerf a ball group will proportionally nerf everyone else even harder.
In fact, in regards to ball groups, the AOE cap removal was the ONLY change in HISTORY that actually HELPED the zerg rather than hurt it. It is also the ONLY metric that will scale against the ball group. If you set AOE damage to be like VD and scale up the more people are in the effect you could eventually reach a point where the few could wreck the ball.

Trouble is the ball would just spread out and still farm you. That is the reality.

Iskiab · November 2019

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.

I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.

Currently Battle Spirit:
-Increase Health by 5000
-Reduce damage taken by 50%
-Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
-Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m in Cyrodiil

Add:
-Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%

I personally think it should be diminishing returns, so the first "healing received" stack/heal isn't reduced but the subsequent ones from other players are, exponentially.

This way, it'll reduce stalemating/ballgrouping via :
Retaining the usefulness of healers (in very small numbers. ideally just 1) and discourage group compositions from stacking healers to stalemate.

Discourage ball groups from sticking together in large numbers. They'll gain more of a healing advantage by splitting up.

Punishing bg compositions with more than 1 healer, since the 2nd healer will have significantly decreased utility = less stalemating.

It would help if they increased dot damage by 10-20% as well as reinstate dizzy stun.

What stalemate? There’s never a stalemate in ballgroup fighting. At best engagements will last a couple minutes until there’s a victor.

ecru · November 2019

pvp healing is has gotten incredibly easy and is mostly braindead, so i kind of agree with the OP. purges/cleanses through ritual and purge are way way way way way too accessible and way too good, making dots and debuffs almost entirely useless as they're usually removed shortly after they're used. the opportunity cost with abilities that remove debuffs and dots has generally been out of whack for a very, very long time, with one cast of purge or ritual mitigating much much more damage than even some ultimates.

when you can cast an ability and mitigate more damage than an ult will heal, something is broken. purge bots should not be a thing. one ability should never be so good that you have one person whose sole existence is to just cast that ability over and over again. when a mechanic like that exists in your game, as a developer, you've failed.

dots and debuffs need more staying power, right now it's just too easy for someone who doesn't even know that you've been debuffed or had dots placed on you to remove those all of those debuffs and dots by just pressing a button that will automatically remove them. a mechanic like this isn't inherently bad, but when there are no cooldowns in ESO, abilities like this being spammable while also removing more than one dot/debuff per cast on multiple players at a time are extremely imbalanced.

why, as a healer, should you be able to do half of your job by just standing around, not targeting anyone in particular, and hitting one button? half of healing--removing dots/debuffs--should never be that easy.

Abyssmol · November 2019

Wow the OP is in multiples discussion asking for nerfs. Where does he/she find the time to get better.

Healers/Ballgroups/Premades makes Sorc OP. NerfSorc.com

mocap · November 2019

im 99% PvE player, but yesterday saw that ball group in Cyro. That was actually impressive.
- permanent super speed for all players
- superior coordination, they moving like synchronized bots
- absolutely unstopable for anything, their players health never droped even for 20% as i observe it from distance
- didn't kill everything on site, they actually "chu chu train" near me without any attention. So i think they mostly use attacks based on direction of movement. More like a death train, rather than ball.

Good luck that 1vsX cool dudes dealing with such encounters.

5cript · November 2019

mocap wrote: »

im 99% PvE player, but yesterday saw that ball group in Cyro. That was actually impressive. [...].

Thats normal in Cyro. Uncoordinated groups can only win against that with a far superior number of players (and maybe siege).

Issue is, we see the same in BGs with just 4 people. A premade BG group with dedicated healer cannot be beaten, unless you outskill them as a group significantly. With proper MMR matchmaking (which we currently dont have btw) its not possible.

But even without coordination, a dedicated healer is an invincibility buff.

And even even! without a dedicated healer. Look at all the tank trolls in flag games. Its just no fun.

Iskiab · November 2019

mocap wrote: »

im 99% PvE player, but yesterday saw that ball group in Cyro. That was actually impressive.
- permanent super speed for all players
- superior coordination, they moving like synchronized bots
- absolutely unstopable for anything, their players health never droped even for 20% as i observe it from distance
- didn't kill everything on site, they actually "chu chu train" near me without any attention. So i think they mostly use attacks based on direction of movement. More like a death train, rather than ball.

Good luck that 1vsX cool dudes dealing with such encounters.

Basicly yea, that’s how it works. Add onto that 1vX builds usually rely on being tanky and splitting players and bursting one player at a time. Small scalers are basicly the same setup too.... yea, zero chance.

It’s the equivalent of PvE players running around in tanky solo specs complaining they’re having trouble doing trial content.

technohic · November 2019

5cript wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

im 99% PvE player, but yesterday saw that ball group in Cyro. That was actually impressive. [...].

Thats normal in Cyro. Uncoordinated groups can only win against that with a far superior number of players (and maybe siege).

Issue is, we see the same in BGs with just 4 people. A premade BG group with dedicated healer cannot be beaten, unless you outskill them as a group significantly. With proper MMR matchmaking (which we currently dont have btw) its not possible.

But even without coordination, a dedicated healer is an invincibility buff.

And even even! without a dedicated healer. Look at all the tank trolls in flag games. Its just no fun.

Siege or numbers of pugs will not do it without having at least a coordinating group to chain negates for those to do damage at the right time. Otherwise; best to move on, which is why these groups like to farm in a home keep to where they usually have to be engaged

NBrookus · November 2019

mocap wrote: »

- didn't kill everything on site, they actually "chu chu train" near me without any attention. So i think they mostly use attacks based on direction of movement. More like a death train, rather than ball.

They are looking for stacks to kill. Skills like proxy det and gear like vicious death need groups of players to be strong. Stay away from the stack and the path of destruction, and don't chase them into chokes, and you are probably fine. (Until they decide to target you personally out of love.

)

Individual members of a ball group are reliant on the team to provide everything they need; by themselves they are squishy and no threat. As they start losing individuals, if they can't get rezzes, camps or necro rez ults the dominoes start to fall.

1vX and small scale don't function that way. 1vX and small scale builds must be totally self reliant, but small scale groups generally know how to peel and support one another.

katorga · November 2019

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

Note : Overperforming relative to previous patches

Players working together always "over performs". That is the incentive to actually MMO in an MMO rather than treat it as a single player online game.