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[Discussion]Upgrade engine and graphic ?
lelink88
✭✭✭
As we know so far, Half Life Alyx will release next year with engine Havok 2. Are there any change that ESO will have an upgrade to Havok 2 with better graphic ?
5
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jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well for starters, ESO isn't using Havok as a game engine. Best guess, it's using a heavily modified Hero Engine, as it did used to be on the standard Hero Engine (logo is still in the splash screens), and it's using Havok as its physics engine.
Don't know whether Havok 2 includes a more complete engine suite, as Havok is just a middleware engine suite that provides modules for physics simulation, animation, and AI behaviour. But that's what ESO likely uses Havok for -- physics, animation, AI behaviour.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^^^
Also, Valve is releasing a new game. Not a makeover of an old game.
What ESO needs is optimization. It needs to run smoother. Graphics themselves are fine. Actually pretty good for an MMORPG of todays times considering two of the top competitors are still using very cartoonish graphics.12 -
russelmmendoza✭✭✭✭✭
✭Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I play on potato pc.
I have a dial up net.
And I live in a cave.
In some mountain village.
Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!6 -
KillsAllElves✭✭✭✭✭As we know so far, Half Life Alyx will release next year with engine Havok 2. Are there any change that ESO will have an upgrade to Havok 2 with better graphic ?
Half life alyx is a virtual reality shooter game that will use the new havok 2 physics engine, a game not comparable to an MMO like E$O.
Half life alyx is very small compared to E$O, this means the smaller game can run a higher polygon count for textures and shading.
There has to be a balance in terms graphics and game sizing, its either one or the other. You cant have both currently. For what its worth E$O graphics look good and arent cartoonish, character rig animations are smooth and are not clunky compared to other MMO games.
Game performance isnt always effected by the engine. The amount of updates/content, rank systems like Champion Points, inactive accounts in guild/clan rosters, bank/guild or clan banks space, character inventory/space, flying NPCs, cloth and cloth physics such as flags, banners and specific character armor are the causes of a games performance. The more content that is programmed the more calculations has to be made- the more performance suffers.
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Havok is NOT a game engine.
Even if it were, switching game engines pretty much means starting over from scratch. Ask the guys who did Duke Nukem Forever what a grand old time that is. So, you know, the chances of ZoS switching engines on us is about the same as hitting the jackpot in the lottery for the second time while being simultaneously hit by a meteor and struck by lightning."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭I acknowledge that MMOs, especially ones that have been on the market a while, are going to go for efficiency over realism. I mean, just look at how enemies "stick" to a spot when you kill them (a la Morrowind) instead of rag-dolling (a la Oblivion and Skyrim).
While it WOULD be nice to see an upgrade to the server-side and client-side physics, that can create some pretty big development hurdles. You know how there are invisible walls to keep players in-bounds? Imagine stacking a bunch of random things to circumvent that. (OOB is a weird place to be -- trust me, I've been there)
Heck, I would love to be able to dive and explore underwater, but alas...
Quality-of-life/immersion options, like Havok Cloth, might be nice to see locally, but they can still be a bit glitchy and would require some pretty extensive testing from the art/animation departments. And could bump up system requirements. Still, at least we'd have capes/cloaks.
If you're JUST looking for graphic upgrades, that can be done at any time without a major engine overhaul -- just a change in the minimum requirements, since the model complexity and render costs would be higher. To that end, I'd rather see a clean-up of current art (consistent sizing of clothing meshes compared to the base body meshes, consistent texture resolutions, cleaning up the rushed stuff) than a complete artwork overhaul.
All in all, though, I'd prefer to see the devteam focus on their current plans as outlined on their site instead of ripping out and replacing core engine components.██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.4 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Havok is NOT a game engine.
Even if it were, switching game engines pretty much means starting over from scratch. Ask the guys who did Duke Nukem Forever what a grand old time that is. So, you know, the chances of ZoS switching engines on us is about the same as hitting the jackpot in the lottery for the second time while being simultaneously hit by a meteor and struck by lightning.
Making a new game from scratch would be the more sensible approach obviously.Besides ESO's textures are so bad even at native 4K it doesn't look very good. So why bother really?What is even there to save? If they want a new engine they might aswell make a new game, new textures, new everything. Also ESO is still making money, why would they want to kill it?
When you play a modern game like destiny 2 you really understand just how much of a lost cause an ''engine upgrade'' is. Even suggesting it is cringeworthy actually.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on November 24, 2019 5:20AM0 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Source is Half Life's graphics engine. Havok is a physics engine, which ESO already uses. If you want a prettier ESO, they'd need to replace the Hero engine they use, and that would be a huge effort.
Might as well just start developing ESO 2.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!0 -
Lady_Linux✭✭✭✭✭what they should do is build the game on vulkan and ditch dx nonsense... directx should go the way of flash, which is eol in december.
VULKAN< VULKAN< VULKAN~ ad nauseum somethng or otherI simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.
BTW, I use arch too0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lady_Linux wrote: »what they should do is build the game on vulkan and ditch dx nonsense... directx should go the way of flash, which is eol in december.
VULKAN< VULKAN< VULKAN~ ad nauseum somethng or other
I do not think that is a simple task. As such existing games are not likely to adopt Vulcan regardless of it's performance unless they are already planning an overhaul.0 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS does not go back and redo released materials in TESO. The Assets from the beginning are 6 to 9 years old. Since that time coding, polygons and pixel approach has changed greatly. Images are sharper and in some cases may even be reduced in resources than those done early on. Visually there is a noticeable different.
I believe there would be an improvement to the game to go through and standardize graphics and objects. Bring in the fresh, sharper imaging throughout. Housing has shown us how similar objects vary in size as they had not used a standardization.1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The game looks fine. The graphics don't need work, the servers & netcode do.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on November 24, 2019 3:40PM3 -
twev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭russelmmendoza wrote: »Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I play on potato pc.
I have a dial up net.
And I live in a cave.
In some mountain village.
Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Soooo....
'Your' potato is the reason the rest of the world can't have a better high performance game?
Gotcha.
Edited by twev on November 24, 2019 4:10PMThe problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.0 -
twev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Source is Half Life's graphics engine. Havok is a physics engine, which ESO already uses. If you want a prettier ESO, they'd need to replace the Hero engine they use, and that would be a huge effort.
Might as well just start developing ESO 2.
I see little reason to believe the ESO (original) franchise is dead or dying.
It's a perfectly good game that ought to have it's engine rewritten for optimization and better net-code, to put the players database back into for continued play.
We keep getting 'Free Week' playthroughs where new players flood into the servers, get a look at the poor performance and disconnects with a tonne of lag and stuff that doesn't work, and then they flee, knowing the game isn't worth buying/subbing.
A new engine and optimization would retain a lot of vets, and keep many of those lookey-lous who walk away after a look at the crap workings of the existing game now.Edited by twev on November 24, 2019 4:21PMThe problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.0 -
KillsAllElves✭✭✭✭✭Source is Half Life's graphics engine. Havok is a physics engine, which ESO already uses. If you want a prettier ESO, they'd need to replace the Hero engine they use, and that would be a huge effort.
Might as well just start developing ESO 2.
I see little reason to believe the ESO (original) franchise is dead or dying.
It's a perfectly good game that ought to have it's engine rewritten for optimization and better net-code, to put the players database back into for continued play.
We keep getting 'Free Week' playthroughs where new players flood into the servers, get a look at the poor performance and disconnects with a tonne of lag and stuff that doesn't work, and then they flee, knowing the game isn't worth buying/subbing.
A new engine and optimization would retain a lot of vets, and keep many of those lookey-lous who walk away after a look at the crap workings of the existing game now.
A new engine for E$OH is not easy nor simple. This is a several year task of rewritting or adding code for a new engine. A new engine hierarchy, Then all art work would have to be recreated. Character rigging and animations would either be moved over or new character rigging and animations would be made.
a new engine is cost effective for smaller games like shooters etc etc, (but then players move onto the newest release)... Not for a game the size of E$OH.
ZO$ programmers "might" be. Able to upgrade the current hero engine but most problems we experience isnt coming from the currently used engine.Edited by KillsAllElves on November 25, 2019 12:30AM1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
Which unreal engine You're talking about. Unreal engine 4 was released in 2014.0 -
nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
Which unreal engine You're talking about. Unreal engine 4 was released in 2014.
Ahh yes. Add a number and it suddenly is a new engine. It's totally not like going from Creation Engine 1.0 to Creation Engine 2.0.
Unreal is older than CE/Gamebryo. People just like facts that only support their world view.Edited by nafensoriel on November 25, 2019 6:49AM0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Salix_alba wrote: »I thought vulkan was more for vr? I mean nms switched to it for that didn't they?
Vulkan is a general graphics API, just like DirectX or OpenGL, it's just designed to have as little overhead as possible, and to put as much control in the hands of the developer as possible.
Working with Vulkan is an extreme pain in the ass, since even basic concepts such as "what is a texture" have to be designed by the developer from scratch (as opposed to being baked into the API), but it allows for an extreme level of control and optimisation, which goes hand-in-hand with VR, though it isn't limited to VR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdNoSB69PI
That demo was ran live on stage, using a Galaxy S7, and I'm pretty sure is available as a standalone Epic project in the UE4 marketplace. A big part of the reason why all that was possible, was Vulkan.
Between the low overhead of Vulkan, and the amount of control Vulkan gives developers, it allows developers to basically program the hardware in a much more direct fashion, which results in not only more performance, but cleaner implementations of effects.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »People just like facts that only support their world view.
Yes, I agree. For example, there's always someone that pops in on various forums (not just this one) firmly believing that a "new engine" or "better servers" are some kind of magic pill that will fix everything, and continues to believe it long after the costs and reasons why it won't work have been spelled out for them.
Still, I suppose it's a step up from blindly shouting "FIX THE GAME!" But only insomuch as it's a slightly more specific suggestion as to how and what to fix.Edited by Glurin on November 25, 2019 7:34AM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Source is Half Life's graphics engine. Havok is a physics engine, which ESO already uses. If you want a prettier ESO, they'd need to replace the Hero engine they use, and that would be a huge effort.
Might as well just start developing ESO 2.
I see little reason to believe the ESO (original) franchise is dead or dying.
It's a perfectly good game that ought to have it's engine rewritten for optimization and better net-code, to put the players database back into for continued play.
We keep getting 'Free Week' playthroughs where new players flood into the servers, get a look at the poor performance and disconnects with a tonne of lag and stuff that doesn't work, and then they flee, knowing the game isn't worth buying/subbing.
A new engine and optimization would retain a lot of vets, and keep many of those lookey-lous who walk away after a look at the crap workings of the existing game now.
I do not think the franchise is dying at all. Certainly not because of the engine for one game in that franchise. A game that until a few months ago was seeing increased numbers of players for several years running.0 -
twev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro